AND......as long as it benefits Democrats/Liberals/Left leaning lunatics (is there much of a difference) is it not worthy of discussion?
Darryl
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AND......as long as it benefits Democrats/Liberals/Left leaning lunatics (is there much of a difference) is it not worthy of discussion?
Darryl
I'd guess its illegals voting
America’s No. 1 voter fraud conspiracy theorist goes down in court
"On Monday, the chief of the U.S. District Court in Kansas, Judge Julie A. Robinson,(a republican appointee) popped the bubble of Kris Kobach’s obsession. She ruled, after a lengthy trial, that Kobach, Kansas’s secretary of state, produced no credible support for his theory that large numbers of noncitizens are illegally voting in American elections"
This trial was his opportunity to produce credible evidence of that iceberg, but he failed to do so,” Robinson scolded. “The Court draws the more obvious conclusion that there is no iceberg; only an icicle.”
No voter fraud in 2016 elections
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...803-story.html
A review of documents has shown White House claims to have unearthed “substantial evidence” of voter fraud were false, according to a junior member of Donald Trump’s short-lived commission on election integrity.
As for 3 million illegals voting that is an info wars conspiracy theory right up there with the lizard people and the Queens baby harvest Alex Jones promotes
If one illegal voted, that more actual interferance than Russia had
Is it 3 million? that's unlikely, it's pretty much the highest possible number. There's some, we've caught them, but is i a few hundred, few thousand, hundred thousand? Hard to say.
But let's get back to the point, which is Soros, and which is 1000000% true. Let's hear how we're all supposed to be OK with Soros' activities but PUtin is the End of Days.
Russian "interference" was nothing more than various messages being sent out, with varying degrees of truth, which is really about the same as both parties and every PAC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
now it's illegal and troubling for foreign sources to spend money on our campaigns, but the analogy with Soros is an excellent one.
There's no common ground, however slight, for discussion when one side disregards what amounts to a worldwide consensus to include the majority of both political parties in this country as well as our intelligence network and greatest military minds.
I'm convinced even most in the White House recognize the severity of such an assault on our country. Its certainly not something I would have ever thought a segment of America would defend.
And make no mistake, it is a clear cut defense of Russia's actions because of satisfaction with the result.
Now, history could conceivably show one side of the argument
mistaken...or the other side monumentally and tragically so.
Let me be clear..
I want ZERO interference and ZERO ineligible votes. None, regardless of how small. So the accusation that it is defensable or being defended is 100% inaccurate.
However I find it extremely hypocritical when the US government gets all upset when a foreign government "interfers" in our election after the US has done the same, including to our supposed allies like Israel.
The entire "Russian Interference" ploy is a blown up controversy create to delegitimize the legally elected President. The US was completely aware of Russian interference prior to the election but elected to do nothing about it. Foreign government have long been meddling in election and we have done nothing about it. Hell, the democrats HIRED the Russians to get dirt on Trump and now cry about Russian involvement.. are you f###ing kidding me? And prior to the election, when Hillary had it in the bag with the interference known about, the President's response to this attack on our electoral process was to tell them to "cut it out".
So no, defending the Kremlin isn't what I'm doing. Defending the entire election process is. Im not cherry picking. I dont want foreign involvement, nor do I want illegals votng. I also don't want "vote early, vote often", or dead people voting...regardless of the number. However I also believe in the result. If my guy loses, that life. i live with with. I don't play into Russia's hand and do exactly what they want which is create chaos and undermine the authority of the President.
I don't defend Russian involvement. I'm just not naive enough to see ONLY Russian involvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
I don't get how one side can't understand that apparently too subtle distinction. No one is for foreign involvement in our elections, but when the Clinton Foundation takes in tens of MILLIONS in ILLEGALLY UNREPORTED monies during her election, and there is ZERO investigation, along with dozens of other incidents, and yet we're supposed to focus only on Russian influence and only as it relates to Trump, who is being naive here again?
As for Russia's results, that's on the Left. They have done exactly what Russia wanted to have done, which is to turn their actions into a political wedge issue. NO rallying together against a foreign enemy, but using their pittance of an effort to call for impeachment and political civil war. Who is to blame here again exactly?
Do you see that Washington is up to its armpits in foreign influence, yet this tiny slice is all that is being investigated? You get that's how third world countries operate, where you have a big "corruption trial" for the guy you wanted to send to prison anyway, meanwhile all the other corruption that props up your regime continues?
That's what is happening here, and the defense of the indefensible IMO is those who cannot see that they are being sold a made for TV movie of an investigation where Trump's campaign people are put on trial for stuff 15+ years old, and Clinton's campaign people, who probably committed felony violations of US laws regarding security, are given immunity before being interviewed.
Sorry, but the only naivety I see here is people who can't see the what is going on, and how this is all just politics.
FWIW, that doesn't mean Trump or those around him aren't guilty of something. Woulnd't surprise me, but I know others are equally or far more guilty, and will get a complete walk, and once we use the law selectively for political goals and we lose equality before it, we are done.
Russia won't have a thing to do with that btw, our failure will have come from within, from inability to move past politics and sound bytes and question all that the elites of this country are feeding us.
Is Soros a US citizen? I know he has dual citizenship but soros is an American.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
Putin is not and us the leader a country that would see its interests advanced by the western alliance destabilized.
That is the difference. soros May be dangerous to America. The Nazis coming to DC in a week are too.
But Soros is an American.
So if Putin retires from the Russian Presidency, moves to america and becomes a citizen and spends hundreds of millions influencing our political system, you'll be all good with him then?Quote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
I wasn't aware that the US media coudln't report on people who are dangerous to America even if they were citizens, which was my point. Soros is spending huge sums to push America to a different place, and has vastly more influence than Putin, yet Putin is the only threat being investigated by anyone.
The fact that one is a citizen and one is not does nothing to measure their relative threat to the integrity of America. Nothing at all. It makes Soros' actions more legal per US law, but no less of a threat.
In essence Soros, and a HOST of other super rich people and companies in the US both left and right, are in fact more like foreign agents who don't have to register. Their financial interests are global, not American, so they absolutely don't want "America First", they want America as part of a nice stable system that doesn't rock the boat and mess up their investments.
Have you seen the movie Braveheart? Horribly historically inaccurate, but they did get one thing very right. The Scottish nobles didn't want to go to war with England b/c the English bought them off with lands and titles in england, so they had a vested interest in NOT upsetting England. They were globalists, whose personal financial interests didnt necessarily align with the first interests of Scotland only.
same thing here today. Multinational investors and corporations are the ones moving US technology to China, without too much arm twisting, b/c they want access to those markets and they are investing in plants and equipment there. They don't care if that makes America less competitive compared to China, they have as much money tied up in China now as America.
So while we're all fretting like Chicken Little about Putin spending several million on Facebook ads and bots, Soros and so many more are spending multiples of that, and US politicians are being paid off in billions upon billions of foreign money shuffled through foundations and free trips etc., and nothing is done.
My call isn't to protect Trump or Putin, but to stop acting like that's all that's going on here. That's what they want you to focus on so you don't pull back the carpet and see there's more than one cockroach in the house.
The "independent counsel" Should be investigating ALL foreign influence peddling in Washington, bringing down Trump, the Clintons, anyone who is guilty, but that's not even close to what he is doing.
From the get go this was a laser targeted precision strike, an investigation focusing on a very very narrow aspect of what is really going on here, and that was purposeful b/c if they start focusing on the rest then people with far more power and influence in Washington than Donald Trump would be brought down, and they don't want that at all.
Trump is being targeted b/c he a) is upsetting their apple cart, and b) doesn't have enough political dirt on the Washington elites to stop them.
When people are as outraged over Clinton's people all getting immunity as they are over Manafort doing something 10+ years ago that was reviewed and dismissed at the time BY THESE SAME PEOPLE, then I'll know they're sincere in their statements this is about foreign influence in the US government. Until then it's just political "gotcha" to stop Trump b/c they want Trump stopped so badly, and they really don't care how it's done or what perversion of the justice system it takes to do it.
Violate his civil rights? No problem. Use every dirty prosecutorial tactic available, those usually used only on mob bosses? Sure, he's worse than a mob boss so have after it. Ignore other obvious, even worse, wrongdoing in the process? Sure, we don't want the distractions to change and help Trump.
This is about Trump and the fact that so many are so convinced he's the devil come to Earth. Otherwise everyone would be losing their minds over a lot more than just this one little tiny part of the huge iceberg that is foreign influence in the US government and US elections.
In the end this is all just the Two Minute Hate, where we make Goldstein the enemy of the people, behind every plot and every economic shortfall, and we march his "followers" into courtrooms and make big public trials of convicting them for their crimes.
Erdogan is doing the same in Turkey as we speak. The corrupt know they need to feed the people this stuff from time to time, so they'll continue to believe in the system and its integrity.
But it's a farce. it's obvious the FBI is just as corrupt and full of hubris as it was under Hoover, so certain of its superiority it thinks it can decide what is best for us all. It's obvious the DNC and Clintons were just as in bed with Russia and foreign agents and sources and funds, and in many areas more so, than anything done by Trump, yet not a bit of it will be investigated.
This is classic elitist control tactics, as seen many times past and present and as written about so well by Orwell and many others. they've got everyone agreeing 2 + 2 = 5 on this issue, b/c they dare not let you really see what is going on with all this foreign money.
Our leaders have more lands and titles abroad than they do in the US these days. They're modern day Nobles, sold out to other nations for their treasure, and yet none of them will be involved in this at all. Only Trump, who seems to have at best only minor shreds of ties to anything foreign at all, will be brought down.
Just like how every good Orwellian novel should end.
Some folks have political glasses they refuse to take off to see the entire picture.
And I'm not defending Trump. The truth is I presume that, at that level of politics, every single person who holds that office has some wrongdoing in there somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof
First b/c the laws are deep and wide, and so are their staffs of people, so some stuff is bound to happen. Second, b/c there's too much money and power involved for there not to always exist some corruption. GOing to happen.
But there's a big difference between ferreting out corruption with intent to find corruption and targeting someone and then looking for any corruption you can find to hang on them. that's a perversion of the law, of american principles and of basic civil liberties.
That's why Alan Dershowitz, the most renowned defender of civil rights of our era, finds himself constantly defending Trump. he's a lifelong liberal Democrat, but he is, like the ACLU used to be, non-partisan when it comes to rights and freedoms. He sees what I see, that the law is being distorted to "get Trump" versus an investigation being conducted to find corruption no matter where it leads.
All the corruption and foreign influence issues that have come up all get dropped fast if they point to anyone but Trump. DNC and Clinton fund a guy who then works with Russian agents to "get dirt" on Trump? No, not worth investigating. Russia supposedly hacks the DNC servers but does the FBI or DOJ ever subpoena those servers and records to verify it and conduct an investigation into how and why it happened? Nope.
that's how you know this is a crock. If Mueller were really investigating Russian involvement this would be leading through all kinds of paths by now, including Podesta's brother, the Fusion GPS ties, Uranium One, etc.
We now know the FISA warrant was probably obtained under false pretense, a clear violation of civil rights, yet there is zero coverage or outrage. Why? B/c the target is someone the media and others want to get, so it's OK to violate his rights. Let that happen to Huma Abedin and we'd get an endless daily stream of media outrage at our justice system being undermined by violating her rights.
Hey, if Trump or Manafort or whoever did something wrong then great, go get them. But getting them for jaywalking while someone else of the right political persuasion is over robbing a bank? No, that's not OK, not as a matter of application of the law nor as a matter of basic American values of fairness and equality.
I suspect Trump may have had left handed financial dealings with the wealthy Russian folks, maybe even laundered their money. Did that cause the election outcome to be the way it was? Nope.
At some point the democratic machine needs to understand their candidate lost because she was damaged, both by influence and by manipulating the process. Voters can see that.
Russian influence in our elections has been to plant the seeds of discord. They’ve been wildly successful because people are allowing politics to cloud their view of the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
I felt the same. Soro's being a citizen does make a differnece. But if we are going there, lets. I vividly recall the lefts crying foul over the massive influence reeled by the Kock brothers and the left efforts to squelch such influence, even when it was wielded a US citizen (although just between you and me, we know the dems only opposed it because the majority of their influence was for conservative causes.....otherwise they would have the same objections to Soro's). So influence really isn't the motivation. Its about getting your way. Politicans want their side to have the advantage, not the other side. When the other side does, cry foul. Same thing with talk radio. Left got all in a tizzy over Rush Limbaugh's influence and tried to limit it. In the Russia deal, the problem I have, and I suspect CBBN would agree, is that the Clinton's were fine using Russia's aid, as was the DNC....they sought it out, used a dossier created by a Russian operative to get dirt on Trump, the federal gov't used that Russian created dossier to get a FISA warrant on Trump and yet this investigation into Russian influence into our election is focused strictly on Trump. If Trump is dirty, fine. Nail him, and I mean that so long as every other son of a butch who is guilty is also investigated with the exact same zest and zeal regardless of what party they belong to, who they are connected to and what their last name isQuote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory