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Trump continues to push an isolationist agenda railing against our allies while praising Russia. What is striking is that Putin has used trumps tariffs as an example of why US leadership is bad for the world.
Trump wants to ignore the annexation of Crimea and isolate America totally.
God help us all.
Some consider it a coordinated ventureQuote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
I am trying to hold my tongue here and just focus on Kentucky Basketball. But I see the country being led down a disastrous path (more so than the most recent administrations) and it is difficult to contain my worry and fear for the fate of our country.
And now you know how I felt when Obama was elected. I expected the corruption that we has yet he and others deny such as the IRS and Fast and Furious, I also expect an economy that continued to tank, a rise in a welfare /nanny state and a foreign policy that was a joke. Of course I had enough faith in the system to not proclaim Armagedon, knowing there would be a small minority that would find it more important abandon their core values in an effort to obstuct his goals, even ones that clearly were beneficial, but enough faith that eventually "this too shall pass" and fottunately it did. A robust economy, a foreign policy that is clear and our allies know where we stand and our foes know we mean what we say despite an artificial witch hunt and people who so dislike the man tha they will do thing that would harm the country rather than support any inititive, even ones they champion.......Quote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
History, I love ya, but you are just convinced Trump is a Russian agent and won't let go, and I just don't get it.
I don't mean that in a bad way, I sincerely wish we could spend a couple of days talking so I could understand this view out there that sees Trump as so deeply evil and somehow a threat to the nation and democracy in general.
B/c I have to tell you that the empirical evidence from over a year of his term in office points to absolutely nothing unusual in his actions compared to any other President. He's done nothing in terms of policy or actions that is in any way unusual in an historical context. It may not be something you support, but it's nothing we didn't see with Reagan or Bush or Obama or whoever.
INvestigating leaks? Obama set a record for trying to clamp down on leaks, was he a threat to freedom of the press? The press clearly didn't think so.
There's just nothing there, and there's nothing to him trying to build a better relationship with Russia or anyone else. Obama and Hillary were obsessed with doing it, were they evil and going to destroy the nation? No.
Russia is not our friend, but neither is China and we have to work with them too. Would you rather we close their embassies and cut off relations and start massing troops? Of course not, so if dialog and diplomacy is better why is calling for it so evil?
It's b/c the media and the elites have you convinced Trump is a Russian spy IMO, and there's no truth to it. Did Russia try to influence policy with people close to Trump? Sure they did. They did with Hillary too, and far more effectively, and they did with Bush and Obama and Clinton and everyone else, and so did Oman and Jordan and Nigeria and Australia, et al. It's how the system works, good or bad.
What Trump needs to do is use the offer of a G7/8 seat with Russia to get them to remove pressure on Kim as we try to cut a deal with North Korea. Russia gets a seat back at the table, but they support Kim's pivot to a treaty with the West that gives him the financial support he needs in exchange for demilitarization.
That's just good policy and good foreign strategy, not some evil move against democracy as a whole.
The truth IMO is that Trump has done a suprisingly good job so far. Yes he's as rough around the edges as ever and loves throwing out crap to keep everyone dancing on his strings, and that's very annoying at times, but in terms of actual actions not a single one of those dire predictions have even come close to passing.
Maybe after more than a year it's time to accept that he's not going to open up camps and round people up or stage a coup and arrest Congress. Not going to happen guys. He's following the law as much or more than the last President, and is far from some kind of deep threat.
The only threat he is is to the power elites of this nation who are really pulling our strings, and you can see how much they are fighting back to stay in control of our government and the decisions it makes. If you want to fear for democracy fear for agencies full of career people who refuse to answer to any elected official from ANY branch of government and then make statements proud of it as if they are somehow holding the moral high ground. Fear Rosenstein and his ilk and mentality, not Trump. When democracy dies, it will die with the whimper of those people putting in the knife, not flamboyant people like Trump.
I'm befuddled that the last President had numerous examples of clearly extra-Constitutional or outright non-Constitutional behavior as well as clear cases of corruption and cover ups, yet it's this president that is such a threat to democracy in some fundamental way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
IMO all these theories about Trump, where even if he makes a perfectly reasoned suggestion like opening DIALOGUE with them, paints him as somehow nefariously selling America to them, are about the same as the right wing theories we saw that Obama was planning seize the the government rather than leave office b/c the DHS bought a crap load of 40 S&W ammunition.
It's disconcerting the DHS wastes that kind of money, but it's not very likely Obama was plotting to seize the government. LIkewise Trump isn't out there plotting against America as some 1980s B-movie KGB deep cover agent.
Like I said, if you want to worry about the death of democracy, ask which elected official exactly has authority over the Department of Justice. they shoudl change their name to Ministry of Truth and get it over with b/c they apparently don't think they answer to anyone for anything.
First, I respect opposing political views among friends and all Americans.
That said, changing the narrative to Obama is a good tactic for debate I admit. But I think it’s wreckless politics
Stopping short of being a Russian agent isn’t necessarily a ringing endorsement for the President of the United States.
Citizen,
I'd welcome that conversation. I spoke to one of the talking heads from the nightly tv shows. I told her that I hear her and ther roundtables saying we are going to get through Trump and I don't agree. We came through the Witch Trials and McCarthy because at some point someone stood up and said something to the effect of "have you no shame"?
We don't have anyone in power saying that.
I almost started a thread wishing Trump well as he meets with North Koreans. Then summit was off and back on with my head spinning. He really communicates effectively with totalitarian dictators. That is his true strong suit.
And let me preface this by saying I hope to be proven wrong and that in either 2020 or 2024 Trump will peacefully leave office based on the election results. I worry about him not leaving and I worry about the growth of the presidency's imperial power at the same time that Congress has abdicated its role of leadership and serving as a true check and balance beyond mere partisanship.
I am not an Obama apologist and only voted for Hilary Clinton (I voted for Dole in 1996 in spite of the fact that he campaigned to get rid of my job) because of Trump's distasteful comments and his seemingly odd support of Russia over NATO countries. We can list mistakes made by an inexperienced president to be sure. But he is gone and many of his notes in history are being removed or erased.
I don't always personally support presidential policies. But in my job I have faithfully followed the law in carrying out my duties. That was not always easy under Obama. I took a lot of heat for President Bush in front of crowds across the country. This is different to me.
Trump's rallying cry of cleaning up the swamp is in direct opposition to what we have seen from his cabinet secretaries. Historically this will be the most corrupt cabinet in history in terms of exploiting the position at the expense of US taxpayers. Price, Pruitt, Mnuchin. I love the populist mantra. But removing regs, and weakening the career Federal workforce in favor of political cronies who dismiss the law is a step towards dictatorship. Perhaps a small one. But it is a step.
We can point to corruption in virtually every administration. No doubt the Clintons were shameless. This president and his efforts to personally benefit his and his companies fortunes in the oval office exceeds any renting out the Lincoln bedroom in the past.
Trump appears to lack an understanding of the world order and outside of complaining we are getting the shaft it is unclear as to what type of vision he has that will maintain America's place leading the world. Even super powers have their limits and what a super power doesn't want to do is show its limitations by exceeding its power. We need allies. And the western alliance is critical to our nation's survival.
Bush about did that with the invasion of Iraq.
I do think Trump is a kindred spirit of authoritarians and is beholden to the Russians. Putin is about the only leader and Russia the only country that he personally has not criticized. I have never seen an American leader so critical of our nation's allies while giving a pass to our greatest enemy.
I do think when one looks at Manafort, Popadopolous, Carter Paige, Sessions, Don Jr. and Trump himself, Trump's campaign did work with the Russians to win the election. The Russians certainly did intervene in our election. Yes, America has done that to other countries and while I don't feel that subversive undemocratic efforts were in our best long term interests, I throw in my "hypocrite card" to say I don't care.
I don't want us to screw around with other countries' elections. But if we did I can live with it so long as we keep foreigners out of our elections. And I really don't believe illegal aliens voted in big numbers before. Under Boss Trump they might. And I don't want him removed from office that way.
The truth is that the Russians didn't have to do much. In a close election every vote counts. Clinton has been despised by many for years and was always going to be unpopular in the south. Her numbers across the country had to be horrible and objectively people should have known. After all she lost a primary to a first term senator who made one good speech.
But the Russians worked to hurt Clinton and help Trump thus delegitimizing our electoral process. And any efforts to support third party candidates on the liberal side, aided Trump. Trump publicly called for the Russians and wikileaks to release any and all information on Clinton and the democrats. From his own mouth he asked for a foreign power to join the fray. That is an unAmerican as you can get.
If folks can't understand that liberal Americans are more pro America than Russian agents, I don't know what to say. I have cringed at church and other places when liberals are mocked and spoken of like the enemy while the Russians have been forgotten. I am an old school cold warrior. I took Russian language and history to know my enemy so I would know how to fight it.
We have lost the notion that we are all Americans.
Another reason why the Russians didn't need to do as much is a simple and horrible fact. There are a lot of Americans who like a bully. For all our history about freedom and rugged individualism, we have folks who yearn to goose step behind a strong man who is big on talk and low on character .
They like someone who mocks a veteran like John McCain and the handicapped. Some Americans even cheer when a war hero like McCain who is dying when their man prompts a mob looking for a lynching.
Some Americans like it when the President tells law enforcement to not be concerned about the rights of people being arrested. After all it isn't going to happen to them.
There are some Americans who will rally around a man who will says he defends the rights of the unborn while molesting girls once they are born.
There are Americans who will stand by a bully who pardons police who violate the rights of individuals who he jailed like Sheriff Joe.
There are Americans who cheer a man who views the Constitution, the separation of powers, the Bill of Rights and the rules of the senate as arcane stumbling blocks to his agenda.
If I wasn't an American and didn't love this country and want the our great experiment to continue, I'd find the whole thing terribly funny. But I am seeing a whole lot of good people marching (some pretty cruel one goose stepping) off a cliff that will end in tyranny.
I hope I am wrong completely. I hope I am wrong on the biggest issues at least. Until then I will avoid joining Nero playing his fiddle and try to joust some windmills to keep Old Glory flying high.
Excellent postQuote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
It is absolutely not changing the debate to draw on historical actions by past Presidents to measure the actions of the current President. Searching for evidence, comparing actual historical facts is how we get beyond the subjective political talking points based on emotion and sound bytes.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
it's not a tactic, it's trying to find an objective, evidence based measuring stick. WHen you do that you find that Trump has done absolutely nothing in over a year in office that a) is outside the lines of actions by numerous if not almost all past Presidents, and b) none of the dire predictions of his extremism and threat to the nation have come to pass or even raised their heads.
The media and those who see him as somehow evil and a threat claim he's a threat to the free press b/c he calls them out. What? Reagan called them out too, as does any sane conservative b/c the press other than Fox and talk radio is 98% liberal. Calling out the press is NOT undermining the Constitution. Nothing in the document nor the actions or writings of the Founders indicate the President has to accept the press's actions and not respond or criticize, even viciously.
NOw, if Trump drafts a new copy of the Alien and Sedition Act (signed by John Adams) or suspends habeus corpus (done by Lincoln) and starts rounding up reporters, yeah it's OK to claim he's threatening the freedom of the press. But calling CNN fake news is just fighting back against a media complex that is overwhelmingly anti-conservative and pro government, and he has every right and IMO obligation to call them out.
That's just one example of the constant false claims that he's somehow a threat to the whole nation and our way of government. It's nonsense.
And yes, to use historical facts as evidence, Obama was much more active in prosecuting both leakers AND journalists who received those leaks. Trump's DOJ just arrested their first person after a year, Obama was setting new records in this area for proscecutions. That doesn't change the subject, it simply proves that what Trump is doing to the media is no threat whatsoever b/c it is well within the bounds of historical behavior that absolutely didn't destroy our nation.
History, I'll bet you my entire net worth, all $3.49 cents of it, that Trump leaves office just fine. Just like Obama.
I'll respond in more detail later, and I respect your views, but for the life of me I don't understand them. Now, I get why many of my GOP friends don't like him, but they don't like him b/c he is a loud mouthed jerk and b/c he's a populist and not a true conservative. I get those reasons.
But I just don't get the fear that he will take over the nation in some military coup, or that he's an agent of Russia, etc. That stuff just has absolutely no evidenciary support whatsoever when you view it in the CONTEXT of how other elected officials have acted and behaved.
It's absolutely the same as thinking Obama is selling out America b/c he's really a closet Muslim, and they point to the Iran deal and other things as proof. IMO if you're convinced Trump is a Russian spy based on him just not criticizing Russia hard enough then you must by logic be convinced Obama is a Muslim agent. Frankly there's a lot more evidence against Obama than Trump, LOTS more.
BTW, and I'll deal with this more later, but I'd say bombing Russian troops and putting our troops in the Baltic states is a lot more powerful than just criticizing Putin. Trump has been more anti-Russian than Obama or Hillary, and Hillary is the one who got all the direct money from PUtin's companies, but somehow Trump is the guy we have to worry about ?
LIke I said I don't know what to do with that position when every shred of real evidence says just the opposite is true. Obama an Hillary gave the Russians free reign, they were in power when Russia annexed the Crimea and we did nothing. Trump has bolstered ties with anti Russian Ukranian forces, bolstered the baltic states, KILLED Russian troops in Syria not once but multiple times, and he's the pawn b/c during the campaign he called out NATO for not spending enough money?
Really? Stop focusing on rhetoric and look at the facts of record IMO, b/c they say you have nothing to worry about.
Even though Obama was a tool for the Russians I wouldn’t refer to him as a Russian agent.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
Exactly. I think Obama deeply undermined our position abroad, and was strongly favorable to nations like Iran, but I don't think he's an Iranian puppet. I think he's just an idiot who dreamed of assuring his place in history. That's unfortunate, but it's hardly unique among Presidents or other world leaders and it's not led to the overthrow of the government yet either.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
The Trump quip about the Russians finding Hillary’s 30K lost emails was clearly tongue in cheek and a joke. It has yet to be factually determined that the Russians hacked the DNC servers, because the only source for this info is the DNC. The DNC refused to allow the FBI to examine any technology that could determine who hacked into the system.Quote:
But the Russians worked to hurt Clinton and help Trump thus delegitimizing our electoral process. And any efforts to support third party candidates on the liberal side, aided Trump. Trump publicly called for the Russians and wikileaks to release any and all information on Clinton and the democrats. From his own mouth he asked for a foreign power to join the fray. That is an unAmerican as you can get.
It has now become apparent that the “informants” approached the campaign claiming to have info on Hillary. Looks a lot like the FBI attempts at entrapment that failed to work.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the reasons for always changing the narrative. History (not our friend here) will be the only thing that may convince us.
And it certainly will eventually, one way or the other.
But, I truly fear it will be world history and not our own.
For the majority of conservatives Trump simply must be either vindicated in all things or the narrative must be changed to accommodate "alternate facts"
Those are the facts as I see them. And in my heart i can say of a certainty, I truly hope for a successful presidency.
But the doubts are entirely legitimate and historically important.
The truth will win out. God is in control and this is His will for us all. And like I said, it is historic..in a biblical sense imo
Obama’s foreign policy was shortsighted and reeked of inexperience. The Iran deal was poorly conceived. He was arrogant and due to his inexperience didn’t work well with Mitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
Obama was not an Iranian puppet or a Muslim but his view Of the US as a colonial power didn’t help us.
That said the tea party would not have worked with him for the good of the country.
I truly believe nothing obama could have proposed would republicans be willing to have supported
Citizen,
With regards to the trump statement about Russia being brought back into the G7, maybe he should suggest that offer in consultation with you know...the allies.
The man is publicly critical of our allies and glows about thug regimes like Russia, China, turkey, and the Philippines.
I think he actually is displaying the ability to convince most of his supporters this is the correct course of action. Alienate your allies and keep your enemies close.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
It works in some scenarios but is dangerously simplistic in government
The cult of personality surrounding Trump is scary to me. I think he is a moron but there is something in that Neanderthal brain that appeals to far more Americans than I would hope.
He is cruel, stupid, beyond arrogant and his numbers are rising.
That’s how many a conservative felt about Obama...
I think Trump is an idiot at times, especially when he rants on Twitter. Though no more of an idiot than when Obama led every situation from behind and became the drone king in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
FYI, Im too drunk to read and understand this thread
Doc, you are bright enough to understand most things If bourbon was in your veins in stead of blood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
I don't see how we get around the basic correctness of using past evidence to judge current situations. This is the basic basis of all logical conversation and thought from Plato to now. It just is dagnabit. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
I never once strayed from using those examples as comparisons to Trump. If I went off on Obama for 10 paragraphs that's one thing and you'd be right to call me out, but when I cite something Reagan or Bush or Obama or Clinton did in an area of policy or action as a contrast to one Trump did, that's the use of empirical evidence.
For example, the claim is that Trump is being soft and conciliatory towards Russia as US President. the way to judge if that is true or not is to compare to US policy towards Russia under other Presidents. Given the end of the USSR is relatively recent, the best evidence comes from later aministrations, and given the specific references to Putin that's Obama and Hillary.
If other Presidents, and in fact other Western leaders, were even more conciliatory to Russia than Trump, that directly undermines the claim that these current facts show he is somehow beholden to them or adversely influenced by them.
To prove you are right we'd need to show that what Trump is doing is somehow statistically different in some way from what other Presidents did when dealing with Putin, and in fact the evidence shows he has been much tougher on pressuring Russia than Obama or Bush II. Something that says "wow, that's unusual for a PResident to do with Russia, that should be a real concern."
that's how you decide things using logic instead of emotion. You gather evidence, you compare it, you account for variables and differences, and you draw conclusions. that's what I'm doing when I look at past interactions with Russia of other administrations.
I don't mean that to sound pushy, but I just don't know how else to interpret the way to properly draw conclusions on anything, policy or otherwise.
What you are asking me to do is somehow judge Trump's actions in a vacuum, where we can't draw on other policy decisions and instead we get "well he said nice things about Putin so he must like the guy and that means all these claims are true". That is very myopic in its approach, and IMO leads to bad conclusions.
I really am not trying to change the subject. I'm simply trying to show that Trump has taken absolutely no actions to date that show any favoritism to Russia that is in any way an unusual position for the US or a US President to take. In fact, there is a LOT more evidence he's been tougher on Russia than either Bush II or Obama, the two Presidents who have most worked with Russia in the post Soviet but increasingly totalitarian era of Putin.
No more scary that what conservatives saw as the cult of personality around Obama. I was and continue to be disheartened that his message resonated with anyone in this country.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
It's no different, but to draw on that and conclude that this time is somehow different, that Trump is somehow a unique circumstance, is the real threat to the nation and democracy b/c it leads people to think the ends justify the means, which is the biggest threat to our Constitution.
Trump isn't any more a "cult of personality" than Obama was, or Reagan, or Kennedy. We've had lots of Presidents who were able to strike a certain cord with a constituency. Why is that dangerous? Why with Trump are we risking the nation over it? We aren't.
Trump is an ass. That's not the same as being a threat to democracy. If anything it pretty much insures he isn't one.
im sober now so can understand......Quote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
while what you say makes sense, its no different than any other President. You found his .mocking of McCain distastful. I thought thought the same of Obama when he mocked Romney with the "its called a submarine" comment. There were Americans who cheered Obamas end runs of the Consritution. There were people like me who warned the changing the rules as Harry Reid did was not a good idea because not only was it good for the left then but it also allowed the right to do the same. We currently have a govt the will block ANYTHING he wants to do. If Obama want to pardon M Ali, it would be roundly applauded but with Trump its grandstanding and posturing. Obamas goal was to increase welfare and unemployment recipients, Trumps is to create jobs. Some dont like that. I get it. Pepple HATE him and will always hate him. He can do no right. Were he black that would be the definition of racism but he isnt. Is he crass and unlikable? yes. are his policies working? yes.
Saul AlinskyQuote:
Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
Van Jones
Hell Hillary Clinton!
that is a list of crooks
Paul mannaforts cousin is a client. He will tell you he is a crook. Of course to make it in politics and NYC you got to be somewhat crooked
there seems to be a sense that there is a mass of Trump supporters. Im certainly not. In fact at times Im embarrassed by his anitics. What I am is a supporter of 1) his result and 2) the process. I see tremendous positive movement in or ecomony and foreign policy. I think the economy is undeniable. Foreign policy os always debatable but ISIS and N.Korea certainly show progress. As for the American Process, that is not so positive. Hillary lost, get over it. The les
ft needs to quit crying like little babies and move on. Thay act like 5 year olds. I never thought the the GOP could be made to look good when Obama won but miraculously they have becuase of liberal stupidity and childness
Doc, You wrote "While what you say makes sense, its no different than any other President. You found his .mocking of McCain distasteful. I thought thought the same of Obama when he mocked Romney with the "its called a submarine" comment.'
Respectfully the two comments are not in the same universe.
Trump, a man who has not served his country, mocked a POW and said McCain is only a hero because he got captured. Trump's heroes don't get captured.
Attack McCain's policies. Attack a comment or ridicule a statement. But to discount McCain's heroism for being shot down is inexcusable. McCain not only endured torture at the hands of the North Vietnamese for years, McCain refused to cut in line to go home early. Think about that. The NVA thought by releasing McCain early, due to the aviator being the son of an admiral, it might court favor in peace talks. McCain refused to go leave before men who had been captured earlier got to go home.
That is a heroism I don't think I am capable of. And that jackass in the White House sure as hell isn't. Respectfully you can't equate the two. To do so is give Trump the world's biggest ongoing mulligan.
Repeatedly I see wonderful people keep making the same statement of equating Trump to other US leaders. Repeatedly good folks keep saying "the shoe is on the other foot" as this how conservatives felt under Obama. Or paraphrasing, "It is your turn to take it." Guess what? I am not an Obama guy.
I voted Bush 41, Bush 43, McCain. I didn't vote for Romney. But I have grave concerns as to what Obama's weak leadership did. I have even greater concerns of Trump's nonleadership and his clear support of Putin is doing to the most important international alliance the world has ever known.
Let me be clear, I find Trump referencing McCain, as he is dying, and his goose stepping non-thinkers booing McCain during rallies distasteful. I find it distasteful that members of Trump's staff would dismiss McCain as having one foot in the grave and unimportant in policy matters.
I didn't find Trump's comments about McCain being a former POW disqualifying him as real hero "distasteful".
I found it to be unpatriotic and Unfreaking American. It is also should have been an automatic disqualification for that jackass of being considered a legitimate candidate for high office.
TruthQuote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory