National emergency Declared

Well the President has declared the border a national emergency. A crisis so severe and crippling that we are nearly 730 days or so into his presidency befor his action

On the heels of a calamitous 35 day government shutdown the president abuses his executive power by attempting to circumvent the Congress and it’s powering the purse.

From the Patriot Act to Obama’s over reach with executive orders this president is violating the Constitution with elected Republican representatives goose stepping behind him.

God save America from Trump

God save America from those who will follow him over a cliff ending the the great experiment of American democracy.

Well, the precedent is in the offing for gun control now and I’m not happy to see this.
However, he has a point in the border issue. The flow of undocs and drugs (fentanyl and heroin) getting across the border is hurting the country. To state otherwise (as many on Capitol Hill have) is just posturing political stances.
I’d be curious to see what would happen if assembling and free speech created an “emergency” and martial law would be issued due to said emergency......only time will tell...

It is a horrific precedent because some far more left than I would take our guns

Some would use it to nationalize oil or the banks or who knows

The best argument which is not being made is that “x amount of drugs are confiscated at ports of entry. We estimate that y amounts gets through the ports.” And you say we estimate this amount or we don’t how much gets through ours weak border

If it really was an emergency you don’t wait 35 days. You don’t wait two years.

Strengthening the border is important. Reducing crime from illegal aliens is important.

Do it through the constitutional process

. That jackals tuenes down 20 billion in exchange of letting DACA recipients stay.

Not 5 billion. 20 billion.

That is a win. So he is incompetent but he also wants to be a dictator and he is sewing the seeds for himself or an even more horrible person when his worthless orange ass is gone.

As for the left using it, it was only a matter of time before they tried it anyway. Its not like the democrats didn't do this type of stuff with congress and changing the rules under Harry Reid to get their way. And its not like Obama didn't use executive orders to by pass congress. So now the GOP/Trump uses it and its Armageddon. Only difference is the right did it FIRST this time.

However this will be struck down by the lower courts AND the SCOTUS so the left and right need not worry. IMO the White House knows this. Its all about Trump being able to say he did the max effort AND using that in 2020 to regain the majority in the House and Senate because the cry will be the obstruction from the left prevented the most cost effective national security measure to be used.

I’d agree to a point. However, this discussion has been in play since Reagan gave amnesty to the illegals already here with the promise that the border would be secured...and 35 years later here we are....

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

It is a horrific precedent because some far more left than I would take our guns

Some would use it to nationalize oil or the banks or who knows

The best argument which is not being made is that “x amount of drugs are confiscated at ports of entry. We estimate that y amounts gets through the ports.” And you say we estimate this amount or we don’t how much gets through ours weak border

If it really was an emergency you don’t wait 35 days. You don’t wait two years.

Strengthening the border is important. Reducing crime from illegal aliens is important.

Do it through the constitutional process

. That jackals tuenes down 20 billion in exchange of letting DACA recipients stay.

Not 5 billion. 20 billion.

That is a win. So he is incompetent but he also wants to be a dictator and he is sewing the seeds for himself or an even more horrible person when his worthless orange ass is gone.

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Describing this policy as A national emergency is far more dangerous and a much more significant power grab than executive orders.

While many underhanded things done by trump or McConnell are quickly discounted because a Democrat did something similar first, it is trump who has by this action looked to truly circumvent the Constitution and move us to a dictatorship.

But that said this type of maneuver is wrong from either party. I took an oath to defend the Constituon against enemies foreign or domestic. Domest includes scoundrels from any or no American party

The problem with that argument is Reagan had gotten the promise from the left to fix this issue 35 years ago...and yet here we are now. So politicians are dishonest no shock there. At some point you have to do your job (Republican or Democrat) and that isn’t happening. Not with Obama and The ACA and now this.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

It is a horrific precedent because some far more left than I would take our guns

Some would use it to nationalize oil or the banks or who knows

The best argument which is not being made is that “x amount of drugs are confiscated at ports of entry. We estimate that y amounts gets through the ports.” And you say we estimate this amount or we don’t how much gets through ours weak border

If it really was an emergency you don’t wait 35 days. You don’t wait two years.

Strengthening the border is important. Reducing crime from illegal aliens is important.

Do it through the constitutional process

. That jackals tuenes down 20 billion in exchange of letting DACA recipients stay.

Not 5 billion. 20 billion.

That is a win. So he is incompetent but he also wants to be a dictator and he is sewing the seeds for himself or an even more horrible person when his worthless orange ass is gone.

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Yeah, I knew this might get some attention.

Individual liberty (not democracy, two very different things) won't die with a bang, but with, to borrow Star Wars, thunderous applause. And it won't be from the Right, but from the Left. Not b/c those on the Right are so much more moral in some way, but b/c the main media and academia will all go along with it and b/c it will be for good and noble reasons like "income equality" or "social justice", as if anyone ever founding this nation did it so we could all have the same income.

This will now go to the courts, Trump will be seen as fighting the good fight win or lose, and both sides get what they want to set up for the 2020 election fight. The Dems wanted to stand up to Trump and have him make this move, and he wanted it as well for his side.

No real surprises here as both parties position for what they think is their best optics for the election. The Dems are going far far left like there's no tomorrow, and TRump wants to be seen as fighting for these issues like a maverick.

The outcome was all but inevitable, and one both sides wanted. The only sticking issue was how both sides could compromise and keep the government open without looking like they sold out to their base.

This is politics as usual, just like it was for Obama with DACA, and not the end of democracy.

And "democracy" won't die in the US. What will die is individual liberty and that is not going to be thanks to anything Trump has done. He doesn't have anything to do with those forces.

If we lose individual liberty then there is no true democracy.

The left is intrusive. It’s extreme Elements are antithesis to what is great about America.

But the far right is not better by any means

Trumps use of this measure and the inevitable imminent domain actions that would take place if this goes forward. Is an attack on personal liberty too. Asi is the civil forfeiture so fully embraced by trump and sessions.

Personal liberty is under siege. From the left and right. I see Trump as the greater danger right now. But extreme views are our enemy.

I knew it wouldn’t be long before it was suggested.....

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pel...dministrations

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Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof

I knew it wouldn’t be long before it was suggested.....

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pel...dministrations

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except there is a Constitution Amendment that specifically address and permits gun possession by citizens. Trump, or any president can't declare a National Emergency to say stop an election or alter the constitution. In fact the Constitution lays the defense on the feet of the.President, and he has decided what is the best means to defend our border. Lets be honest....Obama did the same with DOCA. He used his powers to bypass congress...his magic pen. Dems are just upset because he is using the same tactic they used. Trump's won't work, but Pelosi is just a windbag, and ANY democrat who ever complains about Trump being childish and petulant will have zero credibility unless they throw similar labels at her and Chuck Schumer

Executive orders as much as they can be abused are no so a direct violation of the Constitution as this national emergency which violates article I.

Both are bad. This takes us down a dangerous road.

Equating what Trump does to want Obama or anyone else did gets tiresome.

I am not defending Barry and he is safely out of office. Trump however is dangerously residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

As for Trumps next bold step, watch him challenge a close election or declare one that he loses as null and void.

Declaring a national emergency in this context is a gross abuse of executive authority.

I am watching and waiting to see what he will do next.

And I wait and watch how others will excuse it.

DACA was absolutely as much of a violation of Constitutional separation of powers as is this national emergency. If anything Congress did at least pass a statute to transfer this national emergency power to the POTUS, they never passed a law transferring immigration policy to POTUS. that passage of powers was unconstitutional, but Congress does that now as a matter of course b/c they can't be troubled to read their own legislation.

The reason for the comparison is b/c it provides perspective that this isn't a) all that unusual for Presidents to at least try, and b) it isn't the end of the world.

There's no convincing those who think Trump is plotting the overthrow of America. The problem is IMO that level of reaction is dangerous, it's what drives the FBI to think it's OK to wiretap a President without any more cause than they are convinced like you that he's just somehow a danger.

It helps people justify even more dangerous actions in response to that perceived threat, and that will be what causes any damage. Not anything Trump is doing, which will like everything else wind its way through the court system (and he's yet to not respect any decision of those courts, not once in years), but the response that leads people to illegal warrants, wiretaps and borderline coups.

So far Trump has done nothing even close to radical as President, including this move. It will spend months upon months in court, and set up the next election race, and that's about all that will happen. that's all he expects to happen.

He didn't do this b/c he's plotting a revolution. He did it b/c its' good politics for his base, and the Democrats wanted him to do it b/c it's good politics for their base. It's politics as usual in the end, and the law itself will end up determined by SCOTUS, not Trump or Pelosi.

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

you just read it so Im not going to repeat it.

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The reason I compare the two (DACA and Trumps Emergency) is to illustrate the hypocrisy shown by the left in this case. No need to worry about previous end runs around congress, only evil Trump's. Of course the riggt accused Obama of governmental overthrow so its not above them, however there are numerous members of the GOP who have voiced objections to Trumps move..unlike the democrats who basically fall lock step behind Nancy and Chuck ( unless you are Joe Mansion).

If Trumps move does not survive a court challenge, so be it. If it does then great. As the DULY ELECTED President, it is his Constitutional obligation to defend this nation. Obama had the same charge, and in my opinion did a sh!tty job doing it. Does not mean I believe or would have been happy with the GOP acting like babies to inhibit him just to be pricks. I stated as much. It one thing to disagree with policies but work to find common goals and solution, its another when your sole purpose it to block a agenda regardless of what the agenda is based on who is President

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

Executive orders as much as they can be abused are no so a direct violation of the Constitution as this national emergency which violates article I.

Both are bad. This takes us down a dangerous road.

Equating what Trump does to want Obama or anyone else did gets tiresome.

I am not defending Barry and he is safely out of office. Trump however is dangerously residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

As for Trumps next bold step, watch him challenge a close election or declare one that he loses as null and void.

Declaring a national emergency in this context is a gross abuse of executive authority.

I am watching and waiting to see what he will do next.

And I wait and watch how others will excuse it.

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Well said.

I'll bet anyone any amount they want that Trump does not try to seize power in some way. Challenging an election? Well there are legal means for doing that arent' there? Didn't Hillary, after losing her mind of Trump saying he might, in fact come really close to it herself? Don't we have election challenges and recounts all the time?

Gore and Bush fought a pitched attorney war in Florida for the Presidency all the way to SCOTUS. We're still here.

I'm not excusing it. I'm explaining it. It's politics. Doesn't everyone see this is nothing more than theater for the masses? Electronic soma, where both sides posture and bluster about how the other is some kind of pure evil, trying to get their supporters to the polls by telling them this is the election that will end life as they know it if they don't show up. They don't mention it's the 40th such election in a row.

Trump said when he did it the thing was going to court. that's a heck of a lot more of a nod to the balance of powers than Obama with DACA, yet we survived that, but this is somehow a glimpse behind the curtail of his master plan for an overthrow of the American system of government.

I urge people to step back and see how this kind of thinking is what is feeding the extremism we then turn around and criticize. While I disagreed with every part of what Obama envisioned for America he wasn't a Muslim agent. While you may disagree with everything Trump wants for America it doesn't make him a wannabe fascist dictator scheming to overthrow our constitution.

The Right used that to flame the fans of their base, now the Left does the same thing. If we all stop believing them and responding to their over the top rhetoric,it will die down as it won't be working for them politically.

Its Hillaryarious (pun intended) that the only people trying to invalidate an election sit on THE LEFT of the aisle. From Nov 9, 2016, the Democrats have been using every means at their disposal to invalidate the election yet its Trump who is scheming to overthrow. He was asked during the campaign if he would accept the results and was mocked for hesitating and not blindly acquiescing, yet its the democrats who have plotted the invalidation. How special! Yet the assertion is that.someday Trump will will use extraordinary means to wrestle power for himself. God, the hypocrisy is so incredible its beyond belief. One side is actually attempting to do it, and its accepted because people.don't like Trump personally despite him being duly and properly elected

Agreed Doc.

I'd say using DNC funded oppo research to get illegal FISA warrants, starting FBI investigations with complete disregard for FBI procedures, discussing "insurance policies" and "we wont' let him" in official communications, etc. is far more undermining of our Constitution and democratic process than Trump making proclamations that then spend years tied up in the court system.

Trump has obeyed every federal judicial decree but he's clearly a threat to the very fabric of our nation.

But a handful of unelected career bureaucrats with deep overlapping political ties operate without oversight, in fact in outright contempt of oversight of Congress and POTUS, destroy records of their activities, and violate both laws and their own regulations, and that's just dandy.

Beats all I've ever seen to tell you the truth. And that's why it's all just politics. If Trump were "their" guy, spouting open borders and metoo, they would think his actions are wonderful. It's only b/c he's proposing reduced regulations, conservative justices and stopping the illegal immigration that they hope makes them a permanent voting majority down the line that they suddenly think he's Hitler in training wheels.

That doesn't include History and others on here, who I disagree with but who I do NOT think engage in that kind of hypocrisy and who I respect because they bring an honest and fair-minded opinion as we should all strive to do here, but the mass media and "influencers" of Hollywood etc. Their bias and hypocrisy is as rank as anything I've ever seen on the national stage.

If the same standard was held to both sides, I'd would have no complaints. None what so ever. I have been critical of Trump, as have you. Just pisses me off that Trump is undermining the sanctity of the constitution while the left has actively been undermining it for 2 years, and not a peep about it. We have the FBI having meetings about secretly wire tapping the POTUS??? Using a RUSSIAN FUNDED dossier to secure a FISA warrant? And it Trump who is in Russia's pocket and attempting to end run the constitution.

And I get people who dislike Trump. I really do. I don't like all he does. I don't like everything any president does. I just don't get the he is going to usurp the constitution to make himself ruler. Folks said the same about Obama and I thought that idiotic too

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Originally Posted by Doc

If the same standard was held to both sides, I'd would have no complaints. None what so ever. I have been critical of Trump, as have you. Just pisses me off that Trump is undermining the sanctity of the constitution while the left has actively been undermining it for 2 years, and not a peep about it. We have the FBI having meetings about secretly wire tapping the POTUS??? Using a RUSSIAN FUNDED dossier to secure a FISA warrant? And it Trump who is in Russia's pocket and attempting to end run the constitution.

And I get people who dislike Trump. I really do. I don't like all he does. I don't like everything any president does. I just don't get the he is going to usurp the constitution to make himself ruler. Folks said the same about Obama and I thought that idiotic too

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Imo, you are responding to the extreme. I have hundreds of liberal friends, etc and follow plenty on twitter. I live in Southern California and am surrounded by political conversations every day. And the first I have heard of anyone trying to "invalidate Trump being elected" is on this board.

What do you believe the "Impeach Trump" movement is all about? What do you believe the invoking the 25th amendment is about?

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Imo, you are responding to the extreme. I have hundreds of liberal friends, etc and follow plenty on twitter. I live in Southern California and am surrounded by political conversations every day. And the first I have heard of anyone trying to "invalidate Trump being elected" is on this board.

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It isn't going to be liberals who are thinking they are invalidating the election. They no doubt think they are fighting the good fight, as everyone always thinks, right and left.

Most Trump voters I know, which is half the country, think this is all an attempt to invalidate the election.

As Doc said, when unelected bureaucrats talk about the President being unfit and being removed when he's so early in the Administration he hasn't actually DONE much of anything yet, when we find out the DNC funded the "research" used by the FBI to get warrants and one of the key people involved has a wife who works for the agency that got paid, when special counsels are appointed and nearly every one of his senior staff is a Democrat Party donor and several have been engaged by them, etc. and so on, those things sure look like an attempt to simply overturn the election b/c they don't like the outcome.

Put the treatment of Hillary and her staff on top of what is going on now with Trump and it paints a picture of massive political bias in the DOJ to those who voted for Trump.

Hillary black letter violated the law. Period. No way around it. Her staff was complicit. Yet they get immunity before they even get an interview, and people around Trump are being shaken down by being persecuted for unrelated crimes sometimes a decade old.

Had they leaned on Huma Abedin like they did on Manafort, what happens to Hillary? No, they thought Hillary would win and if they went after her they'd have their heads taken off when she got in office. There are texts and emails implying just that,and they're right, the Clinton's taste for retribution is well known.

I'm sure liberal folks don't see this as a massive anti-Trump, and more important anti-Trump voter, conspiracy. But Trump voters sure see it that way, an unholy alliance of liberal political power, a supportive media, and career bureaucrats who believe in government and believe they know more than those foolish gullible people who were suckered by Trump.

Trump did not rewrite any laws in the process of declaring the emergency, which would be the case for action on gun control and a myriad of other hypothetical emergency declarations being mentioned.

Over a decade ago Congress passed a border security act and approved border barriers as part of that act. They have since failed to properly fund that act, and as chief executive Trump directed funds that could legally be used for the project in order to fund it.

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Originally Posted by Doc

What do you believe the "Impeach Trump" movement is all about? What do you believe the invoking the 25th amendment is about?

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I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I am saying its the extreme. Most liberals I know don't want Trump impeached because they believe Pence would be worse.
Most just wanted control of Congress and can't wait for 2020. And hope Trump can't do more harm before then (in their opinion of course).
This Cohen stuff, etc is a political ruse imo. Its not meant to impeach Trump (as Fox keeps saying). Its meant to distract and to make him impotent as a leader. And more than that, its meant to damage him in 2020.

I think there are many democrats that feel that way. However, their voice is not being heard as the media has a love affair with AOC’s love of the absurd.....to the point they are starting to realize Trump is becoming empowered for 2020 because of it.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I am saying its the extreme. Most liberals I know don't want Trump impeached because they believe Pence would be worse.
Most just wanted control of Congress and can't wait for 2020. And hope Trump can't do more harm before then (in their opinion of course).
This Cohen stuff, etc is a political ruse imo. Its not meant to impeach Trump (as Fox keeps saying). Its meant to distract and to make him impotent as a leader. And more than that, its meant to damage him in 2020.

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National leaders used to have a different view of migration than what we see from leaders today

During the administrations of Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge, immigration was reduced to a trickle. After leaving office, Coolidge wrote in a December 13, 1930 newspaper column that most immigrants had come to demonstrate loyalty to America, but they must come “slowly” and avoid “city colonies while spreading across the county.” He then explained why, which ought to resonate today: “We have certain standards of life that we believe are best for us. We do not ask other nations to discard theirs, but we do wish to preserve ours. … We reflect on no one in wanting immigrants who will be assimilated into our ways of thinking and living.”

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/cal-...gration-system

Cartels, human traffickers, and smugglers have perfected their business of exploiting our laws, enticing families and children to make the dangerous trek to our border while they make a hefty profit. For $8,000 these criminal organizations will transport a single adult across the border and assist them in avoiding detainment. The fee is reduced to $5,000 for family units, because having a minor in your group is essentially a “get out of jail free” card. Our immigration loopholes are a magnet for illegal aliens, a profitable business for criminals, and a huge danger to innocent children, many of whom are being rented out to pose in family units.

One of the most glaring loopholes in our immigration system is the Flores settlement agreement, which mandates that any minor apprehended at the border cannot be detained for more than 20 days. This has incentivized adults to cross the border with a child in the hope of staying indefinitely in the United States.

At the McAllen facility, officials reported that they were forced to release family units into the country after just three days because they did not have room to house the constant flow of people being processed at the facility. From December 2018 to May 2019 alone, over 160,000 family unit members had been released into our country. Like all aliens who are released to our country’s interior, they were sent with instructions to appear for a court date, and we have no mechanism to hold them accountable if they don’t show up.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/rep-...icans-congress