Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Let me add my two cents worth. Prohibitionists howl about cannabis legalization while whiskey and beer distilleries run wide open,tobacco kills millions, (more than ALL illegal drugs together). Then church goers line up on Monday morning to load up on antidepressants and millions of other mood enhancer prescriptions. Its as if hypocrisy has no limits. Then look at cannabis. Safer than aspirin but 22 million have been arrested with extortion to pay attorneys and jail and other fines amounting into the billions. Let me end with this. There have been three groups of people persecuted in this country and the first were the Indians, then the Blacks and in our generation , the cannabis users. Lets vote out ALL politicians who continue to insist (with great hypocrisy) that cannabis should stay illegal...........The BlueZZZ
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Legal age does not stop those under the legal age for alcohol and tobacco from buying it nor will it stop them from getting drugs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cattails
I think you need to be 21 before you buy/use marijane, I think alcohol does more harm to young people and older as well. In reality I don't have a dog in the fight, so it matters little to me.
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
"God help anyone who introduces either of my grandchildren to any of these drugs, I am old enough that I wouldn't spend many years in jail for that murder"-JazyD
Question: You gonna kill their 14 year old boyfriend/girlfriend if they were responsible? or what If they somehow discovered it and used it, (i hope they don't, btw, but it happens) and influenced somebody else? would you be ok with someone saying that about them? Pump the brakes my friend.
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheBluesZZZ
Let me add my two cents worth. Prohibitionists howl about cannabis legalization while whiskey and beer distilleries run wide open,tobacco kills millions, (more than ALL illegal drugs together). Then church goers line up on Monday morning to load up on antidepressants and millions of other mood enhancer prescriptions. Its as if hypocrisy has no limits. Then look at cannabis. Safer than aspirin but 22 million have been arrested with extortion to pay attorneys and jail and other fines amounting into the billions. Let me end with this. There have been three groups of people persecuted in this country and the first were the Indians, then the Blacks and in our generation , the cannabis users. Lets vote out ALL politicians who continue to insist (with great hypocrisy) that cannabis should stay illegal...........The BlueZZZ
I agree with most of this, but I wouldn't put cannabis users in the same BOOK, much less sentence, as Native Americans or African-Americans as to their struggles. Homosexuals are the ones of our generation who are fighting for equality, but that's an argument for another thread and another time...
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
You're probably right Cat, it was a poor comparison. However at no time in Black or the Indian history were there 22 million jailed Indians or Blacks. 22 million is a huge number and while not as horrible as the Trail of Tears or Slavery, it is a persecution of a large number of Americans. So its time to vote prohibitionist lawmakers out. Right now.........The BlueZZZ
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigsky
Since I was the ONE Montana Mayor to face the issue of Medical pot head on make it work for the city, patients, non smokers, I can tell you that the testimony and people who called me made a significant difference in my decision making. You are heartless and unknowing not to allow MMJ. And by "you" I mean the current president and his Feds whose attacks on Montana citizens are egregious.
Mayor Krauss' ordinance built on our local govt zoning and police powers to limit the # of providers, prohibit public use, keep providers in industrial zones only, not in retail, residential or entry ways, at least 1000 ft from schools, and we already prohibit off premises advertising so there was no proliferation of billboards.
Here is an excellent film about the issue in my state.
http://www.codeofthewestfilm.com/trailer
I was on a panel following the showing of the film in BZN.
Other Cities and towns ignored or banned.
My word what has our fed cov come to, that poor man gets min 80 years!!!!
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Party at my house tonight, bring your own buds. :sCo_huhsign: :lmao: :tongue08: :653: :sign0157:
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bigsky
The Obama administration did that.
Yet they called the 76,000 denied NICS background checks last year, which is often a felon trying to obtain a gun and failing, "paper violations" they chose to not prosecute. interesting priorities.
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
The hallucinations you mentioned gets to me. It is scary to watch a loved one not be themsevles. When I say scary I mean SCARY.
Worst I ever saw was my grandmother and I have no idea what type of pills she was on in the hospital--it was not pot. I say that to emphasize illegal and prescription drugs are not play things.
I don't drink and I doubt very, very seriously I would smoke pot. I think it should be legalized because the prohibion does not work. Not because I think it is harmless or whatever.
I would hope that people would avoid the stuff. Alcohol is legal but you don't have to drink it. Doctors once prescribed cocaine for headaches.
There is a great distinction in being good or healthy and being legal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazyd
I have not nor will I ever se any drugs legal or otherwise unless it is prescribed by my doctor and will not use the mari for sickness with cancer should I ever have that. My wife had cancer and was prescribed that pill to help with sickness, it only took one pill and watching her hallucinations while sitting on the bathroom floor unable to stand to et me know how I felt about it.My cousin went to jail for selling the wee and cannot work this day because of his habit
My neighbors son started on weed in jr hi school, stole at the mall and sold the things to get money to buy more. He graduate to more drugs and ended up committing suicide. He also scored 34 on his act test
Another friend from church had his oldest son commit suicide last fall while in college. According to the letter he left he started on weed and went from there
Two boys that graduated with my daughter, one suicide at age 27 from drugs, the other s a music groupie that stays stoned at age z31.
Darryl's great looking son, suicide, drugs
So all the trouble is claimed because it is illegal and there will be no trouble I guess if it is legal is what s being said.
The stories written here are all made it look like it was just a ball of fun to be stoned. I guess I don't find it to be funny
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Well, ive tried em all, and the thing that scares me is how messed up you can get in just a few minutes smoking pot. You legalize it and increase acceptance then your gonna have a ton of teens out there driving high. Medical use, why not. Legalizing a drug of any kind takes it from outlandish to acceptable to the masses. As for the war on drugs, that has its own issues.
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
I grew up in a neighborhood filled with this garbage. My next door neighbors brains were fried and many others around me were constantly out of their minds because of this. In my experience pot is FAR worse than alcohol and cigarettes. Like alcohol, some may use it and show no signs of deterioration, but a large fraction of homes will be destroyed by it.
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
badrose
Typical trip to McDonalds's:
You're in the drive-thru lane and the guys tell you what they want.
No way you can remember all that so you tell everybody to order for themselves.
You get to the order window: Welcome to McDonald's! Would you like to try blah blah, blah, blah, blah?
Everybody laughs.
Guys leaning all over each other to get to the window so the girl can hear. More laughing.
Girl reads back lengthy order. More, harder laughing.
Drive around to pay, get change back.
Drive forward. Forgot food.
Back up and get food.
Put foot on gas pedal. Oops! Still in reverse.
Everyone, including the girl at the window, laughing really hard.
Man, this is the best food ever!!!
IMO not much different than Drunk Driving. Not something I'd personally find funny. If pot was ever legalized, the penalty for DWS (driving while stoned) should be every bit as harsh as DWI (driving while intoxicated, aka DUI=driving under the influence)
As for the legalization, I'm fine with legalizing it. I'm fine with legalizing pretty much anything so long as its done responsibly and usage does not inhibit others freedoms.
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Can we get by the "it being illegal hasn't stopped it" excuse. The exact same thing could be stated nearly any crime. As an example I'll use alcohol to minors. We have laws the prohibit the sale of alcohol to minors yet I don't know any teenager that hasn't had alcohol so do we say lets forget about even trying? I think not. The get rid of laws because they don't work is a bogus argument in nearly every case its used. The law is there in part to punish violators as well as discourage use.
Personally, I'm with Jazy though. I find nothing funny about driving impaired. Some might even find it offensive. However as I stated above, what folks do to themselves is their business. Smoking, drinking, gay marriage etc, with the extreme being abortion... all fall in the same category for me. It's the individuals choice to do it or not, so long as others are not affected. I don't look at legalizing anything as a revenue generator, that's for sure but I do look at it from a personal choice end.
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doc
Can we get by the "it being illegal hasn't stopped it" excuse. The exact same thing could be stated nearly any crime. As an example I'll use alcohol to minors. We have laws the prohibit the sale of alcohol to minors yet I don't know any teenager that hasn't had alcohol so do we say lets forget about even trying? I think not. The get rid of laws because they don't work is a bogus argument in nearly every case its used. The law is there in part to punish violators as well as discourage use.
No, we can't, b/c it's a perfectly valid approach to policy making, as opposed to wishful thinking or using the power of the state to declare our beliefs and ignore a basic prima facia part of policy making, whether it will actually help solve the problem in a meaningful way.
Laws that are useless should be re-evaluated, challenged, and at times even scrubbed if they are a) doing none of the things for which they were intended, and b) causing ill in other ways. Laws don't exist simply as statements of our belief system. You can keep that approach in churches and such places where it belongs. In the world of Caesar it's about results, and if a law isn't working it's time to try something else.
A law doesn't have to be perfect, or have perfect enforcement, that's an absurd standard, but it does have to have a net benefit to society and ideally have the largest net benefit of the possible Constitutional alternatives. If it is not the optimal solution or in the end does more harm than good b/c we just want the world to be different then it needs to be modified, replaced, or scrapped altogether.
The law against minors buying alcohol does prevent some underage consumption, just as the ban on pot could prevent some underage pot consumption. But what are the negatives of the age limit on alcohol sales? Are millions of teens placed in the criminal justice system for underage drinking? Are we diverting lots of resources to sting everyone with liquor licenses? Of course not, b/c the current alcohol laws were made in response to the realization that a complete ban was doing almost nothing to reduce consumption but was causing massive ills in other ways. So instead of a complete ban we have laws prohibiting sales to minors, and while we know they are imperfect they can help somewhat WITHOUT causing a lot of other harm.
The cost/benefit of the law you cite makes sense. The cost/benefit of a complete ban on alcohol, or pot, does not, and it's ironic you chose a law created directly from the realization that the cost/benefit of a law is important and even more important in most cases than our moral or ethical beliefs. Laws about underage drinking are a direct result of the repeal of Prohibition, the national realization that a complete ban in such a free society was doing more harm than good.
So "it's not doing any good" or "being illegal hasn't stopped it" is in fact a very important point. Instead of going along fooling ourselves or making a point of principle while people are having lives ruined and being killed in droves it hopefully makes us question our current approaches and ask if there isn't something better. Like legalizing pot, regulating it much like alcohol or tobacco, taxing it and using the revenue to try to get people to stop using it or at least consume it responsibly.
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doc
IMO not much different than Drunk Driving. Not something I'd personally find funny. If pot was ever legalized, the penalty for DWS (driving while stoned) should be every bit as harsh as DWI (driving while intoxicated, aka DUI=driving under the influence)
As for the legalization, I'm fine with legalizing it. I'm fine with legalizing pretty much anything so long as its done responsibly and usage does not inhibit others freedoms.
This.
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
The good news, and I agree driving under the influence of anything that distorts reality is very dangerous, is that many "DUI" laws already cover illegal drug impairment in some fashion and many have been expanded to cover even legally prescribed drugs one should not take and drive or take to excess and get behind the wheel.
The tobacco and alcohol laws provide a great example of how you regulate consumption in public places, access by minors, pretty much every implementation issue. Fortunately or unfortunately we already have two very popular vices that have already been extensively addressed, we need only follow those lessons. Getting behind the wheel stoned or drunk or otherwise impaired is all equally bad to me, and is under many of our current laws.
For example Kentucky has a separate BAC level for those under 21 since they aren't supposed to be drinking at all in theory. It's 0.02%, near zero tolerance, and that is in addition to any possession charges. We'd have to come up with some measurement of "how stoned" I suppose, b/c even if the number is "0" we have to have a way to measure someone is over it. I'm sure that's doable.
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CitizenBBN
No, we can't, b/c it's a perfectly valid approach to policy making, as opposed to wishful thinking or using the power of the state to declare our beliefs and ignore a basic prima facia part of policy making, whether it will actually help solve the problem in a meaningful way.
Laws that are useless should be re-evaluated, challenged, and at times even scrubbed if they are a) doing none of the things for which they were intended, and b) causing ill in other ways. Laws don't exist simply as statements of our belief system. You can keep that approach in churches and such places where it belongs. In the world of Caesar it's about results, and if a law isn't working it's time to try something else.
A law doesn't have to be perfect, or have perfect enforcement, that's an absurd standard, but it does have to have a net benefit to society and ideally have the largest net benefit of the possible Constitutional alternatives. If it is not the optimal solution or in the end does more harm than good b/c we just want the world to be different then it needs to be modified, replaced, or scrapped altogether.
The law against minors buying alcohol does prevent some underage consumption, just as the ban on pot could prevent some underage pot consumption. But what are the negatives of the age limit on alcohol sales? Are millions of teens placed in the criminal justice system for underage drinking? Are we diverting lots of resources to sting everyone with liquor licenses? Of course not, b/c the current alcohol laws were made in response to the realization that a complete ban was doing almost nothing to reduce consumption but was causing massive ills in other ways. So instead of a complete ban we have laws prohibiting sales to minors, and while we know they are imperfect they can help somewhat WITHOUT causing a lot of other harm.
The cost/benefit of the law you cite makes sense. The cost/benefit of a complete ban on alcohol, or pot, does not, and it's ironic you chose a law created directly from the realization that the cost/benefit of a law is important and even more important in most cases than our moral or ethical beliefs. Laws about underage drinking are a direct result of the repeal of Prohibition, the national realization that a complete ban in such a free society was doing more harm than good.
So "it's not doing any good" or "being illegal hasn't stopped it" is in fact a very important point. Instead of going along fooling ourselves or making a point of principle while people are having lives ruined and being killed in droves it hopefully makes us question our current approaches and ask if there isn't something better. Like legalizing pot, regulating it much like alcohol or tobacco, taxing it and using the revenue to try to get people to stop using it or at least consume it responsibly.
Good job. Thanks for making my case in a classic "wall of text". The idea that a law doesn't work 100% of the time doesn't mean the law should be removed, as is frequently suggested. I'm sure there are some folks who don't smoke pot simply because it is illegal. Other folks ignore the law and do it anyway. That does not make the law useless or mean a law should be "scrubbed".
If the argument is its not fiscally responsible then fine. Make that argument. If the argument its not beneficial to society, great. Make that argument. If the argument is the punishment of the law is excessive then fine. Make that argument. If the argument is the law isn't enforceable then fine. Make that argument. But to simply suggest that because a law doesn't work it should be removed, as was suggested above, lacks a reason.
Re: Question for suncat: Legalizing pot: Good or bad idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazyd
Sorry but I see no reason whatsoever in introducing more young children to something that does nothing other than harming them physically.
I really shouldn't use any one specific post but picked this one because its the first to go down the road of cause and effect. I know folks who smoke pot that are not losers, who don't commit suicide, who have jobs, etc... I likely know more folks who commit suicide due to legal activities/circumstances such as stress and money issues. Alcohol is likely the best analogy. Lots of folks get in trouble with alcohol (this coming from somebody from a family with a long history of alcoholics), and I've seen it first hand (as you have) but not everybody has an issue. I don't think its strictly pots fault. IMO it's the person using it.
