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I think the original GOP plan until Pelosi came back to town had more money going directly into Americans pockets. I thought the threshold was those single filers under $99,000 would receive money, and joint filers under $150,000 would receive money. Also, I thought the original amount proposed was higher per child?Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
I'm not a Republican other than in registration so I can vote. I'm a Libertarian, but the Libertarian party is overrun with too many wingnuts to be of use.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
I end up on the GOP side simply b/c on average they will be closer to the Libertarian position.
I used to defend the GOP on fiscal/foreign policy issues (i tend to be more real politik on foreign affairs than most Libertarians), and the Democrats on most social issues.
The Democrats have in the last 5 or so years gone utterly off the page on a national level so now even on social issues the Left has become as totalitarian or even moreso than the New Right was in the 80s with Falwell et al. I railed against them then, but they are now an afterthought in the GOP power structure compared to the New Left totalitarianism of thought we see.
I defend Trump a lot on here simply b/c the guy gets a lot of bad rap due to his personality. it's patently absurd to think he's plotting to overthrow the government or declare himself King. he's an asshat, I don't like him personally, most of what he says has the intellectual sophistication of bathroom humor, but he's not a "dictator" or "subverting democracy" etc. and for the most part his policies have been reasonable and mostly in the direction I want as a Libertarian.
As a Libertarian what I despise is the concentration of power, the control of the elites, the selling out of America by global corporations that are as much Chinese now as they are American, the repression of free markets (by government and those corporations), putting social justice above liberty, etc.
So I don't like the GOP leadership much more than I do the Democrats. It's just that they happen to implement policies closer to the vision of this country, if only by a little bit at times.
Despite inferences and conclusions here, I'm far more neutral on this Democrat/Republican thing than you would ever imagine. If I were in charge we'd wipe out so much government it wouldn't much matter who was in charge, they wouldn't have the power to do anything.
And yes, it is a strawman fallacy. Not sure what you mean by having to have agreed upon facts, but that has nothing to do with the definition of the strawman fallacy. The strawman fallacy is when a person claims the other side has taken a position and then attacks that position, when that position was never in fact taken.
No one here claimed moral superiority. Next week it may be the GOP that does this political nonsense, and I said all along there is some of it everything. But this was extremely excessive. Putting in funding for the NEA and the Kennedy Center in this bill? Oh please.
Hell, even the guy who WROTE the Green New Deal has called the airline emissions thing "stupid". he's surely as left as you can get and even he said it was wrong to address it in this legislation as this was about saving jobs and the economy, and was meaningless in doing anything to abate climate change. When that guy calls it out as a baseless political move you know you've done it.
People here would die to have known me in the 1980s when the New Right was riding high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof
I rail against the restriction of our rights, and against sacrificing individual liberty for some current iteration of "social justice", which is just a nice way of saying equality of outcomes, which is of course the fundamental guiding principle of socialism and communism.
When Bush II and the then GOP were spending like drunk sailors being Democrat Lite I railed against that on here too. When the GOP impeached Clinton I thought it was idiotic and a waste, even if technically yes there was a valid case as he committed a felony. It just wasn't enough of a felony to distract the nation and undermine the Office to the global community.
I've called Trump every name in the book on here for 3 years, but I won't accuse him of things that are simply not supported by the facts either.
Is he the smartest POTUS ever? Uh, no. But is he less fit than Carter or Bush II? Absolutely not. He's not 1/100the the pig LBJ was ether personally or in his utter disregard for American lives. As Presidents go he's been solid but not exceptional.
That's just my objective view, I feel no need to defend him as part of "my side" or my tribe b/c I'm not part of his tribe. He's useful to me in that his judicial appointments are going to be by and large less activist and Leftist. Everything else is gravy, as I said before the election.
but this current move by Pelosi and the Dem leadership is beyond the poltical pale, and I assure you if it were the GOP doing it I'd be just as mad. If there as border wall funding in this thing or deportation changes or spending some new tank the military doesn't even want then I'd be just as furious.
But they simply didn't to that this time. They didn't.
IF the Democrats stuck to only negotiating the key points Kingcat listed then fine, but they had LAST WEEK for Schumer and Pelosi to weigh in while this thing was in 5 committees with both GOP and Dems.
They DID all that last week, then after the deal was thought to be done they blew it up. They timed that for the leverage of it, to get more concessions. I'm no fool, I know how it works, they thought doing it this way would put pressure on Trump and the GOP as it usually does.
But it didn't this time. Come to find out the media was tepid at best to the move and Trump's numbers are way up right now as Americans tend to rally around the flag and the sitting POTUS in times of crisis.
They miscalculated and it blew up in their face. They got a few minor changes in the bill so they can come out last night declaring victory like they somehow put workers in the bill, when they were there from the start.
Like the man said, don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. The Dems had to find a way to get out of this mess of their own making. that House bill made them look TERRIBLE to any casual observer other than their pet interest groups who pushed for those things and they didn't realize it until they pulled the trigger Sunday night.
If you want to hear a libertarian rail against the president, I’ll oblige that too. He’s absolutely bat$hit crazy to suggest the economy will re-open by April 13th.
We are In the new normal until an existing drug or a vaccine becomes available. Vaccine is 12-18 months out. A lot of suggestion of existing drugs, or a cocktail of those drugs is going on currently. Nothing but trial and error....and time and I don’t see how it clears up in the next 3 weeks....
It sure won't be 3 weeks. I know a lot of Trump supporters given I live in kentucky, and none of them think that's even close to being reality. 3 or 4 times that may not be close, and everyone knows it.
I get his motives, but like his other comments that it was licked, etc. he's just so naturally exaggerating in everything and this is one place where it's a real detriment. It's ignored when he describes the Ukraine call as "perfect" or his Administration as "the best ever" b/c it means nothing. But this is not a place for such frivolous rhetoric.
The good news is that policy wise nothing will come of it. With Trump I try to ignore his words and just focus on what he does. His actions are really pretty solid, if he'd just shut up.
I find it funny that many on the left love Cuomo's pressers. Today he spoke about not being scared and how we will persevere. Then he spoke about the unique nature of New Yorkers and why they are so exceptional. Then he discussed the shortages of ventilators and mentioned that none were available because some were being hoarded. Next when asked about the ventilators NY just recieved and where they, he mentioned they are being stored in various locations until a hospital calls and requests one. I came away confused because he mentioned numerous times about supplies being hoarded and that there were no stockpiles of ventilators then talked about all the reserve ventilators NY has in reserve (aka stockpiled and hoarded) :thinking2::sCo_huhsign:
But the topper was when he suggested he was glad that NY was where the biggest hot spot was because of the exceptionaism of NYers. Trump utters glad and it is suddenly reported he is glad there is an outbreak! Much like his "hoax" comment, it is report way differnet than it is said.
I don't take much of Trumps comments as anything more than wishful thinking/hoping, or best case scenario. Being doom and gloom is not what a leader does. Be optimistic and inspiring. Imagine Churchhill saying the Germans are going to be bombing the hell out of us for a year. Hunker down and maybe we get thru it! Should he exaggerate? Nope. And is he the greatest (fill in the blank)? Nope. There are many people smarter then him too. But policy-wise he is listening to those in the know (and taking some credit for it) and the decisions made seem to be correct thus far. His racist policy of closing the boarders was smart and likely bought significant time. His leaving much to the states over federalization was also very wise. He has gone all in to help states even to the point where Cuomo has little to complain about was also great. Personally I'm all in on his calling out China for the CHINA FLU! and holding them accountable. Apparently, based on his approval of his handling, most American's agree (60% was the last number I heard which is shocking considering 50% hate everything he does regardless). Likely more an illustration on the lack of leadership shown by the left than anything
Republicans now holding things up.
Sen. Graham said they learned the details of the deal during a 92-minute conference call Senate Republicans had on Wednesday morning.
They are asking for a vote on an amendment that would cap unemployment benefits at 100 percent of a person's salary.
Their demand sparked immediate bipartisan pushback.
Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) tweeted: "Let's not over-complicate this. Several Republican Senators are holding up the bipartisan Coronavirus emergency bill because they think the bill is too good for laid off Americans."
A Senate GOP aide pushed back against the four senators, underscoring the divisions within the caucus, saying that "nothing in this bill incentivizes businesses to lay off employees, in fact it's just the opposite."
"Each state has a different UI program, so the drafters opted for a temporary across-the-board UI boost of $600, which can deliver needed aid in a timely manner rather than burning time to create a different administrative regime for each state. ...
It's also important to remember that nobody who voluntarily leaves an available job is eligible for UI," the aide added.
Bare with me as its pretty confusing but, the key word is temporary and the advantage is its guaranteed and quick, and everyone can draw at least 100 percent of their wage.
That, while some will draw more than their wage.
And all because each state's system is different and it would take some time to redo each system to a universal federally mandated one.
Instead, this serves as a temporary way to get wages to every American worker quickly.
is that correct?
Im not arguing right or wrong by the way nor whats best for the economy. As most here have stated, getting the help to people quickly is of utmost importance. That's the reason implied in the article anyway.
Kentucky UE gives you roughly 50-60% of what you earn. that's really rough, but a good thumbnail.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
So say you make $40,000K a year. That's about $1,500 bi-weekly or $750/wk. UE in Kentucky would give you about $475 per week at that rate (very rough).
But now you get $600 per week on top of that, no questions asked. So if I lay off a $40K per year worker they go UP from $750/wk to $1,075 per week, making $325 MORE per week. that's BIG. You go from roughly $18.75 per hour to $26.90 per hour.
From my numbers you'd have to make north of $55K a year before this isn't a net win to be laid off.
The unintended consequences of that is what Graham fears, and I fear he's right. That's a HUGE incentive to not work versus work.
My staff will be coming to me asking us to shut down. Who wouldn't? you don't work and you make MORE?
that GOP staff guy is an idiot. Sure they can't just quit and do it, but they sure can be pissed off at me to high Heaven for not laying them off and having them come in and work.
Wouldn't you prefer to be off work for 2 months and then come back? Would you be good with a boss not working with you on that deal?
Hell, they'll be offering to game the system. "Hey boss, I'll come in and work my hours, you just lay me off and let me get this raise for 2 months and we'll love ya forever."
What a damned mess.
I'm THRILLED at the idea of supplementing UE with federal money. Cutting millions to 50-60% of their income is a very bad idea right now. I'm good up to 100% due to the situation. I hated the idea of my staff having to take so much less if faced with that situation.
But for a $40K a year person to get about a 40% RAISE for 2 months if they dont' work?
Boy howdy, that's a bad idea. Only in Washington can an entire Senate full of members and staff sit around for a week and come up with that scheme.
And then apparently some of the key members don't even know about it. Now THAT is a screw up worthy of criticism. This should have been clear and addressed last week in committee. For them to just now figure it out is absolutely a failure.
But it's a failure, not a political ploy.
I guess the question is, what is meant by temporary. If it is for two or three months I doubt it would affect the job force.
It would seem the wise thing to do is for each state to upgrade their existing systems as quick as possible. And then for Congress to revisit the provision.
The exact quote from the GOP aide..
"Each state has a different UI program, so the drafters opted for a temporary across-the-board UI boost of $600, which can deliver needed aid in a timely manner rather than burning time to create a different administrative regime for each state. ... It's also important to remember that nobody who voluntarily leaves an available job is eligible for UI,"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartandhp
There is no excuse for the right to play politics either. There is enough federal apparatus in place to police it if necessary. This isn’t the time nor the place....smh
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisette.../#179064f072b1
It will have a huge impact right away if you want to order pizza.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
Papa Johns etc are hiring a LOT of people right now. There's absolutely no incentive for those laid off to get off unemployment and take those jobs with this kind of increase.
The answer from those on the other side is they can just raise wages. Sure. You don't mind paying $30 for that pizza do you instead of $15?
It's going to put a huge kink in the workforce shift we need for those "temporary" months.
Say you make a relatively average wage, like $11-14/hr. That's about a $20-$25K per year type job. In Kentucky you'd go from say $450/wk to about $225/wk. Now you go to $225+600 or $875 per week. Now you're making $20-$22/hour.
Do you sit at home and draw $20/hour or do you go work at Papa John's for half that?
That's about what Papa John's now pays, maybe a bit more than double. So to get those workers they have to double their cost at least.
So that $15 pie is now $30. We're all good with that right?
This is why "guaranteed minimum incomes" and such are such a problem. You know what happens when you give everyone a big check? Prices go up the same proportion, and we have inflation.
Inflation will be tough in this economy under these conditions, but there's no doubt food delivery and such will still really struggle to attract workers.
It's going to cause all kinds of havoc.
Oh, and wait till next April when people figure out they owe taxes on that money and that this bump may have moved them a bracket. that'll be another bill to fix that stuff.
This isn't playing politics. it is a HUGE failure of the process last week to inform the Senators of what was being negotiated so this was all resolved in the process already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof
In the end Graham is right. This will be a fiasco at the local level.
Now, should they hold their nose and vote for it? Probably. IMO he needed to go to the leadership, find out this is in fact a sticking point, and then let it go if it was.
That being said the debate is happening now, the vote should fail, and then a simple majority vote. It's not days, but there's no doubt it's a failure of the staff to really make sure all their bosses understood what was being done.
Graham's objection is very, VERY valid, but it should have been raised last week. That's the failure here.
And fwiw, just putting everyone at 100% of their salary was going to already make it hard to hire those workers. This is a matter of degrees, at the margin, as are all economics, but doing it this way is a HUGE change.
A $450 a week employee goes from about $225 a week on regular UE, not back to $450 but to $825. Their salary nearly doubles if they stay on unemployment (about 80% raise).
Maybe papa johns can pay someone their regular pay to work, $11-$13 an hour. They aren't paying someone $20 an hour to deliver pizzas. not unless that pie costs $30-40.
the good news it's a hell of a stimulus.
And that's on TOP of the direct payment check.
So you get laid off at $11-$13 or so an hour, this goes 2 months, you get $1,200 cash not counting kids and you get $3,000 MORE on unemployment.
So you're up about $4,200, or more than 2 months pay, in that two months. You got a 20% or so bonus for going through this.
Amazon will be busy as heck delivering new 4k Tvs and game systems, if they can hire enough people to get them out the door.
OH, and the political side of this? IF Trump gets us through this without a medical disaster, this may just hand him the election. He'll be seen as having beaten the pandemic AND all those working class voters are actually doing just fine economically to boot and didn't miss a stitch.
They'll sit in front of that big 60" 4K TV and watch Trump talk about how it was the best victory in all of human history, and they'll think that maybe he's right.
;) (this one is supposed to be funny. Truth be told there's a long way till November for everyone, and he may be running against cuomo before this is over)
New York at 1580 cases per million. The US as a whole is at 200 cases per million. The US minus New York is 107 cases per million.
The Florida governor has mandated that New York travelers to Florida self quarantine for 14 days. I’m not really sure he can enforce that in any capacity however.
New York handled this badly to say the least, and are paying for it. Other than them as a nation we're actually doing well so far. Not great, but there is no "great" in this fight. It's a war of attrition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof
Sasse's amendment failed, 48-48, so voting started on full bill. Simple majority this time.
Senate passes unanimously, on to the House. Only issue should be if one member steps out of the line. The whips have been working hard today.
3.2 million new jobless claims in one week. For perspective, here's a chart showing the history of jobless claims since 1970:
Attachment 9267
That's not even a sweat now BEvans. Almost every single one of those people just got a 4 month raise.
Seriously, we're borrowing our way out of this, and if every person on UE actually has MORE money I'm not sure what that number means as an indicator. All bets are off with this spending package in terms of what the economy does next.
The biggest problem will be getting people to go back to their jobs. I'm not kidding. Almost all of those people will be taking a pay cut to return to work if they are called back in the next 4 months.
I hope most will go back since they want a job after the 4 month window, but it may get interesting.
But the US government just basically made jobless claims irrelevant as an indicator of consumer spending. There's no reason for a contraction based on consumer demand as they won't be short money at all.
Cat, surely you have read this thread. Its only "playing politics" when the Dems are doing it. :533:Quote:
Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof
As I said two days ago, this is a HUGE 2 Trillion dollar deal and its going to get done. I don't blame either side for trying to get it right (and of course what they consider "right" is based on the people who put them in office). This is two very large groups (House and Senate) that all have to get on the same page and that isn't easy. In the end, you know you have a good compromise when neither side is thrilled. This deal seems to be that.
There are going to be things in there neither side will like. But the leaders have to get their caucuses on board...so these things are necessary.
But the fact that a deal this large is getting done in a country this divided...is impressive frankly. People need it. So I am glad they did it.
Hospitals considering universal DNR for Coronavirus patients:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...ot-resucitate/
No, I’m just floating along in life.....smh :thinking2:
Since I’m neither Democrat or Republican, I can and have called out both. Can you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukpumacat
Only when they do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ukpumacat
I've repeatedly asked someone to point out the GOP equivalent of airline emissions restrictions and NEA funding in the GOP version of the bill, the one voted down for debate on Sunday.
Guess it's a long read, so I'll keep waiting.
in fact I'll help you out. The only one I know that's a debate is the money to buy oil for the strategic reserve. Other than the fact that
a) the oil business does need propping up right now to maintain US production amid a Saudi/Russian price war, so you know like drugs and ventilators we don't have to depend on them for oil, and
b) you like to buy things when they are cheap, not expensive, and oil is at a super low price, so now might be a good time to stock up on it. Esp. if this lasts 5-6 months and a lot of the small operations and frackers in the US have to shutter, severely limiting the US strategic reserve.
The Dems killed that as a "bailout" and "corporate welfare", despite the fact that it's absolutely strategic and every other industry and person in America is getting a bailout.
OK, so I helped. Now point out the GOP equivalent of asking for companies to have mandatory diversity officers.
And when the GOP does some onerous, I point it out.
For example the delay over the $600 UE payment, while not a political play (Graham dealt with at at the worst possible political time, not the best, so that wasn't for timing), was a failure of the GOP staff to make sure all the Senators were on board with the economics of that part of the package.
This bill has a LOT of stupid crap in it that is thanks to our liberal friends. People on UE getting pay raises, funding for things that don't matter right now, etc. I just don't see anything that's a GOP nugget that isn't tied to actually getting stimulus money out to people or directly bailing out industries, which were the two goals of the bill from the start.
When they do the next stupid thing, and they will, I'll happy address it.
Yep. Do it all the time. Both are guilty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof
A long standing tactic in Debate tournaments is to frame the debate so narrowly that you force your opponent to respond within that tiny, narrow frame. It works. Unless it doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
There are many ways to "play politics" that are much broader than just pointing "out the GOP equivalent of airline emissions restrictions and NEA funding in the GOP version of the bill". Some of those have been posted in this thread. The bottom line is that we don't agree. And that is ok. You don't think those are "playing politics". I do. Fine. Move on.
Dems delayed for what mattered to them (restrictions on corporate bailouts). Reps delayed for what mattered to them (restrictions on unemployment).
The deal got done. That's the bottom line. And it was to you to...remember?
"Yes this will pass. WHEN WILL IT PASS? that's kinda the question."
"But when will it fu**ing pass????"
It passed the next day.
The Democrats weren’t about to put the fox in charge of the henhouse, especially after Trump tweeted that HE would be the oversight, okay.’ (Paraphrasing.). Of course it’s all been expectedly framed as the Democrats kept voting against giving the poor huddled masses any money, and I’m sure 99% of the residents left in McDowell County WV believe that to be just as true as they still believe in their hearts that Trump will save the coal industry lol.
So the US has surpassed China in the number of cases. China’s number is likely suppressed reporting by the state however. Attachment 9268
China is lying through their teeth. And shooting anyone who doesn't go along with it.
NYC: wow.
Attachment 9269
New York is almost to 2000 cases per million of population.....
Something just isnt adding up imo.
Re New York it's bc of two factors:Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
1) Very dense,
2) LOTS of people coming and going to infected countries (their first case was from someone coming from Iran)
3) Slow response.
This is a video with Tucker but has video of Feb 2nd of the NYC Public Health Commissioner telling people to go out and socialize, and comments to go to Chinatown for a festival, etc. or you're racist, etc.
https://video.foxnews.com/v/6145069779001#sp=show-clips
Trump was too optimistic when this started, but he doesn't hold a candle to the behavior of New York's leaders.
De blasio held out until March 11th telling people to go about their lives, etc. That was the same day the SEC tournament was cancelled for reference.
For their density and the number of cases they were getting coming in from abroad they just held off way too long.
Their first case was March 1st. Ours was March 6th. We closed schools on the same Monday.
Kentucky also doing better than Tennessee etc., again b/c of the earlier action to distance. New York had more seeding points, is far denser and more social, AND they waited as long as even states like Kentucky to start clamping down.
That's IMO why Cuomo is so very in charge now. He can't leave it to New York leaders.
I knew density would have a huge impact. But the numbers still surprised me
FWIW Kentucky and New York have done a lot of things about the same time. The difference is that New York was already having 100s of cases.
By March 7th, when we had our first case, they had 89. We still closed bars and restaurants at the same time.
Goodness knows how many foreign travelers brought seed points to the city and due to density and lifestyle it was a wildfire.
that's part of it. but not all of it IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
NY is also very social, people go out and eat rather than eat at home, etc. Lots of contact.
Also multiple starting points with foreign travel.
BUT, the also were way behind on acting compared to other states. See above, they had about 90 cases when we had 1, yet we have closed things at about the same rate as New York.
With 90 cases on March 7th why go till the 15th to close restaurants, schools etc.?
By point of comparison the first San Francisco case was March 5th versus 1st for NY. they had a stay at home order on the 16th, about the same time as New York was shutting down.
BUT, they only had 40 cases. NY had 90 at that point. Much bigger city, but the point still stands IMO.
At every trigger point New York has waited longer than other cities and states to shut down. They've done it about the same time as others but they started several days sooner.
BTW, some of that isn't their fault. The truth is states like Kentucky have been piggybacking on them. They take an action and other states and cities go "OK we need to do that too". It's just that New York is further along the curve so they are getting hammered, and other parts of the US are benefitting from acting when they act b/c their numbers are better.