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I have advocated this idea for years, and the analogy with alcohol is correct. And certainly, my job as a LEO would be a lot easier. And our country would be a lot safer, we'd all have better lives, AND......... the tax income from the legal use of this stuff would be huge.
More freedom, less government.
My views on here are well known, and I fully support his view.
the war on drugs has created the gang/cartel problem in this country just as prohibition of liquor funded the creation of organized crime. Gangs are part of the battle over distribution of drugs, and drugs are the basis of most crime in this country of every type from murder to robbery.
Just like prohibition, the argument is that legalization will lead to drug use and the ill effects thereof, but just like prohibition the truth is the illegality of them has done nothing to diminish use or the effects to society, while creating vast costs in lives and suffering.
In the 1800s through to prohibition in the 20s it was "Demon Rum" and the damage done to families, etc. by alcohol consumption. Now the same arguments are made against drugs, and we've had exactly the same result as we had with prohibition. Vast underground networks that create and fund crime of all kinds.
It's estimated that during Prohibition, when alcohol was illegal nationwide, there were as many as 100,000 illegal bars in New York City alone. That's not a type-o, 100,000. There was no reduction in consumption, just far more crime and criminal behavior.
Just like today, booze poured in from across the border, Canada and Mexico, and was home grown (gin has spices in it b/c bathtub gin tastes like lighter fluid).
The situation is identical. I've never seen such a perfect match with history, and here we are repeating its mistakes.
Tobacco was far better handled. Legalize drugs, tax them, and spend the money to get people to stop using them. You eliminate drug related crime, which means murder/robbery rates drop by 50%-80%, you save entire nations like Mexico and Columbia who are being destroyed by US illegal drug consumption. You even stop funding the Taliban with heroin money from Afghanistan.
At least for the love of Pete let's legalize pot. It won't make much of a dent in crime, but then again it's not heroin either, and it will reduce crime somewhat and free up valuable law enforcement resources for serious crimes.
Now, as I've said on here but new folks may not know, I HATE drug use. I have never tried any illegal drugs, and never will. I'm strongly against their use, but I refuse to live in fantasy land when it comes to policy. We've spent tens of billions, arrested more people than any nation on Earth, created vast criminal networks, and you can still get drugs in any school in the nation.
Time to wise up. Oh, and if you eliminate the crime from drugs, guess what happens to gun violence stats in this country? (to cross with some of our other discussions on here). The source of all this mess is an attempt by a nation with vast freedom to stop use of something people demand and others are willing to supply. In a nation with privacy, protections against search and seizure, etc. it's simply impossible to enforce, nor should we try.
I wish our leaders would learn from Prohibition. When it was repealed we didn't see vast waves of drunken zombies in the streets. Alcohol consumption has been managed and is largely harmless, and the ill effects of its use have been a far smaller burden on society than the creation of the mafia.
True some drugs are far nastier than alcohol, but the crime and expenditure of resources has likewise been far higher than in prohibition. Chicago is averaging 2-3 murders per DAY, most of it from the drug trade.
Start with pot and work down the list. It's possible we could legalize enough drugs that some could stay illegal and not be enough to create the crime issues. Would you spend far more money on heroin if you can get cocaine? I can't say having never tried them, but an incremental approach is preferable to what we have now and we can learn as we go in a controlled manner.
While we are at it, we need to get rid of privatized prisons also. Creating incentives to create new criminals is not a strategy for success for our country.
Chuck you're very out spoken on this and suncat is a LEO. Unlike Chuck, years ago I had a lot of experience with pot and drugs. I am a Vietnam Vet, in the TET offensive and came back with my head screwed on a little backward, but that was over 40 years ago. I got my ship turned around in the right direction in my mid 20's and have never looked back. On the subject of pot vs alcohol, there is no contest there, alcohol is much worse. The problem with pot is it puts you in contact with other type drug dealers and so begins the life of use. Prescription drugs are sold on the streets just like cocaine, crack, heroin and the list goes on and on. Prescription is where these drugs should be placed, not on the open market. These are dangerous products and should be under a doctors care. Pot on the other hand could be taxed and sold for profit and does have a medical use. I have seen many lives ruined by the use of drugs. Wine is the strongest thing that I drink other than a beer now and then. I don't know the answer, but putting cocaine, crack and heroin on the street as a legal product isn't the answer
cattails, if surviving Vietnam didn't mess with your head something was probably wrong. It decimated my family in many ways.
I don't hold use against anyone, didn't say that but I should. It's not a superiority thing, if anything it was a fear thing b/c a) my mother was dead serious she'd have kicked me out of the house, and b) I wasn't going to get a scholarship for my good looks or athletic ability, and combined with my geeky un-cool nature it was the right fit to take that approach.
Now, as for drinking, I was a semi-pro for many years, and can still get standing doubles without even having to warm up.
FWIW, I also don't really look down on those who join gangs or become dealers. It's wrong, we all know it, but presented with almost no employment prospects and little chance at a quality education I really can't say I wouldn't see the drug trade as a way to move up economically. It would be wrong, but I can't sit here and say I wouldn't do it. What's the difference between an investment banker peddling securities they know are worthless and a drug dealer in the projects moving crack? Not a whole lot in some ways.
Legalize pot and let's see what happens. Maybe people move to pot and away from harder drugs and that helps the problem. It won't be a massive shift but it may help some. It will for sure eliminate one whole level of crime and commitment of resources.
Next is some kind of methodone/prescription based system for harder drugs. I would hate to see them used, but since that's not even in question (they're being used and will continue to be used) it's far better to have them used through a prescription controlled system that eliminates the crime surrounding it. Spend the tax money from it and the money we save from the war on drugs trying to get people to not avail themselves of the drugs.
exactly what we did with tobacco, and it worked. Took decades, but it really worked.
I hate the solution, I really do. I just see it as the lesser of two evils, the current one having all the use plus all the crime and use of resources. I didn't always feel this way, I just decided we couldn't win the war this way and needed to try a far different approach.
CBBN, that is an outstanding sharing of thoughts. Where is the clapping hands emoticon when I need it?
Our lazy a$$ tech idiot hasn't gotten us one. that guy must be on drugs. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_bgblue
Thanks for the compliment, but if I really had any insights beyond the "we're getting our butts kicked, time to cut our losses" then I'd deserve applause. It's just a lesser of two evils, but it beats picking the worst of two evils.
cattails -- I just want to say again I'm glad you made it home and got through the very hard process of healing from the scars of that war. When discussions of Presidents comes up my pick for worst, and I don't think it's close, is Lyndon Johnson, and if it were just for Vietnam he would still win my vote, much less when we toss in the War on The Poor. I wont' go into details but I'm deeply respectful and appreciative of those who served in that war.
Many times life only offers us 2 choices. There is no way to circumvent that, and even though we want to think our way out of making the choice as it is presented, that choice will still be there when we are done thinking.
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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
Chuck the hard part was coming home to a country that not only didn't thank you but treated you like dirt for being there. And that put you looking for an acceptance group and that is where you fall into the wrong crowd. While in Nam I never did anything, pot or drugs. Now I was with friends going to buy from another camp, so guilty on that. My healing began when I went to The Wall to see the names and I heard the words thanks you as I walked in. Now granted I was by no means any kind of hero, far from it. I most likey had PDS for a couple of years but that is long gone. People didn't understand we were just kids, very early 20s, we just did what we were told. Truth be known we should have never been in Vietnam in the first place, what a waste of lives and we agree on LBJ. With the tunnel system they had bombs were near useless. Got off track. Hard drugs could be sold by prescription to even users as I think it is done in some other countries. Get the illegal drugs off the streets in the volumn it is today. Pot on the other hand should be sold on the open market and taxed. Those two things would solve a lot of problems. Did you know that pot is not legal anywhere in the world? It is looked past in some countries but not legal.
I hear you on coming back and that's a big reason why those returning from that war are especially important to me. Trust me, an awful lot of Americans deeply appreciate you and all the Vietnam vets. I've been by the Wall, but haven't had the fortitude or chance to spend time there yet. My uncle was killed in the delta in 67. I'm just in DC with people and this is something I have to do alone.
Back to drugs, I don't get the pot legal status worldwide either. I'm not surprised it's illegal but in so much of the rest of the world too? that just seems odd to me as well given that it's not considered a "hard drug" even in the US. I know for many places that's a technicality, but it's still weird.
I agree pot should also be loosely or non-regulated. The only issues there are with taxation b/c it's easy to grow and avoid the taxes, but I'd tax what we can that will go through commercial/retail and just don't sweat the rest. Pass it so you can grow for your own use knowing some will be sold but let it go.
Politically I wouldn't try to address hard drugs, just get pot legalized and let the dust settle from that for a while. it's something more and more people can agree on whether they support pot use or not. Legalize it, tax it, and try to convince people to not use it. I think we can move that ball forward politically.
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Originally Posted by CitizenBBN
Sorry about the loss of your uncle, the delta was no place to be in 67 and I also went to the wall alone, it was my private time. I make it a point to talk to and thank any person I see in uniform, they need that. I would put a heavy tax on pot for the simple reason of how expensive it is today and the money could be used. I have a good friend that is on disability from Nam, great guy but his head is all screwed up. He did forward recon, tunnel rat and sniper, spent a lot of time with one man in the jungle, no way I could have done that. He sees a doctor I believe twice a week, he is a really funny guy, asked his doctor if he was crazy. He still smokes pot and is open about it, told me how expensive it is. Myself I have no desire to do any of that stuff legal or not. Right, get pot legal first and then see what can be done about the hard drugs. We would save so much money on people in prison and law enforcement free to do other task. People that want to do pot or hard drugs are going to find a way, why not control it in some form and instead of spending money bring in revenue for other use. Trust me alcohol is so much more a danger than pot. Good friend of mine flys for UPS, goes all over the world, says in some countries people walk the street smoking pot, it's just a law that the government looks the other way.
It seems like every single person I've ever seen, liberal, conservative, black, white, polka dotted, whatever else... has said that the drug problem in this country is a direct result of the ill-conceived War On Drugs. Would someone explain to me why we're still pursuing it when it seems like the vast, vast majority of Americans don't want it?
Not without delving into a variety of conspiracy theories.Quote:
Originally Posted by SalsaKat
This is a great video about this topic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Wabz9tLFw
Well for one thing, a lot of politicians at the local, state and national levels are making a lot of untaxed money off the illegal drug trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by SalsaKat
Dan that was going to be my statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_bgblue
Citizen I must say I agree with everything you said. And to be honest with the financial condition this country is in right now........ legalizing drugs might be the only way to create enough income while saving an enormous amount of Federal Funds in the process to save our current way of life.
Of course they are. Where you do think cocaine, crack, crystal meth, etc came from to begin with? They were all introduced to people via the CIA decades ago. Keeping drugs illegal is a form of control and profit for the government. Thankfully, the generation that made pot illegal and wants to keep it that way is dying off, so we'll probably see the decriminalization of marijuana in the next decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_bgblue