Need some gun/ammo help

[Darrell KSR]

My father in law gave my daughter, but really me, for now, a Smith and Wesson 38 special model 640. On the snub nose it says, ". 38 S. & W. SPL."

I am so confused by the ammo I am supposed to use with this. He gave her some hollow points Federal 38 SPL + P. Does that work? I know other concealed hammer S&W 38s say that on the barrel, but this one doesn't.

What ammo should I buy for it?

Is there a difference between 38, 38 special, and 38 special +p? Which one or ones work with this?

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[CitizenBBN]

Darrell, this is an EXCELLENT question. I see a lot of confusion over this caliber, and some of the loads will not fit and will damage if not destroy the gun.

There are actually TWO families of 38 caliber round, and they are NOT interchangeable, but "S&W" Or Smith and Wesson is used in BOTH, so it's very confusing.

Everyone knows the "38 special", and S&W has made 100s of revolver models for this round for more than a century. Here's the hitch: it's NOT the same as "38 S&W" but IS the same as the "38 S&W Special" or "38 S&W Spl". How's that for confusing

When the 38 was created, one was made by S&W, one by Colt. The original S&W 38 cal round is called "38 S&W" or "38 S&W Short". This is pre 1900 we're talking here, the first of them were actually black powder rounds (more on that in a minute). They then came out with a "38 S&W Long" to give it more power but same barrel sizes. These are one of the two groups, the "38 S&W".

Colt also came out with one, called "38 Colt", and then later "38 Long Colt". here's the weird part: when S&W came out with the "38 S&W Special" (or just "38 Special" or "38 Spl") they based it on the 38 Long Colt, NOT their own 38 S&W. They then came out with the 357 Magnum, a longer 38 Special, but obviously still in the family with the 38 Colt, NOT the 38 S&W. The last of the calibers to come out is the 38 Special +P. It stands for "plus pressure", and is the same exact size as the 38 Special but with a more powerful load.

So in Group 1 we have: 38 S&W, 38 S&W Long.

In Group 2 are: 38 Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38 Special (also called 38 S&W Special), 357 Magnum, 38 Special +P

Those two are NOT interchangeable at all.

Your gun is in Group 2 bc it says "Spl" on it, making it the 38 Special. I also know this b/c it's a 640 and they aren't chambered for the other round.

That's good news, 38 Spl is the most common of them all by far of course. Since it is not marked "+P" it is not recommended to shoot the +P loads in it, it can damage the gun b/c it wasn't built to take those pressures. it wont' even fit 357 Magnum length wise. Technically however you COULD shoot the 38 Colt and Long Colt in that gun,though I don't know why you would.

Group 2 goes like this: 357 Magnum >> 38 Spl. +P >> 38 Spl >> 38 Long Colt >> 38 Colt. If you have a 357 you can shoot any of those rounds in it, if you have a +P rated revolver you can shoot anything but 357, etc.

So that gun is safe to shoot any commercial "38 Special" ammo, should be fine. The 640 is a 1990s era creation so it will handle any modern 38 spl without problem. Re the "+P" load you got, a lot of people shoot +P loads in J-frames (that's the frame size of that gun in S&W speak) with no problems, esp. 1990s forward like the 640. S&W will tell you not to do it, the "experts" are mixed on the subject. It's bound to wear on the gun more but that doesnt' mean it will break it. personally I only shoot what a gun is rated for, even though with +P some argue it's not any hotter than older 38 Spl loads that were sold.

Some will shoot 38 Spl normal loads most of the time they practice but then for carry put in +P. That may be what he did. It's doubtful the gun will blow up or anything, but I just don't go down that road personally and I don't recommend it professionally.

I know it doesn't matter here, but I want to mention for those who may see this that the 38 S&W round is SO old that some revolvers made for it date back to when it used black powder, which is even lower pressure than the later smokeless powder (modern powder) loads, so they should only buy black powder loads. You can get them, small makers will still make those rounds b/c of cowboy action shooting and such. Just a FYI

[CitizenBBN]

I googled to see if the 640 was retroactively approved by S&W for +P and it wasn't. Some makers have said older guns can handle +P loads, not many b/c they just don't see a need to incur liability. Like I said a lot of S&W owners shoot +P without worrying about it, but technically the gun isn't rated for it.

The debate with +P is that some maintain that 70s era 38 Spl loads, esp. for LEOs were no higher pressure than the current "+P" load, and that the regular 38 Spl load is actually lower than what was shot in those older guns. I haven't delved into that debate much, those kinds of debates are so commonplace in the gun biz, but that's one of the theories behind shooting +P in a non rated older model 38. The other is just that they aren't THAT much higher pressure and S&W builds a tough gun that can handle it.

+P does have more kick to it too, you/she may prefer the 38 Spl. just for control and handling. J frames dont' have a whole lot of grip on them b/c of the size. I shoot 357 out of a 60 just fine, same size gun as the 640, but a lot of people think it's a bit much to control and keep on target for follow up shots. Just a lot of round for the size gun is all.

[CitizenBBN]

Here's a thread on the high road discussing the issue:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-442772.html

As you can see, folks are split on using +P. People have shot a lot of it through those guns, some shoot a little of it in them, some never do. Here's another where most come down in the middle, shooting some +P and carrying it +P, but not 100% of the time:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show....php?p=5172462


Do me a favor on it. Look inside the cylinder crane (the part that connects the cylinder to the frame) and all in that area to see if it says anything about +P. Seems some of them may have been stamped for it even though it wasn't on the barrel.

[suncat05]

I just looked at the S&W site and it said that the S&W Model 640 is chambered for .357 magnum/.38 special +P. That's what the site says. But if the barrel marking on yours says .38 S&W special, then I would just use regular .38 special ammo.
You can call Smith & Wesson directly and give them the serial number and they can tell you exactly when the gun was made and what ammo you can safely use in it.
I have a S&W Model 37 "J" frame, chambered for .38 special. It is an early model aluminum alloy handgun. I only carry .38 special ammo in it that IS NOT rated +P. It's not made for the higher pressures that come with the +P and magnum rated ammo. Yeah, you can probably put a few +P rounds through it and it probably won't hurt it, but it's always best to just use the properly rated ammo that is best suited for that handgun.
CBBN is also correct about some of those models having that stamping on the cylinder crane, so that may tell you what you can or cannot use as far as ammunition goes.

[Darrell KSR]

Cool, thanks. I may put these 20 rounds through it eventually, but will continue to buy the 38 special correct rounds for shooting generally. Much appreciated for the education.

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[suncat05]

If you intend to keep it around the home for self-defense purposes, you may want to hold onto those hollowpoint rounds. When you shoot it for practice, use either round nose lead or full metal jacket rounds. They're a lot more economical for practice than hollowpoint bullets. Hollowpoints are for when it really, really means something, which I hope you never have to endure.

[CitizenBBN]

Suncat, the 640 changed to a magnum frame in the 90s but that was some few years into 640 production. I looked in my S&W book and it says they went to that frame for the 640-1 in 1996. My book (Supica/Nahas S&W Catalog) says the 640 is rated for +P, doesn't distinguish the frame change at all. I know it is currently produced in either 357 or 38 +P, which goes with what you found on their site.

Darrell, I need you to open the crane up and look on the frame where the crane goes. it'll have the model number etched in it. see if it says "640" or has a "640-1" etc. on there. It'll tell us which frame it's using. If it's a 640-1 or later you can at least feel better about it handling +P. Still your call, but we'll know its the magnum frame and should handle it.

Like I said, some folks shoot all steel revolvers with +P from the 60s and 70s with no issue, just a matter of whether you want to draw inside the lines or not. The 640 has always been all steel, very rugged gun.

Like you I'd definitely load HPs for defense in a 38, regardless of caliber. I load them in my 60 in 357. Nothing says "don't do that" like a 357. Cool thing about 38 Spl ammo is you can get it with all kinds of variety. Jacketed, unjacketed, HP, wadcutters, snake loads (I KNOW you're fond of those), just a great all around serviceable caliber.

[Darrell KSR]

I need to get some of that snake shot for it. That would be a very good use for it, as it is nice and compact for those kind of walks. Is that difficult to find?

It's just the older 640, which makes sense. My father-in-law has had it for a good while. It is in great condition, but he's had his guns for many years, and just decided to start giving them away to family members. I have the 38+p hollow point in it now. I have four boxes of .38 special ammo I bought; just glad I bought the right thing just to shoot with it. I will keep the hollow points in it when I'm not just shooting.

[suncat05]

The snakeshot I buy is the CCI shotshell in .38 spl/.357 magnum load. It is 1/4 oz. of #9 shot, absolutely devastating to a snake. I have actually cut a snake in half and decapitated a few with this load. Now it's a bit pricey, at about $10 for 10 rounds(comes in a 10 round plastic case, white with red/white.blue markings)and you'll have to look for it. If you don't see it, ask for it. You can also buy it online through MidwayUSA, Brownell's, Natchez Shooter's Supply, the usual outlets. You might also be able to buy it at places like Gander Mountain, Bass Pro Shop, etc. And it shoots pretty clean, not much fouling at all. One thing about this particular round though, sometimes when the cylinder gets hot from shooting(even one round)the shotshell may inch outward and keep the cylinder from rotating to fire the next round. To solve this problem you can use some clear nail polish, painting the plastic part of the shotshell to the aluminum bullet casing. It works, kind of acts like an adhesive, but does not damage anything, just keeps the shotshell in place where it should be.
The aluminum casing is not reloadable, so once you've expended the ordnance it's done.

[Darrell KSR]

Thanks, Suncat..I will look for it. As little as I would fire it, that's not all that bad. Seems like your trek takes you in the path of those critters often, so it's more pricey when you have to use it as often as you do.

[CitizenBBN]

Suncat sees enough of them to justify a grenade launcher with snake shot. Guy's the reincarnation of St. Patrick.

[suncat05]

Suncat sees enough of them to justify a grenade launcher with snake shot. Guy's the reincarnation of St. Patrick.

[badrose]

I have to ask, is it universally legal to use snake shot? You know, just in case...

[suncat05]

I have to ask, is it universally legal to use snake shot? You know, just in case...

It is down here in south Florida!

[dan_bgblue]

If anyone is into reloading, this looks interesting and has great reviews.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/313...cial-box-of-50

btw I checked the more popular online ammo dealers and they are sold out of the .38 special snake shot

[CitizenBBN]

I have to ask, is it universally legal to use snake shot? You know, just in case...

I don't know of anywhere that it's banned. There are rules in various states about what you can and can't carry when hunting and such, they don't want people trying to hunt deer with 22 pistols, but I know of no restrictions on snake shot per se.

[Darrell KSR]

I don't know of anywhere that it's banned. There are rules in various states about what you can and can't carry when hunting and such, they don't want people trying to hunt deer with 22 pistols, but I know of no restrictions on snake shot per se.

I saw one place call it pest control load, which also made sense. I ran across a forum where some guy claimed he used snake shot as the first shot in his wife's revolver, with the idea that he was trying to save her from the guilt of shooting someone in self defense, and that the perp would run away after being hit with that. Now, that, to me, is the only reason why snake shot should be prohibited anywhere... to keep people from making those kind of ill-advised decisions.

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[suncat05]

Let him/her encounter an individual high on meth or PCP and have to shoot them in self defense. It may be their last action on this earth. A shot to the face might be the only thing to save them.
Snakeshot is just that. It is meant for use against small pests, as you saw advertised. Use against a human being would be an act of desperation or of last resort.
The guy's intent might be good, but the rationale behind it is flawed, and it also may mean that he doesn't understand the entire idea of wound ballistics and use of proper ammunition for self-defense purposes.

[Darrell KSR]

The guy needs to buy his wife some pepper spray and just live with that.

I'm not criticizing. I'm just thinking that would be more effective protection, and serve the dual purpose of allowing his/her conscience to be clear of whatever issues that may weigh on him. At least then you know what you're using and know the limitations.

[kritikalcat]

Many years ago I made this call to Citizen "Hi C. it's ... my wife just shot me in the head." Citizen "are you in the hospital or something?" Me, "uh, no, it was just snake shot."

[CitizenBBN]

Remember that well kritical. Hurt worse than the pellet gun she'd been using I'm sure, but I think it was still a sign that she still loved you. Would have used real ammunition if she were truly angry.

Pepper spray would be better than snake shot IMO. If she is really that hesitant to harm someone even in self defense she'd hesitate to use a firearm, making it no more than an expensive rock at best and at worst supplying the bad guy with a gun. Though it may have been mostly on the husband projecting that on her.