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As one with Libertarian leanings I am not for the restricting of rights of others as a general rule. The problem with the DHS lists is that it is too easy for government Abuse to occur. Obama considers all right wing conservatives to be extremists. I could easily see him abusing a law that would disqualify those that appear on any kind of list from gun ownership.
BTW, watching the news last night one of the idiot Dems (Congressman from Florida?) made an absurd comment that Mateen used an automatic weapon that fired 700 rounds in a minute. That rate of fire with 34 mag swaps, if using 20 round mags, isn't possible.
Another idiot said that the semiautomatic AR-15 is easily convertible to full auto, you just have to google to get easy instructions. The M-16 isn't full auto to begin with, and the internals aren't all that similar.
Idiots confuse the masses who are ignorant and deceive them.
Like I said I'd want the list to be nothing more than a list of people adjudicated as a threat, not put there by bureaucrats. I'm not keen on it even then, but I'm not sure what else we do.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
Do we expand the laws to basically bring back the terrorist version of sedition as a crime? The problem is these people aren't guilty of anything till they go out and kill a bunch of people. That's true of any criminal though, and then we're back to just living with these attacks.
I'm completely open to suggestions, b/c I don't really like any of mine.
This is a very different scenario, that what it appeared you were originally proposing. I would be perfectly fine with your scenario if 1) there is judicial oversight 2) people can check to see if they are on the list and 3) they have means to be removed from the list if errors occur like same name, wrong target etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
Thankfully, there is getting to be a judicial backlash against this practice, as many are now adopting "keep away or no contact orders" instead of restraining orders. They are less serious and have less negative effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
It is the screwups which are the important cases. Otherwise, everything the government does is amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
This is the same fear I have, without some sort of oversight, it becomes VERY easy to label people terrorists just because you don't like what they say. We already see the police, FBI and current administrations using the terrorist designator for people that they don't like. Terrorism has ALREADY been used to strip away large swaths of essential liberties. Each step takes us further and further along that path.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
I didn't see or hear but idiot congressman would be Bill Nelson.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
It has emerged that the shooter was a regular at the club, meeting guys, getting drunk and using gay dating apps like Grindr. He also claimed allegiance to Hezbollah, Al Qaeda and ISIS. Not realizing that those three are more or less mortal enemies of each other. He also was not really a practicing Muslim according to his friends. He didn't pray 5 times a day, ate pork, drank alcohol, etc.
The picture that emerges is beginning to look like a gay man in denial (you know the stereotype, some of the biggest homophobes are actually gay men in denial), combined with a psychopath, attempting to attach himself to one of these groups, not because he believes in the cause, but because he wants his move to be part of something greater and/or he believes that these movements give a degree of validity to the psychopathy he feels. So it isn't so much he self radicalized as much as it is, he found an outlet for the psychopathic tendencies and self-hatred that he felt. They justified his internal feelings and gave him delusions of greatness so he attached himself to them.
Basically, he was a gay man in denial and a psychopath. He attached himself to these groups not out of a misguided sense of devotion to Islam, but because they confirmed his own internal self-hatred and psychopathy. They validated his feelings, which is why he attached himself to ALL of them.
Not that it makes this tragedy any better, but it is certainly painting a much more complex picture.
Saw this quote that kinda sums things up:
Clayton Bigsby of course being the Dave Chapelle character of the black white supremacist.Quote:
He was like Clayton Bigsby on steroids. A heterosexually-married gay muslim democrat who was also a racist, homophobic, wife-beating, legal gun owner who dreamed of being in the NYPD/Hezbollah/Al Qaeda and ISIS. You can't make this **** up.
Idiot Senator. Same-same. And an Obama accolyte, in addition to being a Democrat obstructionist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
All terrorism is due to the hate of a group of people for some reason or other. It wasn't society that committed the terrible acts in Orlando, is was a specific individual supporting groups known for such acts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krank
He was one of the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
The layers to this massacre are unreal. If the situation was not tragic I could laugh at the Clayton remark.Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroDaGr8
In FL, we have our fair share. We got Alan Grayson (no relationship to Grayson Allen--who is also from FL) who is famous for saying the Republican health plan was "don't get sick," and "if you do get sick, die quickly." And of course there is the queen political progressive hack Debbie Wasserman Schultz who ironically has the initials DWS and shares the last name of the famous Sargent Schultz, best known forQuote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
http://www.statefansnation.com/wp-co...10/10/Sgt1.jpg
He was probably a conflicted gay man. He was also an ISIS sympathizer and wanted to carry out killings in their name. I know we all probably realize it, but the 2 aren't mutually exclusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroDaGr8
He had also cased out other potential shooting spots, such as Disney Springs (f/k/a Downtown Disney) and Disney parks, in the past couple of months. IMHO he chose the Pulse not because of his conflicted feelings, but because it was a softer target than Disney Springs (where, among other factors, he couldn't be sure there wouldn't be someone carrying concealed) or one of the Disney Parks (where security checks bags and now has metal detectors).
Doc, I am hearing grumblings of Alan Grayson running for Marco Rubio's Senate seat. Him winning that seat just cannot happen. Of course, all of his idiot followers in the near Orlando area will vote for him because they're as stupid as he is.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us...T.nav=top-news
The layers to this story continue. The FBI is interviewing the current wife (not the first who was physically beaten). This woman apparently drove Mateen to the club if I read it correctly.
Still sorting out her role, if any, and what she might have known.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
An Open Letter To Straight People On The Pulse Massacre
"Less than one year ago, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled same-sex marriage legal across the country, finalizing a trend that began eleven years earlier in Massachusetts. Less than three days ago, over 50 people were murdered at Pulse, a gay night club in Orlando, in what is now the biggest mass shooting to occur in the United States. And it happened during our LGBT Pride Month.
Some of you may think that the LGBTQ+ battle is over, that it ended with the triumphant legalization of same-sex marriage. Some of you may even think that the LGBTQ+ community has been greedy and overreaching by “infringing” upon the “rights of the majority” — rights LGBTQ+ folks continue to be denied...
...As a whole, us humans like to distance ourselves from the past when it is ugly. We like to convince ourselves that we’ve reached some sort of fairy-tale ending, so that no one has has to deal with feelings of guilt or accountability. This kind of thinking is not new...
...We do this so we can wash our hands of the atrocities committed in our country on a daily basis. We do it so that when things like this horrific shooting happen we can chalk it up to an extremist madman instead of acknowledging that many of us played a role in shaping the culture needed for this type of crime to occur.
This kind of approach is easy and it’s comfortable, but it’s beyond dangerous. It does not fix the situation at all; it simply perpetuates the cycles of violence in place...
...The reality is that LGBTQ+ people are still discriminated against and victimized on a daily basis. Same-sex marriage does not change that and you cannot expect us to conveniently forget the past as some sort of payment for the rite of marriage. This mass shooting was not an isolated event, or remnants of antiquated homophobia, or just religious extremism. It stemmed from the very real homophobic culture that exists in our country — the culture many of us contribute to whether we’d like to admit it or not.
If you are a person who believes “tolerance” is enough, you are contributing to the problem. You don’t need to beat up an LGBTQ+ person to commit a hate crime or encourage another person to do so. If you misgender Caitlyn Jenner, say problematic and incorrect things about bathroom equality, cringe at the thought of gay affection, or use phrases like “no homo” or “that’s so gay” you are contributing to the culture that fostered this crime...
...If you are an ally, you must be an active ally and truly combat homophobia and transphobia when you see it. This means calling someone out when they say something hurtful or ugly. It means caring more about what you feel is right than what other people think of you. It means not tokenizing LGBTQ+ people, or dismissing their struggles, or spouting “liberal” thoughts just to score social brownie points. The LGBTQ+ community does not need to be patronized. What we need is for people to stand up for what is right.
The LGBTQ+ community is one of the most resilient groups in the world. We are full of vibrant survivors who continue to be joyous and loving in spite of the ugly battles behind us and ahead. The shooting at Pulse was an attack on LGBTQ+ love, an attack meant to break us, but the truth is we can never be broken. We have suffered through and survived too much to be destroyed, but at the same time just because we can withstand the worst of storms does not mean we should be subjected to them...
...We shouldn’t have to live in a world where our love is questioned and dismissed. We shouldn’t have to live knowing that many of our community members are on the streets or in the cemetery. And we shouldn’t have to live in a world where we have to mourn the deaths of fifty of our brothers and sisters. Because we deserve better from our government, from our society, and from you. Because we shouldn’t have to say 'it gets better.' We should be able to say 'it is better.'”
She "knew", but didn't say anything? That makes her part of the problem. And very possibly an unwitting accessory to the crime. Or perhaps not so unwitting?
http://www.newsweek.com/no-doubt-abo...-attack-470068
"We should be in no doubt about what the motivation was for the tragic events in Orlando.
And yet, over the past few days, as people try to make sense of this attack, there has been a reaching for reassurance that there was a cause, a reason, that we as a society can point a finger at something that could make such violence possible.
Homophobia, biphobia and transphobia as an answer, for some, seemed too simple an explanation. Or, perhaps, too unpleasant to think about. Yes, this was an act of terror, but we must accept that the reason that this attack happened exactly where it happened was because of hatred toward lesbian, gay, bi and trans people. There is no denying that this was a homophobic hate crime...
...The truth is that this horrific hate crime won’t come as a surprise to LGBT people. Only last year, the wife of one of my colleagues was viciously attacked for dressing outside of her gender norms—she wore a tie. Whether you see it or not, lesbian, gay, bi and trans people are still attacked and ostracized every day for no other reason than they are who they are.
More than 100 hate crimes are committed against LGBT people every week. Hatred toward and discrimination against trans people is also rife, and so much goes unreported.
In more than half the world LGBT people may not be protected against workplace discrimination and in 73 countries around the world sex with someone of the same sex is illegal...
...I would suggest that the reason there has been such reluctance to accept that this attack was motivated by homophobic, biphobic and transphobic attitudes is because we then have to accept the truly unpalatable. That homophobia, biphobia and transphobia is very much alive and well, and we know this. It exists in our workplaces, our schools and in our communities, and quite often it goes unchallenged. And while it might not lead people to commit acts of violence, it is still acceptable to be abusive toward LGBT people.
Homophobic comments are made and sometimes this abuse isn’t greeted with shock but laughter. Children still use the taunt of ‘that’s so gay’ and people turn a deaf ear.
Role models in our communities make hateful statements about the LGBT community, and we nominate them for awards.
It’s still acceptable to be homophobic and it is truly sobering and sad that it takes a tragedy like this to bring this to everyone’s attention...
...The lesbian, gay, bi and trans community is strong, beautiful and wonderfully diverse. We will continue to stand tall and support one another with love, kindness and open arms.
Please join us in doing so. Stand by the side of all LGBT people everywhere, and recognise the specific forms of discrimination that many of them face, whether it’s as a result of disability, gender identity, ethnicity or indeed faith. Many LGBT Muslims are feeling particularly vulnerable in the wake of the Orlando attack, as some people continue to claim that faith committed this heinous crime. It didn’t. An individual did.
Let’s also not forget to love, embrace, support and look out for one another. This is an extremely dark time for lesbian, gay, bi and trans people around the world, but we must look towards a brighter future."
That's all well and good, sounds great coming from one of the LEAST TOLERANT group to folks of differing opinions. They are more than happy to attempt to run a businessman who DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE against gays in his hiring or who he offers his services to out of business as they attempted to do with Chic-fil-a owner Daniel Cathy who PERSONAL opposition to same sex marriage but DID NOT discriminate on a business level. They viciously attacked him for his personal beliefs simply because they were not the same as theirs even though he didn't discriminate in any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krank
And this letter is a perfect example of narcissism at its finest . This was an attack by an INDIVIDUAL. While many disagree with the life style on a personal level, I know few short of those in the Westboro Baptist Church and their ilk who believe that the gay community should be exterminated. In fact this tragedy hos shown exactly the OPPOSITE. There has been a general and worldwide outpouring of support. But don't let that stop the gay community from using it as a platform to take the actions of ONE INDIVIDUAL and use it to paint with a broad brush. Is the gay community discriminated against? Sure but ALL groups are to some degree.
This was the act of ONE individual who was acting under the influence of a religious sect that has no tolerance for homosexuality. That religious sect has an agenda to destroy this country due to our support of Israel. In general, that religion is oppressive on many level and not just towards the LGBT community.
The reality is that LGBTQ+ people are still discriminated against and victimized on a daily basis. Same-sex marriage does not change that and you cannot expect us to conveniently forget the past as some sort of payment for the rite of marriage. This mass shooting was not an isolated event, or remnants of antiquated homophobia, or just religious extremism. It stemmed from the very real homophobic culture that exists in our country — the culture many of us contribute to whether we’d like to admit it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
If you are a person who believes “tolerance” is enough, you are contributing to the problem.
Every person in this nation can claim discrimination to some degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krank
I'm not contributing to the problem because I don't care one way or the other. It makes ZERO difference to me. Now if the LGBT community had the same opinion about my opinion then I'd be fine. See me being indifferent isn't enough. I have to SUPPORT their point of view. So IMO, yes, TOLERANCE IS ENOUGH. I don't ask the LGBT community to come out and support my causes...and if they don't I don't threaten to destroy their businesses. That's where we differ.
http://www.newsweek.com/no-doubt-abo...-attack-470068Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
"The truth is that this horrific hate crime won’t come as a surprise to LGBT people. Only last year, the wife of one of my colleagues was viciously attacked for dressing outside of her gender norms—she wore a tie. Whether you see it or not, lesbian, gay, bi and trans people are still attacked and ostracized every day for no other reason than they are who they are.
More than 100 hate crimes are committed against LGBT people every week. Hatred toward and discrimination against trans people is also rife, and so much goes unreported.
In more than half the world LGBT people may not be protected against workplace discrimination and in 73 countries around the world sex with someone of the same sex is illegal.
Trans laws are lagging woefully behind, both in the U.K. and abroad. And it shows in the hate crime statistics. Up to a third of trans people experience anti-trans abuse every year (Galop, 2014). Transphobic hate crime has risen every year for the past four years.
I would suggest that the reason there has been such reluctance to accept that this attack was motivated by homophobic, biphobic and transphobic attitudes is because we then have to accept the truly unpalatable. That homophobia, biphobia and transphobia is very much alive and well, and we know this. It exists in our workplaces, our schools and in our communities, and quite often it goes unchallenged. And while it might not lead people to commit acts of violence, it is still acceptable to be abusive toward LGBT people...
...The lesbian, gay, bi and trans community is strong, beautiful and wonderfully diverse. We will continue to stand tall and support one another with love, kindness and open arms.
Please join us in doing so. Stand by the side of all LGBT people everywhere, and recognise the specific forms of discrimination that many of them face, whether it’s as a result of disability, gender identity, ethnicity or indeed faith. Many LGBT Muslims are feeling particularly vulnerable in the wake of the Orlando attack, as some people continue to claim that faith committed this heinous crime. It didn’t. An individual did."
Garbage like that is why one should never read the Huff-Post. Stuff like that only serves to sway the ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krank
The article doesn't do his words justice. I watched the presser live and his story is haunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krank
Krank, many of these pieces you have linked seems to place the blame for the attack in Orlando at the feet of society. I don't see this as an attack on the LGBT community, I see this an attack on Americans by a radical Islamist seeking to take out as many unarmed Americans as possible.
I'm curious of your opinion on that piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krank
I found this striking: If you are a person who believes “tolerance” is enough, you are contributing to the problem.
I ran that through my universal political translator, and it says "if you don't accept and embrace everything we do and believe then you are a problem, so you must abandon your beliefs and embrace ours."
Honestly I find that to be about as self absorbed as you can get. I have no doubt gay people face persecution and discrimination, and I'm fine calling that out and debating it and addressing it, but the idea that anyone who simply, fundamentally, in their own belief system, disagrees is somehow a "problem", is an affront to the basic principles of individual liberty in this country.
I have news for him. For the entire history of this country we've disagreed on social norms and behaviors, and the way it has worked is we are all free to do things as we please and we do NOT have to adopt the ways of others.
Personally I'm very comfortable around the LGBT community, though I think the idea that there are 31 "gender identities" is nothing more than self-absorbed tripe, but just b/c I'm comfortable with it doesn't mean everyone has to be. So long as they don't impose on the rights of a gay person to do as he/she pleases that's all the obligation they have in this social contract.
To me calling someone a "homophobe" when they have not exhibited anything more than disagreement with a cause or social agenda tells you a lot. the same way someone who doesn't support welfare is called a racist or is against the poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krank
I actually pointed out here long ago in a post that the gay community should be one of the groups most loudly demanding we do something about ISIS and radical Islam, as they are persecuting gays in a very stone age way, simply murdering them in the streets.
I agree this is a political move to drive a wedge into the Left with the LGBT community, but that doesn't make the point any less valid. For all the bluster about the rights of gays and women and the need to spread social justice throughout the world in places like Africa, we are doing damned little to spread some justice to protect those groups where they are being treated by far the worst.
ISIS and the Taliban and the other extremist groups are the most anti-women, anti-gay, anti-liberty group maybe in the modern era. They are every bit the equivalent of the Nazis or the Japanese militarists in China. For a Left, a group that by and large has complained about every injustice on earth, they are oddly quiet on a policy towards ISIS that seems to be mostly just hoping they grow old and get bored with it and die off.
Many high profile Hollywood types have come out against Israel, in support of a Palestinian Authority who actively condones killing civilians, but have said nary a word about a group that murders gays as a matter of policy and is operating an open market in female slavery.
when the Academy Awards get hijacked routinely to talk about the situation in Tibet or some other far off land, I wonder why no one has lamented the horrible nightmare that is living in ISIS occupied territory. I bet every person in that area would gladly relocate to Tibet.
I agree this is politics, but it does have a point. The LGBT community thus far has done more to blame conservatives and gun advocates and even just average Americans than they have to blame the messages of ISIS and other radical Muslim leaders including those in this country or the policies of an Administration that have allowed those messages to continue unabated.
He picked out gays b/c of some probable deep persona issues but also b/c a big part of the radical Islamic agenda is to persecute gays. they have actively called for killing them. This isn't a problem with society, this is a problem with letting radical leaders run around calling for murder and convincing insane people to go do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithKSR
As an aside, I have a 30 star kentucky state flag I'm going to auction. Ought to be quite a piece, we're doing authentication on it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krank
Sadly, it is one segment of a faith that certainly encouraged this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krank
I have a feeling if the Southern Baptists started calling for the murder of gays in order to save them, and then someone who went to one of those churches and heard those calls to murder gays went out and did it, the LGBT community wouldn't be so forgiving.
it is a faith that must be quashed by the much larger Muslim majority who do not accept their interpretation, just as all Christians must stand up to the Westboro Baptist Church and their hate speech towards gays and Jews and others. I don't accept that either speak for the majority who are part of the broader religion, but to deny they are doing what they are doing b/c of their faith and beliefs is to twist the English language. They are doing it b/c they believe their religion calls them to do it, they're just deeply wrong and in a very small minority of their broader faith.
Doc I wish I'd read this before I typed my response. "+1" would have been a lot quicker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
It's utterly self absorbed, and a fundamental disrespecting of the basic principles of individual liberty he purports to uphold.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/loretta-l...011.html?nhp=1
"...The victims of this attack were living in an America that had newly recognized their fundamental right to marry. They were living in a country that had draped the White House in a rainbow flag. They were living in a world where the highest court in our land had declared that love is love. And remember this, and know this, and hold onto this: We are still that country. That is still us.”...
...“As we all try, as we always do, to make some sense, to find some reason in an inherently senseless act, I want our LGBT friends and neighbors and family members to know this: that we support you,” she continued.
Movements for progress are never without opposition, she reminded. “Every movement indeed has faced opposition, has faced threats, has faced violence and fear. But we will persevere,” she said.
“And let us declare,” she said, “that far from dividing us as terrorism aims to do, let us show the world that this attack, this attack has brought us together in support. It has brought us together in solidarity. It has brought us together in love.”
Lynch also pledged the full resources at her command to the investigation of the attack, which left 49 victims dead. “I want you to know that the Department of Justice — I and all of my colleagues the FBI, the ATF, our national security division, our U.S. attorney’s office in Florida, our state and local partners — are doing everything that we can to investigate this appalling crime. And we will bring all resources to bear — everything we have — to this investigation.”
Lynch also pledged the full resources at her command to the investigation of the attack, which left 49 victims dead. “I want you to know that the Department of Justice — I and all of my colleagues the FBI, the ATF, our national security division, our U.S. attorney’s office in Florida, our state and local partners — are doing everything that we can to investigate this appalling crime. And we will bring all resources to bear — everything we have — to this investigation.”
To my reading eyes, that is more political babble and pandering. The perp is dead so what will spending untold millions to investigate everything and everyone really do? It might prove his wife is an accomplice, or give cause to bring the radical who publicly supported killing gays to a circus of a trial. What else will it accomplish? Will it suddenly cause radical muslims to start loving gays? Will it do anything to stop the next attack?