Voter Fraud Redux

Trump was dismissed for claiming he may have won the popular vote if not for possible illegal aliens and other non-eligible people voting in the election. Chicago prefers dead people most of the time.

That statement was widely chided, derided and dismissed. It would take MILLIONS of invalid votes for it to swing. the actual margin ended up being about 2.8 million, so you'd need about that many illegal votes for Hillary to flip it. No doubt a very high number, above most estimates of voter fraud.

But now Texas has data showing they had 95,000 non citizens on the rolls, with 58,000 having voted in at least 1 election. Texas has about 16 million registered voters, so that's 0.59375% of their voters on the rolls who were illegal, and 0.3625% of the actual votes against registered voters.

Well, if we take the 0.3625% against the roughly 129 million votes cast in the 2016 Presidential election, that's about 466,000 votes. If the nation is like Texas that means Hillary still wins of course, but it's a LOT more fraudulent votes than most would ever think existed.

Except, Texas already has one of the tougher voter registration laws in the nation. What about California, which has numerous counties far more generous in their reviews? What about states with same day registration?

It may be hard to get to 2.8 million, but it wouldn't be too hard to get to 1 million would it? It doesn't put 2.8 million utterly out of the realm of possibility, but it could easily be enough to make a difference in some areas or counties or Congressional districts couldn't it?

Anyway, an interesting number. I imagine if we included outright fraud, like these mail-in absentee ballots things California is using that let a single activist go around and "collect" ballots from thousands of people, with little if any verification, maybe 2.8 million isn't far off in total of all fraud. May not get that high, but I bet it gets high enough to shift some races here and there for sure.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tex...000-have-voted

Certainly worth looking into.

Yet I believe its 58,000 having voted in at least 1 election since 1996. The question is with the form of ID they presented which could indicate a percentage of the 90 plus thousand are non citizens. Most used a drivers license which is obtainable for non citizens and was. But, they were only non citizens at the time the drivers license was given, not necessarily when they registered to vote over that 22 year period.

"Those 95,000 registered voters are individuals who the state says have provided some form of documentation that showed they were not a citizen when they were obtaining a driver’s license or an ID card".

"Of those 95,000, 58,000 individuals cast a ballot in one or more elections from 1996 to 2018"

https://www.texastribune.org/2019/01...source=twitter

They have thirty days to respond to verify their citizenship or they will be taken off the voter rolls.
Im for voter rights in both instances. Voter suppression is also becoming a very popular tactic.
Both should be addressed in the courts.

We will know more in a few weeks about the scope of any voter fraud. As of now there is only that potential.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ille...leading-2019-1

One thing is for sure, it's worth investigating. My one little vote my not swing any elections, but it's my vote and I don't wont it being canceled out by someone that has no right to vote in our elections!

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Originally Posted by DanISSELisdaman

One thing is for sure, it's worth investigating. My one little vote my not swing any elections, but it's my vote and I don't wont it being canceled out by someone that has no right to vote in our elections!

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I certainly agree with that. And I also don't want anyone's vote suppressed. Both are dangerous left unchecked.

Every legal vote should count. And NO Illegal votes should be counted.

We should investigate any voter tampering, intimidation, double voting--all of it.

Agreed.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

Every legal vote should count. And NO Illegal votes should be counted.

We should investigate any voter tampering, intimidation, double voting--all of it.

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I will only add that there is a bit of skewing in Texas because of geography. Border states like TX, AZ, NM, CA, and FL are going to have a larger illegal immigrant population (both raw numbers and percentage of voters) than the middle America states, so it is a bit dangerous to use Texas' numbers are the standard. Of course there are other states like IL, NY and CA that are likely far worse due to the political environment where illegals are welcomed and encouraged.

That may be Doc, but with the states you’ve listed have populations that are as much as all the middle America states...and then some.

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Originally Posted by Doc

I will only add that there is a bit of skewing in Texas because of geography. Border states like TX, AZ, NM, CA, and FL are going to have a larger illegal immigrant population (both raw numbers and percentage of voters) than the middle America states, so it is a bit dangerous to use Texas' numbers are the standard. Of course there are other states like IL, NY and CA that are likely far worse due to the political environment where illegals are welcomed and encouraged.

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We have enclaves of Slovokians communities in Cleveland composed of illegal immigrants who have stayed long after their visas have expired. They operate with cash and below the radar. Eastern Europeans reside in a lot of places and go unnoticed in major cities.

Let's explore and investigate the issue objectively and uncover prosecute illegal voting, voting tampering (like what happened in NC and what ACORN seems to have done as well)

If we investigate it all, there will be hell to pay.

Yes there are efforts to "suppress" votes, most notably with gerrymandering, which is a time honored American tradition for both parties in charge. That's by far the biggest way to tip the scales on votes, by drawing the districts right.

And there are other efforts, but the problem is that what constitutes "suppression" is open to debate. Some argue that anything short of walking up that day with no ID and claiming to be a citizen eligible for that district is "suppression" of their vote. Requiring them to produce a valid government issued ID for example has been argued as repressing minority votes, as if minorities are somehow mentally so inferior they can't mange to get a government ID.

IMO that's not suppression. Any voter should be able to get on the rolls properly, in advance of an election, and simply plan ahead. Voting doesn't have to come with absolutely ZERO responsibilities. All rights should come with responsibilities.

Then there is a huge fraud loophole with absentee ballots, where "canvas" people go out door to door and sign people up to vote, and then collect their ballots and send them in as a third party. Oh yeah, that's totally on the up and up. I'm sure you don't have politically motivated activists out there for groups like ACORN "helping" to fill out those ballots correctly, or just filling them out themselves and sending piles of them back. Oh no, that's not happening at all.

California had races entirely swung by multiple percentage points by those ballots, after the polls closed. I'm sure some of those votes are legit, but many are not.

If you go after that you're accused of suppressing people's votes. No, it's just not reasonable to send political activists out to singularly oversee the voting process of individuals and then accept those ballots on faith.

No other accounting or internal control procedure in this entire country would accept what we accept for these absentee voting processes in many states. There is no way they are not rife with fraud. There are stories of people getting big stacks of empty ballots to be filled out and returned, and all in the hands of people acting politically. It's real, it's just not reported.

There are ways people try to repress votes, but there are as many or more ways people are trying to intentionally introduce the ability to defraud the system.

When I hear about the stumbling blocks to vote, I want to put myself in the persons place.

What types of ID does one need? How often is the DMV open? How close is the nearest DMV? what type of online options are available to register to vote. How many people in a given community have online access.

I don’t think a driver license is all that burdensome. But I want to better understand the issues.

Old Kobach failed to turn up much of any evidence of voter fraud in that investigation. Certainly not of the widespread variety.. If they had you can bet the president would never have shut it down.

And the excuse of excessive litigation used was clearly a front substituted in place of an admission they had failed in their endeavor imho.

Yet, the major problem was the information they were asking the states for. It was information the American public should not have supplied to any one party, nor some of it to any agency period. Especially in advance of any solid evidence of a wide spread problem. The commission was asking for voluminous information on voters, including names, addresses, dates of birth, political affiliations and the last four digits of Social Security numbers, along with voting history.
As well as records of felony convictions and whether voters are registered in other states.

Thankfully, many states will not release such personal information because that data can be used for identity theft and also can serve as a tool for political gerrymandering, voter suppression, and even harassment. Im sure even Republicans would agree that giving such information to a Democratic investigation is something they would fight against vehemently. And in fact, many did in this instance.


Still, any fraud or suppression should be dealt with in a bipartisan manor I agree, and anyone in or out of government from little old ladies all the way to the top, prosecuted severely for those actions. I firmly believe that

And that the political attacks on the sanctity of our election process should either provide tangible proof, or if such accusations persist absent it, they should be prosecuted also, in light of the current situation regarding tampering. And prosecuted severely as in loss of citizenship

All because America is the beacon for democracy around the world.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

When I hear about the stumbling blocks to vote, I want to put myself in the persons place.

What types of ID does one need? How often is the DMV open? How close is the nearest DMV? what type of online options are available to register to vote. How many people in a given community have online access.

I don’t think a driver license is all that burdensome. But I want to better understand the issues.

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I'm sure there are some hoops. But there are hoops for all of us, and I honestly don't see how having a valid ID of some kind is a huge impediment. To the contrary, you'd need one for so many things that they would be far bigger issues in one's life than having one to vote.

I presume to get various government assistance you need some kind of ID. You do to get into a courthouse or such, rent a car, pickup a package from Fedex or UPS, etc.

I know the poorest among us don't get a lot of overnight FedEx packages, but they do frequent various government offices in most cases, doesn't seem much to ask that they stop at one that can issue IDs, esp. since many require such IDs for doing paperwork, etc.

I'm willing to listen to the arguments, but there has to be some kind of weight given to issues that create the potential for fraud, and it seems right now they are often dismissed. You can't introduce 100 fraudulent votes into the system just to capture 1 valid vote, b/c you're then invalidating other valid votes, and that's suppression too.

for various reasons it seems as a nation we are in need of everyone having a valid ID of some kind. For security, policing, preventing government and private fraud, dealing with identity theft, etc. I think it's reasonable to say we've reached a point everyone in the US needs a Social security number and a valid ID. We can debate how much info the government keeps on us, but it seems we need something so authorities can do their job, and even private companies.

If a person does not want to make the effort to acquire a legitimate identification card then they can live off the grid and not vote, not sign up for federal and state assistance for food and housing, not sign up for a free cell phone, not walk into any not for profit hospital or local clinic and get free health care, etc, you know, all the things they came to America for in the first place.

Geographical voter fraud is far more widespread than any other. Voting in a different precinct to affect a close race. Happens all over. Busing in the homeless to vote in a close race. Busing in students who all seem to live in one precinct and when the letters go out to keep them on the rolls they all come back “not at this address”.

You need an ID to say where you live. Otherwise why have precincts, cities, counties, states, etc?

On Feb. 7, Whitley had to publicly answer questions about that list before the Senate Committee on Nominations.

"We know for certain today that that list was wrong, don't we," asked State Senator Kirk Watson (D-Austin).

"I've heard that reported, Senator," Whitley replied.

The list he sent to counties across the state is in question because it turns out tens of thousands of the people on the list are citizens.

The list was built using names from the Texas Department of Public Safety of people who said they were not citizens when they got a driver's license. But what the list failed to take into account is thousands of those people were later naturalized.

Whitley maintained he thought the data was correct and is limited in what he can do.

"The Secretary of State's Office has no investigative or prosecutorial authority," Whitley explained. "That's why it was important to me to get the data into the hands of the counties that do have that investigative authority."

"Why then was it immediately necessary to refer it to a law enforcement agency," Watson asked.

"I have a voter registration card and a driver's license. Could my name get on that list," questioned State Senator Kel Seliger (R-Amarillo).

"I don't know, Senator," Whitley answered.

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/po...6-9c94989cd7fa

Looking more and more like another, possibly coordinated attack on our election system to me. Now I am for the right thing being done, but any American should be against those who seek to intentionally damage the integrity of the American system of government.
This appointed official should be held to the highest of standards..and he appears to have fell well short...unless he was just following orders.

What is really sad is, the damage it (grossly inflated numbers) was intended to do is already done. Sow the seeds of discord and mistrust for political gain and to not further, but undermine "democracy around the world".
A word which for many is becoming a dirty word.

If it quacks like a duck..