1.6 Billion Rounds Of Ammo For Homeland Security? Time For A National Conversation

[badrose]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2013/03/11/1-6-billion-rounds-of-ammo-for-homeland-security-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/

[T]he Department of Homeland Security is apparently taking delivery (apparently through the Marine Corps Systems Command, Quantico VA, via the manufacturer – Navistar Defense LLC) of an undetermined number of the recently retrofitted 2,717 ‘Mine Resistant Protected’ MaxxPro MRAP vehicles for service on the streets of the United States.”

These MRAP’s ARE BEING SEEN ON U.S. STREETS all across America by verified observers with photos, videos, and descriptions.”

Regardless of the exact number of MRAP’s being delivered to DHS (and evidently some to POLICE via DHS, as has been observed), why would they need such over-the-top vehicles on U.S. streets to withstand IEDs, mine blasts, and 50 caliber hits to bullet-proof glass? In a war zone… yes, definitely. Let’s protect our men and women. On the streets of America… ?”

[dan_bgblue]

We will see what kind of answer I get from my congressional delegation about any action on a national discussion of the purchases.

[KeithKSR]

Looks like our nanny state has an intent to keep everyone in check.

[CitizenBBN]

Looks like our nanny state has an intent to keep everyone in check.

A nanny who is amassing quite a collection of paddles.

Usually in novels it's call the "Ministry of Information" or some such. I like "Homeland Security" better for your internal security and repression entity, far more ironic than anything Orwell or Bradbury came up with in their works.

The closest anyone has come is the East German Stassi, which in full was the "Ministry for State Security". That still isn't as good, it's clearly the security of the government, where as "Homeland Security" sounds so earthy, protecting those waving fields of grain and purple mountains.

[jazyd]

Has anyone seen one of these things on te streets as reported. As much as I totally distrust this administration, I would like to see proof of this with pictures of them on the streets

[CitizenBBN]

Has anyone seen one of these things on te streets as reported. As much as I totally distrust this administration, I would like to see proof of this with pictures of them on the streets

I dunno Jazy, I don't think I want to see one in person. ;)

J/K, I know what you're saying. I don't even point to Obama on this one. This is about creating a new bureaucracy. A bureaucracy is a soulless but living entity that follows very repeatable patterns of behavior. It's primary function is to grow and expand, and for Homeland Security that means growing into civilian security far beyond just worrying about terrorists. That's really what worries me, far more than specific hardware or bullets. if they do start working as a single security agency with more focused purpose, rather than 15 or so agencies all operating separately in an uncoordinated fashion, then I'm going to worry.

Power corrupts, and Homeland Security has a great deal of power.

I would like to see documentation, but just b/c they aren't out there doesn't mean they aren't being acquired. I'd go to Snopes but since they're backed by Soros I don't consider them a qualified source on these kinds of things.

[dan_bgblue]

jazy, I have not and do not expect to. I surmise they will be seen in large population centers. I have my own reasons for thinking they may be needed there, but it is only my musings

[KeithKSR]

Has anyone seen one of these things on te streets as reported. As much as I totally distrust this administration, I would like to see proof of this with pictures of them on the streets

1744

Check out the paint job.

[CitizenBBN]

jazy, I have not and do not expect to. I surmise they will be seen in large population centers. I have my own reasons for thinking they may be needed there, but it is only my musings

Man I wish my ammo order would get here. That and my spam.

[jazyd]

Thanks Keith. Now I can understand border control and immigration but "police and rescue", what police and what rescue?




1744

Check out the paint job.

[suncat05]

Thanks Keith. Now I can understand border control and immigration but "police and rescue", what police and what rescue?

All of the I.C.E. agents are considered to be federal police officers. At least that's what the ones I know and deal with have told me. They all have jackets that say "I.C.E.- Police" on the back. Federal agents, Federal police officers, same same.
Back when the DHS was established I was not enamored with the idea, and I am even less so now. Too many chiefs, and not anywhere near the amount of accountability that needs to be in play with this monolith.
This is one of the things "W" got wrong, and in a big way. That, and there should have been a Congressional Declaration of War over the events of 9-11.

[dan_bgblue]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/25/reps-challenge-dhs-ammo-buys-say-agency-using-1000-more-rounds-per-person-than/?intcmp=HPBucket

[CitizenBBN]

Thanks Dan.

They're right, at some point it's not just a conspiracy issue but a question of fiscal responsibility. DHS now saying it's more like 750 million rounds and not 1.6 billion, but their estimate given in response to the initial accusations have changed more than once. It's hard b/c the media can cut the statements so I can't put it all on DHS, but at times they've not denied the 1.6 billion number, at times have denied it.

At least having to talk to the House and not just issue a press statement they'll have to be a bit more careful about how they answer such questions.

the department currently has more than 260 million rounds in stock. He said the department bought more than 103 million rounds in 2012 and used 116 million that same year -- among roughly 70,000 agents.



That's shooting about 1,600 rounds per agent per year for practice. I won't say that's "excessive", but it's on the high end of what little I know of firearms training. What I find interesting is they have about 3,700 rounds per agent in current inventory. Is that high? Were there a real crisis I don't want our LEOs to have an ammo shortage, but I'm betting again that they're on the high end of most LEO entities. I know by my personal measure 3,700 rounds is a pretty good ammo supply.

Issa is pretty sharp, and he's right to ask if this ammo is being consumed in proper training or being consumed in a more haphazard way. That's just good government oversight beyond any conspiracy theories. If nothing else he's right to ask what number is the actual number, the 1.6 billion or some other number.

I'd have to go back and search but iirc DHS has quoted different numbers of agents as well, which is probably whether they include different agencies. The 1.6 billion could be a correct number but for more agents, but they want to show a different and smaller number in response to these questions.


Oh, one thing to defend DHS -- comparing the entity to the Army isn't apples and oranges. The DHS doesn't have such a massive number of people dedicated to non-combat (or non-LEO) roles as the military. The Army will use a lot fewer rounds per soldier total b/c many soldiers do little actual shooting of weapons. However it is a starting point where we can adjust for the number of troops the Pentagon trains as "combat ready" versus support troops who may not train as much with weapons, and seeing how the more refined Pentagon number compares to ammo consumption by DHS. I'm just not clear they've refined those numbers at this point.

[dan_bgblue]

I do not know if the number is high or not, but they fired off about 300 rounds trying to capture 2 civilians in Boston. I do not think all the practice is working very well.

[CitizenBBN]

I do not know if the number is high or not, but they fired off about 300 rounds trying to capture 2 civilians in Boston. I do not think all the practice is working very well.

lol. It is stunning how bad some people are despite practice. I'm with Issa, I want to know how many rounds are being expended in formal practice, just to get a feel for whether this is a high level of training (which is fine and good) or is just government waste.