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There is no thought or position that has been promoted on this site to suggest that democrats are good and republicans are bad.
We have heard many times how democrats are UnAmerican and unpatriotic on this board. Instead of quickly condemning bad behavior on the Conservative/Republican side the first response is Democrats are bad too.
Rarely in the conversations here does anyone on the conservative side criticize or condemn those on their own side.
There is a lack of willingness on the part of many people on the conservative side to say "yes. this was wrong on my guy/party's part and it must be condemned." No. It would appear that the end justifies the means for one side even if it means very fundamental conservatives views such as states' rights is thrown out the window to ensure their side wins.
I am a former Republican (who I guess is viewed as a Rhino or worse here) who could not stand with Donald Trump. Liberals don't call me liberal.
My concern about Trump and his threat to the rule of law and small "d" democratic principles would seem to be well founded.
In terms of voter integrity, we as a nation had a wake up call in the 2000 election to review election machines, procedures, etc.
Not a lot happened then. There is a big emphasis on states' rights and the responsibility of individual states establish its own procedures to carryout elections. And the issue went by the wayside.
With the concern of foreign influence in the 2016 election, there was a big push by Democrats to invest more money into securing the integrity of the election. Mitch McConnell wouldn't hear of it.
This election was going to generate a massive turnout as Trump is a lightening rod. He began his campaign to run in 2020 the day after he was sworn into office. Many of us have been campaigning against him and waiting to vote him out since day one.
So we were going to get a big crowd. Absentee/mail-in voting has increasingly become popular across the country. I voted early for John McCain, for example, back in 2008.
During an unprecedented pandemic that will see around 300,000 dead by new years, promoting early voting (that is what we did this year) and absentee mail in ballots seems like a great decision to me.
While the idea was squelched fairly quickly Trump did raise the possibility of not holding an election due to the pandemic. Trump, Kushner, Don Jr. all were quoted as raising speculation to try and not hold the election.
Trump then has railed against mail-in/absentee voting long before the ballots were cast. He planted seeds of doubt in this election very early. Heck in 2016 Trump ended his campaign talking about the system being rigged and that he would not think the electoral college is fair. Of course he won the electoral college and shut up about it.
Trump was a horrible winner in 2016 (his American carnage speech was the most tragic and stark view of America ever shared in a inaugural address) and is being a horrible loser in 2020.
The subject of this thread questions the possibility of a Republican Civil War? I don't think there will be one. The few Republican members of Congress will be subsumed by Trump and GOP will embrace a move to authoritarianism many thought not possible to take foothold in American politics.
And certainly democrats are not perfect and yes the far left could establish its own version of authoritarianism. In some circles of cancel culture they have done this. It is a danger but danger is even clearer and growing on the Republican party now.
The ultimate in counter culture is nullifying votes we don't agree with. The ultimate cancel culture is when Texas has the audacity to attempt to cancel the votes in Pennsylvania, Michigan, etc when those states voted differently than the Lone Star State.
This weekend the it would seem that the Proud Boys and their ilk have gone from standing back and standing by to entering the fray.
(note I corrected my misuse of the phrase counter culture; I meant cancel culture).
I condemn this action as I condemn all forms of looting, violence, and the destruction of public and private property. This also shows that when businesses in DC boarded up their doors and windows, it was extremists on either political spectrum, agitators on BOTH SIDES they feared. Proud Boys are the equivalent (edited for clarity)to the radical anarchists on the left. Criminals such as these will use any excuse to perpetuate violence and intimidation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ukpumacat
Tons of great thoughts here.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
The flag burning is a total disrespect for the United States and should never happen.
100%. What is also a total disrespect of the United States is the KKK, neo-nazis and white supremacists. Disenfranchising the rights of its citizenry is right there with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmanjack
All those groups are domestic terrorist groups and should be dealt with accordingly.
Absolutely. And one can't peacefully assemble and destroy property. Setting fires is unsafe. I hate to see the American flag burnt. It angers me under any circumstance. I find it counter productive to any change in national policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmanjack
I want to add the Proud Boys in that same group based on what I have seen coming from DC this weekend.
Btw, I should mention in case it isn't clear in the video. The banner they are burning was torn down off of a church. Several other churches were vandalized by the Proud Boys/Trump supporters as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ukpumacat
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...aff_story.html
that sign, whatever your opinion of blm, hung on a church. terrorism; religious persecution; destruction of private property; and other charges.
All of offenders committing such crimes, regardless of political affiliation or purpose in protesting, should be prosecuted for destruction of property and violence.
The frustration comes when in your city the riots and destruction is allowed to continue for months while they tear your city apart and then the mayor wants to use taxpayer money to clean up the city that he could not control.
Yes each should be prosecuted to the fullest.
Of course you only post these noble thoughts after Trump supporters create a disturbance in your city. Your statements would have had much more credibility had they been posted after riots in NYC, Minneapolis or Louisville.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
Mick,Quote:
Originally Posted by MickintheHam
You think what you want. And you will. I don't have to justify myself to a damn person on this board...let alone you.
And I am pretty sure I have said throughout the summer that there is no justification for violence. I know I have said that in these posts. I have also said that violence and destruction of property do not coexist with a peaceful demonstration.
I also said that while police have a difficult job brutality and abuse of civil liberty should not be tolerated. Law enforcement has a duty to serve and protect and not search and destroy. I am sure I posted the grave danger in Trump urging the use of military troops in the street and condemned his clearing of the area outside the White House prior to curfew for his photo op.
I am glad you think my words are noble. Because they are in this case. It would have been easy to say you agree with me; it would have been easy to find common ground. But you did not choose to do so.
Once again we have a conservative member of this board who has an opportunity to say, "I too condemn looters and violence of all stripes. Those protesters do not represent me".
But you didn't. What did you do? You came to mock me. You could not just say in this one case we agree. So I have to ask since you have gotten personal with me:
Do you stand with Goose steppers who desecrate private property and burn a sign from a church?
That is what we are talking about. That BLM sign was on church property and it was torn down. You may not agree with that message from a church but it was private property of a church that those people destroyed.
If you are unwilling to call out the brown shirts who are politically aligned with your larger political position, I have to ask would you personally march with those brown shirts?
You have questioned my integrity in this post. I question your integrity--directly, honestly and openly.
Do you live by the Constitution? Or do you wrap yourself in it to justify the American brown shirts goose stepping over the liberty of others?
If you think my words were noble stand with me where we agree on the larger points.
I got a double fist of that this summer. I was born in Louisville. That is home. So I hate to see what transpired. It breaks my heart. I watched in horror as vandals and looters destroyed property in DC too.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmanjack
Seeing the violence in Louisville was hard. And very honestly I have had to deal with some white collar crime that has made not only come back to supporting the death penalty, I wanted it expanded to include white collar criminals as well.
We have to cool down and see how we can do better.
First off police, we need to support law enforcement properly. It is an incredibly tough job. Part of support is training and tactics. Part of the support is changes in the law. Part of that is how people treat the police. Another topic for another time.
If memory serves I think you said that this was the first election in which you casted a vote. If I am remembering correctly, that is awesome.
We are in disagreement on some issues and I am sorry you voted the way you did, but I celebrate you exercising the franchise.
I'd rather all Americans vote and get involved than ignore it. Keep the lines open and listen to folks but keep voting.
Louisville had one day of what could be termed rioting or looting or whatever you want to call it, May 29th I think it was. There’s been the occasional broken window since then but the rest has just been protesters.
I am not sure about one day. I remember the police shooting the pepper spray at the wdrb reporter. I remember the chicken stand guy getting shot (after he may have fired at or at least in the vicinity of the police). The black militia discharged a rifle and hit a few of their own.
The whole situation has seemed tense and terrible watching things on-line and fearing for loved ones driving to Louisville, doctor appointments down town, etc.
Way more then one day.
I do not like or appreciate trump and many of his actions but I stayed the course and voted Republican because I do not believe in a lot of the policies being supported by the Democratic Party.
The drive towards a socialist government
Medical for all
Huge green deal
Eliminating gas and oil
I see these policies as control and dictating.
I am a free American and have worked extremely hard in my life to build my reputation and respect.
Not in line with the constant free handouts and the constant tax hikes.
You did mention some positives towards the police which I agree.
I feel the racial bias is a narrative that the NAACP and BLM need to keep drawing in the money, if those groups actually wanted to help their people it would be so much different.
I hear you. Thanks for sharing your rationale. There are legitimate concerns about the left and taken to an extreme those policies would harm America. Just like in my view right wing policies taken to the extreme hurt America.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmanjack
Me I have issues with Al Sharpton and those who want to paint everything is about race. That said I think race issues do impact and influence things in society that we don't always fully appreciate. Sometimes it is yes. Sometimes is no. There is bias and racial prejudice in my view. There is also misunderstandings in communication that impact. There are also bad guys on both sides.
Bad police or police who made an error. And criminals who are bad guys. In both instances that are not enough people willing to see that "their side" might be to blame.
There is a lot to digest. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Enjoyed and always enjoy others perspective, thanks!
Protesters and police/guard clashing yes but basically the only property damage was all on the 29th.
Maybe in your neck of the woods, but out here on the Jefferson/Bullitt county line the looting and rioting went on for about two weeks, but the media chose not to make that too well known. It might not have been to the degree of May 29th, but it did still go on out here, out the outer loop to New Cut road and the Jefferson Mall. I and my wife were witness to some of it and it wasn't just on May 29. As a matter of fact we couldn't wait to go to MBSC and leave all this foolishness in our rearview mirror with the grands and greats for a week. Stayed an extra day to keep from coming back...Quote:
Originally Posted by Catfan73
Some really good and wise words spoken in this thread. I would encourage both sides to listen a bit more and scream a bit less because there isn’t one right answer for such a large and diverse country as our, but there is a solution that will allow our great nation to carry on as one nation. We are certainly going to test the possibilities of our existence in the coming years. 2020 has been a year of great reflection and learning for myself, and I must say my views of the world are changing, or maybe being formed as my knowledge and interest grows. It’s been interesting to come into this year with a fairly neutral political view and try to study and decipher what is true and real and right by me. I’m really figuring out what I believe is right, and I’m surprised so many people do disagree on what seems to be obviously right vs wrong. Some topics are difficult and may not have a right answer, but many do seem obvious to me and yet so many disagree. I’ve enjoyed this and honestly this board is one place I tend to cling to for hearing from people I know who are highly intelligent, on both sides.
I had occasion just before Christmas to gather informally for a few hours with 8 Tea Party organizers. These people were grass roots organizers in Alabama years ago. Three hold office in the state Republican Party, two were delegates to the last two Republican conventions, and one was an organizer for Senator Tuberville and will be on his staff. For the record three of these people have been friends of mine for years, predating the Tea Party movement. I differ with some of their views, but have never let differences affect the friendship with very loyal friends. Needless to say I spent the evening listening, not wishing to debate. The conversation was fascinating and informative. Several of these people have worked in other states to organize Tea Parties and to work on National Campaigns for Senate, House and Presidential Candidates who are strong conservatives. They are very knowledgable of what is going on in the Trump Campaign, the Georgia Senate Races and in the various tea parties around the nation.
I can say with a lot of confidence, it will be the Tea Party organizers, the Republican Party officials, and Trump supporters fully working for the Georgia Republican Senate Candidates. Several of these people will be working in Georgia the next two weeks. There are no rifts between conservatives and Trump. And with the Democrat move to the radical left, the numbers of people supporting the Republican ideas are growing. I don't see it slowing down. The Mitt Romney's will either change or face stiff opposition in their next primary. My guess is all factions of the Republican Party will find a way to support other Republicans in the face of socialist agendas. There are no consequential fissures in the Republican Party in the post election period. There will be a shuffling within leadership, but many of the Trump ideas will live throughout a radical Presidency. Biden's toughest job will be to reign in radical democrats. Shumer and Pelosi have had a tough time to date.
Here at home and in northern TN and southern OH, the Republican party supporters are a bit different. They fully support many of Trump's ideas, and his domestic and foreign policies. His major initiatives are fully supported and appreciated, but there is not much support for the man himself. He could not get elected for any office in any of those geographical areas unless he were running against a full blown loony liberal, and people would still search for an alternative to him.Quote:
There are no rifts between conservatives and Trump.
In 4 years we will be looking for a replacement that will pic up the pieces and run sleepy Joe and his fake minority partner out of office.
Maybe you mis-read or misinterpreted what I said. I spoke of the Trump Campaign, not the man. Trump is the reason Trump lost, not his ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_bgblue
I can say with a lot of confidence, it will be the Tea Party organizers, the Republican Party officials, and Trump supporters fully working for the Georgia Republican Senate Candidates.Quote:
Originally Posted by MickintheHam
There are no rifts between conservatives and Trump.
I am not sure what I misread, but am willing to say I did, and move on.
I am distinguishing between Trump and Trump supporters. The man is the enigma. Many support him and do not like him. I believe we are saying the same thing.
Thanks, would enjoy hearing that discussion, I find the interest growing inside to understand the political moving and shaking.
:trink39:
"If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed.......and we will deserve it."
Lindsey Graham
The GOP is already destroyed in terms of what it believed at its core.
It now favors Federal intervention of state sovereignty and disenfranchisement of voters.
It concedes the ideal of American exceptionalism in favor of transactional diplomacy. And oh yeah democracy as a preferred form of government.
What I am about to post is simply anecdotal. It may mean absolutely nothing. While I know that true Trump supporters are faithful until the end....and while I know there are many that are so against what they see as a shift toward socialism that they will stick with Trump and Republicans no matter what....not everyone will.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
I have had two friends in the past two weeks who are staunch conservatives. Christian conservatives. Both voted for Trump twice. And both (in different words and in different ways) communicated to me they are done. They won't vote for a Dem, but they will never vote for another Republican after what they have seen after the election.
These are not moderates. These are hard core fiscal and social conservatives.
But both believe that to support Trump as many top Republicans have is to support autocracy and fascism. One called it the "most dangerous time in the history of our country".
Does this mean anything? Maybe not. But I would guess there are many more like them out there.
One more odd and "only Trump" tidbit.
I listened to the entire one hour phone call. Its utter nonsensical rambling. Its all over the place. And then of course its illegal and seditious.
Besides all of that, there was one line that was just....odd.
At one point when Trump is talking to the SOS, he says to his lawyer, "You have a nice last name".
The lawyer's name is Ryan Germany. You just can't make this stuff up.
Here is an article in the Post today https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...555_story.html concerning the split within the party.
Puma, as for your friends I would say they are patriots for their decision to not support Trump and moving away from the party for now at least. I'd like to see the middle democrats and republicans come together to form a new party that better represents most Americans. Left or right, extremism is bad and both lead to authoritarianism.
At the heart of Trump's presidency is a commitment to a hedonistic quest for power that favors lawlessness and bully tactics. That must be fought at every instance.
Totally supported and needed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by UKHistory
Republicrats?
Libertarian?
I doubt it would be libertarian. Libertarians are actually a pretty big tent that houses conservatives, liberals and a weird sect of anarchists. One thing most agree on, the government is too big, wields too much power and takes to much of its citizens money in the form of taxes. I’m not sure they would agree on much else though....
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBluePappy