But thousands of Syrian Muslims Are Welcome?
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First of all, I think it's pretty clear that thousands of Syrian Muslims are NOT welcomed.
Second, there is a process for acceptance. In this instance 27 of the Christian refugees in question were detained after illegally entering the country through the US border. Once they were detained they were given the opportunity to follow procedure and fully be vetted, through a less vigorous process that is being applied to Syrian refugees, I'll add, and 22 of the 27 falsified information and lied throughout the process. They SHOULD be deported. The 5 that didn't lie, well, they're here. 5 are potentially facing fraud charges.
The system worked in this occasion and will too with the women and orphan Syrian refugees.
It is a tenet of Islam to lie to anyone who is considered an "infidel". Us. Americans, in particular. Do you really believe that most of these Muslim refugees will be honest and forthright answering questions from the USCIS? I don't. Lying and intentional deception is part of those people's lives in the Middle East.
They're ALL going to come here empty-handed with no documentation and we'll have little way to verify anything they tell us. This is a recipe for a disaster of epic proportions.
I am all for helping those that are in genuine need of help. That is who we are as Americans. But I am not in favor of letting in any of these people, Christian or Muslim. If they cannot prove who and what they are then we do not need them here. America and the security of this country are my number one concern.
If lying to ICE or otherwise breaking the law or falsifying records was a reason to deport someone, a whole lot fewer career criminal aliens would be in the US today.
Keep the folks trying desperately to escape obvious genocide, send back the ones San Francisco gleefully puts on the streets when they let them out of jail. Both of those groups no doubt have lied to the government to get what they want, I'll live with the former's more than the latter's.
The first bold statement is just pure 'BS'. I have many Muslim friends and none of them look at us(and by that, I mean Americans) as infidels, and don't feel this sense to lie. It's just wrong to find a select evil few and broad stroke them as a religion as a whole. Every Muslim person that I've had the privilege to call a friend are the nicest, most spiritual and loving people that I have ever met. I'm not saying that is representative of the whole religion either, my point being is that most people are like any good people and have the same dreams and aspirations. There are good and evil people no matter what race or religion for which you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by suncat05
The 2nd statement, nobody wants people coming to the US that can't prove who they are, where they came from, etc. That's not the issue at all here. The debate(as Sarah Palin put it so "eloquently" on Seth Meyers last night) isn't about whether we as a nation wants to help people, it's the vetting process that's up for debate. That argument is complete 'BS' too, because basically what that implies is that not only do Republicans not want illegal immigration(a stance that probably, guessing, 90% of Americans support) but because the system "is broken" that we should accept nobody.
People making this point, tend to do so out of a blind allegiance to the notion that the federal government in incompetent in everything they do and tend to lack the understanding of processes that actually work(although not perfect), even if many of these processes were established under Republican administrations.
Staying on topic here, these Iraqi Christians will be deported because the process is working. To make a blanket objection to putting Syrian refugees through a MUCH more extensive vetting process involving the U.N. and multiple government agencies is allowing fear and ignorance to dictate(which when you break it down, is really what how our enemies operate). It is un-American not to allow these Syrian refugees an opportunity to go through an 18-24 month vetting process that will require a joint effort to deem them appropriate for the U.S., especially since many are women and orphans. The first line of acceptance/rejection will be if they don't have proper identification, but we don't really know the extent of this yet.
What is not an American value is to sink to levels that our enemies, that are so effective, to use fear and ignorance to compromise who we should be, a nation welcoming of all people, of all races, religions and ideas(as long as those match the fundamentals of our national integrity).
10,000 refugees. Not one of whom has been cleared by any government entity tasked with checking them and ensuring the safety of our country. And just exactly where are these people going to stay until they're cleared or not? And if they're not being housed, where are they going, and how do we monitor that? For 10,000 people? And if they are going to be housed somewhere, then where, and who is paying those expenses that would be incurred, to include housing, utilities, meals, and medical expenses? And again, with few to most likely no paper trails on these individuals to investigate, how do you deal with them then? Take them on their "word of honor"? Ha! Yeah........
And what happens if one or more just disappears? What then?
Some of them might actually tell the truth when being investigated. But most of them probably won't. But how are we to know if their stories and backgrounds cannot be thoroughly checked? We can't. And that is my whole point.......our families safety (yours, mine, and every other American) is at stake. And with the consequences for your family or mine being serious bodily injury and/or death, the risk far outweighs any reward.
I am not willing to risk one innocent American's life on this. Not anyone in my family, not anyone in your family, and not one other American either.
We do not view this situation the same way. In any manner whatsoever. So I'm just going to have to respectfully disagree with you, Stu. Without calling you idiotic like you did to me, and without saying that your argument is bs, like you did to me. Although we disagree, and can agree that we disagree, I respect your point of view, even if I don't agree with you.
If they can't be checked then I don't want them here. If they lied then I don't want them here. I don't care if they are Christian or Muslim or Jewish
Who is to say they aren't ISIS posing as Christians?
I dont have "plenty of muslim friends" but i did live across the street for 5 years from my neighbor the Egyptian muslim and his family. He had a wife and three daughters. He was a phd teaching at at the university, a good researcher, too. I guarantee you he thought of us Americans as unholy, infidel sybarites from whom he had to protect his female family members. sending his daughters to Public school was torture for him. Oldest daughter got near puberty and back to egypt they went. He told me he was going and why, and that it was over his wife and daughters objections. It is no doubt an exaggeration but my talks with him I always imagined them Off for clitoridectomies and black sackcloths over their heads or whatever that women's covering is called and marriages to old men. They oppose equality for women or gays or infidels. I enjoyed our neighborly discussions back in the early 90s as a glimpse of a world I didnt know. Now it all seems to be an impossible divide between enlightened western civilization and the darkness of stuck in the middle ages Islam. People who come to our country cant be allowed to use our culture against us.
I want to make sure something is clear. I respect all points of view, but I think it's fair for people to call out certain things that people say that have absolutely no basis in reality, where opinions are stated as fact. Anytime that happens, that statement should be called out. Isn't that why we debate?Quote:
Originally Posted by suncat05
Second, I did not intend(nor did I, at least I think) call you an idiot, and if I used the word idiotic, then that was an absolute error in my part and apologize if I did so, and it may have come from quick, distracted typing. What I did say and mean is ignorance. While that may seem like a harsh word, it's really not. It is not an implication of deeming anybody an ignorant person. Let's be honest here, very few of us have much insight to what is really happening in the world. We only see it through the lens for which we choose to view it. It makes us all ignorant to a certain degree.
The point that I try to make, and I must be doing it poorly, is there is WAY too much fear based talk going on, and I have a very difficult time understanding why. As a non-religious person, I can only come to the conclusion is that those that have faith need fear and that the two work together to influence and support ones own values. My faith is in people, but it's always conditional. My fears are minimal and tend to be science, factual and evidence based. Not to say that I am completely void of either emotion.
I live in a high crime city, but I have to live my life as I choose. I've watched terror plots foiled from my balcony, last night I watched a protest for a horrible incident, I have been a crime victim on numerous occasions(including getting punched by a cop on a routine traffic stop), I've had a friend that was raped, I've had friends that have been victims of hate crimes, over the course of my life(all in Kentucky, oddly enough), I've personally known 10 people(childhood/neighborhood friends, classmates convicted of murder(thankfully, never family or close friends, but victims that I have known). I lost colleagues from Cantor Fitzgerald in the 9/11 attacks. I've seen a lot, but I know that I will see more, and that doesn't scare me.
If I chose to live a life embracing fear, I would be much more scared of my city's propensity for crime, overzealous police, the FACT that I'm way more likely to be killed on our highways than by a terrorist attack, and many other things, but I'm not. What I do choose to do though, is put my "faith" into a system that works, although not perfect, that gives those that need the opportunities that our great country offers that is designed to protect us against those that want to do us harm.
I just don't get the irrational fears, and to me, that is a definition of ignorance. As the thread topic says, What am I missing here?
Stu, we're good. If we all agreed on everything, all of the time, what kind of a vanilla, bland, boring & dull world would we have? That wouldn't be any fun!
That's cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by suncat05
I know that I have a minority view here, but that's all good with me. I just try to bring the same approach as I do when I have heated debates with those on the left side of me too, that I tend to fall more in line with, but trust me, I have some totally different views.
I've made a lot of poor arguments in my day, done a lot of what I've accused others of doing, have done a lot of broad stroking and as I become more empathetic to other viewpoints, it really helps me grow as a person. I try to bring an approach that no matter what our beliefs, our race, our backgrounds, fears, prejudices etc that there is good and evil, and those good people tend to have a similar set of values for which they strive to live by. If we all step out of our comfort zones and try to find that in others, we may actually be able to solve problems. (Does that sound to liberal?)
A little similar to Cal saying servant leadership, I guess.
Have a nephew who served in Iraq and would take prisoners to Abu Gray prison and was present for quite a few interrogation's and lie detector tests given. Said rarely was one passed. As a whole nothing but thieves and liars.
Let them all of the Muslims into the country when they run out of room in the White House set up tents on the lawns inside the fences and barricades. Those who want them in the country can bring them into their households (once they are vetted by the FBI) and without government assistance take care of them. The family's that take them should be responsible for them and held accountable for their actions.
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