Trump not even close to biggest show at NATO

So is Macron a Russian spy? lol.

1) He's wanting a "reset" with Russia to improve relations between Russia and NATO/EU,

2) He's critical of NATO, calling it "brain dead", questioning the lack of focus on ISIS, etc.

3) He's sowing dissension among the members by calling out Turkey

Seriously, this is a great example of why we have got to get past the media narratives. Narratives on Trump and everyone else for that matter. There's simply no "there" there in all of these things.

You can agree or disagree with Trump, that's OK, but we have to get past this modern notion that people with different policies and conclusions are somehow evil or traitors or racist sexist homophobes. They are just other Americans who happen to disagree. You don't have to agree with them, but don't dismiss opposing viewpoints with an ad hominem attack.

Trump is not only right to call out NATO's lack of commitment, but he's also not alone in calling out NATO as a NATO nation's leader.

Heck, Charles de Gaulle urinated on the entire NATO military structure, by far the most divisive move of any NATO nation during its history, and that a) didn't end the alliance, and b) didn't mean he was a traitor to France.

So I think NATO can survive Trump calling them out for what in fact is a completely correct assessment of them not meeting their contractual obligations.

Macron certainly thinks so, so unless he's also a Putin agent maybe, just maybe, it's policy, not conspiracy.

He is criticizing the direction Trump is taking the world.

No, he's not. He's actually on Trump's side on ISIS, albeit insincere, and he's absolutely pushing for improved relations with Putin and Russia. His own version of Obama's "reset".

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKBN1XO2P9

The core argument is built around security and defense, with Macron positing that Europe must bolster its capacity and willingness to act, both because it cannot rely eternally on an unpredictable United States, and because within NATO it is being hamstrung by unilateral action like that of Turkey in Syria.

That leads him to two major conclusions: that a Europe with strengthened defense capability and enhanced sovereignty will better counter-balance the United States and China and should reexamine strategic partnerships, including with Russia.


He's suggesting a split with the US, and pivoting to Russia. Simple as that.

It's not unheard of. In the 1960s Charles de Gualle didn't like France having a back seat to the US in NATO either, which is why he all but pulled them out of it. We didn't back France in the Suez, and things went downhill from there.

But his statements at this summit are far more radical than anything Trump has suggested.

Yes, he has issues with Trump's direction, but only b/c Trump is saying the US won't continue to foot the bills for European nations that spend all their money on health care etc. while we foot those bills for defense. Trump is right, and they don't like it.

But this is hardly new to Trump. This pull and tug has been going on literally since the 1950s within NATO. I can document many more cases if needed, but this is nothing that new.

And in fact much of what Macron is proposing isn't really inconsistent with Trump's stance. Both want the EU to be more militarily self-funded and prepared without the US having to have their backs financially and in blood, both have encouraged a dialogue with Russia, both want more focus on eliminating ISIS, etc.

No, world leaders don't care for Trump. Outside of the Iron Lady few cared for Reagan. Remember all the protests in Europe over US nuclear policy in the 1980s? They had effigies of Reagan back then too, just like with Trump today.

Reagan wasn't part of their little club, and neither is Trump. Now Trump is a far shadow of Reagan in terms of his persona and maturity, but the reason both are dismissed is b/c neither is part of that little elitist club that thinks we should shut up and do as we're told.


But back to my point. Macron has outright suggested moving NATO east and working towards an apparent goal of bringing Russia into the fold. Is he a Putin spy b/c he wants better relations with Russia? That's enough to convict Trump in the minds of many, why not Macron? Is he acting in his nation's best interests as he sees them or is he a traitor?

Many of the European nations do not agree with Macron, or if they do they are still willing to pony up more funds for the current NATO lineup. For 2019 they have donated 100 billion more than they did in 2017 and have pledged to donate an additional 100 billion over their donation in 2019.

The President's words and threats are getting many of the NATO members off their wallets.

Oh, Merkel has done everything but turn Macron over her knee.

France has always been the odd man out in NATO, so not really a surprise, but clearly the "leave America, embrace Russia" pitch fell on very deaf ears with the members.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Oh, Merkel has done everything but turn Macron mmmover her knee.

France has always been the odd man out in NATO, so not really a surprise, but clearly the "leave America, embrace Russia" pitch fell on very deaf ears with the members.

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Ahhhhhhh, the French.........

With Germany being the sole guarantor of EU debt with Brexit happening soon, turning Macron over her knee may well be justified.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Oh, Merkel has done everything but turn Macron over her knee.

France has always been the odd man out in NATO, so not really a surprise, but clearly the "leave America, embrace Russia" pitch fell on very deaf ears with the members.

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I'm sure this won't get discussed, but Trump's asshat, brazen style is apparently working with NATO. In fact working better than maybe any President since Reagan at getting them to actually do something useful.

Most important they got increased spending/support for the Baltics and Poland. Trump backed that btw, another sure sign he's a Putin agent I'm sure since the Russians LOVE the idea of pulling those countries closer to the West. (where's that sarcasm font?) :4chsmu1:

Somehow Erdogan stood down on threats to block the Baltics resolution. I won't credit Trump with that, but I do credit NATO with it. As ugly as the meeting got, it worked.

Also, spending by other NATO nations is in fact increasing. Trump was vicious in his callouts on it, but it is actually working. Even Canada is starting to increase spending.

And that's a part of why Trudeau was not real warm and fuzzy with Trump. Trump treated him like a 6 year old in a presser, and it was ugly, but since asking nicely hasn't worked for 40 years....

Wasn't a very pretty summit, but it worked. Trump knows hes got all the cards. It's America, they don't have to like it but we pay NATO's bills. We're the big brother you have that everyone is afraid of so the bullies don't pick on you, and he knows it. I wish he'd handle it like an adult and not a child, but he's getting better results than Obama, so I guess ugly and childish is working better than polite and disengaged.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof

With Germany being the sole guarantor of EU debt with Brexit happening soon, turning Macron over her knee may well be justified.

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The Germans may be the next to vote to leave. They're going to be carrying Europe's water the way the US has carried the Western world's for decades. They're welcome to it.

If Germany bails out, the house of cards that resides in Belgium may fall completely apart in my lifetime.