The real reason you should wear your seatbelt!

[CitizenBBN]

So in my example, when I suddenly reached for the glove box because the officer asked for insurance and registration the cop would have been justified in shooting me because I made a suspicious sudden move to open something that could have had a gun in it? I mean I did not tell the cop what I was doing, it was just a reaction I had when he asked the question.

No, but he would have been justified in taking a stronger defensive posture.

Nothing in this video justified the officer pulling that trigger. There were things this guy did that would have absolutely justified the officer being more prepared to fire than in a routine traffic stop.

As for the "nuances" of a traffic stop, keeping your hands visible for the officer is hardly a "nuance". It's so much a given in society that Bob and Tom made a joke of it. that only works if we all know that such a thing is a really dumb idea. If you don't think that's an issue you don't laugh.

I don't "blame" the victim either. never have. He did NOTHING to justify being SHOT. He did however do something that was absolutely "suspicious" and would have warranted a heightened response or preparedness by the officer. NOT shooting, but being more ready to defend himself.

We have to separate "blame" here, it isn't an absolute. The victim did contribute to the situation through his actions, that doesn't mean he's to blame and the officer isn't. It's not black and white, 0 or 1. Likewise the officer here did have more cause to act as he did than if he just walked up to someone having a sandwich and shot them. Doesn't mean he isn't guilty of wrongdoing, but obviously there are more gradations of this than "he's 100% to blame, he's 100% not to blame."

the officer fired without any clear indication of a weapon, that's his fault and he'll pay mightily for it. Thank goodness the victim is alive and will apparently be OK.

But this is not some "cop goes crazy and shoots innocent bystander" scenario either. The victim and officer both contributed to the eventual circumstances that led to that huge mistake of pulling the trigger. IT took them both doing things wrong to get to that point. Doesn't make the shooting OK, or the victim liable for anything at law, but I cannot say "he did nothing wrong", b/c he absolutely did something wrong, and it's black letter regulation.

[MTcatfan]

Okay I will give you that, so to me the victim is about 1% to blame and the officer is 99% to blame. I also agree that he did something that warranted an increase in the officers stress level, but that is all he did, He did nothing to elevate this traffic stop to the point where shots should be fired. I guess that is why I am not backing down, I see a guy, who as Doc said, IS ALREADY OUTSIDE OF HIS VEHICLE, rolled up on by a police officer, for what imho, is a very, very, very, suspect "seat belt violation". I mean really I guess that the cop saw the driver when he was pulling out of the parking lot he was in because the truck you see at the beginning of the video is NOT the vehicle that is pulled over. The vehicle that is pulled over is an SUV, like a Nissan Xterra, because if you look at the bottom right of the video you can see the wheel well of the vehicle, and the back door that goes around it. The reason I think it is an Xterra is because I used to own one and that back door and beginning of the wheel well looks exactly like that. So I just don't understand why the cop is already in an "offensive" mindset as soon as he pulls up on a stopped vehicle, where the driver has already had a chance to step out of the vehicle. If the officer isn't already in an "offensive" mindset, and is more closely following proper procedure, this never happens, as the cop waits 2 seconds to see if the drivers hands are object free, this never happens. That is why in the blame game, I definitely can't give the drive much blame.



There is another South Carolina traffic stop that made the news because a cop pulled over Sam Montgomery of the Cincy Bengals for doing 89 in a 55, and the cop got fired because he threatened to use a taser on a cooperating suspect. He was fired because he did not follow proper procedure. Well with that stop I actually have more sympathy for the cop because it is the middle of the night, he is by himself, and this hulk of a human gets out of the vehicle. So to me he had reason to be a little more "offensive" in his actions versus the cop in the original video.

Now Montgomery almost appears to be a bit uncooperative, but it is because he is not understanding the cop's instructions, and that leads to the taser comment, but Montgomery is not being aggressive or resisting in the least bit and I think that is why the cop gets fired. So look at this video:







So I guess to me another big issue I have with the shooting is time and place, and the officer's actions from the start just don't fit the time and place of the traffic stop, and they ignore the unusual nature of the stop happening after the driver has exited the vehicle. The Montgomery officer has more cause to be in an offensive position from the get go, due to time and place and size of the driver, and I am not sure that his firing is justified. So I am not against the police, I just expect them to react appropriately to time and place and type of situation. Again I probably blame the driver 1% and the cop 99%, in the Montgomery situation, but I have a lot more sympathy for the Montgomery officer than I do the original video officer.


Article where cop being fired is mentioned:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...tgomery-fired/

[Doc]

That's a really strained analogy.

I'm not aware of a single dress code manual or sign on a bar door that says you are liable for your own rape if you dress provocatively. I am aware of 50 state traffic manuals and numerous other state and federal documents, instructional manuals/videos, and guides that say you are to keep your hands visible at all times to an officer at a traffic stop.
not relevant as the man was already out of his car. I guess when the officer pulled up he should have jumped back in his truck and put his hands on the wheel. That way when the officer put 6 rounds in him he would likely have hit him in the head rather than the hip
He may also have violated the rules by stepping out of his vehicle, but I'm not sure if he was doing that naturally as he was stopped at a gas station, or if he got out in reaction to the officer's approach. But I'm betting most states tell you to not get out of your vehicle when stopped unless instructed. I know Kentucky does. That part is unclear from the video, but is another possible reason for the officer to be suspicious.
He did not violate anything. Clearly he was stopping prior to to officer pulling up. He was stopping at the store and getting out of his car as the office arrived. It wasn't the officer pulled him over and he got out of the truck. He was getting out of the truck when the officer arrived
Now this guy was in his view following the officer's instructions to get back into his vehicle, which is why I don't "blame" him, but it was no doubt a suspicious move as defined in every state. The miscommunication clearly is a factor here, but it still would have been wise to say "my license is in my car in my wallet, do you want me to get it or do you want to retrieve it?" yes, it would have been wise to do that. It also would have been wise to wear his seat belt. Additionally it would have been wise for the officer to yell "don't move" or "stop" or " slow down". There are about a hundred other smart thing that could have been done in hind site. Heck, he could have tazered him but he didnt

But the one that gets me is that saying the move was suspicious or a mistake necessarily somehow justifies the officer's actions. Of course it does not and no one here has taken that position. We have said that it a) was a mistake on his part, and b) would have justified the officer having his weapon ready, but certainly not pulling the trigger.
The officer was clearly wrong to open fire on this person, but that doesn't change the fact that the person did not follow the proper procedure for a traffic stop and made movements that would have likely made 99% of officers very nervous. Doesn't mean it's his fault for being shot, his actions do NOT justify having been shot, but had he come back up looking at an officer with a drawn or handed weapon I wouldn't have blamed the officer.what most are objecting to is placing blame on the victim. Nobody said it was a justified shooting but I bristle at the idea that the guy who was shot is blamed even slightly

.

[MTcatfan]

Also more on my mentioning that the officer is NOT pulling over the truck at the beginning of the video, the truck at the beginning is a TWO DOOR truck, and the vehicle the officer pulls up on in the video is clearly a 4 door vehicle. Also if you look closely the wheel wells on the truck are not accented with anything, and the vehicle the officer pulls up on the wheel wells are lined with black accents. I ascertain that the vehicle that is pulled over is a SUV, probably a Nissan Xterra, as the back door of an Xterra matches the back door of the vehicle in the video. So again I wonder at what point the officer saw that this guy had no seat belts on, because that vehicle never passes in front of the video camera of the police car. I realized it could have been an observation from the side of the vehicle, but to me even the pretense of the traffic stop is a bit suspect in this case.

[suncat05]

On a traffic stop, the officer's approach and initial contact with the citizen most times sets the stage for the rest of any interactions for the remainder of the contact.

Whenever I do a traffic stop, I ALWAYS approach the vehicle using all due caution. And when I make actual verbal/visual contact with the driver I always try to put them at ease, even if they may be a little upset. Most traffic stops are for minor infractions. Most, but not all. And there can be numerous mitigating circumstances surrounding a traffic stop. It can be simple, or it can get complex.........in the blink of an eye. But an officer's initial contact with the citizen will usually set the stage for how it proceeds, and ends.
I haven't written a citation in years. Since 2009. But I have done a few traffic stops when necessary, it ain't rocket science. I try to avoid writing citations. Look, you can tell a citizen that they have a tail light out, please get it fixed. If I see you again and you haven't fixed it, then I'll write you a citation. That's it. You're free to go.
Now, a felony traffic stop is another creature. There's going to be multiple officers involved, there's going to be drawn guns, and there will be loud, clear, simple commands given. Comply, and we'll sort everything out and decide if you go to jail or not. Don't comply, and resist, or try to flee, and the chances of the police becoming aggressive/violent increases dramatically. But we are going to restore order, one way or another. That's our job, to protect the public and keep the peace. And I am going to do my job. But my hope is that you get to go home okay, and that I get to go home okay. That's the goal, everybody gets to go home the same way they left there.

[Darrell KSR]

I'd just rather be alive than right. Common sense goes a long way. The video I provided should show that police officers are in danger even when we think they are not. Why put yourself in that position?

[CitizenBBN]

It was suspicious. I think most would agree. There is a difference between acting or doing something suspicious and being at fault/to blame.

As for the drivers manual, the driver was getting out of the car. He wasn't pulled over in the sense of it was a traffic stop. He stopped at the convenient store and was exiting his car when the officer drove up. I suspect he was unaware he was getting stopped as he was exiting the car so "hands on the wheel" does not come into play


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That's why I said I need to see more but I don't think he got out of the car as a traffic stop situation but was getting out of the car and the officer then approached. Assuming that's the case I don't think there's anything at all wrong there on his part.

I don't "blame" him, clearly the fault lies with the officer pulling the trigger without a known threat. But the victim did, through unintentional actions, contribute to the circumstances that created the situation. Maybe if we did it in math he's 5% culpable for his actions, the officer 95%.

IMO there has to be some breakdown that is non-zero for him b/c the circumstance where the officer is 100% to blame, shooting a guy standing on the street corner eating a sandwich, is where clearly the victim is 100% innocent of anything. In that case the officer had no reason to feel threatened, in this case he had a reason to have heightened concern, so the contribution of the victim must be non-zero.

None of that excuses the act of shooting the guy when he didn't have a weapon. But the victim did take actions that contributed to the events that got us there, actions he should not have taken. Doesn't mean I "blame" him, but he does have some amount of fault in it, albeit a small amount.

[CitizenBBN]

I realized it could have been an observation from the side of the vehicle, but to me even the pretense of the traffic stop is a bit suspect in this case.

I agree with this. I find stopping someone for a seatbelt suspect anyway, but in this case even more so. It looks like the guy is parked, doesn't really ever enter traffic, pulls up to a truck with a guy pulling into the gas station, gets out and starts asking for his license. No moving violation, no other issues than maybe not a seat belt that he could have maybe seen as the guy was pulling in.

hardly a good use of LEO resources IMO even if that's the case. I'd laugh if I got the license and registration routine for that sort of thing. So I agree it already looks like the guy was being a douche, then overreacts to what I think was something that should have put him on notice but certainly not justified shooting him.

[dan_bgblue]

It has been proven millions of times that the general public is plumb stupid, and even more stupid when confronted by situations outside their comfort zone. Officer made a bad judgement, and pulled the trigger. That is on him, and he should not have the chance to make that mistake again, ever. The general public made a stupid mistake, just like millions of others do every day, but should not have been shot for the mistake.

It amazes me every day that the general public is as stupid as they are, and I am sure LEOs will agree with me, that if the general public was not so stupid, their job would be much easier. The general public does not want to take responsibility for anything they do nor the ramifications of their actions. They live in a kind of la la land and walk around staring at their cell phone screens all day.

The officer was totally responsible for what happened as he made the decision to approach the general public and take him out of the comfort zone. Doing so led to the general public making a stupid mistake while out of his comfort zone, and it cost him his life.

[UKHistory]

I am not sure the cop should be fired for the comment but he should reprimanded. The taser comment is an example of where you give someone a toy they will want to find a way to use it.

89 in a 55 could be construed reckless driving. But I think getting his license and platess and then arresting would have been better. I actually don't speed 30 miles over the speed limit generally. But I would be terrified if the officer said stick your hands out. Thank goodness that man didn't get out of the car. He opened the door but at any height that is an awkward motion.

I think the commands would be a little confusing to me as well. The officer would not be physically frightened by me.

Okay I will give you that, so to me the victim is about 1% to blame and the officer is 99% to blame. I also agree that he did something that warranted an increase in the officers stress level, but that is all he did, He did nothing to elevate this traffic stop to the point where shots should be fired. I guess that is why I am not backing down, I see a guy, who as Doc said, IS ALREADY OUTSIDE OF HIS VEHICLE, rolled up on by a police officer, for what imho, is a very, very, very, suspect "seat belt violation". I mean really I guess that the cop saw the driver when he was pulling out of the parking lot he was in because the truck you see at the beginning of the video is NOT the vehicle that is pulled over. The vehicle that is pulled over is an SUV, like a Nissan Xterra, because if you look at the bottom right of the video you can see the wheel well of the vehicle, and the back door that goes around it. The reason I think it is an Xterra is because I used to own one and that back door and beginning of the wheel well looks exactly like that. So I just don't understand why the cop is already in an "offensive" mindset as soon as he pulls up on a stopped vehicle, where the driver has already had a chance to step out of the vehicle. If the officer isn't already in an "offensive" mindset, and is more closely following proper procedure, this never happens, as the cop waits 2 seconds to see if the drivers hands are object free, this never happens. That is why in the blame game, I definitely can't give the drive much blame.



There is another South Carolina traffic stop that made the news because a cop pulled over Sam Montgomery of the Cincy Bengals for doing 89 in a 55, and the cop got fired because he threatened to use a taser on a cooperating suspect. He was fired because he did not follow proper procedure. Well with that stop I actually have more sympathy for the cop because it is the middle of the night, he is by himself, and this hulk of a human gets out of the vehicle. So to me he had reason to be a little more "offensive" in his actions versus the cop in the original video.

Now Montgomery almost appears to be a bit uncooperative, but it is because he is not understanding the cop's instructions, and that leads to the taser comment, but Montgomery is not being aggressive or resisting in the least bit and I think that is why the cop gets fired. So look at this video:







So I guess to me another big issue I have with the shooting is time and place, and the officer's actions from the start just don't fit the time and place of the traffic stop, and they ignore the unusual nature of the stop happening after the driver has exited the vehicle. The Montgomery officer has more cause to be in an offensive position from the get go, due to time and place and size of the driver, and I am not sure that his firing is justified. So I am not against the police, I just expect them to react appropriately to time and place and type of situation. Again I probably blame the driver 1% and the cop 99%, in the Montgomery situation, but I have a lot more sympathy for the Montgomery officer than I do the original video officer.


Article where cop being fired is mentioned:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...tgomery-fired/

[suncat05]

I have had a department issued TASER for about 10-12 years now. I have only had to draw it twice, and fortunately did not have to use it. But I will if necessary. It's amazing how that little red laser light gets people's attention when they see it. Both people I put it on told me they didn't want to "ride the lightning", so things got civil again real quick.

[Doc]

I think the commands would be a little confusing to me as well. The officer would not be physically frightened by me.

A little confusing? How about a lot confusing! Again, you have a train professional dealing with a non trained nervous individual who is trying to process the commands. The officer is barking multiple commands rapid fire and expecting the guy to instantaneously process them, then when he gets confused acts like the guy is being non compliant. IMO a calmer approach by the officer would have likely led to a calmer and more compliant perpetrator. I'm not saying the officer should let his guard down or not keep his safety first but the rapid fire instructions is more than a nervous person can process.

[suncat05]

This! Thank you for making my point for me. As I have stated at least twice previously, better communication by both parties would probably have prevented this shooting from happening.