Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Here is a NOT Fox News article by the WSJ which is generally moderate/conservative:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/negotia...ge-11585053060

Based on that, the only hold up now is money for agriculture.

Notice that there wasn't mention of Green New Deal stuff, etc. That's Fox News stuff.

"The two sides were approaching an agreement on one of the primary remaining sticking points: oversight on $500 billion that Republicans had proposed to allocate to aid distressed businesses. Democrats had sought controls on those funds, which include loans made directly by the Treasury Department and a backstop for losses in Federal Reserve lending facilities."

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Which is what I've said all day. The other stuff is in the House bill, and that's Pelosi. The only Senate sticking point was the oversight, and we knew that as of this weekend.

But Pelosi and Schumer killed the vote to proceed on Sunday so they could work out that last part, and used the House bill full of crap as their leverage.

yes it was posturing, but it's not a time for posturing. It's a time to be serious and hammer out the last details without all that crap, and get a deal done.

that's not "Fox News", a convenient ploy but also the logical fallacy of ad hominem btw, it's bringing crap to the table that is useless and divisive when all they needed to work out was the oversight.

And since the Senate can't move this bill without the Democrats, that was going to work out inevitably without the political side show that was Pelosi trying to a) gain stature in this process and b) get other concessions outside of the virus package of aid.

All she did was hold this process up and cause more resentment and divisiveness, just after the GOP had done just the opposite and voted for a "flawed" House bill for Phase II.

Will it work out? Sure it will, but you yourself said the move was nothing but regular politics. This is no time for regular politics. It's bad form and bad for a country trying to come together, not splinter further apart.

It was a) totally unnecessary, even by your own admission, and b) divisive and delaying. So how do you defend it given your position that this was the only main sticking point (which I agree with) and that it was going to work out anyway ( also true b/c the Senate Democrats obviously have to agree no matter what the House does)?

The House's involvement was just an anchor, an attempt by Pelosi to increase her power and get partisan concessions. ANd that's wrong.

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Which is what I've said all day. The other stuff is in the House bill, and that's Pelosi. The only Senate sticking point was the oversight, and we knew that as of this weekend.

But Pelosi and Schumer killed the vote to proceed on Sunday so they could work out that last part, and used the House bill full of crap as their leverage.

yes it was posturing, but it's not a time for posturing. It's a time to be serious and hammer out the last details without all that crap, and get a deal done.

that's not "Fox News", a convenient ploy but also the logical fallacy of ad hominem btw, it's bringing crap to the table that is useless and divisive when all they needed to work out was the oversight.

And since the Senate can't move this bill without the Democrats, that was going to work out inevitably without the political side show that was Pelosi trying to a) gain stature in this process and b) get other concessions outside of the virus package of aid.

All she did was hold this process up and cause more resentment and divisiveness, just after the GOP had done just the opposite and voted for a "flawed" House bill for Phase II.

Will it work out? Sure it will, but you yourself said the move was nothing but regular politics. This is no time for regular politics. It's bad form and bad for a country trying to come together, not splinter further apart.

It was a) totally unnecessary, even by your own admission, and b) divisive and delaying. So how do you defend it given your position that this was the only main sticking point (which I agree with) and that it was going to work out anyway ( also true b/c the Senate Democrats obviously have to agree no matter what the House does)?

The House's involvement was just an anchor, an attempt by Pelosi to increase her power and get partisan concessions. ANd that's wrong.

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And Mitch's ploy of calling a vote he knew would fail yesterday was not politics?

Yes, we BOTH agree that Dems are playing politics. Posting it over and over again using different language doesn't change the fact that I've already admitted that.
Our disagreement is that BOTH sides are doing it. You keep reposting what Dems are doing. And have said over and over its only the Dems. I do not agree. Its both sides.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

So one of us (me) is saying BOTH sides are doing it and its stupid. And one of us (you) continuously says only the Dems are doing it. But I am the one "playing for my team". Uh huh.

I have said about 4 times BOTH sides are doing it and its stupid. But UNFORTUNATELY, its how bipartisan deals get done. This is a HUGE, bipartisan, 2 Trillion dollar deal. Its going to take time and give and take on both sides to get it right.

And again, this is all two days of message board fodder. This deal is going to get done. Likely today. And none of this will matter in a week from now. None of it.

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Any time you have time point out the GOP's politics in this Phase III bill. Other than the oversight question, which I listed when I started, it's clean.


Second, yes it does matter in a week. American businesses are on the clock, and every day we don't get these funds in place more people go on unemployment. How many are impacted? I have no idea, but every small business in America is looking at cash in the bank and payroll and deciding when to lay off. Every day does in fact matter right now.

And it matters long term b/c it's another division at a time we could show cooperation. As someone who has claimed Trumps divisive nature is destructive I'm surprised you dismiss divisiveness so easily in a time of real crisis.

When Trump echoes the positions of half of this country he's "divisive". When Pelosi interjects this nonsense into a crisis funding effort for the US economy it's all just acceptable politics.

No, it's divisive, and will piss off a LOT of people. Some who follow Fox, OK, but also a lot of middle of the road Americans who know this is no time for such things.

If Trump had called for funding of the wall and more deportations to respond to this crisis, even if none of that was taken up in the Senate and didn't delay the funding by one minute, he'd have been roasted to high heaven for playing politics and being divisive as a leader, and I'm betting you'd have agreed with that response, and I would have as well fwiw.

But if Pelosi does it then it's all OK and just good negotiation strategy, despite her being a national leader as well. That's your double standard. If Trump "playing politics" in this is wrong (and you've said it is), then her doing it is wrong too.

But you never have said it's wrong. You've said it's all OK, won't mean anything in the end and is normal. Double standard.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

And Mitch's ploy of calling a vote he knew would fail yesterday was not politics?

Yes, we BOTH agree that Dems are playing politics. Posting it over and over again using different language doesn't change the fact that I've already admitted that.
Our disagreement is that BOTH sides are doing it. You keep reposting what Dems are doing. And have said over and over its only the Dems. I do not agree. Its both sides.

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It was a procedural vote on Sunday to open debate. It wasn't on the bill itself.

Mitch killed it sunday night after he lost the votes for it to pass. He scheduled it b/c he at one time had the votes. Schumer and Pelosi and the leadership then sent out the word to kill it.

So that allowed him to reschedule it for Monday after the markets opened, which he did in hopes of getting the votes after they see the importance of moving forward.

That's a far cry from "playing politics". he was just trying to get open debate for the bill, not ram it down anyone's throat. He'd spent the last week with 5 committees with both sides involved getting it put together. The few sticking points could have been worked out as the debate continued on the floor.

There was no need to kill a procedural vote to open debate. Unless you want to really put the screws to the process of course.

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Any time you have time point out the GOP's politics in this Phase III bill. Other than the oversight question, which I listed when I started, it's clean.


Second, yes it does matter in a week. American businesses are on the clock, and every day we don't get these funds in place more people go on unemployment. How many are impacted? I have no idea, but every small business in America is looking at cash in the bank and payroll and deciding when to lay off. Every day does in fact matter right now.

And it matters long term b/c it's another division at a time we could show cooperation. As someone who has claimed Trumps divisive nature is destructive I'm surprised you dismiss divisiveness so easily in a time of real crisis.

When Trump echoes the positions of half of this country he's "divisive". When Pelosi interjects this nonsense into a crisis funding effort for the US economy it's all just acceptable politics.

No, it's divisive, and will piss off a LOT of people. Some who follow Fox, OK, but also a lot of middle of the road Americans who know this is no time for such things.

If Trump had called for funding of the wall and more deportations to respond to this crisis, even if none of that was taken up in the Senate and didn't delay the funding by one minute, he'd have been roasted to high heaven for playing politics and being divisive as a leader, and I'm betting you'd have agreed with that response, and I would have as well fwiw.

But if Pelosi does it then it's all OK and just good negotiation strategy, despite her being a national leader as well. That's your double standard. If Trump "playing politics" in this is wrong (and you've said it is), then her doing it is wrong too.

But you never have said it's wrong. You've said it's all OK, won't mean anything in the end and is normal. Double standard.

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How do you know that is what Pelosi did? How do you know that she stepped in and she herself added those provisions? Where are you getting this info?

Because I just watched an interview with her and she said she did not do that. I have read articles by the WSJ and all over and no one mentions that.
I've seen you mention it. I've seen Fox News mention it. I heard Mitch from the Senate floor mention it.
So where are you getting this info?

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

It was a procedural vote on Sunday to open debate. It wasn't on the bill itself.

Mitch killed it sunday night after he lost the votes for it to pass. He scheduled it b/c he at one time had the votes. Schumer and Pelosi and the leadership then sent out the word to kill it.

So that allowed him to reschedule it for Monday after the markets opened, which he did in hopes of getting the votes after they see the importance of moving forward.

That's a far cry from "playing politics". he was just trying to get open debate for the bill, not ram it down anyone's throat. He'd spent the last week with 5 committees with both sides involved getting it put together. The few sticking points could have been worked out as the debate continued on the floor.

There was no need to kill a procedural vote to open debate. Unless you want to really put the screws to the process of course.

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Well then its settled. Mitch was not playing politics. Pelosi was.

After a drop in U.S. daily deaths, they are increasing again, substantially:

Attachment 9263

Just out of curiosity, if timing is of the essence on all of this and every day matters...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...c57_story.html

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

How do you know that is what Pelosi did? How do you know that she stepped in and she herself added those provisions? Where are you getting this info?

Because I just watched an interview with her and she said she did not do that. I have read articles by the WSJ and all over and no one mentions that.
I've seen you mention it. I've seen Fox News mention it. I heard Mitch from the Senate floor mention it.
So where are you getting this info?

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If you'd care to read the bill:

https://appropriations.house.gov/sit...DSUPP3_xml.pdf

Wish you would. Please find one thing I claimed was in there that isn't in there. Airline emissions are sec. 704. Kennedy Center is Sec. 76. Etc.

Care to read about the strategy? Let's pick a liberal source, not nasty Fox News:

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4...ase-3-stimulus

“This is a tremendous opportunity to restructure things to fit our vision,” Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) told lawmakers, according to a source on the call.

I read this last night before going to bed and probably shouldn't have. But it's a gripping, scary and sobering account of a NYC Columbia faculty member who fought Ebola and is now working as an ER doc in NYC.

-----------------------------------------------------
Craig Spencer MD MPH
Mar. 24, 2020 4 min read

Thank you everyone for your incredible messages of support and encouragement.♥️

Many of you asked what it was like in the ER right now. I want to share a bit with you. Please RT:

A Day in the Life of an ER Doc - A Brief Dispatch from the #COVID19 Frontline:
Wake up at 6:30am. Priority is making a big pot of coffee for the whole day, because the place by the hospital is closed. The Starbucks too. It's all closed.

On the walk, it feels like Sunday. No one is out. Might be the freezing rain. Or it's early. Regardless, that's good.

Walk in for your 8am shift: Immediately struck by how the calm of the early morning city streets is immediately transformed. The bright fluorescent lights of the ER reflect off everyone's protective goggles. There is a cacophony of coughing. You stop. Mask up. Walk in.

You take signout from the previous team, but nearly every patient is the same, young & old:

Cough, shortness of breath, fever.

They are really worried about one patient. Very short of breath, on the maximum amount of oxygen we can give, but still breathing fast.

You immediately assess this patient. It's clear what this is, and what needs to happen. You have a long and honest discussion with the patient and family over the phone. It's best to put her on life support now, before things get much worse. You're getting set up for that, but...

You're notified of another really sick patient coming in. You rush over. They're also extremely sick, vomiting. They need to be put on life support as well. You bring them back. Two patients, in rooms right next to each other, both getting a breathing tube. It's not even 10am yet.

For the rest of your shift, nearly every hour, you get paged:

Stat notification: Very sick patient, short of breath, fever. Oxygen 88%.

Stat notification: Low blood pressure, short of breath, low oxygen.

Stat notification: Low oxygen, can't breath. Fever.

All day...

Sometime in the afternoon you recognize you haven't drank any water. You're afraid to take off the mask. It's the only thing that protects you. Surely you can last a little longer - in West Africa during Ebola, you spent hours in a hot suit without water. One more patient...

By late afternoon, you need to eat. Restaurant across the street is closed. Right, everything is closed. But thankfully the hospital cafeteria is open. You grab something, wash your hands (twice), cautiously take off your mask, & eat as fast as you can. Go back. Mask up. Walk in.

Nearly everyone you see today is the same. We assume everyone is #COVIDー19. We wear gowns, goggles, and masks at every encounter. All day. It's the only way to be safe. Where did all the heart attacks and appendicitis patients go? Its all COVID.

When your shift ends, you sign out to the oncoming team. It's all #COVIDー19. Over the past week, we've all learned the signs - low oxygen, lymphopenia, elevated D-dimer.

You share concerns of friends throughout the city without PPE. Hospitals running out of ventilators.
Before you leave, you wipe EVERYTHING down. Your phone. Your badge. Your wallet. Your coffee mug. All of it. Drown it in bleach. Everything in a bag. Take no chances.

Sure you got it all??? Wipe is down again. Can't be too careful.

You walk out and take off your mask. You feel naked and exposed. It's still raining, but you want to walk home. Feels safer than the subway or bus, plus you need to decompress.

The streets are empty. This feels nothing like what is happening inside. Maybe people don't know???

You get home. You strip in the hallway (it's ok, your neighbors know what you do). Everything in a bag. Your wife tries to keep your toddler away, but she hasn't seen you in days, so it's really hard. Run to the shower. Rinse it all away. Never happier. Time for family.
You reflect on the fact that it's really hard to understand how bad this is - and how bad its going to be - if all you see are empty streets.

Hospitals are nearing capacity. We are running out of ventilators. Ambulance sirens don't stop.

Everyone we see today was infected a week ago, or more. The numbers will undoubtedly skyrocket overnight, as they have every night the past few days. More will come to the ER. More will be stat notifications. More will be put on a ventilator.

We were too late to stop this virus. Full stop. But we can slow it's spread. The virus can't infect those it never meets. Stay inside. Social distancing is the only thing that will save us now. I don't care as much about the economic impact as I do about our ability to save lives.

You might hear people saying it isn't real. It is.

You might hear people saying it isn't bad. It is.

You might hear people saying it can't take you down. It can.

I survived Ebola. I fear #COVIDー19.

Do your part. Stay home. Stay safe.

And every day I'll come to work for you.

https://threader.app/thread/1242302400762908685

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

If you'd care to read the bill:

https://appropriations.house.gov/sit...DSUPP3_xml.pdf

Wish you would. Please find one thing I claimed was in there that isn't in there. Airline emissions are sec. 704. Kennedy Center is Sec. 76. Etc.

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So for clarity...That is the House bill. That was voted and approved on Saturday, correct?

One last post on here, made only in the interest of fairness:

Trump is a moron for suggesting this will loosen up by Easter. Unless he means Easter 2021.

This is a 60-90 day thing at a minimum at this point, and I'm hearing 6 months from some more internal sources.

I do think he's trying to encourage people, and he's right the economy is in dire straits if this continues more than a few weeks, but sadly I think that's exactly what we're going to see.

Regardless, he should be saying to take it seriously and that we'll turn this around, but not giving timeframes right now. That's totally irresponsible, though totally consistent with his "it's the greatest ever" approach to everything.

The good news is that policy wise nothing will happen with it.

Just so people don't think I'm just running around defending him. I have always thought he is an asshat, and absurd in his exaggerations, but I guess being POTUS is such a lousy job that few if any people of any intelligence really want the job.

And that's why I'm a Libertarian. The only answer to politics and government is to have as little of it as humanly possible, b/c it's never going to be a good thing.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Here is a NOT Fox News article by the WSJ which is generally moderate/conservative:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/negotia...ge-11585053060

Based on that, the only hold up now is money for agriculture.

Notice that there wasn't mention of Green New Deal stuff, etc. That's Fox News stuff.

"The two sides were approaching an agreement on one of the primary remaining sticking points: oversight on $500 billion that Republicans had proposed to allocate to aid distressed businesses. Democrats had sought controls on those funds, which include loans made directly by the Treasury Department and a backstop for losses in Federal Reserve lending facilities."

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The Wall Street Journal Editorial Board is generally conservative, the publication otherwise is quite liberal.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

I'm not insulting your intelligence. I am telling you that what you are saying is EXACTLY what Fox News is saying. Like exactly. And you are linking article after article from Fox News.

Mitch knew when he called that vote that he didn't have the votes. That was straight up a political move. Both sides are doing it.

When will it pass? Ask them. But if I was guessing...late tonight or tomorrow at the latest.

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I saw an interview with a Dem senator (I don’t remember which one) on Sunday that said they had a deal and the votes were there to pass it. Then Pelosi arrived back in town and havoc resulted.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

How do you know that is what Pelosi did? How do you know that she stepped in and she herself added those provisions? Where are you getting this info?

Because I just watched an interview with her and she said she did not do that. I have read articles by the WSJ and all over and no one mentions that.
I've seen you mention it. I've seen Fox News mention it. I heard Mitch from the Senate floor mention it.
So where are you getting this info?

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It was in the bill filed in the House.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...navirus-145388

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

So for clarity...That is the House bill. That was voted and approved on Saturday, correct?

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No. It is a House Bill that was unveiled last night.

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Democrats are following through on their threat to go rogue with their own stimulus plan, unveiling a more than 1,400-page bill Monday night, packed with policy differences compared to the proposal Senate Republicans laid out.

After the GOP’s latest measure tanked twice during test votes in the Senate, House Democrats wrote a competing proposal to save the country from economic destruction at the hands of the coronavirus. The House measure would boost emergency funds for agencies, mandate "green" rules for airlines, eliminate a payroll tax suspension, kick in additional help for hospitals, schools and food banks, and more.

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https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...navirus-145388

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

One last post on here, made only in the interest of fairness:

Trump is a moron for suggesting this will loosen up by Easter. Unless he means Easter 2021.

This is a 60-90 day thing at a minimum at this point, and I'm hearing 6 months from some more internal sources.

I do think he's trying to encourage people, and he's right the economy is in dire straits if this continues more than a few weeks, but sadly I think that's exactly what we're going to see.

Regardless, he should be saying to take it seriously and that we'll turn this around, but not giving timeframes right now. That's totally irresponsible, though totally consistent with his "it's the greatest ever" approach to everything.

The good news is that policy wise nothing will happen with it.

Just so people don't think I'm just running around defending him. I have always thought he is an asshat, and absurd in his exaggerations, but I guess being POTUS is such a lousy job that few if any people of any intelligence really want the job.

And that's why I'm a Libertarian. The only answer to politics and government is to have as little of it as humanly possible, b/c it's never going to be a good thing.

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Trump has expressed hope to have some things back up and running, and that they will re-evaluate after the 15 dat period. He has also said to be prepared for A July-August time period.

One thing is certain, an extended shutdown isn’t really an option. It isn’t coincidental that Cuomo and Trump both talk about the need to get some segments of the economy moving again.

New York State with 1343 cases per million of State population. 48% of total cases in the US....
Attachment 9264

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Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof

And as GM became financially stable, it’s largest investment went to China.....so while that money was largely paid back, it didn’t necessarily benefit American worker.

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As I stated, I was not for the 2008 bailout however it is a false narrarive that the money went into the deep pockets of coeporate executive. It went to save a company that employeed thousands of workers, and the money was repaid

Clearly there are large areas of the country unaffected, and other areas not doing a good job (ie NY and WA). Here in FL we have 17 deaths whichnis relatively small and no doubt the closing of group settings has helped stem expected explosion. But at this time it is time to move out of defcon 1

Half of the cases down here are within Palm Beach/Broward/Miami Dade Counties. Densely populated areas that like to be out and about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doc

Clearly there are large areas of the country unaffected, and other areas not doing a good job (ie NY and WA). Here in FL we have 17 deaths whichnis relatively small and no doubt the closing of group settings has helped stem expected explosion. But at this time it is time to move out of defcon 1

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I’m afraid Florida might be a couple of weeks behind everyone and will get hit really hard. Hope I’m wrong.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

I’m afraid Florida might be a couple of weeks behind everyone and will get hit really hard. Hope I’m wrong.

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We've been watching the news from The Villages because we might retire there someday. To say that many there are taking this lightly is an understatement. You move there to be active and social, but many don't seem to be taking the concept of social distancing seriously. Given the age of most residents, I'm hoping this doesn't blow through there.

35 mil for the Kennedy performing arts center in DC is in the house bill to fund Covid19 recovery. Reported on The Five

Sobering:

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A team of researchers including a mathematician from the University of Louisville are poring over the numbers trying to estimate how far the coronavirus will spread in states like Kentucky....

As of Wednesday, 124 people have tested positive for COVID-19 in Kentucky with 32 of those cases coming from Jefferson County. Here are Han’s estimations for the next month:

Jefferson County
7 days: 68
15 days: 107
30 days: 232

Kentucky
7 days: 394
15 days: 635
30 days: 1,354

The researchers’ model assumed that the number of confirmed cases in Kentucky will peak after 150 days: on Thursday, August 20.

In that worst case scenario, without taking into consideration the impacts of social distancing, Han predicts by that time, there will be nearly 87,000 confirmed cases in Louisville and around 635,000 in Kentucky.

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https://wfpl.org/how-this-u-of-l-res...s-in-kentucky/

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sen...democrats-vote

"In case you're watching," Graham said in reference to the president, his voice rising, "tell [Treasury Secretary] Steven Mnuchin to come back to the White House and end negotiations. I think I understand the give-and-take of life and politics, but I've been called by two good friends on the Democratic side in the last five or six hours wanting more money. End the negotiations."

It's going great. Nothing to see here. (and ending negotiations is right move at this point. Write the bill for up or down vote and dare Dems to stop it)



However, it's highly unlikely the bill could see a vote Tuesday night, given that lawmakers have not even finalized the text. A Thursday or Friday vote in the House of Representatives appeared possible. But, because many House lawmakers have not been in Washington, that process likely would involve a voice vote with a skeleton crew, essentially requiring unanimous consent -- meaning just one House member could kill the vote.

Remember, it'll all mean nothing in a week. Oh, wait, you mean it will be at least a week before we even have a bill on the President's desk thanks to these delays?

Would hate to interrupt the House to actually get to DC and do their job. I wonder who is responsible for allowing the House to not be there to vote on this NOW. Hmmm......

If the POTUS was at Mar Largo think we'd be getting those questions from the media?

I rarely have ventured over to this board, but figured I could learn a few things. Feel like I’ve read for about 10 hours a day on this topic. The political side of it sickens me, both ways. Politicians are crooks for the most part, how sad that is. Such poor judgement to mislead our nation to relax and think this thing was handled, it killed many. Also how are we so smart yet we’ve ignored the need for preparing for this type of pandemic which many knew was coming even before the first case. Hopefully we have learned our lesson. I fear our kind is not long for this world. I’ve been watching LOST again with the family, certainly makes you realize we all need to work out our past and move beyond to prepare for what lies ahead. Thanks to all who posted their views and info, I love soaking it up.

Don't worry paduka, we'll be OK. It won't be pretty, but for better or worse humans have survived far greater threats than this one.

And as expected. A deal reached tonight. Shocker.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/25/p...rus/index.html

Not shocked. Don't recall anyone suggesting there would be no deal. Another fallacy, the strawman. Now I can't wait to hear what great "flaws" were fixed with this delay.

Now we PRAY the House doesn't have a single loose member since Pelosi saw fit for it to not be in session for a vote, and I'm told 96 hours for SBA to implement the bill once Trump signs it. One wingnut from Michigan already carping about it being "corporate welfare". Pelosi better tie a knot in his ass or they'll own that failure too.

So from the time the Senate started say about 3 weeks. That's a lot of payroll people have to cover on the promise they'll get help.

This was a despicable move, period. The deal got done b/c it was a political loser for Democrats and Trump's approval is record high. So they let it go and then will no doubt declare victory, but the key will be to see if there is any substantive change in the bill. I'm betting not really. A bit more oversight, could have been worked out on Sunday or Monday by lunch.

You've worried for weeks that people don't take this seriously enough then defend actions that clearly treat this as politics as usual and not dire. The House bill was a complete joke. Why even do that?

They played politics and lost, b/c most people would never think this is an OK time to play politics. The fact they lost quickly doesn't reassure me about the future of this crisis or this government.

Unfortunately, Democrats are conditioned to politically pushing the envelope in times of crisis because they almost universally receive cover from most media outlets (like any government shutdowns, impeachment, etc.). Therefore, I firmly believe they created that bill in the House with the expectation that they would receive no criticism and that the White House would receive intense pressure to agree to these ridiculous requests because the media would portray the president as being callous and reckless for not agreeing to the Democrats’ demands. Luckily, the contents of the House bill became public and some in the media thankfully criticized the Democrats which led to them caving.

Anyone that believes either side superior morally to the other when the lives of their loved ones are at stake needs to re-evaluate. They are willfully blind.

It’s so silly it needs no argument. But political games are what each side plays and the only way they know to function. That includes all your favorites in the WH and Congress. Bank on that

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Originally Posted by kingcat

Anyone that believes either side superior morally to the other when the lives of their loved ones are at stake needs to re-evaluate. They are willfully blind.

It’s so silly it needs no argument. But political games are what each side plays and the only way they know to function. That includes all your favorites in the WH and Congress. Bank on that

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Yup.

I’m glad this deal got done. In a Congress as divided and partisan as ours has been, I’m glad they came to an agreement.

Here is an update to this chart...now including several other states.

The biggest thing to notice...stay at home orders work. California is the most populous state with a few very dense areas. But the Governor was the first to issue a statewide Stay at Home order (NY quickly followed). But, California did it with much less cases.
One week ago, we were at almost the same spot as New York.

To be fair to New York, I think this virus has been there for months (likely in California also). And NYC is far more dense and uses far more public transportation than any city in California (or elsewhere). So the spread is inevitably going to be faster.
And all of this is knock on wood...we may see a huge spike in coming days in California and one person dying is too many for that family.
But, overall, stay at home orders do work. Hope other states see some success with it as well.

https://twitter.com/Nathan510edge/st...628929/photo/1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingcat

Anyone that believes either side superior morally to the other when the lives of their loved ones are at stake needs to re-evaluate. They are willfully blind.

It’s so silly it needs no argument. But political games are what each side plays and the only way they know to function. That includes all your favorites in the WH and Congress. Bank on that

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I said nothing about moral superiority, I was simply commenting on my opinion as to why Democrats would feel comfortable trying to include unnecessary ideological items in such an important piece of legislation.

Bringing up moral superiority is merely a straw man argument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingcat

Anyone that believes either side superior morally to the other when the lives of their loved ones are at stake needs to re-evaluate. They are willfully blind.

It’s so silly it needs no argument. But political games are what each side plays and the only way they know to function. That includes all your favorites in the WH and Congress. Bank on that

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Strawman. No one suggested moral superiority anywhere in any thread.

When the GOP plays games I call it out. In this case they really didn't play games. There wasn't a single extraneous funding provision in the bill from the Senate on Sunday of which I'm aware (if there was it must have been minor as it was unreported). Second, they passed the Phase II House bill without debate or complaint despite it having several such provisions. They let it go for the good of expediency and getting things done.

I'm sorry if sometimes the GOP does in fact do the right thing and the Democrats do not, but this is one of those cases.

Likewise, the impeachment of Trump was truly wrong, and is on the Democrats, just as the impeachment of Clinton was 100% on the GOP and they need to own it. The GOP has played these games in the past, but with a couple of differences:

1) B/c they lack broad media support the GOP can't get away with it as much. If this were a GOP move with a Democratic POTUS and Senate the entire mainstream media would have roasted them for this maneuver. With it being the Democrats doing it they were largely silent. Sure Fox is on the GOP side, but the networks, almost all newspapers, CNN and MSNBC are all on the other side. That's a very large voice.

2) This is an unprecedented crisis, and "politics as usual" is totally unacceptable in this situation. Doing this in a normal budget debate is a given. Doing this even with a minor crisis I would agree with puma that it's just how things work. But this is truly exceptional.

You have to have some f-ing brass to be sitting in Congress looking at the threat of a global pandemic and depression and start worrying about funding for the National Endowment for the Arts and emissions limits on airlines. Whether it delays a bill one minute or days, that's just an insult to anyone with any intelligence and is a complete slap in the face to the supposedly critical message that leaders send that this is a serious if not dire situation and that people need to take it extremely seriously.

How serious do you expect people to take it if it's all just business as usual and pork projects and logrolling in Washington? What message does that send?

Feel free to point out the equivalent thing the GOP has done that is so divisive and partisan in this current crisis and I'll wail about them too, but so far they've actually been far better in this situation. To be equivalent they would have needed to put in border wall funding or increased deportations or big defense spending pork, etc. That would make them equal in this, but that didn't happen.

That's just how it goes. I call pox on both their houses on principle b/c I dislike government, politicians and the concentration of power among elites, but in this specific crisis the GOP has done the right thing and the Democrats have tried to make political hay from it.

I won't throw the GOP leadership under the bus when they've done the right things. If they change that tomorrow I'll call it out.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Here is an update to this chart...now including several other states.

The biggest thing to notice...stay at home orders work. California is the most populous state with a few very dense areas. But the Governor was the first to issue a statewide Stay at Home order (NY quickly followed). But, California did it with much less cases.
One week ago, we were at almost the same spot as New York.

To be fair to New York, I think this virus has been there for months (likely in California also). Any NYC is far more dense and uses far more public transportation than any city in California (or elsewhere). So the spread is inevitably going to be faster.
And all of this is knock on wood...we may see a huge spike in coming days in California and one person dying is too many for that family.
But, overall, stay at home orders do work. Hope other states see some success with it as well.

https://twitter.com/Nathan510edge/st...628929/photo/1

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During morning and evening rushes in NYC the people are jammed in public transportation like sardines. One person could expose thousands in a very short time.

"The biggest sticking point between Democrats and Republicans throughout the negotiations was $500 billion worth of emergency loans both for large businesses and municipalities grappling with the coronavirus outbreak. For instance, $50 billion of that money was allotted to passenger airlines, according to the Washington Post.
Rather than trying to negotiate that figure down, Democrats instead negotiated to have strings attached to it. Instead of giving the Trump administration broad discretion to make the loans, Schumer and Pelosi said there will likely be a new inspector general in the Treasury Department specifically to oversee these funds, as well as a congressional oversight panel to examine how the money is being used"

"Direct payments to adults below a certain income threshold: The legislation would include a one-time $1,200 check that would be sent to most adults making $75,000 or less annually, according to past tax returns. A $500 payment would also be sent to cover every child in qualifying households. The final policy marks a significant change from the direct payments initially proposed by Republicans, which would have given less to many individuals who do not have taxable income. It now includes the majority of adults who are under the $75,000 threshold and phases the payment out as people’s incomes increase"

"Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and White House Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin met six times on Monday alone, working until the early hours of the morning on Tuesday to hammer out a deal. In a statement, Schumer said he was pleased with the result.
“Rather than accept such a fundamentally flawed, partisan bill, Senate Democrats have been working hard on a bipartisan bill with Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin and President Trump,” Schumer said. “I am pleased to report that our hard work has paid off.”
The final product is so large in part because it contains both Republican and Democratic proposals: $500 billion in federal funding for big businesses and municipalities hit hard by the coronavirus outbreak, as well as a direct one-time cash payment to Americans and four months of expanded unemployment insurance"

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Strawman. No one suggested moral superiority anywhere in any thread.

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Red Herring!.. :rockon:

I dont want argument (it is not the time for it) but in fact, it's (moral superiority) implied in many posts here. It is understandable given that political spin is a weapon that's been perfected over the years.

I did not call anyone out for it as it works both ways..I just told the plain, unrehearsed truth.

A strawman argument falsely assumes there are agreed upon facts in a matter. Fact is, many of the examples did not include the sensible concessions both sides achieved in attaining an agreed upon bill.
Only those that could paint Dems in a bad light.

I love ya' Chuck. You're a good Republican.

..and thats not coming from a Democrat as I am now officially claiming to be independent and view things unencumbered by the current political climate..
:trink39:

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Originally Posted by kingcat

I love ya' Chuck. You're a good Republican

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And therein lies the falsehood (strawman) in your argument. Can you not really distinguish a Libertarian from a Republican? Or do you just deem it republican because his point of view disagrees with yours?

Believe it or not, libertarians can see evil in both parties. Yes, it’s there on the right, just not as glaring as it is on the left currently.