"The Memo" - The Onion Gets it right

https://politics.theonion.com/fbi-wa...ass-1822639681

The release:

WASHINGTON—Stressing that such an action would be highly reckless, FBI Director Christopher Wray warned Thursday that releasing the “Nunes Memo” could potentially undermine faith in the massive, unaccountable government secret agencies of the United States. “Making this memo public will almost certainly impede our ability to conduct clandestine activities operating outside any legal or judicial system on an international scale,” said Wray, noting that it was essential that mutual trust exist between the American people and the vast, mysterious cabal given free rein to use any tactics necessary to conduct surveillance on U.S. citizens or subvert religious and political groups. “If we take away the people’s faith in this shadowy monolith exempt from any consequences, all that’s left is an extensive network of rogue, unelected intelligence officers carrying out extrajudicial missions for a variety of subjective, and occasionally personal, reasons.” At press time, Wray confirmed the massive, unaccountable government secret agencies were unaware of any wrongdoing for violating constitutional rights.


Well said Onion. Well played indeed.

The same agency that is now worried about the release of any information by Congress is the same one that REFUSED to provide information to the legitimate oversight committees in Congress until they were finally on the cusp of contempt charges, and there is still a vast number of documents that have been withheld. They have systematically refused oversight, and thanks to Watergate there is this notion that basically NO ELECTED official has review of their actions. they say they don't answer to the President and they refuse to answer to Congress. Who the hell do they answer to then?

We've built an entity within the US government, DOJ and the FBI and Intelligence apparatus, that appears to actually not answer to anyone. Sort of like the Federal Reserve but with the power to violate the rights of any American if so inclined. They're a bizarre 4th branch of government and seem to clearly think they have no obligation to let anyone in elected office know what they are doing.

Yeah, these are the people I trust to tell us what we need to know. This bodes so very well for liberty.

Amen!

Obviously they answered to Obama and did his bidding when requested to do so.

Onion is great. The same issue had an article that the president will agree to a Sean Hannity interview on the probe.

The paper, published by the Washington post, is an equal opportunity slayer

Sadly, the Onion is, I agree, one of the last really balanced "news" operations out there. Unfortunately it's all satire so not much actual news. You have to already know the news to get the joke.

The Post itself, as well as the Times, Spent this week arguing to keep the memo private, in what has to be the funniest reversal of policy for a supposedly open press in a long time. The NYT went so far as to condemn parts of the memo and things that were wrong with it in their editorial board. That's fine except for the fact that they could not have possibly actually READ the memo and since it was classified no one could have told them the contents without breaking the law to keep it private, which they said they support.

They should have called for its release, as well as the release of the Democrats version, and then critiqued it as needed. The fact they wanted it to not even be released says a great deal about the current state of the Fourth Estate.

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Sadly, the Onion is, I agree, one of the last really balanced "news" operations out there. Unfortunately it's all satire so not much actual news. You have to already know the news to get the joke.

The Post itself, as well as the Times, Spent this week arguing to keep the memo private, in what has to be the funniest reversal of policy for a supposedly open press in a long time. The NYT went so far as to condemn parts of the memo and things that were wrong with it in their editorial board. That's fine except for the fact that they could not have possibly actually READ the memo and since it was classified no one could have told them the contents without breaking the law to keep it private, which they said they support.

They should have called for its release, as well as the release of the Democrats version, and then critiqued it as needed. The fact they wanted it to not even be released says a great deal about the current state of the Fourth Estate.

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Yeah, when was the last time the press wanted something kept from being released? Brings a new meaning to transparency because it makes it more clear what a bunch of lapdogs the media has become.

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Originally Posted by Doc

Yeah, when was the last time the press wanted something kept from being released? Brings a new meaning to transparency because it makes it more clear what a bunch of lapdogs the media has become.

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surely this will finally end any questions about media "objectivity", or even that they are interested in journalism in some way.

It's a crock. the media is in two camps, with 90% of the "mainstream" media on the left, Fox and some internet sites and talk radio on the right. It has absolutely nothing to do with finding truth or reporting facts or even upholding basic journalistic standards.

That crap is gone. we're in the days of Hearst and Pulitzer again, where the pro Spanish American War paper makes up facts to stir the nation, the anti war paper makes up facts to try to get them to go the other way.

ANY actual journalist would call for the memo to be released, and demand that the FISA application itself be released as well, as well as the warrant and anything else related. We need to see those things b/c they verify the memo. Was the fact that this was political research not told to the court? Did they use a news story planted by the same oppo research firm to then corroborate the oppo research and the court never knew? That's a huge huge deal.

For that matter, is the court handing out warrants for wiretaps on American citizens like candy?

With the media calling for information to NOT be released, not asking for MORE to be released, it's obvious what is going on.

Of course the reason that's happened is the media know this was a Leftist/Democrat use of law enforcement for political purposes.

It fits the pattern we now see develop. The IRS was the first one to get out to the public, where left leaning IRS agents made sure to do what they could to limit conservative groups from becoming involved in the political process. Sanctioned by the White House or not this was the start of it.

But then we see it obviously with the Clinton email investigation, which has now had many other supporting facts come out to show the fix was in from the start.

And we now see it in this Trump/Russia nonsense. It was a setup "insurance policy" as Strozk called it in his texts, just in case Trump actually won.

The real collusion was with the DNC and Clintons, who have received large sums from Putin tied entities, and who paid for this "research" that was sourced from Russian sources and then used to obtain warrants to use the FBI/DOJ to investigate a political rival.

Of course the Russians haven't "Colluded" to help either side. What they've done, and the U of Washington study proved it, is create political turmoil and national naval gazing on our own internal politics. they want us divided and interior focused, they don't really care who wins so long as neither winner is able to act due to the political divisiveness. That's how they work.

The last thing the leftist media want is for all of that to be confirmed. It would be the Democrats Watergate on steroids, and they will circle the wagons and deny every basic principle of their profession to keep that from happening.

To me the memo is like a critique or a book review. It is a one perspective spin that may or may not be accurate.

Taken as a critique fine. Nunes and the White House want this released as a fact based document when it is a book review and nothing more.

Might be accurate but it might not be. A Democrat version would possibly be no better.

The only way to have transparency is to release the fisa warrant in its entirety. All the evidence. Of course this is an ongoing investigation

Trump and Nunes are pushing a narrative that has a grain of truth and that is the American people should worry about the powers of government watching us.

I not only sympathize with that I believe that. Unfortunately when. Forced to choose between my government and the Russians, I pick my government every time.

Trump does not value the rule of law. He doesn’t command a respect of the Constitution. He favors people and decisions that personally support him.

Do we accept the evidence presented that the Russians played a role in our elections? Yes or no. I think they did.

Manafort worked for pro Russian Ukrainians prior to joining the campaign. That is a red flag that a watchful and patriotic FBI agent would take notice of. He is going to be monitored close,y for good reason.

Carter Page’s dealings with Russia makes him a legitimate target of US intelligence services. The fact that he then works for a presidential campaign doubles the stakes. If American needs to be monitored it is him.

George popadopolous came to the attention of American intelligence services for his comments intercepted by Australian intelligence. He needs to be monitored. The fact that he works for a presidential campaign also raises the stakes.

General Flynn and Jarred did not fully disclose information on the DF 86. That is serious.

A lot of people are getting money from the Russians. But it does appear that the Trump businesses are especially beholding to the Russians. Eric trump is quoted as stating their family business received a great deal of financing from Russia.

The president has been overly supportive of Russia potentially sharing classified/top secret information. That is the privilege of the presidency but is scary considering his very pro russia stance.

None of this is proof of collusion but collectively demonstrates reason to investigate. National security is a stake.

There is a case of obstruction of justice to be made.

So in my view while there are legitimate concerns as to our government’s ability to monitor citizens and our increasing lack of freedom, the Trump case is to not one to rally around. Tina is due to the National security implications of the case and more importantly that trump will not move to make the law more objective.

He won’t. He will replace Anyone who opposes him with people who are his personal stooges.

Just as there is a case that the judicial branch is being used as a political weapon.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

There is a case of obstruction of justice to be made.

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Right now the judicial branch is not in play. This is all a fight within the executive branch.

Career staff and politicals most of whom are Republicans.

And the judicial is most certainly 8. The conservative corner once the Supreme Court is involved.

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Originally Posted by Doc

Yeah, when was the last time the press wanted something kept from being released? Brings a new meaning to transparency because it makes it more clear what a bunch of lapdogs the media has become.

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Same crew that let Obama get by with calling his administration transparent and never calling him on it.

I believe the FISA court will be scrutinized intensively due to the warrant being issue with connection to the Dossier.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

Right now the judicial branch is not in play.

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Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof

I believe the FISA court will be scrutinized intensively due to the warrant being issue with connection to the Dossier.

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Gotcha. FISA court rulings and the Patriot Act pose legitimate concerns to the Liberty of American citizens.

But any American like carter Page that was suspected of being targeted by the Russians before the campaign should be looked at. George Papadopoulos appeared to be boasting toor around Australian intelligence. That should be looked at.

These instances began before the dossier. That said opposition research, like a aggrieved, vindictive girlfriend spilling the beans to the NCAA, may not always have pure motives but still say true things.

Some of the dossier has validity especially trumps pro Putin stance. Christopher Steele is former MI 6, he is not a sleazy PI who specializes in adultery cases.

If the president is not the kremlins candidate, he should have repudiated any staffer who could be an agent of Russia. He didn’t and here we are.

Here is an opinion piece from the Washington Post. It is labeled opinion but I think it one that has merit.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.25abd5fbb301

It is telling that the FBI neglected to inform the FISA court that they had canned Steele.

History,

If this was a legit investigation into Russian influence, why are we not investigating John Podesta, whose brother is an agent of a Russian bank tied to Putin? Why isn't Mueller investigating the Uranium One Deal, or the $500K in cash given to Bill Clinton in that process?

You just seem to refuse to see the context of guys like Page, which is that both parties have a TON of these guys running around with ties to all kinds of foreign governments, yet the only "investigation" is this one very narrow slice that so far seems to have no actual evidence of wrongdoing.

That's the first huge clue this isn't about the Russians. That's a bill of goods. If we wanted to investigate foreign influence peddling in our elections and in Washington we'd need a much bigger net.

The truth is this is exactly what the Russians wanted. The idea that Trump is "their man" is so far from any set of facts I don't know where to start, both before and since the election. There's nothing there, nothing. Nada, just lots of accusations from the opposition.

But There is a TON of evidence that what the Russians wanted wasn't "their man" in the white house, but rather for there to be a weak President and lots of controversy and political dissension in the US. It keeps us looking internally and unable to act internationally b/c the American people are divided. THAT is absolutely in the Russian interest and very attainable.

The studies show the Russians actually ran bots to attack BOTH sides. Why do that if they wanted Trump to win?

The reason is they didn't care who won so long as having the nation as splintered as possible no matter who won so they coudln't act.

History I love ya, but you keep going to a few associations of Trump people to Russians and drawing a line that it must mean Trump is their puppet. How you are then able to ignore far stronger, economically provable ties between the Clintons and Russia and think they AREN'T their puppets I don't get. If you do see it and think they are both puppets then we are left with two problems. First, why we aren't investigating them all, and second the notion that basically the Russians are running our country and we just don't know.

There's no evidence they are in fact that influential at all. What we are seeing is no different from our meddling in the last Israeli election, and their meddling in other nation's politics, where they are simply trying to sow discord and weaken us, not control us in some vast Hollywood scripted conspiracy.

Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is the best. The simplest explanation is that the Russians are meddling and lobbying everyone the same way big corporations give money to both sides, and they are one of dozens of nations lobbying US politicians b/c of our power. In that way Trump's camp will have some of those ties, as will Hillary's, but the conclusion to draw is that the swamp itself is so corrupt, not that Trump is somehow a completely controlled puppet of Putin. that's fantasy movie nonsense.

Keep it simple. the Russians wanted exactly what they got, an American political process polarized and distrustful so we can't get anything done. They don't have to be in secret control of anyone in order to meet their goals, so why try for such a nearly impossible task? Far easier to do what they are doing, and let us do all their work for them.

FWIW if you read up on how communist infiltrations worked in the past, this follows that exact pattern. The plan was to use others to get the results they want, not through direct extortion and such. the nuclear disarmament movement in Europe in the 1980s, going back to the 50s. It's the same thing all over again. Buying into this stuff that Trump is some complete stooge of Putin beholden to him over some hotel or hooker is just carrying the Russian's water for them, not hurting them in any way. It's playing right into their hands.

BTW, the one thing I see cited is the Russians hacked Podesta, and that's the proof of their motives.

that has some real problems.

First, the only way we "know" it was the Russians is the heads of intelligence agencies I now have some real doubts about, the political heads, tell us so. Not exactly proof positive. but let's set that aside.

Second, Podesta was hacked by clicking on a phishing link. I can assure everyone that everyone in the US gets these emails. It's called phishing for a reason.

Right now the Russians (and every other country with a computer) are trying to hack the Democrats, the Republicans, and every government agency. The Chinese have pulled it off quite successfully. They got Podesta but they weren't per se only targeting Podesta or the DNC and not the RNC.

But then why release his emails if it was them? Well, look at the hell it has caused politically. It undermined a major US political party, and has become the source of great political distraction.

Why on Earth wouldn't they release them even if they had no ties to Trump? And that's why it's not proof. It's the test of necessary and sufficient reasons.

Would Russia have still tried to get those emails if Trump wasn't even in the race? Of course,they have been trying for decades just like they are trying right this minute to hack our leaders.

Would they have still released them? Why not? It caused political upheaval. Honestly I don't think it had much impact on the election at all, but it certainly created a buzz.

IMO if you need a reason to think they'd release them based on the candidates, there's as good of a case that they released them to stop Hillary more than to help Trump, and that's a key difference.

B/c in 2009 the Clintons and Putin were like peas and Carrots. Uranium One went through, Clinton was doing big money speeches, Russian money was coming into the FOundation, Hillary came up with the "Reset" with Russia to bring US high tech to Moscow. It was great.

But what if that close relationship went south somehow? Surely it did if the Russians didnt' want her in charge, right? So what if it went' south and all of this was more about HURTING Clinton instead of helping Trump?

IMO there's a much stronger case for that conspiracy theory than the current one that Trump is his puppet. Trump has no money trail nearly as tight or as wide as that between Putin and the Clintons, up until just a couple of years ago.

This is kind of along the lines of things I see. With this being done in secret, the chance of it being checked was nil, till someone you couldn’t control gets elected. This will get severe when the evidence chains are exposed and the evidence isn’t verified and true.

http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/...ods-procedures

The new info coming from Senator Grassley may be the most serious of all.

Basically what we're seeing is that the Russians were meddling, but did so by helping feed info to Clinton people at the State Department, who then fed it to Steele and created the circle with the FBI.

We know a Russian attorney approached the Trump people with the promise of dirt on Clinton. It would seem they also approached Clinton with the promise of dirt on Trump, and the Clinton people took that and it became the opposition research they funded through Fusion GPS and Steele. Steele was apparently already an "asset" of the FBI per the information that's been released (from the FBI), and that means they used him so that info could get to the FBI (and that is what happened per testimony).

So the Russians were (and are) doing just what I said. Trying to play both sides to sow dissension and cause political chaos.

Regardless, there's vastly more to this than the simple "trump colluded with Russia" meme. This was back room politics at the highest level, which means very likely to be corrupt in so many ways on all sides.

And the politically expedient talk from the right is this doesn’t affect Mueller. I don’t see how it can’t if the warrants are tossed with faulty support which appears to be the case, his work will collapse and the evidence will be thrown out.

I suppose b/c they wont' throw out the warrants. You'd think it would be fruit of the poison tree, but how do you throw out a secret warrant issued by a secret court where we don't know the judge or what is in the warrant?

If we need to investigate Russian meddling fine, let's investigate. Let's haul in he FBI guys who gave immunity to all of Clintons people, find out why they were allowed to destroy evidence, pull apart Uranium One and the Clinton Foundation, let's find out how deep this foreign influence peddling goes.

But if we're going to use the full power of the federal government to go after just one narrow part of this, conveniently staffed by a couple dozen politically active people who all gave money to the other candidate and about which there are now myriad questions about EXTREME bias and mentions of "backup plans", then no that's not very legitimate as an investigation.

that's a witch hunt, b/c we can't trust the results. Whatever Mueller claims to have found we don't know what he left out, what exculpatory evidence was withheld, what they found about other people the chose not to pursue, etc. The investigation is severely tainted.

IMO all the texts and documents of all the conversations of every FBI and other person involved in this should be released to he Intelligence Committees for review by BOTH parties.

That's the only way this investigation can come off as legitimate, if people with interests on both sides of the aisle have full disclosure of what's going on.

The judge is not a secret. His name is Rudolph Contreras, Obama appointee. I have a feeling it will be a protracted, sordid affair, but it's going to have to come out now because of its political leanings.

IMO it all needs to come out. The respective Intelligence Committees need to review everything. All the special counsel documents, but also dumps of everything from the FBI, DOJ and State department plus all texts and emails from everyone involved. Massive amounts of info of course.

it's obvious from Strozk how deep the hatred and bias runs. Talk about being in McCabe's office discussing "backup plans" is deeply ominous.

IMO like so many on the left they see trump as a deep threat to the nation and do not accept that he should be President, and they decided to do anything they could to make sure it didn't happen and if it did happen come up with ways to get him out or keep him in check.

We know pretty much for sure the FBI tanked the Clinton investigation on purpose, there's no reason to think they suddenly grew ethics and morals when it came to investigating Trump. in fact the notion that it's not tainted is IMO silly.The head of the FBI was drafting Clinton's exoneration months before the "investigation" even concluded. Combined with the fact that legally she committed a crime and that the FBI extended immunity to key people and allowed multiple devices to be destroyed along with 30K emails, it's clear what is going on here.

Which begs the question who can you trust?

Right now, I'm not sure we can trust ANY OF THEM! 😠

The left has always accused the right of doing whatever they have been guilty of, it turns out that this is once again the case with then Russian collusion case.

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Originally Posted by KeithKSR

The left has always accused the right of doing whatever they have been guilty of, it turns out that this is once again the case with then Russian collusion case.

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Agree. The left is more in collusion with Russia than Trump or the GOP

This is starting to look a lot more like the Manchurian candidate, with Hillary Clinton starring as Mrs. Icelin (sp?).

Jeff Sessions recused himself for saying hi to the Russian Ambassador at an official function, and yet we have now the Democrat ranking member of House Intelligence texting Ukranians trying to get dirt on Trump, ranking minority Senator of the Senate Intel committee working with an agent of a Russian oligarch and mobster to get a conversation with Steele, and they're still there.

that's just the latest turn in things.

We now have a witness testifying under oath the Russians bribed the Clintons to support the Uranium one sale, and even just the facts we had on hand before that would make it impossible to believe otherwise. Millions poured into their foundation, direct payments to Bill Clinton through Putin influenced companies, etc.

People talk about Manafort, Flynn and Page having ties to Russians. OK. Podesta's brother is an agent of a Russian bank, this lobbying entity for Uranium one is chocked full of former Clinton people, the Foundation has gotten millions, the State Department apparently fed info to Steele and all of the dossier mess is overlapped with Russian contacts.

This thing is a cesspool.

What we're seeing is not Trump as Putin's puppet, that's just not factual or realistic. We ARE seeing the depth of corruption in Washington, and the level of foreign influence peddling. I think some of that is tied to Manafort et al, but a LOT more of it seems to be died to the Clintons and it seems to touch on everyone in between.

The truth is that for money or political dirt or simple expediency that all these politicians will do business with Russia. Whatever lines their pockets or scores them political points to stay in power.

But in the end so far it appears the Clintons and the DNC were vastly more in bed with the Russians than Trump. Trump appears to have been lobbied through Manafort and had one meeting hoping to get oppo research. clinton and the DNC have numerous people with huge amounts of money tied to Russian lobbying and they went out and spent $7 million to manufacture dirt with Russian help.

Not hard to see which way that scale is really tipping right now. Or what the "insurance policy" was that was concocted at the highest levels of the FBI.

that's another topic, but I love the complaint that "attacking" the FBI is undermining law enforcement. I guess it was when the left called out Hoover for his hunt for leftists that was different? The FBI has undermined itself, the only issue is they got found out. they SHOULD be undermined, just like any other corrupt police activity.

BTW that witness on Uranium One was a FBI witness that the FBI has blocked from talking to Congress or anyone for a long time, including until after this last election.

Supposedly the FBI has tapes and other info on this b/c he was acting as their covert source. He says the FBI has buried this since 2010. He testified under oath that the Russians gave millions to a lobbying firm ($3 million) to use that money to help the Uranium One deal and that it went to the Clinton Foundation in part to help get their favor.

So if Russia is our biggest threat (which Obama blew off in the prior election) then surely this is a big time threat isn't it? So where's the special counsel to investigate the FBI's actions in the Obama administration?

Looks to me like they buried info that this Uranium One deal was corrupt, clearly they never mentioned it to the oversight committees of Congress at the time, and we know they botched the Clinton email investigation on purpose (surely that's proven by now to most people's satisfaction).

What more proof does one need of their duplicity and corruption and bias?

I am all for investigating uranium one.

Actually I for congress making this decision null and void and taking back this national security resource.

A separate review of that decision is appropriate. That said this administration refuses to sign a bill passed with overwhelming bipartisan support to increase sanctions on Russia. Mr. Trump
Will not sign it.

There are many skeletons in the closet of and abuses of power committed by The FBI.

That said I am reminded by christ’s Parable about the splinter in another’s eye while you have a log in your own.

Trump is he last person to stand up against government abuses.

He is a bad bet for the country.

Why is he the last person to stand up to abuses? Setting aside claims by his political opponents that have no evidence, what has he done that supports that position?

Saying he's a "fascist" and a dictator over and over doesn't make it true, actions make it true. What has he done since taking office that in any way is outside the political norm or overstepping his authority as President?

I can't think of a single thing. the proof is in the pudding at some point, and so far the "log" of abuses and questionable behavior and influence peddling is in his opponent's eyes, not his. All the evidence so far of any substance points to Clinton, the DNC and politically motivated people dug in at the FBI and DOJ, not Trump.

Trump is an ass, no doubt, but that doesn't make him a threat to the nation. Clinton possibly selling us out to the Russians, now that's a threat to the nation. Not liking a guy, and most of us don't like him, doesn't make all the other claims true.

The selling out to the Russians is in the eye of the beholder. I think the meetings, the lying on sf86 forms, trumps call to the Russians to release the 30,000 emails, kushner asking to set up a secure back channel with the Russians through their safe houses, thanking the Russians for redux in our staff puts us on a dangerous road. I think his financial dealings and taxes would should a financial relationship that would create a perception of such a conflict of interest that most sincere objective patriots will see him as the threat I do. In time.

We will see. Happy to be wrong. And will admit I overreacted when the proof of his complicity and lack of being compromised has shown to be lacking.

Through arrogance, ignorance and treating the government like he does unions and mob bosses trump is building a case of obstruction of justice that is compelling. If he didn’t colude in some way with the Russians, he sure acts like it. And has said as much.

I also raised he issue of uranium 1 in a previous thread. Some agreed it should be an issue but others here said trumps hands are tied.

If we can get yum deal restructured legally then a president and congress could a deal regarding uranium voided as well.

I believe this is entirely accurate. Deep down I believe he’s laundered Russian money, knowingly or unknowingly. Only a small group of people get to play in that sandbox and they all know one another. I’m not sure the link can be made that the collusion was a Russian government issue. It is a foreign money in elections issue and congress has no one to blame but themselves for that.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

The selling out to the Russians is in the eye of the beholder. I think the meetings, the lying on sf86 forms, trumps call to the Russians to release the 30,000 emails, kushner asking to set up a secure back channel with the Russians through their safe houses, thanking the Russians for redux in our staff puts us on a dangerous road. I think his financial dealings and taxes would should a financial relationship that would create a perception of such a conflict of interest that most sincere objective patriots will see him as the threat I do. In time.

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If Trump was laundering money in some way, this special counsel would already likely be over. But either way you have no worries b/c Mueller has access to all of Trump's financials and FEC data and we know he's had people, most of whom were big Hillary donors, pouring through it. So it's not like they'll cover anything up, lol.

But it's been 9 months or so with unlimited subpoena powers and money, you'd think they could find that by now b/c we know he got Trump's financials very early on in the process.

BTW, I have little doubt that as a global businessman that Trump's companies have engaged in all kinds of bribery and kickbacks and such. If you want to do business in the rest of the world that's what you do. But none of that means he's now the puppet of Russia or anyone else. That's just doing business.

The scope of Mueller’s investigation went back on Manafort to 05-06 so I’m sure they’ve looked back that far at Trump too. There is not going to be a way for Mueller to show how he colluded with the Russian government to affect the outcome of the election though. They are grasping at straws for political reasons IMO. I do think all billionaires grease one another’s palms during the course of business transactions though and I think Trump is neck deep in that sort of behavior.

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Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof

I believe this is entirely accurate. Deep down I believe he’s laundered Russian money, knowingly or unknowingly. Only a small group of people get to play in that sandbox and they all know one another. I’m not sure the link can be made that the collusion was a Russian government issue. It is a foreign money in elections issue and congress has no one to blame but themselves for that.

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Cat,

The thing is that Russian businesses are so intertwined with Putin, it is the same. He has just been so, especially early, supportive of Putin that he even publicly put our country and Russia on the same playing field.

There might be some truth in comparing CIA and KGB. We have done bad things. But I don’t like giving the moral high ground to our enemy.

One of Obama’s weaknesses was that his view of America was that our country was a colonial power that hurt the developing world.

Trump sees America in very pragmatic terms. Terms that have some merit but are counterproductive to long term American interests.

History, if Putin tried to help get Trump in office, he has to pissed off as hell so far at the return on it. Really all we have to go on is him saying nice things about Putin. Just words during an election. that's not much given what politicians all say during elections.

There is zero evidence Trump has done anything positive for Russia. Just the contrary, Trump has done more to push back on Russia in one year than Obama did in 8.

We've move troops into the Baltics and we're upping their level of defense. He's created more hegemony in the Ukraine by trying to supply coal and support the anti-Russian forces there. We've bombed their ally Syria. Put more pressure on their ally North Korea. He's gone to the Middle East to try to prevent the power vacuum there that was allowing Russia in the door.

There's not one thing he's done that anyone can point to and say "see, he's paying back Putin". Nothing.

At some point the proof is in the pudding. Trump was supposed to send us into the 16th plane of hell if elected. Break up NATO, destroy alliances, do Russian's bidding, destroy the stock market.

So far none of it has happened. so when does the big Russian payoff happen? B/c so far Russia has to be WAY less happy with Trump as President than Obama.

And I agree, Obama had no love of America. He saw us as an imperialist colonial power. Trump is a true pragmatist, real politik, which is my school of thought, and so far that's what he's done.

At what point do we step back and admit that he's done a pretty good job so far and start to question all these dire predictions that seem to be based on nothing more than an extrapolation of him personally being so unlikeable and crass?

That may be the case, but Mueller will never be able to prove it. Kinda like Putin being worth 70 Billion dollars. What service has he provided? What gadget has he invented? What natural Russian resource did he commandere or steal to affect that? (oil) most
likely. I have a feeling if Mueller digs into the topic you suggest, he will find the Clinton’s in the middle of it and he won’t go there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

Cat,

The thing is that Russian businesses are so intertwined with Putin, it is the same. He has just been so, especially early, supportive of Putin that he even publicly put our country and Russia on the same playing field.

There might be some truth in comparing CIA and KGB. We have done bad things. But I don’t like giving the moral high ground to our enemy.

One of Obama’s weaknesses was that his view of America was that our country was a colonial power that hurt the developing world.

Trump sees America in very pragmatic terms. Terms that have some merit but are counterproductive to long term American interests.

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To date the only collusion evidence found is that Hillary through Steele colluded with the Russians on the Trump dossier.

You have confused collusion with shedding light.

Trump and his goosesteppers greatest weapon is that those who are speaking the truth are not perfect. Trump and those who defend him are discounting any evidence, any allegation that is worthy of serious review by looking at there flaws.

There is no one perfect who can stand up to trump. Then Flaws and shortcomings of those who oppose trump doesn’t diminish his complicity in working with the Russians.

Trump deflects, ignores, and highlights he flaws of those who oppose him. This takes the focus of his own shortcomings away. Trump insists that his accusers be perfect yet conspiring with an enemy power is as bad as it could get.

Steele is former British intelligence. If he so passionately reached out to share his concerns it might have been about money, who his employer was.

It could also have been from a sense of duty of patriotism to the UK that a pliable Putin stooge running America is a danger to the free world

Yesterday I watched darkest hour. I was reminded of a leader, a hero who stood against tyranny.

We need one now. Luckily trump is complete moron but a moron with a military stronger than the axis powers.


Going to beat my head against the wall. More productive.