Republican Civil War?

Moderates are increasingly diminished in the primary process where party candidates are chose. Moderate approach to governing including the spirit of compromise has also been discouraged if not outright outlawed in part to elected officials being molded through the primary process and the end of pork projects AKA earmarks and directed awards of Federal funds.

The hyperbole and hatred on both sides also works to limit this spirit of compromise.

And yes, my strong opposition and fear of Donald Trump and his approach (some policies but his general behavior to people and nations) makes it hard to compromise too. Some good folks here are proud Republicans/conservatives (some more conservative than Republican) and they support Trump policies. So when I say Trump is the single, greatest threat to American democracy, I sound over the top.

I do sincerely believe it because even as we speak he is looking to overturn an election that he lost but still saw the GOP win seats in the House and potentially hold serve in the Senate. I am probably not a good messenger for moderation and compromise because my 4 year crusade warning of Trump's evils seems to some over the top and for many here unfounded.

I get that. But it is where I am at.

If we could get moderates to have the leading voice, work to reduce money in the elections and give voice to the People, I think we will be better off.

Now seventy some million Americans voted for Trump. More for Biden but Trump consolidated and expanded his base in four years and the will of a significant number of Americans, although losing in both the popular vote and electoral college and should not be ignored.

Trump is about Trump. He knows he will not be the President on Jan 20th. This Georgia run-off doesn't matter a lick if he "won". He knows he is out.

But, this is about two things:

1. Money (and MOSTLY this). His campaign is in serious debt and he has used this "Election Fraud" nonsense to raise hundreds of millions of dollars, the vast vast majority of which he is able to use to pay off campaign debt and use for future litigation, etc.

2. Loyalty. Trump is always about people being loyal to him. He will toss someone under the bus in one second when they don't serve his purpose anymore. Today, he did that to Pence (who is currently meeting with him in the White House). Trump literally tweeted that Pence can reject that certification (Note: He CANNOT Constitutionally and knows this). So now, when Pence does not (and he won't), Trump's cult will now hate Pence.

All in all, every single Republican in office has to make the decision whether to be loyal to the constitution and their own values and beliefs or Trump. Most are simply choosing what is politically expedient for them.
Marco Rubio is my favorite (not in a good way). He used to be an actual moderate rising star. That guy has been chewed up and spit out by Trump so many times he literally is "Little Marco" now. He became a Trump lackey like everyone else and it won't matter a bit when Ivanka runs against him in 2022 for the Senate. Its fantastic to watch.

And again, the best part of all of this (for a Dem) is that it is dividing the Republican Party and that it makes it very very difficult for a Republican to win the Governor or Senate moving forward in many of these purple states.
Why?
Because an extreme candidate won't win the general and a moderate candidate who isn't loyal to Trump can't get out of the primary.

We are about to see this in Georgia. I believe Trump himself has now cost the Republicans the Senate. If he had of just shut up and gone away, I believe Reps would control it as I think the run offs would have split (or Republicans would have won both).
Now, I predict Warnock wins by a few points, and Osoff barely wins (although this one I think is a toss up).

And again, Republicans have no one to blame but themselves. You "sleep with the dog and you get the fleas". And this one is rabid.

Its not like they didn't warn us:

https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/sta...565061633?s=20

Let’s not forget there are some real pieces of work on the Democratic side also.
Harris along with her pose would do real damage if allowed.
While Trump is over the top these ladies are as well.

Most if not all politicians are for themselves just look at how many are Millionaires, not when they started as politicians but when they left office.

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Originally Posted by catmanjack

Most if not all politicians are for themselves just look at how many are Millionaires, not when they started as politicians but when they left office.

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Absolutely. The vast majority on both sides are in it for themselves.

I will say that what Trump is doing is unlike anything we have ever seen a sitting President (or other) do before. Losing the election and then openly trying to overturn the results is something you see in authoritarian dictatorships. And the fact that some have gone along with it will not soon be forgotten.

Forget the next several years, History will not be kind on any of this.

And guys like Ben Sasse, Brian Kemp, etc will gain tons of respect from both sides of the aisle simply for doing the right thing. Who woulda thunk it?

And I should add, do I think the Dems are beneath ever doing this now that the precedent has been set? Absolutely not. Pandora's box has been opened.

And the scariest part about it all is that it actually could have worked had the Republicans controlled the House and Senate. That is absolutely frightening.

I want to throw out one more thought on this from the Republican point of view (that I just saw a Republican strategist mention):

The worst thing that could ever happen to Republicans (nationally) would be for the electoral college to go away and we become a true democracy who uses the popular vote to decide elections. That would be a disaster for them.
And by doing what Trump is doing they are handing Dems the greatest piece of evidence they could use to try and do it.

I doubt that ever happens. But, Republicans simply cannot win the popular vote nationally anymore. Doing what they are doing is frankly not just unconstitutional and dangerous but its plain stupid for the future of their party.

It is stupid unless they work to nationalize elections and disenfranchising people.

Supporting Trump has already got conservatives abandoning states rights.

Absentee ballots that are mailed makes a lot of sense during a pandemic. Early voting that limits lines is great too.

I want every vote counted. I want 0 voter fraud. I personally don’t see a problem requiring photo ID but if dmvs are not open or near by communities that is an issue.

But GOP really abandoning It’s principles in support of Trump

I kind of see the reason Republicans cannot win the popular vote is because of the mistales/lies being told, when you allow the 25 and under to dictate the election based on socialist direction, eliminating college debt, huge direction towards the Environmental elimination of gas and oil because they have a belief the planet will be destroyed within 5 years. That has a huge impact on elections huge!

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

I want to throw out one more thought on this from the Republican point of view (that I just saw a Republican strategist mention):

The worst thing that could ever happen to Republicans (nationally) would be for the electoral college to go away and we become a true democracy who uses the popular vote to decide elections. That would be a disaster for them.
And by doing what Trump is doing they are handing Dems the greatest piece of evidence they could use to try and do it.

I doubt that ever happens. But, Republicans simply cannot win the popular vote nationally anymore. Doing what they are doing is frankly not just unconstitutional and dangerous but its plain stupid for the future of their party.

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I live with 3 under 25’s and their whole reason for voting as the 25 year old told me was the a socialist government sounds pretty good and to get her college debt elimination.
The 21 year old stated global warming and her desire to protect the animals.
Wow really and on top of that I am a 50 year old racist that knows zero about life! Lol.
That is the biggest issue when it comes to elections.

Not to mention both have received the stimulus while their mother who is a teacher has not! Oh and the great thing at allows them to go to Hawaii because get this they have worked hard this year!

So it’s easy to kick us hard working Republicans in the balls because we do not believe our hard earned money should be taxes to death and handed out to those that choose to make excuse after excuse for not working while they continue to destroy the foundation of what makes America Great HARD WORK!!!!!

From a strategic/messaging standpoint, what Trump is doing is not going to help. That is my overall point.

I totally agree, be a man and move on but we all know that is not in his DNA.

I am also trying to say it’s not all political.
Elections are bought and paid for.

It certainly isn’t strategic, it’s his bruised ego rearing it’s head.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

From a strategic/messaging standpoint, what Trump is doing is not going to help. That is my overall point.

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Catman,

You have my sympathy. No wonder you have your political views. I can't defend and would not want to try based on what you described.

Fwiw, just saw a tweet by a Republican strategist: “Thanks Donald Trump”.

He was being sarcastic. Like I predicted a bit back, this is going to be a Dem Senate.

As a Dem, I have mixed feelings about that (think it will hurt in 2022). But, I’m for anything where voters reject the nonsense happening in DC right now.

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Originally Posted by catmanjack

I live with 3 under 25’s and their whole reason for voting as the 25 year old told me was the a socialist government sounds pretty good and to get her college debt elimination.
The 21 year old stated global warming and her desire to protect the animals.
Wow really and on top of that I am a 50 year old racist that knows zero about life! Lol.
That is the biggest issue when it comes to elections.

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Is it your daughter? If not I don’t feel sorry for you anymore lol. Lots of 50 year olds would love to live with under 25’s!

Stepdaughter makes it worse, not very nice.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Fwiw, just saw a tweet by a Republican strategist: “Thanks Donald Trump”.

He was being sarcastic. Like I predicted a bit back, this is going to be a Dem Senate.

As a Dem, I have mixed feelings about that (think it will hurt in 2022). But, I’m for anything where voters reject the nonsense happening in DC right now.

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Puma, this I could have told you. the GOP is dead as of today. At least the GOP of old. It may go on but it will be a populism party, not a global market party. If not, there will be a large new party formed. That is my predictions. The typical R's will all be primaried.

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Originally Posted by VirginiaCat

Puma, this I could have told you. the GOP is dead as of today. At least the GOP of old. It may go on but it will be a populism party, not a global market party. If not, there will be a large new party formed. That is my predictions. The typical R's will all be primaried.

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Two VERY pro Trump candidates just lost in Georgia yesterday. And against two candidates that are not moderates. Georgia.

It will not take long before whatever the Republican Party becomes realizes MAGA candidates cannot win in these states.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Two VERY pro Trump candidates just lost in Georgia yesterday. And against two candidates that are not moderates. Georgia.

It will not take long before whatever the Republican Party becomes realizes MAGA candidates cannot win in these states.

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Very good point. Wonder if that would have happened without a mail in vote process (just leave the regular absentee ballot process in place)? Who knows. We will never know.

I find it extremely interesting that the last time a runoff happened in GA only 2.7MM votes were cast. This time about 5 MM.

That the last election there was a 6.5% rejection rate of the actual absentee ballots that have a chain of control process but yet only a .007 rejection rate this time. That of 19 bell weather counties in GA, 18 went to Trump by a larger margin this time around than the last time.

Too many statistical anomolies in this election overall. Has to be explained.

Honestly, that is all I am asking for. Explain the anomolies. IF they can be explained, I think a lot of people like me will accept. But until that, Biden is not POTUS.

Cruz presented a very good option. I can live aith an Electoral Commission to look at the data and evidence and make a call. 5 from the house, 5 from the Senate, and 5 SCOTUS. They have 13 days to finish.

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Originally Posted by VirginiaCat

Very good point. Wonder if that would have happened without a mail in vote process (just leave the regular absentee ballot process in place)? Who knows. We will never know.

I find it extremely interesting that the last time a runoff happened in GA only 2.7MM votes were cast. This time about 5 MM.

That the last election there was a 6.5% rejection rate of the actual absentee ballots that have a chain of control process but yet only a .007 rejection rate this time. That of 19 bell weather counties in GA, 18 went to Trump by a larger margin this time around than the last time.

Too many statistical anomolies in this election overall. Has to be explained.

Honestly, that is all I am asking for. Explain the anomolies. IF they can be explained, I think a lot of people like me will accept. But until that, Biden is not POTUS.

Cruz presented a very good option. I can live aith an Electoral Commission to look at the data and evidence and make a call. 5 from the house, 5 from the Senate, and 5 SCOTUS. They have 13 days to finish.

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There was no hope of that committee happening before. And there is zero chance of that happening now. Biden will be our President (whether one calls him their own or not).

And the Republican Georgia Election officer tore those false accusation apart one by one yesterday in a video.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

There was no hope of that committee happening before. And there is zero chance of that happening now. Biden will be our President (whether one calls him their own or not).

And the Republican Georgia Election officer tore those false accusation apart one by one yesterday in a video.

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You are probably correct...but it would solve a lot of this. If they do not, buckel up, the next 4 years are going to be very violent.

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Originally Posted by VirginiaCat

You are probably correct...but it would solve a lot of this. If they do not, buckel up, the next 4 years are going to be very violent.

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I don't know what will happen. I can tell you that Trump's words and influence will have less and less power over time. Any violence will be shut down immediately (as it should with anyone). And conservatives/Republicans/MAGA will lose less and less power if that happens.

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Any violence will be shut down immediately (as it should with anyone)

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What happened in Washington and Oregon states? I seem to remember a lot of violent acts that were ignored by the local authorities.

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Originally Posted by dan_bgblue

What happened in Washington and Oregon states? I seem to remember a lot of violent acts that were ignored by the local authorities.

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If it was it shouldn't be. Ever.

The Trump shower has begun:

I just spoke with Vice President Pence. He is a genuinely fine and decent man. He exhibited courage today as he did at the Capitol on 9/11 as a Congressman. I am proud to serve with him.
Robert Obrien

Winners from the Republican Party today: every one of them that called Trump out before this.

Sasse is at the top of that list. Republicans would be lucky to choose him as their 2024 nominee (he won’t get my vote, just mean he would be a tough out)
His statement is strong:

https://twitter.com/sensasse/status/...206025730?s=21

I was posting about this a bit in the other thread but am curious what some of your thoughts are on how Republicans move forward.

Here is the heart of the issue after last week:

- Trump lost the election because he lost the suburbs. He ran behind many many Republicans on the same ballots in these specific areas.
- The events of last week were EXACTLY why he lost the suburbs. The rhetoric, division, buffoonery (Chuck's word), etc.
- After last week, any candidate that supports Trump or who is viewed as complicit will never get those suburbs back.
BUT...
- Trump brought out more voters for his party than any in history. He carried many to seats.
- Trump's supporters ARE the Republican base now. Most Republicans cannot win without them.

So, how do you make these two things work on a National level and in purple states?

Yes, this is not an issue in many local elections and in red states. But, Republicans already HAVE those seats.

To win back the Senate or House or Presidency, they have to compete in purple states for purple seats. How do they do this if Non-Trump Republicans can't get out of the primary and pro-Trump Republicans can never win in the general because of the suburbs?

I'm not sure they do, at least not until they can piece back together a viable coalition. With Trump allies in leadership at the RNC that might take awhile. Eventually they'll realize they need to change tactics but the Democrats probably keep the White House for the next 16 years unless they start fighting themselves.

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Originally Posted by Catfan73

I'm not sure they do, at least not until they can piece back together a viable coalition. With Trump allies in leadership at the RNC that might take awhile. Eventually they'll realize they need to change tactics but the Democrats probably keep the White House for the next 16 years unless they start fighting themselves.

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Which is possible Because deep down, like a majority of Republicans who actually don’t like trump just the policies, the same can be said for Democrats and AOC

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Originally Posted by anderwt

Which is possible Because deep down, like a majority of Republicans who actually don’t like trump just the policies, the same can be said for Democrats and AOC

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In sports, it’s really hard to repeat. One of the main reasons is because when you are struggling for that first title, you put away all selfish motives and do whatever it takes to get the team to win. You buy in.
Dems did that to defeat Trump.
Whether they keep doing that remains to be seen.
There has always been factions in both parties. That is the nature of a two party system.
Dems have been able to stay United because they have true party leadership in Clinton, Obama and now Biden. Almost all Dems respect them even if they don’t agree with them.

On the Republican side, they will need to do the same. They will need to get sick of losing before they are willing to put away party divisions and do what it takes to win.
But right now, they have no party leader. Trump is the closest thing but 25% or more of the party will never listen to him again (or anyone that helped him). That won’t get it done.
And Republicans are losing the popular vote by more every year and more states are becoming purple every election.

Now, does that mean they are done? No. Of course not.
Their anti-socialism message worked. And it can still work. In fact, their messaging has been demonstratively better than Dems.
If they can get past this Trump nonsense and truly coalesce around that, they could quickly start winning back some of those people.
A low tax, small government socially liberal platform is a winning platform (that isn’t my platform...just saying it’s a winning one).
But Trump has completely mucked that up. As Ben Sasse said a while back “he has coddled white supremacists” and spent worse than Obama.
If they get there, they can def win. But I’m not sure how they get there.

1. Condemn Wednesday’s insurrection.
2. Acknowledge that they’ve been lying about voter fraud and a “stolen” election.
3. Apologize for lying.
4. Stop attacking our democracy.
5. Congratulate Joe Biden.

If they could do these five things they could put out a viable candidate in four years but they’re going to have to reel back in the monster they’ve created. I don’t think there’s a chance in hell they’ll actually do it however.

This is just a reminder what Ben Sasse said about Trump before the election (and obviously before last week's insurgence on the Capitol):

"If young people become permanent Democrats because they've just been repulsed by the obsessive nature of our politics, or if women who were willing to still vote with the Republican Party in 2016 decide that they need to turn away from this party permanently in the future, the debate is not going to be, you know, 'Ben Sasse, why were you so mean to Donald Trump?' " he said. "It's going to be 'What the heck were any of us thinking that selling a TV-obsessed narcissistic individual to the American people was a good idea?' It is not a good idea."

Even the core MAGA supporters are having a hard time presenting a united front, as they can’t decide whether they’re proud patriots or if some bogeyman like antifa was responsible for what happened Wednesday. It’s going to be awhile before they start beating Democrats again.

All 50 capitals are having to prepare for ARMED riots..Its Civil War.. only Trump can throw out the first peace sign

Trump decided long ago that good or bad, he won’t be forgotten.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

This is just a reminder what Ben Sasse said about Trump before the election (and obviously before last week's insurgence on the Capitol):

"If young people become permanent Democrats because they've just been repulsed by the obsessive nature of our politics, or if women who were willing to still vote with the Republican Party in 2016 decide that they need to turn away from this party permanently in the future, the debate is not going to be, you know, 'Ben Sasse, why were you so mean to Donald Trump?' " he said. "It's going to be 'What the heck were any of us thinking that selling a TV-obsessed narcissistic individual to the American people was a good idea?' It is not a good idea."

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I said something very similar to this elsewhere.