Presidential Prediction...Our own Crystal Ball

Let's investigate the democrats who spoke to the Ukranians. I am good with that. I they used their power, then they should be at least censured.

Senators don't outrank a president who did in fact hold up badly needed military aid.

With regards to Biden's son, the Ukranians had said nothing was up. But all right if the Ukranians determine there is a reason for them to investigate Biden's son then fine.

In this case Trump's request to Zelensky provides him election support from a foreign nation. He got help from the Russians, openly and publicly asked for their help, and let Zelensky know that financial assistance which had been held up before the call would get support from Trump.

That is an issue. Trump abuses his position. The DOJ says a sitting president can not be indicted for a crime and he is pushing the boundaries of acceptable behavior as President.

There is a level of corruption and bad behavior in all people. Democrats are not saints. But Trump is worse than all of them.

He has no shame and no love for this country--only his own self interests.

Nancy Pelosi is not my ideal candidate to carry the flag for truth, justice and the American way. But with republicans capitulating to an autocrat, I will take my allies to defend the Constitution against enemies foreign and domestic where I can get them.

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Originally Posted by Catfan73

I don’t usually get into these kind of discussions but here’s my take (and I’m obviously not alone): Trump basically attempted to bribe Ukraine to the tune of $400 million taxpayer dollars. The constitution says a president that commits treason, bribery, or other high crimes shall be impeached and removed from office. Whatever Biden may have done is kind of beside the point. They HAVE to impeach. Period.

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You base that conclusion on what? Trump requested the Ukraine look into potential illegal acts by the former Vice President. This is something that the President has the right and obligation to do. There is an assumption that money would be withheld if they did but there is no evidence of such, and there is the assumption that his motive was "dirt on Biden" when if what Biden is accused of doing, is a crime. The President is the head of the executive branch, and the executive branch is responsible for enforcing laws. It says so in the Constitution. If Joe Biden broke the law, as clearly he suggested he did when he ran his trap, then it is 100% appropriate for the executive branch, ie the President, to follow and investigate. Adam Schiff et al have drawn the conclusion, and the media has forwarded the theory as FACT that Trumps motive was "to influence the upcoming election" because they take anything and everything Trump does and pervert it into the most nefarious act that it can be. Simply put, Joe Biden broke the law, and the Executive Branch has both the right and the responsibility to investigate that PERIOD.

The Legislative branch (Congress) WRITES the laws
Judicial (SCOTUS) INTERPRETS the laws
Executive (President) ENFORCES the laws.

it is civics 101.




I will say when the allegation initially came out, I was concerned. After reading the transcripts and listening to the farse hearings run by Schiff, I have come to be so not concerned because it is clearly yet another hack job. My opinion but as I stated, initially I was concerned but this pesky thing called evidence (not assumptions, innuendo, spin) fails to support it. There is ZERO evidence that Trump threatened to withhold any funding, and there is zero evidence he was doing this for his benefit. Assumptions are not evidence. The uttering ramblings of a partisan hack like Schiff are not evidence, nor are his hairbrained conclusions. Likewise the opinions of media blowhards is not evidence.

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Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof

You’re kinda missing the point....
You can look at any measure of US foreign aid as a bribe because we (whichever party is in the Executive branch) will give it and expect a return on the gift. The problem with the Biden situation is the personal gain to Biden’s son for his actions...no different than Clinton’s peddling of Uranium for personal gain...

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But now you're getting into whether the ends justify the means and an our system can't work like that, at least not for very long. The Biden case can be adjudicated on it's own merits; the fact remains that the president solicited favors, and not just any favors but things explicitly forbidden in exchange for releasing the aid. Call it bribery, extortion, whatever, but it's implicitly listed in Article II, section 4 of the U.S. Constitution. So unless we're willing to rip that up he has to be impeached.

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Originally Posted by kingcat

The mind of some is every bit as eager to pardon any and all behavior by the President as his enemies are to bring him down. But that’s what happens when you put all your Republican marbles in one mans bag.

He is secure no matter what he does with his base. They cannot go against him at this point. And never would no matter where he leads while president

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Just like people will vote for Biden or whoever no matter how much proof of corruption comes out of this mess.

But on this board you'll actually find few such people on the Right.

I don't actually care to defend Trump, but I do have real issues with hypocrisy, and no one in my lifetime has brought out more of it than Trump. The obsession with him to the point of being convinced he's a threat to the entire future of the nation has brought out more contortion and double standards and logical fallacies than I've ever seen in national politics, and that's saying a lot b/c both parties basically operate on a complete double standard as a matter of basic rhetoric.

Just judge Trump by the same yardstick held up for Obama or Clinton or Bush or whoever. That's all I ask.

The problem is when you do you see he has done nothing that is so far out of the norm that it warrants this kind of visceral hatred and fear. Sure he has his excesses, but so did every other President. And I assure you they had many more we never knew about. The CIA isn't exactly operating within the rules.

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Originally Posted by Catfan73

But now you're getting into whether the ends justify the means and an our system can't work like that, at least not for very long. The Biden case can be adjudicated on it's own merits; the fact remains that the president solicited favors, and not just any favors but things explicitly forbidden in exchange for releasing the aid. Call it bribery, extortion, whatever, but it's implicitly listed in Article II, section 4 of the U.S. Constitution. So unless we're willing to rip that up he has to be impeached.

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Not nearly so cut and dried.

1) He didn't "solicit favors". He asked about investigating someone he thought needed to be investigated, and as the chief law enforcement officer he did so.

The Obama administration investigated Trump and his people, and did so through foreign channels. Is that all illegal too simply b/c he was a political opponent?

2) There is absolutely no proof of any quid pro quo. Is it implied? Just about as implied as the quid pro quo that had hundreds of millions in foreign money flowing to the Clinton Foundation.

That would fall under Article II, Section 4 as well then right?


Under your interpretation, then applied fairly to all other past parties, Trump would be in jail next to the Clintons, the Bidens, Obama, probably both Bushs, etc.

So maybe it's not true that every sitting PResident and several candidates in the last 30 years need to be impeached and/or imprisoned. Maybe it's just your interpretation that is not in sync with how modern politics works.

And fwiw I'd be happy if we were that strict, but clearly we aren't.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121

400 million dollars in military aid being held up is pretty solid motivation to not only investigate but perhaps manufacture evidence against the Bidens.

Also to Hell with the Clintons. If Hillary won, I'd be railing against the foundation. She didn't and we got something even worse. The foundation was a sham and one of the things that made her unfit for office.

But the bar is so low based on his unfitness, there won't be another election if he wins. When he asks his supporters to chant 8 more years and how great China and Russia are for having presidents for life, liberty is at stake.

Good article on excuses

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...t-arent-great/

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121

400 million dollars in military aid being held up is pretty solid motivation to not only investigate but perhaps manufacture evidence against the Bidens.

Also to Hell with the Clintons. If Hillary won, I'd be railing against the foundation. She didn't and we got something even worse. The foundation was a sham and one of the things that made her unfit for office.

But the bar is so low based on his unfitness, there won't be another election if he wins. When he asks his supporters to chant 8 more years and how great China and Russia are for having presidents for life, liberty is at stake.

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Where is there any PROOF that any money was held up? Where is the PROOF that there was a threat to hold any money up? PLEASE show me exactly where the was done. Do so and I am on your side. But Adam Schiff saying it isn't proof. This is the guy who went to Russia to get naked pictures of Trump. His ethics are as lacking as his ability to speak the truth and foresee the future. Likewise MSNBC or CNN saying it is not proof. We have the transcript (or at least the official report, and it is a FULL report. Just because democrats claim it is doctored does not make it so) and NOWHERE in there does it mention foreign aid, withholding foreign aid, or the threat of withholding it. Trump said "Do me a favor". I use that phrase often, and its not to coerce or intimidate any action. It is a request to do something, usually WITHOUT any reward attached. In this case it was to look into the possible illegal activities of Biden, something he (Trump) is empowered to do and is obligated to do.

I’m curious about that as well. I’m also curious why either of the posters raising hell over this issue didn’t comment on the post from 2016 when Obama shipped $400 Million in cash to Iran on pallets.....in cash you know...to avoid the electronic trail of notice....

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Originally Posted by Doc

Where is there any PROOF that any money was held up? Where is the PROOF that there was a threat to hold any money up? PLEASE show me exactly where the was done. Do so and I am on your side. But Adam Schiff saying it isn't proof. This is the guy who went to Russia to get naked pictures of Trump. His ethics are as lacking as his ability to speak the truth and foresee the future. Likewise MSNBC or CNN saying it is not proof. We have the transcript (or at least the official report, and it is a FULL report. Just because democrats claim it is doctored does not make it so) and NOWHERE in there does it mention foreign aid, withholding foreign aid, or the threat of withholding it. Trump said "Do me a favor". I use that phrase often, and its not to coerce or intimidate any action. It is a request to do something, usually WITHOUT any reward attached. In this case it was to look into the possible illegal activities of Biden, something he (Trump) is empowered to do and is obligated to do.

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Addressed in a White House press briefing on January 19th, 2016.

One can argue that it was tied to the hostage release matter. But the secrecy thing and who's money it was not so much


Q Thank you very much. Appreciate it, Josh. On Sunday, we learned that the United States made a payment to the government of Iran of $1.7 billion. Was this tied to the deal that led to the freedom of the Americans that were being held in Iran?
MR. EARNEST: Jon, this is actually the result of a long-running claims process that had been at The Hague. In 1979, there was obviously an Iranian revolution that abruptly severed relations between our two countries. And prior to that revolution, the U.S. government had entered into an agreement with the then-Iranian government to transfer about $400 million in military equipment to the Iranian government. Once the revolution took place, obviously that equipment was not transferred, but we also didn’t return Iran’s money either. So that money essentially was held in what could, I think — essentially in an escrow account. And for more than 30 years now, the Iranians have been using this claims process at The Hague to try to recover that $400 million.
This resolution that we agreed to was to return the $400 million and also to pay about $1 billion in interest. Now, the reason that this ends up being a very good deal for taxpayers is that our exposure, when it came to paying interest, could have been much higher. The Iranians were actually seeking $7 billion to $8 billion in interest payments. And I think that’s an indication of how the interests of taxpayers were very well served by reaching this settlement.
Q Okay, but as I understand it, the Department of State announced this payment of $1.7 billion to the government of Iran just before the plane carrying the freed Americans landed in Geneva. You’re really telling me that this is an absolute coincidence that this payment just happened to coincide with the precise moment when the American prisoners were flying to freedom?
MR. EARNEST: Jon, I think we’ve made pretty clear that this is not a coincidence. The fact is, these kinds of diplomatic opportunities —
Q So it was — because Paul Ryan has suggested this was a ransom payment. You saw his statement.
MR. EARNEST: He’s wrong about that.

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Addressed in a White House press briefing on January 19th, 2016.

One can argue that it was tied to the hostage release matter. But the secrecy thing and who's money it was not so much


Q Thank you very much. Appreciate it, Josh. On Sunday, we learned that the United States made a payment to the government of Iran of $1.7 billion. Was this tied to the deal that led to the freedom of the Americans that were being held in Iran?
MR. EARNEST: Jon, this is actually the result of a long-running claims process that had been at The Hague. In 1979, there was obviously an Iranian revolution that abruptly severed relations between our two countries. And prior to that revolution, the U.S. government had entered into an agreement with the then-Iranian government to transfer about $400 million in military equipment to the Iranian government. Once the revolution took place, obviously that equipment was not transferred, but we also didn’t return Iran’s money either. So that money essentially was held in what could, I think — essentially in an escrow account. And for more than 30 years now, the Iranians have been using this claims process at The Hague to try to recover that $400 million.
This resolution that we agreed to was to return the $400 million and also to pay about $1 billion in interest. Now, the reason that this ends up being a very good deal for taxpayers is that our exposure, when it came to paying interest, could have been much higher. The Iranians were actually seeking $7 billion to $8 billion in interest payments. And I think that’s an indication of how the interests of taxpayers were very well served by reaching this settlement.
Q Okay, but as I understand it, the Department of State announced this payment of $1.7 billion to the government of Iran just before the plane carrying the freed Americans landed in Geneva. You’re really telling me that this is an absolute coincidence that this payment just happened to coincide with the precise moment when the American prisoners were flying to freedom?
MR. EARNEST: Jon, I think we’ve made pretty clear that this is not a coincidence. The fact is, these kinds of diplomatic opportunities —
Q So it was — because Paul Ryan has suggested this was a ransom payment. You saw his statement.
MR. EARNEST: He’s wrong about that.

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But none of that stuff is relevant to this discussion.

If you followed the story, it’s not a secret it was their money. Doing in the dark was a completely different issue however.

As for the type of payment..

The fact that the money was physically sent to Iran in various currencies rather than simply transferred by wire was done in order to avoid the existing Treasury Department sanctions that banned the use of American currency in transactions with Iran, and international sanctions which at that time kept Iran from accessing the global financial markets and which were lifted in January 2016.

Plus,not so dark other than it was actually dark in Iran. Yet, it was literally daylight here in the States where the order came from, and as it occurred in January, 2016, it was also publicly addressed in January 2016 several different times including the White house briefing above. And was also part of a long ongoing transaction discussion which was not secretive. I agree it was likely entangled with the hostage release, but the rest of it is political spin.

But still if I were to concede to make a point, it in no way absolves the current president from any potential wrongdoing.
It serves only as a diversion and or deflection. Yet, understandably so.


I dont really understand the point and anger towards posters here. Must those who disagree with the forum regulars continually be chastised and made to feel unwelcome?

Who is raising hell?

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Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof

I’m curious about that as well. I’m also curious why either of the posters raising hell over this issue didn’t comment on the post from 2016 when Obama shipped $400 Million in cash to Iran on pallets.....in cash you know...to avoid the electronic trail of notice....

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Let’s see In 2014 My family was going through hell and I was hanging on by a thread with only UK basketball to keep me going.

I love people who make those **** ass “where
Were you...” bullshit comments. As is my patriotism is questioned because I have not opined on every issue.

Obama was a weak president. A Carolina fan and an inexperienced guy who made one good speech. In fact had Jerri Ryan of Star Trek been open to having sex with her husband in public, ole Barry is in Chicago.

Trump is another level of bad news. Obama questioned the wisdom American hegemony and trumps view would end NATO and promote a destabilized world where we would stand alone.

A short sighted ignorant autocrat who wipes his orange ass with the Constitution.

I will work hard on my own time to end his presidency by all legal means. So help me God

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121

400 million dollars in military aid being held up is pretty solid motivation to not only investigate but perhaps manufacture evidence against the Bidens.

Also to Hell with the Clintons. If Hillary won, I'd be railing against the foundation. She didn't and we got something even worse. The foundation was a sham and one of the things that made her unfit for office.

But the bar is so low based on his unfitness, there won't be another election if he wins. When he asks his supporters to chant 8 more years and how great China and Russia are for having presidents for life, liberty is at stake.

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And a billion dollars being held up is a lot of motive to NOT investigate the Bidens too. lol.

I know you believe Trump is such a huge threat, and I'm sorry b/c it must be hard to sleep at night. I'm being sincere, I know it has to be upsetting, but rest assured Trump is no threat to America or liberty or democracy.

Liberty is at stake but it never was with Trump. Trump isn't the one proposing limits on free speech. He's not the one controlling the social media networks that are the modern version of freedom of assembly and expression.

As for "got something even worse", what has he done that's worse than taking hundreds of millions in foreign money to expand your own power? What has he done in 3 years that is worse than the rampant graft of the Clintons?

You're worried (and convinced) Trump is a Putin agent b/c of things like him trying to develop real estate there prior to even running for President. But Biden's son taking millions from the Chinese and Russian backed Ukranians with no qualifications other than being Biden's son isn't a threat?

As Administrations go it appears this one is FAR less influenced by the corruption of foreign powers than the Obama administration. Biden's son was raking in huge sums, and so were other Biden associates, and the Clintons were raking in even more vast sums, all of it b/c of their influence in the government.

So our level of foreign influence has DECLINED under Trump and yet he's the one you think is selling us out?

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Originally Posted by UKHistory

Let’s see In 2014 My family was going through hell and I was hanging on by a thread with only UK basketball to keep me going.

I love people who make those **** ass “where
Were you...” bullshit comments. As is my patriotism is questioned because I have not opined on every issue.

Obama was a weak president. A Carolina fan and an inexperienced guy who made one good speech. In fact had Jerri Ryan of Star Trek been open to having sex with her husband in public, ole Barry is in Chicago.

Trump is another level of bad news. Obama questioned the wisdom American hegemony and trumps view would end NATO and promote a destabilized world where we would stand alone.

A short sighted ignorant autocrat who wipes his orange ass with the Constitution.

I will work hard on my own time to end his presidency by all legal means. So help me God

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The point is to illustrate the double standard, not question your patriotism. I am proud that I criticized the obstructionists in the GOP and birthers for thier acts and behavior during Obamas years. Fight for your beliefs, not just to obstruct. Fortunately the current group of democrats make that pig head behavior look mild so I thank them.

IMO Trump should look into that shipment but if he did the appearance would be terrible...and he would likely be accused of some crap that would warrant impeachment. Personally I oppose the investigation of previous admins. Said that when Obam wanted to go after waterboarders, but Bidens acts are clear letter law and doing exactly what the left is trying to impeach Trump.for allegedly doing, as is the midnight deposit

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

And a billion dollars being held up is a lot of motive to NOT investigate the Bidens too. lol.

I know you believe Trump is such a huge threat, and I'm sorry b/c it must be hard to sleep at night. I'm being sincere, I know it has to be upsetting, but rest assured Trump is no threat to America or liberty or democracy.

Liberty is at stake but it never was with Trump. Trump isn't the one proposing limits on free speech. He's not the one controlling the social media networks that are the modern version of freedom of assembly and expression.

As for "got something even worse", what has he done that's worse than taking hundreds of millions in foreign money to expand your own power? What has he done in 3 years that is worse than the rampant graft of the Clintons?

You're worried (and convinced) Trump is a Putin agent b/c of things like him trying to develop real estate there prior to even running for President. But Biden's son taking millions from the Chinese and Russian backed Ukranians with no qualifications other than being Biden's son isn't a threat?

As Administrations go it appears this one is FAR less influenced by the corruption of foreign powers than the Obama administration. Biden's son was raking in huge sums, and so were other Biden associates, and the Clintons were raking in even more vast sums, all of it b/c of their influence in the government.

So our level of foreign influence has DECLINED under Trump and yet he's the one you think is selling us out?

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Many on the right believe Obama was going to turn 'Merica into a communist nation. Many believed him to be the devil incarnate. Many openly feared he would declare marshal law and ix the elections, and declare himself king/autocrat/ supreme ruler. But it did not happen. It is why we have elections every 4 years. Its also why coups are not common in the USA. Yet the left is attempting that same thing.

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Any chance we can move some of these posts to their own thread on the Impeachment and just leave the ones about the OP?
Don't get me wrong, the impeachment leaves much to be talked about but its a bit off topic and leads straight down a rabbit hole.

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I don't know. I may try. I get your thread was hijacked.

OK...

Trump vs Warren. Trump wins as the nation comes full grasp that she is a socialist, and basically the antithesis of what this nation is found on.

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

I don't know. I may try. I get your thread was hijacked.

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That part I don't care about. I've done enough hijacking before ha. Just wanted it to be easier to come back and look at the predictions later.
The impeachment discussion is more important. I get it. And its pressing. Just thought the prediction thing would be fun.

I think that is how it falls too. The impeachment train and Trump’s declassifying of that phone call transcript will throw Biden under the bus in the primary.

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Originally Posted by Doc

OK...

Trump vs Warren. Trump wins as the nation comes full grasp that she is a socialist, and basically the antithesis of what this nation is found on.

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A huge bump for Biden, as the president eventually tries to lay blame on his personal lawyer Giuliani. A White House increasing in chaos while the military veteran finds honor and integrity still matters to most Americans. Biden>Trump in 2020

And Republicans start to ask themselves,
just who the face of our party?
And for a generation the answer will always be Donald Trump.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartanntp

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

That part I don't care about. I've done enough hijacking before ha. Just wanted it to be easier to come back and look at the predictions later.
The impeachment discussion is more important. I get it. And its pressing. Just thought the prediction thing would be fun.

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More topical, but in the end a rabbit hole just as you said. And honestly it won't matter next November. People who think Trump is sent here to destroy America will still think it either way, those who think he's great will still think that, and those like me who think he's an ass but our best choice given the other option is socialism (versus rampant corruption as the option in 2016) will still hold our nose and deal with it.

The only thing the impeachment process will do really is destroy Biden and secure the nomination for Warren. There's no way it won't hurt him to have him come up constantly in a negative light and it will be from both sides of the aisle in effect.

The only real question is if Trump can do anything to make himself more palatable (he could but I doubt he can control himself) and if Warren being a far left candidate with serious ethical questions will be enough to get Trump the key battleground states.

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Originally Posted by kingcat

A huge bump for Biden, as the president eventually tries to lay blame on his personal lawyer Giuliani. A White House increasing in chaos while the military veteran finds honor and integrity still matters to most Americans. Biden>Trump in 2020

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartanntp

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Given what we know about Biden I'd say they're going to be looking hard and long to find any honor or integrity in his candidacy.

They won't find any with Trump either mind you, or Fauxahontas. If you're looking for honor and integrity in this race you'll be sorely disappointed, lol.

But politics isn't about honor and integrity. It's about power and wealth.

But what if Biden is innocent, as Lutsenko stated today?

Just the opposite would happen.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartanntp

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Given what we know about Biden I'd say they're going to be looking hard and long to find any honor or integrity in his candidacy.

They won't find any with Trump either mind you, or Fauxahontas. If you're looking for honor and integrity in this race you'll be sorely disappointed, lol.

But politics isn't about honor and integrity. It's about power and wealth.

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Not to me.

The man has nothing to prove and has served his country his whole life.. absent bunions or the like. He is respected, and I venture to say loved across the political landscape, and deep partisan divides.

So the odds are set against your hypothesis, imo..

Biden-O'Rourke 2020

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Originally Posted by kingcat

Not to me.

The man has nothing to prove and has served his country his whole life.. absent bunions or the like. He is respected, and I venture to say loved across the political landscape, and deep partisan divides.

So the odds are set against your hypothesis, imo..

Biden-O'Rourke 2020

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His son, with no qualifications whatsoever, has taken in millions of dollars from foreign powers (mostly Chinese and Russian), often flying with his father on Air Force Two for those meetings, and yet Biden has integrity?

Please.

I've read his Senate hearings from the 80s. he was just as much of a buffoon then as now, and given this new news he's also a corrupt buffoon, or at least allows his family to be corrupt on his knowing coattails.

If Eric Trump were in China and the Ukraine cutting deals worth millions upon millions, flying in on Air Force One, and getting paid for jobs for which he has no qualifications, you'd be pointing to it as conclusive proof of Trump's corruption.

As much as I respect Puma it won't be our lack of civil discourse that ends our nation. It will be our limitless willingness to accept hypocrisy.

Oh, and I hope Biden does win the nomination, and I pray any Dem nominee picks Beto as the VP candidate. PLEASE pick Beto. Boy I'd take that deal in a heartbeat.

I wager you a pack of spearmint Chiclets, as was stated today, he did nothing illegal. ;)

I saw the the Beto thing and thought it was funny. I knew it would get a rise.

It will certainly be a woman..
Michelle perhaps?

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Originally Posted by kingcat

I wager you a pack of spearmint Chiclets, as was stated today, he did nothing illegal. ;)

I saw the the Beto thing and thought was funny. I knew it would get a rise.

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You're moving the goalposts. The "not illegal" thing is a Clinton defense. You started talking about honor and integrity. You can do a lot of things that are still legal but hardly ethical.

I imagine what Biden did was technically legal, just as Trump broke no laws either. But his son getting rich at jobs for which he has no qualifications, paid by people who very much need influence with the US administration? I think I can figure it out, and while not illegal it's certainly corrupt.

Re Beto I figured that was a bit of a jest, but boy I hope he somehow lands on the ticket. He won't of course, none of the potential winners are so foolish. Beto burned his political career to the ground faster than I've seen someone do it. Jeb Bush's burned but not so much from his actions but just from being another Bush. Beto burned it in a bid for attention, like a giant bonfire.

I was talking about Joe's son not him. I believe everything said in the article I posted is exactly the situation, and this is no more than an attempt by our president to manufacture an appearance of malfeasance by both. And that HE tried to blackmail Ukraine to trump up some charge against the younger Biden.
And by doing so, intentionally broke the the laws of this nation.

I think the evidence is clear, but we will see if it can be sidestepped by executive authority and the help of his congressional puppets.
One thing is certain, this is no good news for Mr Trump. (Nor we as Americans)

Imo, it can't be spun as such this time. He screwed up royally. The cover up just didn't work here.

But I do agree much more info will come out.
Anyway, a long way to go with this situation, and I don't envy the work that must be done to mount a defense of the indefensible and excuses for the inexcusable.

It's not an attempt by Trump to manufacture a negative spin on Biden. It came up before Trump was the nominee, and multiple sources have reported that it was troubling to Biden's staff etc. even when it was happening.

Step back from the bias and look at the big picture. The son of a VP who has no experience or ties to an industry in a foreign nation ends up with a cushy high dollar job that pays huge money for no real work.

That's how these politically tied Directorships work, even in the US. Lots of boards of big companies have politically well connected members, for the purpose of having those relationships and ties. Why is this any different?

the problem is those ties with a sitting VP stink of corruption. It's influence buying, and it's rampant in Washington.

This is no different than a Duke recruit's family suddenly getting really good job offers from North Carolina companies, just out of the blue. We all know what is going on, but it's technically not a violation.

Same thing here.

And go look at Biden's work in China, putting together an investment group in meetings where he flew over with his father on Air Force Two.

You can't tell me that if this were Trump's kids you wouldn't be losing your mind, and that's the double standard and hypocrisy that is dooming any kind of real discussion. Hold both to the same standards.

You guys don’t get it. It’s about the Constitution and that’s why the Republicans in the Senate will eventually turn on Trump and force him to resign before it ever gets to a vote. I need to change my prediction on the election too since Trump is apparently intent on taking Pence down with him. President Pelosi decides not to run. The prediction:

Warren defeats Sasse. 9.27.19

Since we are fully down the rabbit hole...my thoughts:

This thread, to me, is indicative of the problem. One side does something....so the other does...and both justify their actions by the other side's reaction. And it goes back so far that certainly no one will prove who started it. But you can guarantee both sides will say the other did.

I turned on Fox News for 30 minutes yesterday. The ENTIRE 30 minutes (Hannity) was on Biden and his son. Literally, not one mention of impeachment, Trump's call, Maguire, etc. I have no doubt if I turned on MSNBC they wouldn't mention Biden.

And my point: One does not justify the other.

Chuck, to your point...If Biden is guilty, then he is guilty. Bottom line. He shouldn't be President and should resign. Is he? Don't know. But I am all for an investigation to see if anything was illegal or otherwise "impeachable" (he is running for President so I think it applies).
But whether he is guilty or not doesn't negate any guilt by Trump, Rudy, etc. If Trump is guilty than he is guilty. And he shouldn't be President. Is he? Don't know. But I am all for an investigation to see if anything was illegal or otherwise "impeachable".

The issue of course is that both sides are so terribly blinded (and this includes voters) by party bias that they can't see one or the other. One watches (or believes) the media which they already agree with.
Except for Fox News where Shep Smith had on their own legal analyst and he said what Trump did was illegal. And then Tucker had his own on and he called Fox News legal analyst a "fool". And now there is infighting at Fox News over it all. Its just all so silly.

How about instead of one guilty party justifying another we just have both be guilty and resign? I am all for it. But that of course will not happen because Dem's don't really care if Biden did it (but would lose their minds if it were Trump) and Reps don't really care if Trump did it (but would lose their minds if it were Biden/Obama). And so nothing happens. And nothing gets done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN

Hold both to the same standards.

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Will do.
If Biden is guilty (and it seems he may be)...he should resign from running.
If Trump is guilty (and it seems he may be)...he should resign from the Presidency.

All solved.

P.s. My offer (which is weightless) still stands. Have Trump step down and I will personally put a different Republican in office for the next 4 years as long as they are reasonable and respectful.
I can provide a list (ha):
Sasse
Romney
Kasich (who would be my personal choice)

Fwiw...

Fox News' Chris Wallace: "the spinning that's been done by the president's defenders over the last 24 hours since this very damaging whistleblower complaint came out ... [is] not surprising but it is astonishing and I think deeply misleading."

Quote:

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Have Trump step down and I will personally put a different Republican in office for the next 4 years

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You can really do that? Are you really Russian and can stuff the ballot boxes in all the right states to make that happen?
:sFl_america2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dan_bgblue

You can really do that? Are you really Russian and can stuff the ballot boxes in all the right states to make that happen?
:sFl_america2:

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Haha. As I said..."weightless offer". But if I COULD. Btw, I wouldn't be the only one to make that deal. If that were an actual vote, it would probably win the Dem primary.

I think you can pitch media opinions out the window...from either side. I’ve read opinions from constitutional lawyers who are split along the same lines they were during the Russiagate fiasco. I trust their opinions a bit more than talking head media types (even if they have law degrees)
Pelosi needs to put this to a vote on the house floor IMO and let the chips fall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ukpumacat

Fwiw...

Fox News' Chris Wallace: "the spinning that's been done by the president's defenders over the last 24 hours since this very damaging whistleblower complaint came out ... [is] not surprising but it is astonishing and I think deeply misleading."

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