Donald Trump committing voter fraud?

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Originally Posted by StuBleedsBlue2

:sHa_clap2:

Very well said.

It doesn't surprise me at all that there were so many replies of "what about ..." that are false talking points from Trump and right wing media.

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They aren't "talking points", and there is your condescension showing again. We aren't being told to say these things and repeating them like lapdogs. If Trump hadn't questioned a single vote I would believe the same exact things I believe about our process, etc.

These "talking points" have been issues for our process long before Trump came along.

As for the deflecting thing, you guys want to have a trial with some pretty narrow rules of evidence. The truth is what Trump is doing is far more legal than the Russia hoax method of challenging an election, and in the end this is nothing bout a delay and even an annoyance.

He's suing for recounts. OMG, it's the end of democracy!

Just like how questioning the judiciary when Trump does it is the end of the world, but calling for court packing is all perfectly OK.

As for Trump, it's inaccurate to look at his actions in a vacuum, though that has been the position of his enemies all along.

"Oh my God, he's undermined the Supreme Court and Democracy by criticizing their decision".

"Uh, every President has criticized the Supreme Court from time to time, from Obama to Madison".

"You're just trying to deflect from what evil thing Trump has done."

No, we're trying to put Trump's actions into actual perspective.

What you want is a trial where we try Joe for shooting Tom, but we can't submit into evidence that Tom was breaking into Joe's house at the time. "This is about what Joe did, not what Tom did." Uh huh.

The Democrats staged a 4 year attempt to undermine a legitimately elected President by casting doubt on his loyalties and outright claiming the election was the result of foreign influence and deep corruption at the highest levels of our elected offices.

Not one lamented how that would hurt democracy or our institutions.

Now we need to sit that aside and focus on how Trump has taken that playbook and is running the same kind of plays. Of course except Trump is following the law while the FBI and others did not.

When Trump criticized the judiciary it was the end of the world. Now the Dems call for court packing and it's somehow not the same at all.

This is the same thing. When the Left undermines an election with nonsense it's OK, when Trump does it we need to just talk about Trump.

I in no way mean to lump everyone into a group. Remember I am not just talking to my friends here I am talking to three family member and my partner in the cd's production, as well as others I am acquainted with. And the few pundits and followers of "The Donald" In as generalized way as is possible in a discussion where we disagree.
The first four I mentioned are Qanon followers.

Not everyone here, or elsewhere, is being singled out in any way. In most instances I don't have proof of how convinced anyone is of anything they might post.
Nor whether they may have drawn such a line as I mentioned but will not mention it here, because it isn't met presently.

I do feel strongly about this, but let's again try not to read each other too harshly on such a sensitive subject. We can disagree without overt anger if we try.
I respect an opinion even if I think it very wrong. But I of all people know how easy it is to consider yourself being attacked, when your view is the intended target.

A tough distinction to make.

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The first four I mentioned are Qanon followers.

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I am sorry about that but I do wish you would not bring them or their misguided ideas into the discussion here. I for one am trying to contribute to a sensible discussion, and I can not do that when QAnon is being made part of the discussio0n.

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Originally Posted by catmanjack

It’s my damn tax money, Stu you are very delusional, I understand where puma is coming from but not you at all.

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It’s my tax dollars too being spent in KY.

Do you not understand that for every dollar that Kentuckians pay in taxes, they receive two dollars back?

If there are people that complain about how their tax dollars are being spent, it should start and end with the people in states that are subsidizing states like KY.

Your tax dollars don’t do anything outside your state.

That shouldn’t be something difficult to understand.

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

They aren't "talking points", and there is your condescension showing again.

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They are talking points and void of fact. And, once again, you are perceiving condescension with simply not standing for BS.

I made a point in another thread last week about watching Fox News. There are persuasive positions on the right, but they are SO diluted with lies.

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Originally Posted by dan_bgblue

I am sorry about that but I do wish you would not bring them or their misguided ideas into the discussion here. I for one am trying to contribute to a sensible discussion, and I can not do that when QAnon is being made part of the discussio0n.

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That makes zero sense to me Dan. I was making a point that I believe everyone understood. I did not bring any issue of theirs or Qanons to this board.
My point, which it seems you overlooked, was that everyone responds on an issue having been influenced by their everyday life and the people they know. And they should not take it too personally.

Something I believe we should all aspire to comprehend. But I guess it did not work.
It was an effort at moderation that you have an obvious problem with (poor as it might be), and nothing related to discussing issues. Meant to help, not to hurt.

I'm always interested in what you have to add to this or any discussion.

As I look back on it, my post above which was meant to help (since I added to the argumentative atmosphere myself)...and I digress. It is perhaps the most longwinded attempt to say something simple in the history of writing.

Forgive me

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Originally Posted by StuBleedsBlue2

They are talking points and void of fact. And, once again, you are perceiving condescension with simply not standing for BS.

I made a point in another thread last week about watching Fox News. There are persuasive positions on the right, but they are SO diluted with lies.

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I don't watch Fox News. OR any spoonfed news drivel.

They aren't talking points, as I learned about them in the study of US history and from the simple common sense of being able to see how to game a system.

And yes that's your condescension. You don't engage with the issue with analysis, you dismiss, mostly with logical fallacies.

There are numerous obvious ways to cheat in an election. I don't know how much it can be done in sheer quantity, but the failure points are obvious and I've railed against them since long before Trump arrived.

In fact poor backward Kentucky is one of the few states to have at least a decent election system in place, since many counties are automated, ID is required and you have to be registered to vote in your district.

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Originally Posted by kingcat

It is perhaps the most longwinded attempt to say something simple in the history of writing.

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Hey man, don't start stepping on my turf. Long, convoluted, longwinded posts is my street corner. Go get your own gimmick. :)

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Hey man, don't start stepping on my turf. Long, convoluted, longwinded posts is my street corner. Go get your own gimmick. :)

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:unworthy:

lol

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Hey man, don't start stepping on my turf. Long, convoluted, longwinded posts is my street corner. Go get your own gimmick. :)

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Ha

I give Mitt credit here. Granted, he’s independently wealthy, in a safe seat and loved by his state. So it’s easier for him to speak out than others.
But, he’s a genuine conservative and it’s nice to see someone say it on that side of the aisle.

https://twitter.com/mittromney/statu...447573504?s=21

Ps. Joni Erst did today as well. I genuinely think that presser jumped the shark for a lot these folks. We will see others speak out in the next few days.

Sasse speaks out now as well. Keep em coming.

https://twitter.com/foxreports/statu...065878016?s=21

“We are a nation of laws, not tweets.”

Haha. He is not a fan of the man.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

I give Mitt credit here. Granted, he’s independently wealthy, in a safe seat and loved by his state. So it’s easier for him to speak out than others.
But, he’s a genuine conservative and it’s nice to see someone say it on that side of the aisle.

https://twitter.com/mittromney/statu...447573504?s=21

Ps. Joni Erst did today as well. I genuinely think that presser jumped the shark for a lot these folks. We will see others speak out in the next few days.

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You beat me to it was just about to post the same thing.


These are strong and accurate words. It's not just "threat to democracy" hyperbole.

To minimize or deny what is happening in these current times shows a real lack of understanding and knowledge of history. To imply that this is just another partisan era of politics, just another ego is, or this is not as bad as this or that really shows a lack of ability to comprehend the severity and consequences of the division and how one person can influence. It is beyond trying to understand how we got here and more about how we can, over time, get to a better place.

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Originally Posted by StuBleedsBlue2

You beat me to it was just about to post the same thing.


These are strong and accurate words. It's not just "threat to democracy" hyperbole.

To minimize or deny what is happening in these current times shows a real lack of understanding and knowledge of history. To imply that this is just another partisan era of politics, just another ego is, or this is not as bad as this or that really shows a lack of ability to comprehend the severity and consequences of the division and how one person can influence. It is beyond trying to understand how we got here and more about how we can, over time, get to a better place.

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We can start with this.

I have acknowledged on here from the outset that what Trump is doing is political. I do think there is fraud in our election system, and thought it way before Trump was on the scene, but I don't know how much.

But what Trump is doing is definitely political.

Can you now acknowledge that the entire Russia/Mueller investigation was also purely political, that it was conceived for political purposes and also undermined the legitimacy of a duly elected President for pure political purposes?

I criticize the GOP on here frequently, and I know almost all of what we see from both parties is just political theater. Liberal leaders don't lie awake at night worried about the homeless sleeping in the streets, and conservative leaders don't toss and turn over the national debt. They just worry about winning and staying in power.

If we can stop buying their puppet show, and stop with the demonization of anyone who dares disagree with our ideology, then we can probably make some progress on narrowing that division.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a racist, and not everyone who disagrees with me is a Communist. We can start there.

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

We can start with this.

I have acknowledged on here from the outset that what Trump is doing is political. I do think there is fraud in our election system, and thought it way before Trump was on the scene, but I don't know how much.

But what Trump is doing is definitely political.

Can you now acknowledge that the entire Russia/Mueller investigation was also purely political, that it was conceived for political purposes and also undermined the legitimacy of a duly elected President for pure political purposes?

I criticize the GOP on here frequently, and I know almost all of what we see from both parties is just political theater. Liberal leaders don't lie awake at night worried about the homeless sleeping in the streets, and conservative leaders don't toss and turn over the national debt. They just worry about winning and staying in power.

If we can stop buying their puppet show, and stop with the demonization of anyone who dares disagree with our ideology, then we can probably make some progress on narrowing that division.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a racist, and not everyone who disagrees with me is a Communist. We can start there.

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Chuck, I thought the impeachment was stupid when it happened and have posted this for a while. For a few reasons. Yes, like you said, it was politically driven. But more than that (from my pov which was not your point)...it was politically stupid.
The House knew there was zero chance the Senate was impeaching him. So the entire point was political theatre. To get back at him. I thought it was terribly conceived and I thought it was harmful to Democratic causes. And I think it hurt down the ballot in this election.
I also disagreed with how they handled the Kavanaugh hearing. I am all for (and was with Kavanaugh) investigating sexual misconduct. I am not for public spectacles that are done purely for political reasons. That was a clown show. And all it did was further divide the country.
I am simply not a fan of Pelosi or Schumer and haven't been for some time. I am also not a fan of Mitch.
This division did not start with Trump. And it won't end with him either.

Last thing...as much as we can agree on some election changes...I would love to see some primary changes. We have a system that drives candidates to their extremes and rewards the most extreme. This is going to get worse, not better.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Chuck, I thought the impeachment was stupid when it happened and have posted this for a while. For a few reasons. Yes, like you said, it was politically driven. But more than that (from my pov which was not your point)...it was politically stupid.
The House knew there was zero chance the Senate was impeaching him. So the entire point was political theatre. To get back at him. I thought it was terribly conceived and I thought it was harmful to Democratic causes. And I think it hurt down the ballot in this election.
I also disagreed with how they handled the Kavanaugh hearing. I am all for (and was with Kavanaugh) investigating sexual misconduct. I am not for public spectacles that are done purely for political reasons. That was a clown show. And all it did was further divide the country.
I am simply not a fan of Pelosi or Schumer and haven't been for some time. I am also not a fan of Mitch.
This division did not start with Trump. And it won't end with him either.

Last thing...as much as we can agree on some election changes...I would love to see some primary changes. We have a system that drives candidates to their extremes and rewards the most extreme. This is going to get worse, not better.

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You and I have agreed on both modern impeachments.

But the question I asked was tougher. Can you admit the entire Russia/Mueller thing was a political concoction? that's the one that most of my liberal friends have to swallow hard on.

But it was. First, every politician in Washington has ties to foreign lobbyists. Hillary's campaign manager's brother is a registered foreign agent for Heaven's sake, it's everywhere. It was well known Russia was running bots etc. in the election, but there was no tie to Trump and they knew it.

Then we spend $50 million with all that prosecutorial power and find nothing. not a single case of collusion, even by the lower ranks.

And people still cling to it as if it's true. It was never true. It was a political construct pushed by the politicians and media to undermine Trump and tie him up politically.

If they wanted to investigate obvious ties to foreign powers they would have gone after the CLintons, who took hundreds of millions for a foundation they ran, with an 8 page letter from one of their handlers admitting to influence peddling, with cash payments from Russian interests for Bill Clinton speeches, and with Uranium One being approved. Not to mention destroyed emails and devices, etc. IF ever there was a case to investigate we had one, and nothing.

All of this is politics. Pelosi doesn't give a **** about the homeless of San Francisco, Newsom doesn't care if your holiday sucks or not.

The reason Trump and Bernie rose to prominence is b/c people are figuring out that our established elites don't are about us and are just speaking platitudes on both sides. The Tea Party, Bernie's rise, all of it is a POpulist revolt against the ruling class, b/c on both sides that ruling class is selling us out.

It's not left v. right, it's top v. bottom.

Which is why I'm a libertarian. B/c it diffuses the top from having power over us.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Where there are problems, let's fix them.

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All Voter Fraud Matters :)

Btw, Andrew Guiliani has Covid. He was part of Trump's legal team that has been holed up in a small meeting room. It probably explains why Rudy was sweating profusely (not kidding) in yesterday's clown show. He likely has it as well. Which means their entire legal team was exposed. And anyone else in that tiny room for the press conference yesterday.


https://www.axios.com/trump-giuliani...source=twitter

In one of the affidavits they filed, the lawyers confused Minnesota (MN) with Michigan (MI). They used Michigan voter totals and Minnesota population totals. This is where they were trying to prove more people voted in Michigan than there are people.

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archiv...-are-doing.php

Honest question:

In our Nation's History, can anyone think of an instance where a sitting U.S. President attempted to subvert the will of the American people and stay in the White House?

And I am asking this seriously, not trying to make a point.

I am not talking about claiming there was fraud or filing a lawsuit. That has happened a few times that I can remember. But I cannot remember a President going this far. Actually meeting with Michigan Legislature leaders hoping they will ignore the vote and appoint their own electors.
Rudy G actually said this was part of their plan to overturn the election. To get legislatures to appoint different electors.

I was a History Major and cannot remember it happening. But, just curious if anyone else can. Has this ever happened?

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Honest question:

In our Nation's History, can anyone think of an instance where a sitting U.S. President attempted to subvert the will of the American people and stay in the White House?

And I am asking this seriously, not trying to make a point.

I am not talking about claiming there was fraud or filing a lawsuit. That has happened a few times that I can remember. But I cannot remember a President going this far. Actually meeting with Michigan Legislature leaders hoping they will ignore the vote and appoint their own electors.
Rudy G actually said this was part of their plan to overturn the election. To get legislatures to appoint different electors.

I was a History Major and cannot remember it happening. But, just curious if anyone else can. Has this ever happened?

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THat's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question.

Trump isn't trying to stay in office. He's setting up for his campaign that will run for 4 years. he's not "subverting the will of the American people", he's playing politics. You know it and so do I and so does everyone else.

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

THat's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question.

Trump isn't trying to stay in office. He's setting up for his campaign that will run for 4 years. he's not "subverting the will of the American people", he's playing politics. You know it and so do I and so does everyone else.

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Ha. I didn't mean it that way. I am asking honestly about precedent. I think he doesn't think it will work. But I think he is trying. Rudy G said he was.

But honestly, ignore Trump for a moment.

What happens if the State Board of Electors (2 Democrats and 2 Republicans) in Michigan refuse to certify the election results? That is an absolute threat to democracy. It has never ever happened that I can think of. That is what I am trying to ask.
And because there is no precedent, no one knows what will happen. Trump is meeting with the Republican Legislative leaders hoping it goes to them and that they will select their own electors.
My best understanding is that a judge could/would force them to certify or hold them in contempt. But no one seems to know since it has never happened.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Ha. I didn't mean it that way. I am asking honestly about precedent. I think he doesn't think it will work. But I think he is trying. Rudy G said he was.

But honestly, ignore Trump for a moment.

What happens if the State Board of Electors (2 Democrats and 2 Republicans) in Michigan refuse to certify the election results? That is an absolute threat to democracy. It has never ever happened that I can think of. That is what I am trying to ask.
And because there is no precedent, no one knows what will happen. Trump is meeting with the Republican Legislative leaders hoping it goes to them and that they will select their own electors.
My best understanding is that a judge could/would force them to certify or hold them in contempt. But no one seems to know since it has never happened.

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Why do you see that as a threat to democracy?

Say they don't certify. Will Michigan decide to not have any elections in the future? Will the nation?

What exactly will it do, other than what we saw this year with even more people ginned up and out voting?

It's unprecedented, in an era of unprecedented.

Reid eliminating the filibuster for judicial appointments was unprecedented, a Senate rule that had stood basically since 1970, though cloture goes back to the early 1900s. Then McConnell raises the unprecedented to eliminate it for SCOTUS. Schumer is threatening to eliminate it completely, which would be truly unprecedented going back to a time when the Senate was elected by state legislatures.

We haven't even tried to pack a court since FDR failed, and that's on the table at least in threat.

We're in the middle of a 100 year political crisis, which is why I often cite the Hurst/Pulitzer days to describe our current media. Not a coincidence btw that we have a handful of companies that now control most of our news media, much as Hurst and Pulitzer were the dominant controlling voices of the media in that era.

But is it a threat to democracy? I fail to see what it is going to do that is going to in any way curtail the democratic process in the long run. If anything it's fueling the fire to vote.

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

But is it a threat to democracy? I fail to see what it is going to do that is going to in any way curtail the democratic process in the long run. If anything it's fueling the fire to vote.

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What?!? It isn't about future elections (well, not yet). If the will of the people is not honored, and different electors were chosen by the State legislature....and those electors chose a different candidate than the people voted into office....that isn't even a "threat to democracy" its an actual attack on it.
I literally cannot believe this is even debatable.

What would even be the point of voting if the will of the voters isn't honored??

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

What?!? It isn't about future elections (well, not yet). If the will of the people is not honored, and different electors were chosen by the State legislature....and those electors chose a different candidate than the people voted into office....that isn't even a "threat to democracy" its an actual attack on it.
I literally cannot believe this is even debatable.

What would even be the point of voting if the will of the voters isn't honored??

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Well first off, to answer you question, this has exactly happened before, 1877 when Rutherford B Hayes was elected despite his opponent getting a majority of votes and the electoral count, due to the refusal of 3 states to certify the results for one or the other candidate. The whole thing was thrown to a special commission of Congress and Hayes emerged.

Then there is the election of 1824 when Jackson won a plurality but not a majority of electors in a 3 way race, and Henry Clay brokered a deal to make JQA the POTUS if he became Sec of State.

So it's happened, and democracy survived just fine.

I just take issue with everything the last 4 years being "a threat to democracy" or the Constitution, 99.9% of it from Trump.

It's just not going to happen. The course of democracy wasn't changed in 1877, wasn't changed in 1824, wasn't changed when Bush I and Gore was decided by SCOTUS along party lines, etc.

There's actually a lot of precedent for these things happening, and none has unhinged us.

And that goes to what I see as the hyperbole of "why vote if the vote isn't honored". In fact a lot of times in our history the vote wasn't "honored", depending on who you ask, and we got along fine the next time. In fact many now claim the vote isn't honored by the entire Electoral College system. They're wrong, but they sure believe it.

I'm just not a person given to hyperbole.

Esp. when the real threats have nothing to do with this stage drama. The real undoing of things will come if the filibuster ends or SCOTUS is packed. Biden won't pack the court and neither will the Senate, but they may be able to end the filibuster. That's going to be very very tempting.

That is a real, long term structural change that is a threat. Most of the rest of this is just theater. In the end biden will be POTUS, Trump will run a 4 year campaign to run again, and us pissants will all go about our lives and still vote like we have in every other election. Nothing will actually change if Michigan doesn't certify, any more than it changed in 1877 or 2000.

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Well first off, to answer you question, this has exactly happened before, 1877 when Rutherford B Hayes was elected despite his opponent getting a majority of votes and the electoral count, due to the refusal of 3 states to certify the results for one or the other candidate. The whole thing was thrown to a special commission of Congress and Hayes emerged.

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I will have to go back and read up on that. Thanks.

I don't know if it will be enough for the two Democratic candidates...but I still think all of this hurts the Republicans in the Senate run-offs. As I posted in the other thread, none of this plays well with that small % of movable voters.

Trump lost and Osoff still didn't win on the same ballot. Which means there are some Biden voters they can sway. The bases will both come out. But all of this nonsense just does not work with them. They watch the Rudy G stuff and just think he's crazy. They don't watch OANN or read Breitbart.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

They watch the Rudy G stuff and just think he's crazy.

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I consider myself fairly center, but keep in mind some of think both are crazy.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

I will have to go back and read up on that. Thanks.

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I'm weak on that one. I spent a lot of time in the 19th century but less on politics and more on political economy.

But I had a great class in the Age of Jackson and spent a lot of time on the 1824 election and later Jackson administration. Of course Jackson's base was so outraged they came out in 1828 and made him POTUS, and made JQA a one term President. A very familiar situation.

Actually that election and the subsequent 4 year campaign for Jackson may be instructive here on a few levels.

It's a great example of why I'm not too moved by the current hyperbole. In the running 1824 to 1828 election, as with any at that time, it was bitter and personal. Jackson was accused of everything from bigamy to cannibalism in the Coffin Handbills, and JQA was accused of being an agent for the Russian Czar while he was Ambassador to Russia and of course a host of other things.

Honestly the old days had nothing on QAnon. They made up all kinds of outrageous nonsense.

Then there were the Jackson supporters who, in support of "Old Hickory", brought hickory sticks to polling places to "encourage" voting the right way.

What we see today has nothing on the history of American elections, in either bitterness or brazenness or truthfulness.

Oh, and a PS for what we will see soon: Jackson in 1828 refused to go to the White House as was then customary, and JQA didn't go to the inauguration. It was very bitter.

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Oh, and a PS for what we will see soon: Jackson in 1828 refused to go to the White House as was then customary, and JQA didn't go to the inauguration. It was very bitter.

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Ya, the Jackson stuff was intense. I love the stories of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. Two guys that hated each other in politics, wrote letters arguing about it (a modern day message board), and then gained tons of respect for each other and became lifelong friends. Died the exact same day, states apart...July 4th. Cool stuff.

I'm oddly interested to see what happens on Inauguration Day. If you were placing bets on whether Trump goes...?

A dangerous time for democracy. I agree with Mitt Romney.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnPLKmQX...g&name=900x900

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Originally Posted by kingcat

A dangerous time for democracy. I agree with Mitt Romney.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnPLKmQX...g&name=900x900

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Agreed. I also don’t buy that because it was tested before and passed that it can’t fail later. Every great empire eventually falls.

Besides that sentiment, there’s a “too big to fail” mentality, but when you have nearly 50m people that is ready to disavow democracy in favor of a wannabe authoritarian who has abandoned allies and warmed up to enemies and dictators, it’s very difficult NOT to question whether this is the time.

He has divided us. He has attacked our freedoms, declaring them our enemies. He has denigrated our soldiers and intelligence communities in favor of our enemies. He has violated our Constitution. He has broken laws in office. I can go on and on. The fact that it is just fine with so many and those people tend to have an intense hatred for their fellow Americans, a desire to “own” them. It’s a lethal and unprecedented challenge to our Democracy.

Thankfully he lost and we may not get to see what he would do with unlimited powers.

Republican Senator Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania joins the others mentioned above. Just released a statement (after Rudy's latest lawsuit was dismissed):

Attachment 9812

Strong statement honestly. Especially his Michigan comments. That whole "invite Michigan Representatives to Washington, put them up in Trump tower and serve them $500 bottles of Dom" while openly asking the Republican legislature of Michigan to "do the right thing" on twitter (send different electors and ignore the vote) isn't playing well.
And more and more GOP Senators are going to do this. They are all weighing the danger...piss off Trump and his followers by doing the right thing or alienate all moderate Republicans and independents and subvert the voters.

And of course Trump has now attacked the Republican judge and Toomey.
These are always warning shots to others speaking out but they seem to have lost their effectiveness of late.

Another strong statement from Chris Christie. Calls Trump's legal team/tactics a "National Embarrassment".

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1...705651206?s=20

For those keeping score.

The legal team of Donald Trump is now alleging that communist money was funneled through Venezuela to Republican Governor Brian Kemp to elect Joe Biden as President (but of course won't produce any evidence. Its just what she has "heard".)

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/st...062085122?s=20

For any of you who think QAnon is just a fringe group in the Republican Party....it has now infiltrated Trump's legal defense team.

From an American standpoint: this is dangerous, awful and disgusting.

From a Political standpoint: this is a complete and utter disaster. Its driving die hard Republicans to come out in support of Biden. And its made those more moderate Republicans who voted for Biden but otherwise Republican down ballot have to choose between a candidate and a gross conspiracy. Its just stupid politics.

Rich Lowry, hyper conservative editor of the National Review just tweeted:

"It’s the all-purpose, burn-it-all-down, give-Joe-Biden-control-of-the-Senate conspiracy theory".

https://twitter.com/RichLowry/status...438974977?s=20

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Another strong statement from Chris Christie. Calls Trump's legal team/tactics a "National Embarrassment".

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1...705651206?s=20

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It's very hard to admit one is mistaken about a man's character after giving him total trust. Trump succeeded in villainizing even George Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney who were stalwarts of the republican party and admired here for their character and leadership qualities. That, until they were told to believe otherwise.

And those who have went all in...seemingly have no recourse in where they apply their loyalty even if it means joining our enemies in bringing reproach to our country by accusations that amount to calling her a farce and a sham.

Even in defiance of those like the head of Homeland Security...who was immediately fired because he dare defend the United States against such accusations. Such defiance is actually not against democrats this time despite trying to paint it as such....it's against the United States of America.
And there is no word, many will believe except the word of Mr Trump. It does not matter what that may be.

The new Trump mantra should be changed from MAGA to MASE at this point.
Make America Something Else
It's nearing time for everyone to choose and let history decide the wisdom of that choice. In that light, maybe some will reconsider before it's too late.

Now, I firmly believe my friends here are also weighing these things in their mind. And I would not, by choice, want to offend any. Except in hope they consider that folks like me, just may be right in this instance.
I will defend any attack against my country with whatever voice is afforded me. And it is an attack imo.

And I will try not to post much more on the subject here. Everyone is entrenched in, and by their opinion.