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As I watch the primary season unfold, it feels like we're watching history being made. Either Trump's the nominee and the GOP explodes, or he's not the nominee and he runs as a 3rd party candidate, sealing the deal for Hillary (and possibly exploding the GOP in the process, anyway).
It's like seeing a bad car wreck getting ready to happen--it's going to be horrible, but I can't look away. It just feels like an historic crossroads.
I have a sinking feeling.
Note - I have generally thought my friends' concerns about the country's well-being have been overstated. To some degree, I still do. But I feel some of it has merit. Scary.
Trump will win the nomination, then likely defeat Hillary. Lots of anti-establishment feelings among the voters these days.
I'll say this, if people hand trump the black box many of our problems in this country will disappear in a year, or maybe two if we're lucky.
Nah. He'll embarrass us repeatedly with his mouth, Biden but with more wit and a mean streak, but he's no fool and he's not stupid. His bluster is his negotiation tactic.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
People said the same about Reagan in 1980, but his rhetoric and spending proved successful. It pays to have our enemies thinking we will respond with massive force and even that we're a little crazed and unpredictable. Obama is more predictable than the rising of the sun and look what has happened.
Trump is uncooth and a stunning stereotype of New York bluster, but he's highly intelligent and has proven he can run a massive, complex organization with near intuitive level ability.
We'll cringe at his misogynistic insults, his petty spats with the media and his adversaries, but in the end I bet he proposes more useful legislation than any President in a long time, with more focus on the details of spending and common sense policy, and I bet in foreign relations he has some of these self important potentates back in their heels.
And I'll be clear, I'm not a fan, but as one of the many who are sick of politics as usual, I'm willing to live with some rough edges to get someone who's actually run a business and doesn't have any love for and isn't beholden to the Washington system.
From the more liberal side, look at it this way: here's a man who is above any special interest. Wall Street has no hold on him b/c he doesn't need the money, nor is he tied to the establishment politicians or king maker donors. None of them.
That system is corrupt and a drag on all of us on either side of the aisle. Putting a wrench in it the size of Trump could do a lot of good for everyone.
Really he's the pro free market version of Bernie Sanders. Bernie isn't beholden b/c he won't take their money, Trump isn't beholden b/c he has more than they do.
.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcat
I'm no Trump fan but will say this.... He won't take no "poo". People know they stand with him and there is no doubt who are his friends and who are not. He will play hard ball and that's what you want from a leader at times
Trump is okay. I am not a big fan by any means, but given some of the alternatives and the machinations of the RNC against him, he might be the best choice.
Again, I am not a big Trump fan. But I will say this........if the rumors floating around of a "brokered convention" by the RNC turn out to be true, and in doing so they deny Trump the Republican nomination, then the proof of the GOP catering to outside interests instead of its membership will ruin the GOP. And may effectively hand the DNC control of our country for the next several general election cycles.
Of course, if the GOP denies Trump the nomination and he decides to run a 3rd party candidacy, he may very well be the next President anyway, just because the GOP will have really pissed off its membership and will have effectively committed political suicide.
I hate the very idea of a "brokered convention". If they do that, it means they don't give a damn about the American people or America, that all that matters to them is their damn political machine and the power within. Let this play out as it is intended to. Let the chips fall where they may.
And I am still very much in favor of building those hanging gallows on the Courthouse lawn!
I share your views. In all my years I have never missed voting, every race including special elections at the local level. Here I sit on the eve of the Super Tuesday election in AL with no clue as to who will receive my presidential vote. There is no need to vote in the Democrat primary. That's settled in this state. I would have to be dead drunk to vote for Trump or Cruz. I met Kasich 23 years ago and was very impressed with him. He has no chance. I love Ben Carson. He has no chance. That leaves Rubio. He sends a positive message that appeals to younger voters, I'm not sure he is ready for the job. He has almost no chance. Liquor is pretty expensive in Alabama so I doubt I can get dead drunk before tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by KSRBEvans
My guess is the GOP is on its last legs as the party we knew growing up. I believe it is over for them. We will see a new party emerge after this election. Dems have serious problems as well. It will take them longer to reorganize themselves. The Super Delegate issue will force major reforms.
My feelings are very mixed on Trump. I love that he has taken on the establishment and won. Love that he has engaged new voters. Love that he is not "PC". I agree with a lot of his thoughts.
But I can't say I love him being our next President. Then I look at the others and there is not one person I really like this year.
I think I might start drinking and just crash at Citizen's house and watch all of this unfold and sober up when it is all over.
We may be witnessing some major changes in both parties after this election.
Truthfully, I don't care much for either party anymore. The best thing that could happen is to see both sides torn apart and either let them die or rebuild themselves into something else more credible. If that's even possible.
We need to clean both houses and fix it to where career politicians no longer exist.
The POTUS should only be able to serve ONE TERM IN OFFICE, a term of 6 years. No re-election allowed. A U.S. Senator should only be allowed ONE TERM OF 6 YEARS IN OFFICE, No re-election allowed, to include not being able to run for office in the U.S. House of Representatives. A Representative should only serve either two three year terms or the current two year term not to exceed more than three consecutive terms only, with no re-election allowed after that, and not being eligible for election into the U.S. Senate after serving in the House.
And not only that, but these guys should not be allowed to be lobbyists for any of the special interest groups either. Once their term in office is over, no more federal government service should be allowed. Period.
I despise these career politicians. Career politicians are a cancer that needs to be removed from existence. And I am even more in favor of a gallows on the Courthouse lawn.
I've been drinking with Mick in the past. It takes a hell of a lot of booze to get him dead drunk.Quote:
Originally Posted by MickintheHam
Doc, I have never been more dissatisfied with an election in my life. I like the message Trump sends to the Washington insiders and party bosses. I don't care for him. He says too much that is shallow. You can't pick up all the illegals and send them packing without first a hearing. What are we going to do? Suspend the rules as Obama has done? And while he uses some language and phrases I have used, I don't use them publicly. If I vote for Kasich or Cruz in Alabama, I throw away the vote as it requires at least 20% vote to get a proportion of the delegates. As it stands now Kasich, Cruz and Carson will fall below that threshold. It is a ridiculous process for electing a party nominee. We'll get what we deserve.
Mick it is a disturbing situation. LIke you there's a lot I agree with in principle with Trump, I just wish it wasn't him personally the one in that seat.
Then there's the silly stuff. I am all for immigration reform and securing our borders, it's absurd we've allowed this to continue with no legal process in place for decades, but sending the 101st out to round up everyone here illegally and just dropping them off?
The media are holding back on him in hopes he wins, then they're going to play the biggest game of "gotcha" we've ever seen. ANd he's going to walk into most of it without even thinking b/c of his hubris and direct style.
BUt losing to Hillary is a non-option. There hasn't been a more corrupt, power mongering candidate for this office in my lifetime.
A President must be a diplomat first and foremost. for me, the decision is based on who I trust the lives of my children and grandchildren with.
The anti establishment vote does not take them into consideration. In most cases, it is a vote against what they're programmed to hate.
As for who I like, for the first time in a very ln time I would be tempted to cross party lines and vote Rubio. I like him and trust him.
Although I do dislike some of his policies.
Rubio would be my first choice. He's the establishment candidate but I think he could get some things done and he's smart and capable.
This isn't a vote against things people are "programmed" to dislike, neither for Trump or Sanders. It's a broad cross party frustration with the establishment of both parties. The Democrats see their party as having sold out on the broader liberal agenda and being about staying in power, and Republicans feel the same way about the GOP, that they sold out to be Democrat lite and voting for spending and regulation.
ALL of them (us) think the washington / Wall street power block works against BOTH of those sets of values. It's anti-free market and certainly anti-liberal. So on the left you get Sanders and democratic socialism and on the right you get ANYONE who can win the GOP nomination and blow up the establishment.
Rubio was / is my candidate however his recent antics have soured me a bit as they have made him.far.less presidential in my opinion. I also found Christie quite palatable but out of the race. Carson is clueless! No doubt he is smart but foreign policy is just something he doesn't seem to get.
I have never visited this forum before (that I remember). But, I just had to come here and see what Kentuckians (mostly) were saying about all of this stuff.
I'm about as moderate and Independent as they get politically. I am conservative on some issues and liberal on others. I vote for candidates of both parties all the time. So, this election is just fascinating for me.
Having said that, here are my "raised in the South, adulthood in California" opinions:
I would never vote for Donald Trump. Ever. And oddly, I appreciate some of his moderate views. And certainly his outsider point of view. But I don't trust him. At all. I don't trust what he stands for. Believes. I don't trust what he would do. I don't trust who he really would surround himself with. I just don't trust him.
He is a narcissistic, media manipulating genius.
He is the wrong man at the right time. In other words, people on both sides are desperate for an outsider. But Trump (although a pseudo outsider) is the wrong guy. He has tapped into the pulse of where so many Americans are...but that's also his problem. He's running this campaign like someone on a reality show where the audience votes them off. It's crazy to me. And it's working to some degree.
I actually think he would get his ass kicked by Hillary. In fact, I think it would be one of the more lopsided victories in Presidential history (non incumbent). He can't win minirities. He can't win women. He can't win most democrats. And he won't win over all republicans. Not only that, but he would energize the democrats to come out and vote in a way Hillary never could.
Cruz can't win imo. He's too rigid. He can't win independents.
I like Rubio. He should have been the nominee if they wanted to win. But he's now pulled a Chris Christie (ironically). He's a suicide bomber. He's going to kill himself for the "greater good of taking Trump down".
Kasich could have won my vote. He's a moderate and he's sensible. I trust him. But unfortunately politics is now a reality show and he's a nice Bachelor who won't kiss all the girls and sleep around so his ratings suck.
Hillary will win. She will be a chameleon and somehow convince people she's an "outsider". Or try. She will beat Bernie. And I think likely beat Trump pretty easily. This KKK stuff is going to kill him.
To me, the only alternative to Hillary winning (and that's not a terrible thing to me as I think she is similar to Bill and quite moderate actually) are two remote possibilities:
1. Cruz and Rubio team up. I would love to see Kasich and Rubio as they would be a much better national and general election ticket. But it wouldn't be enough to beat Trump. Cruz and Rubio would be.
Oddly, the only way I see that happening is if Rubio takes the 2nd chair. He might. He's not looking great in Florida. And Cruz will win Texas. Plus, I don't see Cruz taking chair 2.
2. Trump declares his "team" early on and chooses a diverse and moderate group.
This is his only shot to me. And I still don't think it will be enough. His biggest problem here is the people who could help him (McCain, Paul, Ryan, Haley, etc) most likely won't support him strongly or be willing to run with him. It can't just be a VP. He has to sell a team.
Sorry, a long book there. All just my opinion of course.
I still think there is a tiny outside chance Rubio pulls a rabbit out of his house and wins.
Either way, I think this is genuinely the end of the Republican Party as we know it.
I genuinely think a 3rd party is a distinct possibility now. A party of outsiders who don't take stands on social issues as much as economic ones. Libertarian mostly.
I got nothin. We started with a lot of choices and we are down to smart and creepy, Mussolini, doogie, and two guys with no shot.
Trump won "the last debate". He got pounded and both guys scored big shots and he didnt go down. I swear I still think he is a trojan horse he is so bad.
Why Carson outlasted Christie or Joe the plumber is beyond my understanding.
Christie endorsing Trump, though, shows he goes where the wind blows.
Ted Cruz is beyond odd. Super smart, disliked by everyone in the Senate. If you're not a decent person on the human scale, you cant be trusted.
Rubio has outlasted and outplayed but in the last debate he looked like a grinning fool, an unserious lightweight.
Kasich is as exciting as dirty dishes, but he is competent.
The original tea party mantra was "stop spending stop spending stop spending". Now it's "elect a fascist". Fail!
Between Barry Oh, the Donald, and 20 trillion in debt? The republic has fallen.
I was thinking yesterday about the creed for my college fraternity:
When I think of the better Presidents we've had, I think they fulfill most of these criteria. Would Trump? How many others this year would? Or in recent years?Quote:
The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe.
Maybe it's not relevant, but something I was thinking about.
Absolutely relevantQuote:
Originally Posted by KSRBEvans
This has been a very interesting thread.
BEvans, that creed is stellar.
Really like that creed as well.
As for Trump, he is going to do a few things that seemed to be impossible a year ago: Make Hillary sympathetic enough to be elected, give the Democrats back control of the Senate, get the Republicans to nominate a pro abortion, pro universal healthcare candidate whose personal morals would make Bill Clinton blush, and thus tear apart the GOP. Amazing. Astonishing.
It really is. I am not even a Republican and I can't stop watching the debates, etc. Its truly a Reality TV show. I listened to an interview with John McCain yesterday. He fits much of the Creed mentioned above. He was saying how sad and embarrassed he was at what has become of his party. The interviewer, correctly so, said that because of Trump there was no way to get any media attention unless you started slinging mud as Rubio has done. He even said that McCain was criticized for not doing it more against Obama.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoesSwayedBlue
His answer was stellar. He basically said that is true only if you care more about winning than you do your own integrity, ethics, and honor. He didn't and goes to sleep at night just fine.
Well, I held my nose, closed my eyes and took a drink! I voted to legalize Sunday alcohol sales. I then took a deep breath and voted for Rubio. It wan't easy as Kasich is clearly the class (what there is of it) in this 5 years old and upward claiming race. But with the 20% minimum vote required to received delegates, it made no sense to vote for someone who could not reach that level. The only saving grace was I was able to vote for a fellow UK grad who was running as a convention delegate pledged to the Florida Senator. I know I can trust her if the convention goes all to Hell.
Here in KY the only recent poll shows Rubio running 2nd to Trump, so my interests in voting for Rubio and striking an anti-Trump blow align. But if Rubio were down and Cruz or Kasich were in 2nd, I'd be voting for one of them.
Thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by MickintheHam
On my way now. I'm consistent with your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by MickintheHam
BTW, Trump is at a rally in Louisville tonight, which I expect to unleash all kinds of fresh hell. This guy was seen heading down Broadway to the event:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...mallow-man.jpg
And done. Sallie has two votes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell KSR
I really like Rubio, but it will be tough to stop the Trump train. That train will run Hillary over.
Trump scares the establishment wings of both parties, he is their worst nightmare. He is not held hostage by any special interest groups and will simply refuse to bow to them.
The oddity is that Trump is the kind of candidate our Founding Fathers had in mind. They never wanted career politicians to run the government.
One thing I really like about Trump is that he's rich and doesn't care, he won't owe anyone anything when he gets there, ought to make it very interesting.
The problem is that he's a walking gaff and is as likable as a porcupine. He's the opposite of "Presidential" in his entire manner.
But there were some pretty stunning characters among the Founding Fathers too, including Ben Franklin who was a partying, womanizing guy with an equally brash wit. He wasn't an ass though, people actually liked him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukpumacat
A few things to note. You mentioned you don't trust Trump. I'm not sure I do either but while with "the Donald", I'm not sure, with Hillary I KNOW I don't trust her. So for me it comes down to which is worse, somebody you're not sure or somebody you know?
Second, I think a whole lot of people have underestimated the disgust for the gov't that people have. You mentioned that Trump is the catalyst for a Clinton victory. Part of me says the opposite. A year ago Hillary was a shoe in. It was pretty much a foregone conclusion that she would be the next President. However I'm actually starting to believe that the one thing that can stop her is Trump. Talk about energizing! The guy has every pissed off American on his side and while that might alienate many hard conservatives, it's the hard conservativism that has lost the last 2 elections. Social issues are killing the far right. Trump seems less beholden to that and that is a good thing. Plus I'd love to see somebody tell the leader of Iran EXACTLY what they think of them. Screw the political correctness. Time for us to put on our big boy pants. Call them a bunch of terrorists. If they don't like it, tough! Tell the Mexican's to immigrate legally even if it hurts their feelings. Tell Chiiiinaaa to bite me on the trade issues, etc.... I got no problem with that. I'm tired of coddling our enemies and people who want to do us harm.
The GOP ticket will be Trump/Christie. Chris Christie is positioning himself for the #2 spot quite well. Personally I don't think its a bad one. As for the "end of the republican party", far from it. What it will lead to is a retooling of the party into one that is more inclusive and less rigid. Hopefully the crusty old farts that run the party will head for the hills and leave it to the more reasonable central leaning ones who actually do want less government and less intrusion into their lives.
I am pretty much in agreement with Doc.
Where the problem is going to be is with the RNC @ the Convention. If Trump garners the number of delegates he needs to be the GOP nominee and the RNC blocks that, there will be a major, major problem for the GOP as a whole entity. Like him or not, and again, I myself am not a fan, if he has the delegates to win the the RNC won't nominate him, then he will peel away from the GOP and basically dissolve the GOP. But another larger issue looms in all of this: if the RNC refuses his nomination, then not only are they doing that in public view, but they're telling us, the American people, that they are going to do what THEY want, no matter what, and that we have no voice in the matter. THAT WE, THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE, DO NOT MATTER AND HAVE NO VOICE IN THIS! Say what?? We don't matter? Just shut up and let "them" take care of this?? No, that's how we will have arrived at this sorry conclusion, because we let the career politicians go unchecked for decades now.
And from there it all goes downhill even further. I despise these people. I hate even giving them that designation, because they're not even really that anymore. And I have not served my country for all of these years, followed my parents lead and been a good and productive citizen to be told that my American citizenship means nothing anymore.
My guy is John Kasich. I think he is the single hope the nation and the Republican party have.
Rubio, like Obama, is a first term US senator who is not prepared to lead the country or work with folks on the other side.
And finding a middle ground between the extremes of the two parties is critical for the country to be successful.
Cruz to me is the second coming of Joe McCarthy. Some here liked shutting down the government. Me not so much. And I think most in the senate viewed Cruz's efforts as more about making a name for himself than defending the nation.
Trump is a loud mouth who speaks his mind but I don't think has the tact or the experience to lead the country and work with other countries.
Kasich as a governor is a head of state. He has experience in Congress and is moderate. Experience as a governor means a lot as being senator does not prepare you to serve as a head of state.
On the other side, Hilary is someone I don't think should be in office for a variety of reasons (the email security breach being near the top of the list). But on a day when you have candidates mocking the hand size of their competitors, Hilary looks far more presidential than I would like.
A brokered Republican convention would some television. It might also destroy the Republican party if the RNC works to keep Trump from being the party nominee despite having more supporters than the other candidates.
Rubio had me until the whole "Gang of Eight" situation. I am not sure he is totally trustworthy now.
Kasich I like, but he doesn't have enough clout by himself.
Not a fan of Christie.
Not of fan of Trump, but I do like some of the things he says. Do not agree with everything he says, but some of it is gold.
McCarthy's methods were all wrong, but he was correct t in his assertions of Communist infiltrations into the U.S. government and Hollywood. His hearings just ended up being good theater, and not much else. But this is where I disagree with you History........Cruz and McCarthy are light years apart except for being conservatives.
Just my humble opinion.
We will see, that's for sure. Politics is fun for me because I don't get too worked up about it.
I still think Trump loses to Hillary. He and Christie are so unlikable. And as I said, all of the excitement Trump brings with new voters helps Hillary as well. He will do more to bring out the vote against him as he does for him. Jmo of course. But a lot of people hate him. More than that, I know many republican friends who say they will never vote for him.
I could easily see a 3rd party candidate getting in the race.
Doc, I completely agree that the rigid social issues have neutered the Republican Party. However, those people aren't going away. They are a huge voting bloc and many of them are voting for Trump and Cruz (and Carson for that matter). I think Trump has just "played the role" of a conservative and honed in on two hot button issue to change the dialogue. It's worked.
My single biggest issue with him (and this is a huge can of worms) is that I think he plays on the bigotry and racism that still exists in America. I'm starting to honestly believe that. Forget the KKK stuff. But his comments about women, Mexicans, Native Americans and Muslims are striking a chord for a lot of people. And I'm not sure it's a good chord.
It depends what you consider good, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by ukpumacat
The way I see it is he's exposed exactly how much bigotry is still alive in this country. I knew it was still prevalent, especially in the South, but the amount of unbridled hate that people around his campaign feel comfortable with showing publically is incredible. I have a hard time believing Trump himself believes in all of this garbage himself, but is enough of an opportunist to play it for a nomination.
I'm not all that worked up about the bigotry and racism stuff. Heck, for the last 8 years I've been called a racist by the President, and its like water on a duck's back.... or Bill Clinton after a session with a white house intern..... it just rolls off.
Over the last few days I've chuckled over the KKK thing. Disavow David Duke and the KKK? Why? Duke said he liked Trump. OK. Its not like they are buddies and friends. Its not like Trump is looking at Duke to be his running mate because they share ideas. Trump has no control over who says they like him. Duke has every right to support whomever he wants. As for the KKK, Trump wasn't in the KKK so why would he disavow something he never vowed to? The definition of disavow is to disclaim knowledge of, connection with, or responsibility for; disown; repudiate:-- None of those pertain to Trump. He has no connection to the KKK nor is he responsible for the KKK. So what exactly is he "disavowing"?
What some see as bigotry and racism I see as bluntness and lack of political correctness. Of course being a New Yorker, 99% of what he says is mild compared to what most New Yorkers say. He has never stated minorities are "lesser", only that he wants them to follow the same rules others do. Much of his appeal to others is his brashness and willingness to say what he believes. Personally I'm not all that fond of how he says things. Hey, I agree Rosie O'Donnell is a fat pig but I wish he would say it publicly... and saying that doesn't mean he hates women, just Rosie O'Donnell. The guy has hammered, Jeb Bush, Cruz and Rubio too. He is an equal opportunity insulter. Now if he just insulted women or blacks or hispanics, etc... then maybe he could be called a racist but that isn't the case. Now don't get me wrong, I'm NOT a Trump supporter. He isn't my first choice, or my second, third or fourth one either. But he isn't the LAST choice.
I would like to see Kasich run as VP if the The Donald gets the nomination. That should placate party leaders and give Trump a solid running mate who can handle the tasks he is delegated. (You will see a working VP if Trump is elected).
With all due respect to UK History, I agree we should never shut down the government. What we need is about a 25% reduction if the Federal Government work force.