I did not know that wanting to be a dictator was illegal

Politically undesirable maybe, but illegal?

"He is a dictator,” Nadler said Friday evening, arguing Trump wants to be “all powerful” and not respect Congress. “This must not stand. And that is why -- another reason -- he must be removed from office."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sen...-day-democrats

I guess having a toxic environment is against the law as well

"There's a toxic mess at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and I humbly suggest that it's our collective job on behalf of the American people to try to clean it up," Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, D-N.Y., said. "President Trump tried to cheat. He got caught and then he worked hard to cover it up."

See my post on the other thread. What is this concept of "cheating" in an election?

Would it be cheating to, say, spend millions going to Russian intelligence operatives to dig up fake dirt then giving it to the FBI to kick off an illegal investigation based on fraudulent reports to the FISA court, then leaking it all to the press?

Would that be "interfering" in an election? Has anyone been brought to trial for that yet?

What about when Presidents engage in complete military maneuvers to help themselves in elections? that's happened before too. People actually die in those events, is that "cheating"?

I don't know if there's ever been a concept of "cheating" before in politics. There's legal, then there's illegal, but "cheating"? Maybe stuffing ballot boxes, which happens often. Like California letting handlers gather up hordes of absentee ballots and never checking if actual voters cast those votes without influence, or cast them at all.

Now that's cheating.

Trump is simply offensive to the Left, and they want him gone. By any means necessary, including making up the most grandiose tales about him, none of which have proven the least bit true. But people still believe them.

He's an ass, he's rude, he's unsophisticated and most definitely not "Presidential" in the modern sense, but he's not any of these extreme things either.

Hate him for the right reasons if you want to hate him, not for the made up ones. Unfortunately, the real reasons aren't enough to impeach and remove him, which I think is why people go for the made up ones.

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Originally Posted by dan_bgblue

Politically undesirable maybe, but illegal?

"He is a dictator,” Nadler said Friday evening, arguing Trump wants to be “all powerful” and not respect Congress. “This must not stand. And that is why -- another reason -- he must be removed from office."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sen...-day-democrats

I guess having a toxic environment is against the law as well

"There's a toxic mess at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and I humbly suggest that it's our collective job on behalf of the American people to try to clean it up," Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, D-N.Y., said. "President Trump tried to cheat. He got caught and then he worked hard to cover it up."

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The toxic mess seems to be a result of holdover government employees that went from political appointees to permanent government employees in the Obama administration.

Neither is quid pro quo

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Originally Posted by Doc

Neither is quid pro quo

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Only it Trump does it. Biden can stand up in a crowded room with video cameras and admit to it and it's OK.

Wanting to "take somebody out" isn't a crime either. Wanting and doing are two different things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dan_bgblue

Politically undesirable maybe, but illegal?

"He is a dictator,” Nadler said Friday evening, arguing Trump wants to be “all powerful” and not respect Congress. “This must not stand. And that is why -- another reason -- he must be removed from office."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sen...-day-democrats

I guess having a toxic environment is against the law as well

"There's a toxic mess at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and I humbly suggest that it's our collective job on behalf of the American people to try to clean it up," Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, D-N.Y., said. "President Trump tried to cheat. He got caught and then he worked hard to cover it up."

---

When a president begins to push the boundaries of presidential authority as a person who answers to no one, that person is a threat to the very liberty of every single citizen.

Congress for decades has acquiesced to the power of the executive increasingly to its detriment. Too often Congress has relied too much on the opinions of generals and rubber stamping presidential decisions that should be carried out by Congress.

Most presidents, going back to Jefferson with the Louisiana Purchase have tried to exert more authority than the Constitution allows.

None have showed less knowledge of the Constitution or such disregard. When McCarthy was asked during the Congressional Committee on the Army if he had no shame or decency, he did not respond. This president with his every breath says no.

Even where I am ok with some of his policies the president treatment of the executive warrants check on his authority.

Too often he is diverting funds authorized by Congress for specific purposes and moving those funds under the protection of executive authority that abuses emergency powers.

This GOP by rubber stamping his agenda will, after the conclusion of this trial, embolden Trump to even great excesses in exerting authority.

He has "joked" about staying in power beyond the two terms. If he loses the election, he won't accept the defeat graciously or willingly. He will cry voter fraud. Just like Bevin tried to do.

Will the government, will Mitch and the Senate, support this action.

A lot of disagree on the very facts at hand. My reddest of lines in the sand is if Trump loses will he leave peacefully? I think he won't.

If he loses will you stand with him or the Constitution? It is a hypothetical. But it is one that my tin foil hat wearing self has feared since he came to office.

Glad to be proven wrong. But yes. Wanting to be dictator is wrong. If as president you work towards that end it is impeachable and certainly a violation of the Constitution and his oath of office.

Did you think Obama was a dictator when he told Congress he would legislate with his cell phone and a pen?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

When a president begins to push the boundaries of presidential authority as a person who answers to no one, that person is a threat to the very liberty of every single citizen.

Congress for decades has acquiesced to the power of the executive increasingly to its detriment. Too often Congress has relied too much on the opinions of generals and rubber stamping presidential decisions that should be carried out by Congress.

Most presidents, going back to Jefferson with the Louisiana Purchase have tried to exert more authority than the Constitution allows.

None have showed less knowledge of the Constitution or such disregard. When McCarthy was asked during the Congressional Committee on the Army if he had no shame or decency, he did not respond. This president with his every breath says no.

Even where I am ok with some of his policies the president treatment of the executive warrants check on his authority.

Too often he is diverting funds authorized by Congress for specific purposes and moving those funds under the protection of executive authority that abuses emergency powers.

This GOP by rubber stamping his agenda will, after the conclusion of this trial, embolden Trump to even great excesses in exerting authority.

He has "joked" about staying in power beyond the two terms. If he loses the election, he won't accept the defeat graciously or willingly. He will cry voter fraud. Just like Bevin tried to do.

Will the government, will Mitch and the Senate, support this action.

A lot of disagree on the very facts at hand. My reddest of lines in the sand is if Trump loses will he leave peacefully? I think he won't.

If he loses will you stand with him or the Constitution? It is a hypothetical. But it is one that my tin foil hat wearing self has feared since he came to office.

Glad to be proven wrong. But yes. Wanting to be dictator is wrong. If as president you work towards that end it is impeachable and certainly a violation of the Constitution and his oath of office.

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Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof

Did you think Obama was a dictator when he told Congress he would legislate with his cell phone and a pen?

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Or that Hillary and the DNC has been undermining the Constitution for 3 years b/c they disputed the election outcome? Surely no one has done more to undermine confidence in elections than Trump's opposition.

I'm sure Trump will tweet and bitch for years if he loses. Will it matter? No more than Hillary going on the road and bitching about it for 3 years or the massive national fraud of claiming the Russians tipped the election to Trump, which was done out of nothing but pure political motives with no evidence.

Is he going to try to order the military to surround the White House and refuse to leave? Come on now.

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Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof

Did you think Obama was a dictator when he told Congress he would legislate with his cell phone and a pen?

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I think Obama's excessive use of executive orders was leading us down this road. But as he was just too weak and inexperienced to realize that type of power-- so no. Not to this extent. But the Imperial Presidency takes us down this road. Throw in the statutes like the Patriot Act and a Congress that either obstructs the opposition or rubber stamps their guy and we have a Caesar in the making.

A man who knows how to be a dictator would not have let McConnell hold a supreme court seat. Whether it was Reid before or McConnell now such a move violates the Constitution in my mind.

Mitch obstructed on legitimate policy points as well spite to try and keep an overall popular president from being re-elected. I say overall popular as I know Barry wasn't well liked in hard line Republican states but had solid numbers due to the coasts being so liberal.

As for Trump, a man that has never held or run for office before has a greater grasp on sheer naked power than anyone outside of McConnell. He has the combination of stupidity and arrogance to be a first rate, third world tyrant.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

I think Obama's excessive use of executive orders was leading us down this road. But as he was just too weak and inexperienced to realize that type of power-- so no. Not to this extent. But the Imperial Presidency takes us down this road. Throw in the statutes like the Patriot Act and a Congress that either obstructs the opposition or rubber stamps their guy and we have a Caesar in the making.

A man who knows how to be a dictator would not have let McConnell hold a supreme court seat. Whether it was Reid before or McConnell now such a move violates the Constitution in my mind.

Mitch obstructed on legitimate policy points as well spite to try and keep an overall popular president from being re-elected. I say overall popular as I know Barry wasn't well liked in hard line Republican states but had solid numbers due to the coasts being so liberal.

As for Trump, a man that has never held or run for office before has a greater grasp on sheer naked power than anyone outside of McConnell. He has the combination of stupidity and arrogance to be a first rate, third world tyrant.

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If holding up legislation etc. for political reasons is an issue, then every Congress in history is in trouble. It's a wonder anything ever happens due to the fact that 99% of policy moves are for party political reasons.

Sure Mitch tried to keep Obama from being re-elected, just as now the Democrats are trying to stop Trump. That's as old as government.

Trump is nowhere near the level of "pure naked power" of many past Presidents. LBJ comes to mind, but the Kennedy family was well acquainted with the use of power in ways Trump can only imagine.

Trump will wail and complain if he loses, he'll gloat like a fool if he wins, but he's not going to seize the government.

LBJ actually is quoted as saying "If only I could be dictator of the world..."

LBJ had a love of country I don't see in this man. And that opinion colors or discolors everything he does.

And McConnell greatly injures his character when works to oppose everything as opposed to try and find common ground to allow government to work

McConnell doesn’t take that prize. The left in both houses have thwarted anything and everything this current administration has tried to do. He may have helped set the tone, but what is going on now is off the chain.
I’m not a fan of the current and last administrations that have held residence at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW. However, I’m beyond pissed at both houses of this particular Congress for not getting anything done....and I know I’m not the only one either.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

LBJ actually is quoted as saying "If only I could be dictator of the world..."

LBJ had a love of country I don't see in this man. And that opinion colors or discolors everything he does.

And McConnell greatly injures his character when works to oppose everything as opposed to try and find common ground to allow government to work

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

LBJ actually is quoted as saying "If only I could be dictator of the world..."

LBJ had a love of country I don't see in this man. And that opinion colors or discolors everything he does.

And McConnell greatly injures his character when works to oppose everything as opposed to try and find common ground to allow government to work

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He didn't much love the 52,000 Americans he helped kill. Don't mean to sound snarky, and I apologize b/c that's not directed at you at all but just punch for perspective on past Presidents. Trump would just about have to do and be everything you fear before he's as bad a POTUS as Johnson. Trump is at least trying to get us out of all these conflicts, not into more. (in fact that's part of why Bolton is in play, b/c Trump refused to go after Iran)

But that is my point. We've had Presidents engage in military conflict to help themselves. LBJ put a 25% tariff on medium duty trucks in part b/c the UAW then promised to not call a strike before his election. This kind of thing is commonplace, and that "love of country" you don't see in Trump I surely don't see in LBJ.

Trump does seem to put America first so far in 3 years, as opposed to globalists like Obama who go on tour to apologize for US behavior. Is that love of country or blame America first?

IS the intelligence community showing "love of country" when they push fake intelligence to manipulate us into wars? They did in Iraq, are pushing for it in Iran? Trump has tried to get our troops home. That's more love of country than anything LBJ did, letting McNamara and the Harvard a-holes run a war while our kids bled for nothing.

As for Mitch, that's politics these days. The day Trump got elected the Democratic leaders declared "Resistance" to do everything they could to slow walk everything, even Trump's own cabinet positions, just to do everything to keep him from accomplishing anything.

What Mitch has done is pretty normal politics and he hasn't done near as much knee jerk opposing of anything as we've seen from the Democrats the last 3 years, and yes I imagine when the GOP is back in that position they will be as bad or worse, b/c that's the nature of politics now.

I think the two parties should work together where they can. I'm curious what legislation you think Mitch should have done differently, where he just disagreed to disagree and not b/c he and the GOP actually disagreed.

In the end I judge on actions, not words. LBJ said the right things but buried us in the worst military conflict in our national history. Trump talks a lot of trash, but his results have been stellar, including trying to get us out of places like Afghanistan, where we will be till the Rapture if we don't do something different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

LBJ actually is quoted as saying "If only I could be dictator of the world..."

LBJ had a love of country I don't see in this man. And that opinion colors or discolors everything he does.

And McConnell greatly injures his character when works to oppose everything as opposed to try and find common ground to allow government to work

---

Are you saying you don’t see love of country in a man who campaigns on making the country great again? He’s a man who is standing up for Americans whose jobs were sent out of the country due to poor trade agreements. He has stood up for American farmers who haven’t gotten a fair shake in any trade deal in 40 years. The only jobs he isn’t protecting are those people within a 45 mile radius of DC who haven’t contributed a damn thing to the American economy. I’m not a fan of Trump the person. But, his actions have the support of those in the country who have been screwed by the unbridled bureaucrats in Washington who have contributed nothing positive to this country.

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Originally Posted by MickintheHam

Are you saying you don’t see love of country in a man who campaigns on making the country great again? He’s a man who is standing up for Americans whose jobs were sent out of the country due to poor trade agreements. He has stood up for American farmers who haven’t gotten a fair shake in any trade deal in 40 years. The only jobs he isn’t protecting are those people within a 45 mile radius of DC who haven’t contributed a damn thing to the American economy. I’m not a fan of Trump the person. But, his actions have the support of those in the country who have been screwed by the unbridled bureaucrats in Washington who have contributed nothing positive to this country.

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And who have sold us out to the global corporations and big money interests. I know that sounds like a tagline of an extremist, but it's fundamentally true.

It's like the movie Braveheart, where the Scottish nobles had as much money coming in from their English lands and titles that they had no desire to defend Scotland. Big corporations and money interests on Wall Street have as much invested in China as they do here, they don't care if it's China that succeeds at our expense, they make money regardless.

And that's obvious. Google helps China write software to track their citizens, refuses to work with the US military. Apple, etc. all agree to terms in China to enter the market including large scale technology transfer.

I don't know a lot of people who like Trump the person, but I know a ton of folks who like what he's trying to accomplish in draining a deeply corrupt and self absorbed Washington.

I see a blowhard who stole a lesser known Reagan slogan who talks a big game but behaves like a gangster. .

He has hurt farmers. He winds up putting them on a glorified welfare. I see a bully who has stimulated the economy to his credit with a certain amount of deregulation.

Damn his soul to hell.

Oh he's a total blowhard, and yes he acts like a new York street brawler.

He's only "hurt" farmers in the short run. In the long run if he gets better trade deals they're way better off. That's a valid strategic effort.

Hating the guy so much you ignore his success is misplaced IMO. The truth is for all his blustering distraction he's actually done a lot of good and very little harm in terms of policy.

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Hating the guy so much you ignore his success is misplaced IMO. The truth is for all his blustering distraction he's actually done a lot of good and very little harm in terms of policy.

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And for the most part, the good he has done has been done without the help of, and in most cases after protracted fights with the other 535 elected servants in DC

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Originally Posted by dan_bgblue

And for the most part, the good he has done has been done without the help of, and in most cases after protracted fights with the other 535 elected servants in DC

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Yep. In truth most of what he has managed to accomplish has been almost single handed as the GOP has so many anti-Trump and pro-establishment members it's hard to get their backing on anything major.

He hasn't come close to draining the swamp, but he's sure as hell in the swamp doing battle with them. that's why this continuous blowback from the various bureaucracies.

Ideally this impeachment will end quickly, and Mitch can turn to getting more judges appointed and at least one other major piece of legislation for the election.

If I were the GOP and Trump I'd work on a health care package he can run on in November, but I imagine it will be another tax cut plan.

I think that is the cherry on top of the hate the left has for him to be perfectly honest.

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Originally Posted by dan_bgblue

And for the most part, the good he has done has been done without the help of, and in most cases after protracted fights with the other 535 elected servants in DC

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Hate is an ugly thing. It seems the Dems, the bureaucrats and left leaning celebs are consumed by it. May their hearts be turned.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

I see a blowhard who stole a lesser known Reagan slogan who talks a big game but behaves like a gangster. .

He has hurt farmers. He winds up putting them on a glorified welfare. I see a bully who has stimulated the economy to his credit with a certain amount of deregulation.

Damn his soul to hell.

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When a despot goes unchecked and is cheered, idolized, imitated at the expense of liberty and the Constitution those who see the truth are consumed with righteous justice.

This man is a danger to the country. And he must be removed from office through all legal means.

It appears the party I was a member of is no more. Licking at the boots of a tyrant.

It is a sad, sad day. America...we had a good run.

Nothing demonstrates he is a threat to the country. He is a threat to our enemies both externally and in DC. The Deep State is threatened by his presence in office. As soon as I think of anything that could possibly be wrong with that I’ll let you know.

Anyone who took an oath to defend the Constitution and who doesn’t look to personally profit for his or her public office takes offense at him.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

Anyone who took an oath to defend the Constitution and who doesn’t look to personally profit for his or her public office takes offense at him.

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You sound like the millionaire Clintons, or the millionaire Pelosi, or the millionaire Sanders, or the millonaire Warren, etc. All who made millios while in the service of the American populace. Only Trump entered politics as a millionaire. The others did it AFTER entering the political arena

Quote:

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

When a despot goes unchecked and is cheered, idolized, imitated at the expense of liberty and the Constitution those who see the truth are consumed with righteous justice.

This man is a danger to the country. And he must be removed from office through all legal means.

It appears the party I was a member of is no more. Licking at the boots of a tyrant.

It is a sad, sad day. America...we had a good run.

---

Been waiting three years to hear what despotic thing he has done and how he has endangered the country. Other than his tweets I have gotten no response.

No, the truth is that in 3 years he has proven that he's not a threat to the country, he's not upending the Constitution, declaring himself king, etc. It's absolutely unfounded speculation not worthy of tin foil hats.

NATO? Nope, it's stronger than ever with spending up. China? Battling them over trade as we should. Our allies? Haven't lost one yet. World war? Trump is trying to get us OUT of those conflicts. Like the Wendy's lady said, where's the beef ?

yet we keep hearing that mantra, despite having zero evidence whatsoever that he's done anything different than most any other President in how he wields power.

People are blinded of the facts by their sheer conviction. Leftism is fast becoming a religion, a rather ugly one where those who dissent are to be stoned, and their absolute certainty of their righteousness allows them to dismiss the empirical evidence when it becomes inconvenient.

Trump is an ass, but he's not a threat to America itself. What he absolutely is that those on the Left do not like is a messenger that at least half the country absolutely doesn't agree with those on the Left.

And that's why they hate Trump. Not really b/c of his persona or rudeness, but b/c he is living proof that a big part of this country still believes in free minds and free markets and rejects the modern Leftist agenda.

In that sense Trump's ad is right. They don't hate Trump. They hate Us. Trump is just in the way. And I very much believe that, b/c the disdain for the "flyover" is palpable across our media and political landscape and was long before Trump was ever POTUS.

They hate him b/c when he says those things, tens of millions of Americans cheer and agree.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

Anyone who took an oath to defend the Constitution and who doesn’t look to personally profit for his or her public office takes offense at him.

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You are in an area that is far less likely to be corrupted, b/c you don't control enough money and power that's of interest.

Our nation's intelligence apparatus, the military spending, the Congress, those areas are rife with deep state corruption b/c they control who wins and loses hundreds of billions of dollars.

Those people are only offended b/c he may mess up their gravy train. Anyone who thinks most of those in those groups lay awake at night worrying about how to best defend the Constitution are just naive. I've hung out with many from all of those areas over the years and not one ever mentioned something so high minded. That's just not how politics works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

Anyone who took an oath to defend the Constitution and who doesn’t look to personally profit for his or her public office takes offense at him.

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That doesn’t explain why the DC crowd is offended by him, does it?

It explains me. It explains my code of Honor. My patriotism. And if given personal cause, at work my resistance.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

It explains me. It explains my code of Honor. My patriotism. And if given personal cause, at work my resistance.

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So you are willing to violate your oath if you, individually, simply disagree with the policies of a duly elected President.

Seems you're pretty selective about the parts of the Constitution you defend and ignore. that section on how the President is elected by the People isn't getting much weight.

I've asked many times before with absolutely zero answers, but what part of the Constitution is Trump subverting that requires anyone in to choose the Constitution over him?

And remember, policy disputes aren't Constitutional issues. What court order has he ignored? What laws has he suspended? What use of force has he ordered against US citizens?

When he does that you'll have a case. What you have now is just a personal belief he MAY do that at some point, and thus you are justified in "resisting" the policies implemented by the current representative of The People.

There are times when a man of good conscience must refuse an order, and when citizens must defend the Constitution against a politician, but the notion that now is that time and Trump is that person is just nonsense. Total nonsense.

Obama overstepped more than Trump has with the law, and got away with it b/c of a fawning media and many judges, but even that isn't some vast threat to the nation and Constitution bc Presidents and the Congress have been doing that for all of its history.

There's simply no "there" there, and you have no corner on patriotism or defense of the Constitution simply b/c you think Trump is evil without any actual evidence.

The People decide the laws and policies of this land, through the representation of the elected officials, not you. Trump is their personal and direct representative, and it is the job of those in the administrative branch to carry out those policies as they are, for all intent and purpose, the policies of The People. If the people decide they don't like that direction they can change it every 4 years.

The idea that you or any bureaucrat can decide what is or is not Constitutional against the will of the elected representative of this land is far more dangerous to the Constitution than anything you think Trump is doing.

In your area maybe it doesn't get anyone killed, but that same attitude in the intelligence community has started wars. It is a dangerous way to think and is exactly why Trump was elected: b/c people in DC think they have an exclusive insight into what is right and wrong, Constitutional and not, and many Americans are sick to death of that viewpoint.

There are times to resist a superior, either civilian or military, but there's no evidence this is one of those times and none has been presented for 3 years.

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

Anyone who took an oath to defend the Constitution and who doesn’t look to personally profit for his or her public office takes offense at him.

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I have stayed away from here for a long time, but History, this is way beneath where you used to be. I guess what you really were was a McCain fan, not anything other than a rhino. If you want to look at who has profited, look no further than the Obamas, how else do you own a multi million dollar home right out of office and then buy a $15 million dollar home in his vacation spot in Maine. Think Newsome in California, Pelosi in California...you need to search the connection between those two and their family history, search Sanders and see how his family and his wifes family have profited from his time in office, how about the clintons and that $300 million in their charity that went to them, their daughter, think about Schiff, Nadler, they not only lie constantly but think they have profited a bunch. And the Bidens, search that family if you want to see profit from a position. I am not saying republicans are much better but don't throw stones at one party while thinking your liberals are saints. How else does a black congressmen from Miss, Benny , go from mayor of very small town Bolton..paid about $30,000 per year...and within 6 years had a net worth of over $2 million and more than Lott or Cochran who had been lawyers and long time senators at that point. Benny is as dirty as they come. The swamp hates Trump, because he can't be bought and he is running the country like a business, finally. And your boy LBJ, not only a racist pig, but a big time crook, why do you think he kept us in the Vietnam war for so long? Wake up before you end up in a mental hospital.

Nice to see you jazy

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Originally Posted by MickintheHam

That doesn’t explain why the DC crowd is offended by him, does it?

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There are some of us.

Jazy

Always great to hear from you. They ain’t my liberal saints. Some wars make strange bed fellows. I like Pelosi. After never liking her.

Trump to me is sheer naked power. An evil and vile man.

Problem is too many on both sides play a game. They attack each other, demonize one another until when we finally have wolf in with the chickens, we can’t really tell.

Trump is worse because in my mind he has good people like you standing by him.

He is poisoning The heart of the country

God bless you. Whatever you think of me, I have great respect and affection for you

Great to see you commenting Jazy!

Jazy you name the real people who have put this country in danger. All of them are scary people. My lasted add to the people who have put us in danger are George Clooney and his wife who represented the losing candidate in the Ukraine. No doubt in my mind that Obama was monkeying in Ukraine politics up to his eyeballs. How anyone can excuse the Obamas, Clinton’s or Biden’s is beyond me. These are the scary people.

Welcome back, jazy.