Citizen (anyone else) FFL/gun question

[kritikalcat]

I corrected what I believe is false info, but commonly held myth, on another site. Want some backup when challenged :-) or set me straight

GCA 68 prohibits an FFL from selling a handgun to someone under 21. Is there any FEDERAL (I don't care about state) law against someone under 21 (18-20 specifically) OWNING (possessing) a handgun if it was provided by a family member / bought in a private transaction?

I think this is one of those things like "it's against federal law to possess a firearm in a bank" - I'm pretty sure that it's NOT (provided it's not being carried with unlawful intent) but "everyone" thinks it is. I even remember a case in KY maybe 10-20 years ago where the President of a small town bank (and it wasn't even a federally chartered bank) shot a bank robber and some idiot Herald-Leader reporter asked if the Bank Pres. would be prosecuted for having a gun in the bank.

On either situation I want something from an FFL, LEO, or a cite to a statute. Not "I know" "you're wrong" :-)

[CitizenBBN]

Ooo, a great question dude.

It's an interesting question with a lot of confusion. Short answer is you are right, but with some significant qualifications everyone needs to know. Specifically people need to focus on the distinction you made in age range, not saying "under 21" but "between 18 and 21". That's important b/c the GCA separates the 21 year age limit on purchases from handgun ownership by juveniles and the GCA does in fact cover private transactions to and possession by juveniles.

Even though you excluded them, for purposes of thoroughness first let me establish the rules for juveniles, which is anyone under 18, not 21. For juveniles the GCA covers not just dealer sales, but all transfers and possession itself regardless of how the handgun may find its way to a person. I'll just cut and paste the relevant section:

§ 922 Unlawful acts.

(x) (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to
sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a
person who the transferor knows or has
reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for
use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person
who is a juvenile to knowingly possess—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for
use only in a handgun.
(3) This subsection does not apply
to—
(A) a temporary transfer of a
handgun or ammunition to a juvenile
or to the possession or use of a
handgun or ammunition by a juvenile
if the handgun and ammunition are
possessed and used by the juvenile—
(i) in the course of employment,
in the course of ranching or farming
related to activities at the residence
of the juvenile (or on
property used for ranching or farming
at which the juvenile, with the
permission of the property owner
or lessee, is performing activities
related to the operation of the farm
or ranch), target practice, hunting,
or a course of instruction in the
safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent
of the juvenile's parent or guardian
who is not prohibited by Federal,
State, or local law from possessing
a firearm, except—
(I) during transportation by the
juvenile of an unloaded handgun
in a locked container directly
from the place of transfer to a
place at which an activity described
in clause (i) is to take
place and transportation by the
juvenile of that handgun,
unloaded and in a locked container,
directly from the place at
which such an activity took place
to the transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or
farming activities as described in
clause (i), a juvenile may possess
and use a handgun or
ammunition with the prior written
approval of the juvenile's parent
or legal guardian and at the direction
of an adult who is not
prohibited by Federal, State or
local law from possessing a firearm;
(iii) the juvenile has the prior
written consent in the juvenile's
possession at all times when a
handgun is in the possession of
the juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State
and local law;
(B) a juvenile who is a member of
the Armed Forces of the United
States or the National Guard who
possesses or is armed with a handgun
in the line of duty;
(C) a transfer by inheritance of title
(but not possession) of a handgun or
ammunition to a juvenile; or
(D) the possession of a handgun
or ammunition by a juvenile taken in
defense of the juvenile or other persons
against an intruder into the
residence of the juvenile or a residence
in which the juvenile is an invited
guest.
(4) A handgun or ammunition, the
15
possession of which is transferred to a
juvenile in circumstances in which the
transferor is not in violation of this subsection
shall not be subject to permanent
confiscation by the Government if
its possession by the juvenile subsequently
becomes unlawful because of
the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be
returned to the lawful owner when such
handgun or ammunition is no longer required
by the Government for the purposes
of investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection,
the term "juvenile" means a person
who is less than 18 years of age.

So if you are under 18, you should never have a handgun in your possession except under the exceptions noted above in the GCA. It is also illegal for any private person to knowingly transfer a handgun to a juvenile, not just dealers. Even if a juvenile inherits a handgun he is not to have physical possession except as noted in the GCA. Essentially it allows temporary transfers for work on farms/ranches, for hunting or sporting/training use, but not permanent possession.

That covers 18 and under. If you are between 18 and 21 the GCA prevents any licensed dealer (manufacturer, importer etc) from transferring a handgun or "handgun ammunition":

922(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any
individual who the licensee knows or
has reasonable cause to believe is less
than eighteen years of age, and, if the
firearm or ammunition is other than a
shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a
shotgun or rifle, to any individual who
the licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe is less than twenty-one
years of age;

That's the GCA section. Here is a summary from the official ATF handbook given to dealers. A bit more "plain English" and covers the fairly humorous ammo problem:

3. FEDERAL AGE RESTRICTIONS
Federal law prohibits Federal firearms
licensees from selling or delivering any
firearm or ammunition to any individual
who the licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe is less than 18
years of age, and, if the firearm is other
than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition
for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual
who the licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe is less than 21
years of age. (18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27
CFR 478.99(b)(1).)

Ammunition interchangeable between
rifles and handguns (such as .22 caliber
rimfire) may be sold to an individual 18
years of age, but less than 21, if the
licensee is satisfied that the ammunition
is being acquired for use in a rifle.

Additionally, it generally is unlawful
for a person to transfer a handgun to a
juvenile (a person less than 18 years of
age) and it generally is unlawful for a
juvenile to possess a handgun. Exceptions
are provided for the transfer of a
handgun to and possession by a juvenile
for the purposes of employment,
ranching, farming, target practice or
hunting as provided for in 18 U.S.C.
922(x).

Pursuant to regulations at 27 CFR
478.103, ATF distributes posters to licensed
importers, manufacturers, and
dealers that caution against the transfer
of handguns to juveniles, as well as the
possession of handguns by juveniles, in
violation of 18 U.S.C. 922(x). The regulations
require licensees to display the
posters on their premises. Some licensees
erroneously interpreted the poster
to mean that that they may now lawfully
transfer handguns to any person over
17 years of age. Enactment of section
922(x) making it unlawful to sell handguns
to juveniles (persons under 18
years of age) and for juveniles to possess
handguns did not alter section
922(b)(1) of the GCA that continues to
prohibit licensees from transferring
handguns to persons under 21 years of
age.



So the summary of the law as I understand it (having read the GCA and the entire ATF Rules Handbook more than once but noting it's a convoluted document):

Private Transfers: AFAIK there is no restriction on private transactions selling a handgun to someone who is 18 or older. It is a GCA violation to sell or transfer a handgun on a non-excepted basis to a juvenile. Essentially you can loan them one for going hunting or working on a farm for safety, but you cannot permanently transfer one to their possession. it is also a violation for a private person to transfer "handgun ammo" to a juvenile, but as any person who knows guns know that's a gray area as few calibers are exclusively handgun or rifle. GCA says "only" re handgun ammo, but I wouldn't bet my life on such thin distinctions, esp. given how ATF advises dealers to handle it with a focus on intent of use.

Dealer transfers: Dealers are excluded re juveniles just as is a private person, but additionally dealers cannot sell or transfer handguns or handgun ammunition to anyone under 21 years of age. Ammo is determined by intent and declaration of the buyer ("is this going in a rifle or pistol young man?").

Handgun ownership: GCA specifically makes it illegal for a juvenile to possess a handgun except as a temporary event exempted in the GCA (hunting, farm use). there is no restriction on handgun ownership by anyone between 18 and 21 that I have seen or could find as I double checked the GCA just now.

So you are basically correct as I have read the law. A private person can sell/transfer a handgun to a 19 year old, a dealer can't. A person 18 or older can own a handgun, anyone under 18 cannot.
Glad you corrected them. There are a lot of myths about guns and gun laws out there. I run into a bunch of those mistaken views in the carry classes. People believing what some random guy told them and potentially committing a felony or, more common, limiting their rights unnecessarily by assuming they can't do something that is perfectly legal. Isn't it worth digging a little more?

In case it's useful, here's a link to the Guide, latest revision. it's 2005 with updates. http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Another useful link is an ATF faq on private transfers. It is consistent with the sections I cited, that it's generally illegal for even a parent to transfer a handgun to a minor. There is no mention of any 21 year age limit on private transfers on this page that I saw: http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons#parent-purchases

[kritikalcat]

Muchas gracias Citizen - actually the person I was correcting admitted I was right :-)

[CitizenBBN]

Little surprise. World class debaters do that to people. :) Did you go on to explain how life is like an ice cream cone? (Don't ask me why that popped into my head, it just did)

I've yet to understand why some laws and most certainly the anti-gun groups want to tie the dealer's hands and effectively drive transfers to private hands. I have zero against private transfers, but people who want everyone to have a background check should logically want to expand the role of dealers (who have to do the checks) to the exclusion of private transfers (who don't), yet dealers have premises restrictions and age restrictions that private owners don't, giving some advantages to private sellers and thus steering transactions away from having background checks performed.

Wouldn't it make more sense to allow dealers to sell to anyone 18 or older but restrict private sales to 21 years or more? You'd get a more regulated market with more background checks done on a higher risk group. Not saying I want more checks and a more regulated market, but if that is your goal then restricting the group that has to adhere to all the regulations from doing business is back asswards policy.

[suncat05]

kk-count on CBBN to get you the correct answer!
Check your PM's.

[kritikalcat]

Suncat - thanks

CBBN
* wasn't "life is like an ice cream cone" a Marek argument? I'm pretty sure that one came from my old partner.
* I'd guess that certain people would prefer to find a way to ban private sales (as an aside, registration and tracking seem to be the only semi-effective way you could police that) and drive sales to FFLs which could then be placed under ever tighter controls. Or maybe that's just paranoia ;-)
* Sending you a PM - "ran" into another old face