https://www.lawfareblog.com/terrible...-investigation
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http://time.com/time-person-of-the-y...ler-runner-up/
"For all the focus on Trump and his inner circle, the Russia investigation is about something bigger than the conduct or outcome of the presidential campaign. The U.S. intelligence community concluded, and still believes, that the primary goal of the Russian operation was to undermine faith in American democracy at home and abroad. Mueller is America’s answer to that challenge, the personification of the idea that rule of law remains paramount—even, or especially, when it touches our core democratic processes and our most powerful government officials"
I believe this and only his dispensing of facts and any conclusion or decisions the courts and or Congress makes matter.
I do not live in a country governed by a party, a man, or innuendo and fake news.
But by the rule of law.
This is too important of a matter to sweep under the rug.. It is an investigation of an attack on the United States of America.
An act of war as real as any in our history.
And I know where my allegiance lies.
And despite what many think, I do not want innocent people hurt. And I am certain no one investigating does either.
But there have been now, eleven confirmed contacts with our enemy by those in the president's campaign relative to helping Donald Trump.
Mueller needs to clear that up for me. And I would think everyone should want to know for certain.
Because no matter the argument at this point, you do not. (Not you personally Keith, but everyone)
Fixed it for ya..Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsky
But we know that freedom cannot be served by the devices of the tyrant. As it is an ancient truth that freedom cannot be legislated into existence, so it is no less obvious that freedom cannot be censored into existence. And any who act as if freedoms defenses are to be found in suppression and suspicion and fear confess a doctrine that is alien to America.
And relative to the severity of any foreign attack on our voting system
Our American heritage is threatened as much by our own indifference as it is by the most unscrupulous office or by the most powerful foreign threat. The future of this republic is in the hands of the American voter.
..Dwight D. Eisenhower
The rule of law does more than ensure freedom from high-handed action by rulers. It ensures justice between man and man however humble the one and however powerful the other. A man with five dollars in the bank can call to account the corporation with five billion dollars in assets-and the two will be heard as equals before the law
..Dwight D. Eisenhower.
11 confirmed contacts? OMG, run for the hills! lol
Don't you see that in modern Washington that's not even unusual? it's low by DNC/Clinton standards, who have had 100s of contacts and payments and everything else. while Hillary was SoS Bill wasn't just being in contact, he was in Moscow giving speeches for $500K. We have a memo from one of his chief runners talking about how he's gotten foreign powers to give MILLIONS to the Clintons in perks and speaking fees. And that's just the Clintons.
Context is what you are missing. Did Russia conspire to influence American politics and policy? yes. Do you think, seriously, this was the first election they did so? Do you think they only reached out to this outsider Trump and all those contacts with Hillary's people, like her campaign manager's brother, are all just innocent lunch dates?
if not, then why aren't the others being investigated? Why isn't Uranium One in his list of things to investigate, when we have a sequestered FBI witness saying the Russians were bragging about influencing Clinton at Sec to state?
If you want an investigation into Russia's impact on the US, and you really believe it's that serious of a threat, you should be more outraged than anyone on here about the conduct of the investigation to date. the fact that you aren't says you are only interested in investigating Trump b/c you have come into this with the assumptive belief that he is the one colluding with them and only him.
That's clearly not been the case, the power brokers in washington have clearly long been colluding with LOTS of foreign powers for a long time, but you only seem to care about this narrow band of investigation.
This is just creating sacrificial lambs to give the impression we have addressed this threat. That's what politicians do best, and you're swallowing their sales pitch. The truth is both parties are up to their armpits in questioanble contacts with all kinds of foreign powers, but if they hand everyone this outsider Trump then no one bothers to look under their skirts.
You'll see that as changing the subject, but again that's just being myopic. The truth is Washington was corrupt on this front long before Trump ever ran for office. You want to push back on Russian meddling? Great. Then get behind a REAL investigation and not this straw job.
I've said all I can say. Before there are any results you have ruled it a straw job.
And so one can only conclude you do not care what the facts may eventually prove to be.
Only that you disagree with who is looking for them.
Personally I dont have to be right....only convinced. Much like the majority in Congress and of the American people, and the world.
Mr Mueller will help accomplish that. And if it requires further investigation doesn't matter..
And so it should be to an eventual mutual satisfaction.
But those danged alternate facts may prevent it for some.
:trink39:
Anyway, thanks to the forum for letting me speak up. Ive felt comfortable doing so.
The guy uses this to prove the Mueller appointment is lawful:Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
Let us assume that is correct usage of the code. Since Mueller has not been appointed by any local district court he was limited to 120 days, which has long since lapsed.Quote:
Title 28 U.S.C. § 546 provides that, until the Senate confirms a presidential nominee, U.S. attorney vacancies can be filled for up to 120 days by an appointment made by the attorney general and then indefinitely by local district courts
The problem is that the last thing being looked for here is that the undermining of our confidence in elections is not being examined in lieu of a witch hunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
Dershowitz is correct that we needed no special counsel, and just needed a special Congressional committee to examine what could be done to prevent interference in future elections.
To date the only collusion found is that between Russian operative, Steele and the Hillary campaign to produce the dossier.
We have no clue yet as to what Mueller might have. Therein lies the rub on the far right and the fear of testimony.
The I don't want to know attitude is very disheartening.
If Mueller had anything he would hand down meaningful indictments.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
Then there is no cause for concern. It will be exposed as a farce and everyone will go home happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
I'll be happy myself knowing democracy endures and the republic is safe.
And id like to point out the majority of meaningful opinions is not only that of the far right. About three out of ten who consider themselves conservatives agree with me.
Because of that, my friends here discard them as as "not really republicans" That is a shame imho.
And it's the reason some of our good friends here who ARE Republican no longer frequent this forum.
Anyway Im on an island here. So I'll back out.
I agree with that. The longer it drags out the less credibility he has, just as with Ken Starr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
That "witch hunt" lasted several years
That witch hunt should not have exceeded the boundaries of its original task, and neither should this one. The problem with these prosecutors is that they are determined to find something to justify the huge expense.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
George Washington..he did in fact chop down the cherry treeQuote:
Originally Posted by bigsky
So you think Trump should fire Mueller? Please, a democrats wet dream. They tried to crucify Trump for firing Comey, a guy the left wanted fired months previously, an incompetent nob who was leaking more infomation to the press than he was keeping private. The left would claim firing Meuller was collusion and a cover up because he found something.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
and yet it seems Mueller et al have ignored the Russian Democrat connection. This started with a dossier created by a Russian operative and given to the CLINTON campaign who used it.That in and of itself shows more "Russian involvement" than anything they have come up with on Trump. I'm like you. I don't want Russia or anybody influencing our election (including noncitizens/illegals who vote) but Russia ain't our friend. They are our enemies despite what Obama and Clinton thought, and as our enemies they will try such tactics. The USA is no different, we just do it to our allies like Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
I care what the facts are, I am just willing to consider ALL the facts, not just cherry pick them to suit a pre-biased belief system or assumptions made based on appearance or the claims of those with a clear vested interest.
See, I believe ALL these guys are corrupt, and I have mountains of evidence to prove it going back decades of observation. So do I think people around Trump were happy to use their access to get brown nosed by lots of people, foreigners included? Sure I do. But I also see that those around every major political player are doing the same thing and have for a very long time, and I won't shoot one guy for jaywalking while others are still doing it.
I think I believe, in the end, in justice more than you, b/c I don't want selective justice but equality before the law. Justice unevenly applied is not justice, it's vendetta. When Mueller starts asking Podesta about his brother, and starts asking FBI agents why they were trying to get their kids jobs with the Clinton campaign at the same time they were investigating the email server, then I'll feel like the "facts" will come out.
Until then I know what we'll see is a very selective cherry picking of "facts". Some of them may be true, but in absence of context they lose perspective. That's how this stuff gets sold, by saying "see here's the proof" without looking at the overall picture.
So far nothing that has come out rises to the level of a crime, and in fact if Trump had met with Putin directly to orchestrate their involvement it's not even a crime, so no I don't see much coming of this that is "fact". I see the swamp pushing back as hard as they can against having their little fiefdoms upset, from the DOJ to FBI to the GOP leadership.
thats because James Comey doesnt work for him to leak it to the pressQuote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
Yes, there is cause for concern. That is the point you are missing. The investigation isnt focing on Russian Influencing the election. If it were it would be going after the DNC as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
Its funny that now suddenly Russia is a huge threat, when Romney and the GOP were saying it while Hillary was pushing the "reset button" and no one said a thing about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
Yes they are our enemy. DUH. No one is debating that any more, only the Obama/Clinton camps ever wanted to be their buddies.
But if one really thinks Russia is such a huge threat to the American way of life then fine, why the Hades aren't we investigating Uranium One and Podesta and the dossier sources and the spending the Russian bots did for Sanders, etc.?
The only way to not be a total hypocrite on the Russian threat is to call for an independent counsel to investigate ALL of these things, yet Mueller is only targeting Trump. And his staff has about 90% hard core Clinton campaign donors on it. Gee, wonder what's going on there.....
Ironic how the Left has gone so totally Joe McCarthy on this one isn't it? with these modern Communists behind every door and need to be ferreted out? Yet just like McCarthy they aren't doing a broad investigation but just targeting their political enemies. Yeah, that's intellectually honest. Sure. And McCarthy was a great patriot too I suppose.
Let me know if you can get this basic fact accepted. I've tried for many pages, no traction so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
At this point the investigation is focusing on anything it can to "get Trump". That's why Uranium One, with a FBI witness testifying Russians influenced the government,isn't even on the Mueller letter of engagement, and yet he's going after Manafort for totally unrelated things from 2003.
Anyone can see what's going on. If this were for real BOTH sides would be under the microscope and Huma Abedin with her foreign "pay for play" emails would be sitting right next to Manafort.
Hell. we have hard texts from senior FBI people talking about this very "insurance policy" type of action. I think if these hacks stood up with their arms around De Niro and said "F Trump" people would still act like this was all some totally legit, honest deal. In fact I'd bet my house on it. Nothing short of "I ..... being of sound mind and uncoerced do hereby admit I engaged in activities to hurt the Trump campaign and Presidency", and even then 30% of the Left would still think it was OK.
He was FBI director at the time this occurred with Manafort. I’m sure he was aware and knew he’d be an easy target.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
We should all feel great about Mueller. He's got such "bi partisan support". You know, from people who have gotten rich spending 30-40 years in Washington while almost nothing got done. Those people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catonahottinroof
Meanwhile, he hired Strozk, hired a guy who was also a political climber from Sothern District new York who has been found guilty MULTIPLE times for various levels of prosecutorial misconduct, and Dershowitz himself suspects he was involved in keeping an innocent man in jail to avoid having it shown they messed up.
here's a really good article on Mueller while at FBI, and why it is that no one seems to want to question him, and if you do you are somehow undermining the rule of law:
http://thefederalist.com/2018/04/19/...al-discretion/
For those who don't click, it lays out people who were totally innocent whose lives were ruined due to the FBI's tactics, including at least one suicide over it. Totally innocent, but the FBI went after him as the anthrax mailer with questionable science, ruined his life.
Sound familiar to what we're seeing now?
here's a nice quick view of his lead prosecutor, Andrew Weissman, and how he's managed to get entire unanimous decisions overturning his actions:
http://thehill.com/opinion/white-hou...-interested-in
here's a story on his withholding of exculpatory evidence in a civil rights case:
https://saraacarter.com/muellers-pit...previous-case/
that article is talking with a former ACLU lawyer who had the issue with him.
I've already linked the Dershowitz article somewhere. there are a BUNCH more.
Almost all of his team are not just Democrats but Democratic DONORS (most people don't actually write campaign checks, but in Washington the connected ones sure do), and there is a long long list of them focusing more on getting someone than on getting justice. They've ruined numerous innocent lives in the process, in many cases knowing they are innocent, and don't even apologize.
Yeah of course they have bi-partisan support. The Democrats all supported Comey until he did something they didnt' like, and then the GOP did. Right now Mueller is out there to "get Trump", and the elites and leadership in Washington elites certainly agree they want that done, so yeah they all support him.
But that doesn't go to his credibility. It just goes to his political position within Washington. If you want to look at his credibility you have to read these articles and interviews with the attorneys and people who have actually had dealings with these guys.
That's a much less rosy tale.
Three of the five FBI agents who were evidenced to have shown anti-Trump bias in the recent IG report worked on the Mueller investigation. This should trouble all Americans, regardless of political views.
And all evidence of their bias was hidden from Congressional oversight, including the "smoking gun" "we won't let him" text.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
that alone should be starting five alarm fires. it's blatant, beyond dispute the FBI/DOJ redacted information from legal Congressional oversight NOT to protect "national security" or "sources and methods", but to hide the vehemently anti-Trump views of key people in both investigations.
That's not their decision to make, whether you think the texts prove anything or not. The very fact they made that call is a violation of the law and an abrogation of their role as public servants answerable, through elected representatives, to The People.
They have withheld embarrassing and potentially damning evidence to protect themselves and their image. That's illegal, it's a crime, and it's a clear indication they cannot be trusted.
Seriously, what do they have to be caught doing before people decide you can't trust the FBI in this situation? They're clearly covering their butts here, it's beyond any kind of dispute. They were caught red handed.
Heck, they even redacted a comment about a $70,000 table b/c they knew it would be embarrassing. if they are willing to violate US code to hide something so small an ephemeral, what is the big stuff they are willing to hide?
It does not trouble those who cant accept they lost an election, a god given election that they were destine to win and only something nefarious could have altered that outcomeQuote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
I've been extremely disappointed in Jeff Sessions as the AG.Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_bgblue
Honestly this move by him should be Trump's excuse to fire his butt. he's horrid, on many levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
There's all the FBI/DOJ stuff, where he's absolutely doing nothing to drain the swamp, but then there's his decision to go back to war on pot, implementation of the zero tolerance policy at the border, and IMO most glaringly his hard-on man love for "civil forfeiture", or the forced confiscation of money and assets by law enforcement from people who have not even been charged with a crime. You know, totalitarianism.
He' stunningly bad, and not just b/c of the Russia stuff or any of the political stuff. His priorities are whacked, and IMO anyone who thinks civil forfeiture is even legal should be removed from office on basic principle.
The problem with removing Sessions at this time is that the Dems will obstruct and delay the confirmation of a successor, which leaves Rosenstein as the de facto AG. As bad as Sessions has been I think Rosenstein would be worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenBBN