Taliban Seize Kandahar, Prepare to March on Afghan Capital Kabul

[dan_bgblue]

The scenes of triumphant Taliban fighters conquering city after city, amassing vast arsenals of Western-supplied weapons, have unnerved many of America’s allies. In an unusual criticism of the U.S., U.K. Defense Secretary Ben Wallace described the Doha agreement in a Sky News interview as “a rotten deal” that “effectively told a Taliban that wasn’t winning that they were winning.”

“We will all, in the international community, probably pay the consequences of that,” he added.

I am sure the international community will be offering Sleepy a pat on the back for his foreign relations abilities.

Wall Street Journal (https://www.wsj.com/articles/taliban-seize-kandahar-prepare-to-march-on-kabul-11628846975)

[bigsky]

Joe’s Jimmy Carter moment is coming.

[CitizenBBN]

This is a debacle. It couldn't have been handled worse.

Once again proving that if the US shows up, do NOT cooperate with us. We will leave you high and dry an sell you out.

[catmanjack]

This clown is a complete joke!

[dan_bgblue]

This is a debacle. It couldn't have been handled worse.

Once again proving that if the US shows up, do NOT cooperate with us. We will leave you high and dry an sell you out.

Sleepy's press conference, where he read the answer to the softball, pre-planned question, laid all the blame in the lap of the Afghan government. He read a list of all the things and all the money the US had provided them in the last 20 years, and then went a bit off script, looked at the camera and said, and I paraphrase here, only way they were ever going to solve their plight was to stand on their own hind legs and negotiate and or fight on their own.

[bigsky]

At least our generals are “woke af” tho…

[Doc]

This is a debacle. It couldn't have been handled worse.

Once again proving that if the US shows up, do NOT cooperate with us. We will leave you high and dry an sell you out.

I disagree. He could have handle it worse. It would have taken an effort but with Biden, I'm never shocked by how bad it could be.

[Doc]

Sleepy's press conference, where he read the answer to the softball, pre-planned question, laid all the blame in the lap of the Afghan government. He read a list of all the things and all the money the US had provided them in the last 20 years, and then went a bit off script, looked at the camera and said, and I paraphrase here, only way they were ever going to solve their plight was to stand on their own hind legs and negotiate and or fight on their own.

What, he didn't blame Trump, Covid or the "insurrectionist/GOP"?

[Catonahottinroof]

To be fair about it, Trump wanted the troops out of there too…..

What, he didn't blame Trump, Covid or the "insurrectionist/GOP"?

[CitizenBBN]

To be fair about it, Trump wanted the troops out of there too…..

Yes, but stood down on doing it in this hasty fashion.

I'm for leaving too, but to do it this way, leaving materials behind and insuring the Taliban victory with the abrupt way it was done, is a debacle.

And the media was all over Trump for even proposing that move. They're silent on Biden actually doing it, and more hastily than even Trump proposed.

[suncat05]

Sleepy joe just assured the American people that he doesn't give two hot squats about anyone in the U.S. or Afghanistan.

And he just set the stage for another vicious 9-11 type attack on the U.S. by every terrorist enemy of the U.S. Because again, he doesn't care. He's the reincarnation of "Jimma" Carter and his stupidity in the foreign policy department.

But Ol' Joe and his ilk will get richer off of the money they'll make in the next coming war he'll get us embroiled in. Just wait for it..........:banghead:

[Doc]

To be fair about it, Trump wanted the troops out of there too…..

To be fair, I and most Americans wanted our troops out of there. And to be fair, most American would have done it in a slow and responsible manner.

But then a "fair" attitude is seldom applied in politics. How fair was the criticism of the last administration?

[Catonahottinroof]

Nothing about it was fair Doc. However, the same end was achieved no matter who is in the White House at this point.
To be fair, I and most Americans wanted our troops out of there. And to be fair, most American would have done it in a slow and responsible manner.

But then a "fair" attitude is seldom applied in politics. How fair was the criticism of the last administration?

[VirginiaCat]

I honestly do not blame sleepy joe. He is not calling the shots. I blame the generals who had to know the Afghan troops would fold like a flat sheet.

Biden is Carter the 2nd. Runaway inflation, terrible foreign relations, and now a military debacle.

[Doc]

Kabal falls.


Reminds me of April 30th 1975

[Padukacat]

This was going to happen at some point, no pretty way to do it and one of those we should have never been there moments...again.

[CitizenBBN]

This was going to happen at some point, no pretty way to do it and one of those we should have never been there moments...again.

Could have been handled way better than this, and we missed opportunities to set up more stable regimes under multiple Administrations.

[catmanjack]

It will be ok until America is hit again or Russia tries to invade their country.

[Catfan73]

To be fair about it, Trump wanted the troops out of there too…..

And let 5,000 hardcore Taliban be released from prison, including the now president, in exchange for a three month ceasefire. They’re now rampaging and murdering.

[catmanjack]

Hell that sounds like Seattle, Chicago, San Francisco, Portland and Louisville!

[dan_bgblue]

Obituary for Afghanistan (https://www.nysun.com/editorials/obituary-for-afghanistan/91620/)

Wall Street Journal has several articles on the Afghanistan DEBACLE (https://www.wsj.com/?mod=nav_top_section)

[Doc]

And let 5,000 hardcore Taliban be released from prison, including the now president, in exchange for a three month ceasefire. They’re now rampaging and murdering.

When in doubt, blame Trump??? Wonder how many of those 5 POW who were returned to Afganistan in the Bergdhal trade are leading this? Or does that not matter

The Taliban lived up to their end of the agreement (link (https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/567924-pompeo-says-trump-administration-didnt-take-the-words-of-taliban)) and had they not there would have been repercussions. Joe Biden and his administration have elected not to continue to enforce those. It fall 100% on him, not Trump. Biden has also put forth the theory that because Trump wanted to withdraw, Biden had no option but to continue it. WHAT A JOKE. Nearly every single Trump policy was reversed by Biden on Day 1, so please, cut with the Trump did this BULL####


This falls 100% at the feet of Biden. I was all for getting out of the Middle East. But I was all for doing it logically and safely. Not just for the safety of Americans but also for the Afganies who helped us. We left them cold. The last time I saw a move this chicken **** was when Jim Irsay took the Baltimore Colts to Indy in the middle of the night. And to top it off, he went to INDY, which is only a slightly better place than Kubal Afganistan!!!

[dan_bgblue]

And to top it off, he went to INDY, which is only a slightly better place than Kubal Afganistan!!!

:eclipsee_Victoria: :trink39:

[CitizenBBN]

Leon Panetta, Obama's Sec. of Defense, called this Biden's "Bay of Pigs" moment.

When numerous former Obama era people are calling this a debacle, it's a debacle.

[Catfan73]

When in doubt, blame Trump??? Wonder how many of those 5 POW who were returned to Afganistan in the Bergdhal trade are leading this? Or does that not matter

The Taliban lived up to their end of the agreement (link (https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/567924-pompeo-says-trump-administration-didnt-take-the-words-of-taliban)) and had they not there would have been repercussions. Joe Biden and his administration have elected not to continue to enforce those. It fall 100% on him, not Trump. Biden has also put forth the theory that because Trump wanted to withdraw, Biden had no option but to continue it. WHAT A JOKE. Nearly every single Trump policy was reversed by Biden on Day 1, so please, cut with the Trump did this BULL####


This falls 100% at the feet of Biden. I was all for getting out of the Middle East. But I was all for doing it logically and safely. Not just for the safety of Americans but also for the Afganies who helped us. We left them cold. The last time I saw a move this chicken **** was when Jim Irsay took the Baltimore Colts to Indy in the middle of the night. And to top it off, he went to INDY, which is only a slightly better place than Kubal Afganistan!!!

Oh it definitely could have been handled a whole lot better. But the blame obviously doesn’t lie solely at Biden’s feet.

[bigsky]

Famous Harry Truman words, on dropping of A bomb, “FDR made me do it”.

I’ve read Harry Truman. I admire Harry Truman. Surrender Joe is no Harry Truman

[CitizenBBN]

Exclusive photos of Biden's address today on Afghanistan (can't call it a press conference if no one is going to ask real questions):

https://mapesbankruptcyattorneys.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/automotivator_remain-calm-1380645949.jpg

Apparently we're having an orderly, well run evacuation of Kabul.

After which he, seriously, got back on Marine One and back to Camp David.

I'd blame Biden but since I know he doesn't make many of his own decisions, I blame the puppeteers who are running this country.

[Doc]

Oh it definitely could have been handled a whole lot better. But the blame obviously doesn’t lie solely at Biden’s feet.

The blame for Afghanistan? Nope. More falls on Bush

The blame for how the withdraw was handled is totally on Biden....100%

[VirginiaCat]

Oh it definitely could have been handled a whole lot better. But the blame obviously doesn’t lie solely at Biden’s feet.

Yes, it does. He is POTUS. He could have changed any policy as he has proven since Jan. This is his debacle. But, so has every otheer freaking thing he has done in 7 months.

[Catonahottinroof]

Nothing about leaving there was going to be pleasant. However, members of this admin including Biden himself said this wouldn’t be like Vietnam where rescues from the roof of the embassy would be necessary.
It was worse, in fact. Our own people couldn’t get out of the country before this happened.
The execution of the exit is Biden’s fail. His own words weeks before say so too.

[suncat05]

Leon Panetta, Obama's Sec. of Defense, called this Biden's "Bay of Pigs" moment.

When numerous former Obama era people are calling this a debacle, it's a debacle.

And they would certainly know.

[dan_bgblue]

Afghanistan's female footballers make tearful calls for help (https://www.foxnews.com/sports/afghanistans-female-footballers-make-tearful-calls-for-help)

[bigsky]

And they would certainly know. and jimmy carter says hi!

[Doc]

Afghanistan's female footballers make tearful calls for help (https://www.foxnews.com/sports/afghanistans-female-footballers-make-tearful-calls-for-help)

Stark difference between the USA women football players (soccer) and those in Afganistan. One is fighting for their lives, the other so cake decorators have to provide their services for their weddings.

[CitizenBBN]

Stark difference between the USA women football players (soccer) and those in Afganistan. One is fighting for their lives, the other so cake decorators have to provide their services for their weddings.

My single biggest issue with Leftists is their "hate America first" stance when they clearly have no idea how good people have it in America, and even more clearly have no clue how this country went from a backwater escape for the persecuted to this level of wealth. It wasn't through socialism and social justice, if any of them are reading and need a hint.

No nation is not perfect and we have work to do, but empirically we know the way to go at those problems is with the free market and liberty, not by emulating totalitarianism with a faux sense of benevolence.

[catmanjack]

Exactly let them move to these countries and lose all their perks and livelihood and stop trying to ruin America!

[bigsky]

Yes citizen, “hate america first” is the watchphrase of the current revolution

[CitizenBBN]

McConnell reporting as many as 15,000 Americans are still in the country, now at the Taliban's mercy.

They have gotten our weapons, ammunition, and even money.

BTW, in the last year there were zero American military deaths in Afghanistan, and operations there were 1% of our defense budget.

Yes we were there for 20 years, but the cost to do so in lives and treasure was small to keep the nation from being a threat.

I don't think many Americans wanted to be there forever, but withdrawing like this has been a complete disaster.

My God, people died clinging to our planes as they fell, and were crushed by the wheels going up. It is absolutely Saigon and the Bay of Pigs all over again, full stop. Easily one of the worst American political foreign policy failures of the last century.

Even if we get all Americans out, which is unlikely, we'll never save all our allies. May God have mercy on the pain our soldiers will have from leaving their allies and even friends behind in this manner. Imagine the guilt those pilots and crew must feel, even though they were following orders.

All of this effort has been a failure. A failure of more Pentagon and White House brass going back 20 years that is more interested in DC cocktail parties than in going in country and getting a solution. Just like Vietnam.

But the worst of all of these failures is on biden. At least in Afghanistan the cost in men and money was relatively small, tiny in fact compared to Vietnam. We lose more soldiers to training accidents than we were losing in Afghanistan, and now thousands of Afganis and mostly likely some Americans will die, and the Taliban and Islamist terrorism gets a MASSIVe shot in the arm in PR, morale, money and materials.

I thought the height of US supporting of terrorism came with Obama sending billions in unmarked bills to Iran on pallets. I was wrong.

[bigsky]

The same people are in charge of our economy, the southern “border”, our freedom, the federal budget, etc.

[CitizenBBN]

The same people are in charge of our economy, the southern “border”, our freedom, the federal budget, etc.

Yep. Geraldo funny enough said it best:

Instead, Rivera pointed to "self-important, Ivy [League] a----".

That sums it up well. The "elites" who run this country are inexperienced, coddled ivy league know it alls who have no idea how this country really runs or how the rest of the world really works. They sit around pontificating beautiful theories of socialism and foreign policy which sound great and are abysmal failures.

[catmanjack]

Really have to fear the open border now even more with the taliban in full control.
It’s just a matter of time before the full regret is in plain view.
Not sure America will ever recover with this clown in charge.
So I really want to thank all those democrats out there that keep voting these clowns into office from the president to the senators.

[dan_bgblue]

I don't think many Americans wanted to be there forever, but withdrawing like this has been a complete disaster.

Americans have tolerated having occupied military bases in South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Germany, etc for 75 years. Having a few thousand troops in Afghanistan for another 50 years would be a small price to pay to protect us and the natives from the Taliban, China, Russia, and Pakistan.

[suncat05]

Biden = Obama. Same same. No difference, not even in the amount of ineptitude.

[CitizenBBN]

Americans have tolerated having occupied military bases in South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Germany, etc for 75 years. Having a few thousand troops in Afghanistan for another 50 years would be a small price to pay to protect us and the natives from the Taliban, China, Russia, and Pakistan.

exactly. We're in Korea 30,000 strong so the NK doesn't invade. We're in Eastern Europe now so Russia doesn't invade.

There were very minimal US casualties in Afghanistan the last several years in fact. We had more deaths from accidents by far than from combat. While one is too many, compared to our operations elsewhere Afghanistan had actually been fairly stable the last few years.

That's not to say I wanted to stay forever, but if the choice was to hand the country to the Taliban and, by proxy, our larger enemies, or stay, then we don't have much choice but to stay.

The failure of the last 20 years to build a regime in the region that would be a stable ally is the problem, but such may not be possible there.

But regardless everyone should agree this withdrawal was one of the worst handled Us operations in history. It's Vietnam run at 10x speed.

[KeithKSR]

The same people are in charge of our economy, the southern “border”, our freedom, the federal budget, etc.

And the pandemic, which is the song that never ends.

[KeithKSR]

Really have to fear the open border now even more with the taliban in full control.
It’s just a matter of time before the full regret is in plain view.
Not sure America will ever recover with this clown in charge.
So I really want to thank all those democrats out there that keep voting these clowns into office from the president to the senators.

It’s hard to say how many terrorists had entered through the Southern border before Afghanistan fell to the Taliban.

[catmanjack]

A lot more will now for sure.

[TRUCKERCATFAN]

The most powerful military on the planet is being run out of Afghanistan by a bunch of goat herders/sheep f**kers. Sad.

[catmanjack]

That’s what happens when your leader is bozo the clowns brother!

[Padukacat]

This isnt meant to start any political fights or backing one party over the other, and i agree that Biden and our current leaders obviously botched this exit, but i dont think there was a good way to exit without this happening. Now in regard to getting people out, definitely that part falls squarely on current leaders. how do they screw that up so bad. they just thought the taliban would gradually take control after 20 years of hiding in the hills? dumb. back to my original question though, leaving afghanistan seemed to be a bipartisan decision and one that Trump really keyed in on and he sat a hard date to leave which was earlier, would not the same thing have happened (other than maybe he got everyone out first). Why didnt Trump want to keep troops over there since the cost was low and it is a cheap price to pay for peace of mind from terrorist. Not political here, just an educational question as i use you guys to shape my opinion on many things.

Honestly i always agreed with Trump on this, that the endless war over there is not worth fighting on our dime because its been going on since the end of time so i supported the withdrawl on the surface. That being said, im not much of an expert on the matters and have just been reading about foreign affairs the past few years.

[Doc]

This isnt meant to start any political fights or backing one party over the other, and i agree that Biden and our current leaders obviously botched this exit, but i dont think there was a good way to exit without this happening. Now in regard to getting people out, definitely that part falls squarely on current leaders. how do they screw that up so bad. they just thought the taliban would gradually take control after 20 years of hiding in the hills? dumb. back to my original question though, leaving afghanistan seemed to be a bipartisan decision and one that Trump really keyed in on and he sat a hard date to leave which was earlier, would not the same thing have happened (other than maybe he got everyone out first). Why didnt Trump want to keep troops over there since the cost was low and it is a cheap price to pay for peace of mind from terrorist. Not political here, just an educational question as i use you guys to shape my opinion on many things.

Honestly i always agreed with Trump on this, that the endless war over there is not worth fighting on our dime because its been going on since the end of time so i supported the withdrawl on the surface. That being said, im not much of an expert on the matters and have just been reading about foreign affairs the past few years.

A good way out? No
A better way out? Absolutely

You first maintain Bagram base and use it over the civilian airport. The idea to abandon that was moronic. Next you get the nonmilitary out under the protection of the military. That includes US citizens and Afghanistan who have assisted us, and leave a bare minimum of support. Then you clear the munitions so they don't fall into Taliban hands. To me this is the biggest debacle of the Biden plan. We have armed the Taliban. How stupid can you be. All this time you are preparing to leave by destroying intel.

Then and only then do you remove the military, but leave behind a force large enough to support the Afghanistan government and maintain peace. But if you want 100% withdrawl, fine. Expect the Taliban to move quickly.

Instead we did it backwards. We gave up the secure airfield and pulled the military, leaving the weapons of war and a large group of Americans. Now I have less sympathy for those trapped as they knew this was coming so I would have exited far sooner.

And yes, Trump too wanted out. Most Americans wanted us out. But what Trump would not have done, nor do most citizens wanted, was a tuck your tails and run, every man for himself chaotic cluster#### that Joe Biden orchestrated

And one other thing....Trump would have held those who screwed up accountable. He was often criticized for his habit of firing, or requesting resignations, of staffers who failed him. In this Afghanistan debacle, I expect nobody to lose their job. Nobody will be held accountable for their poor decisions and advice. Good thing about being a gov't employee, competency is not a job requirement

[catmanjack]

It’s the overall failures under this leadership that has to or should be a red flag to each and every American no matter if they are Republican or Democrats.
This leadership has America in full free fall and warning signs going off everywhere!

[CitizenBBN]

This isnt meant to start any political fights or backing one party over the other, and i agree that Biden and our current leaders obviously botched this exit, but i dont think there was a good way to exit without this happening. Now in regard to getting people out, definitely that part falls squarely on current leaders. how do they screw that up so bad. they just thought the taliban would gradually take control after 20 years of hiding in the hills? dumb. back to my original question though, leaving afghanistan seemed to be a bipartisan decision and one that Trump really keyed in on and he sat a hard date to leave which was earlier, would not the same thing have happened (other than maybe he got everyone out first). Why didnt Trump want to keep troops over there since the cost was low and it is a cheap price to pay for peace of mind from terrorist. Not political here, just an educational question as i use you guys to shape my opinion on many things.

Honestly i always agreed with Trump on this, that the endless war over there is not worth fighting on our dime because its been going on since the end of time so i supported the withdrawl on the surface. That being said, im not much of an expert on the matters and have just been reading about foreign affairs the past few years.

There are two questions:

1) Do we leave or stay, knowing the regime will collapse an the Taliban will take over?

2) How do we leave so as to secure the safest exit and transfer the least wealth and material to the Taliban?


The first question is the same under Biden or Trump. The second question is all on Biden.

Most Americans wanted to leave. Even More would have wanted us to not pull out troops before up to 15,000 Americans were also out and maybe 20,000-50,000 Afghani allies.

We can debate if Biden and/or Trump should have reassessed given the results of Trumps deal, b/c over the last year we had no combat deaths, and were holding the country with relatively small number of troops. If that stalemate could have held that's not exactly a "war" any more, and introducing that option into the polls I'm betting a lot of Americans would take that third option where the Taliban doesn't get the country back but we aren't losing American lives to prevent it.

But there is no debate the way this exit was done was a debacle, and it's coming out from the Pentagon that it was at least in part b/c Biden but hard limits on the number of troops they could use to secure the country until the exit was done. The statement yesterday was that the military abadoned Bagram b/c Biden wouldn't approve enough troops to hold it during this transition.

They are throwing Biden under the bus, blaming him for the lack of military strategy to execute the withdrawal. If they're telling the truth then this is completely on his administration.

This is shameful. We can debate if leaving at this point is also shameful, but the execution of the withdrawal has to be one of the worst US political and military failures outside of notable WWII defeats of the last century. It's not OK to just blame a POTUS who isn't even in office when something this monumental happens, and that's true regardless of who is POTUS.

This level of policy is clearly on whoever is in charge as he's been in charge more than long enough for the evacuation to be his plan and have full control over it.

[Doc]

I want to add that us leaving the people of Afghanistan like we did is reprehensible. The majority of the people of Afghanistan have not lived under the Taliban rule as most of the citizens were born AFTER the USA interceded. The narrative that this is what they are accustomed to is false. They are used to a fairly peaceful country. And the idea that the USA military can not get these refugees out is 100% on the current administration. Send a smart bomb into the royal palace and kill a bunch of Taliban leadership. Then promise to do so each and every day unless they allow all those who want to leave out. The idea that the USA is impotent to do anything is laughable.

Of course the other option is to send them (the Taliban) a plane loaded with cash in return for letting those stuck in Afghanistan out. It is a tried and true option employed by Obama/Biden in the past. Maybe throw in few "goat wifes" to sweeten the deal.

[Doc]

And can Biden learn how to pronounce Taliban? Its not TOLLY-BON. Granted, it is how Obama pronounced it but that does not make it right. Given his propensity to plagiarize, next Biden will start on POCKEY-STON and ISIL.

The entire interpreter situation reminds me of the movie The Killing Fields (one of the great tear jerker movies ever)

[Darryl]

I haven’t noticed that many liberals posting on this thread.

Odd….

Darryl

[catmanjack]

Should be embarrassed.

[catmanjack]

That they voted this clown into office!

[CitizenBBN]

I told everyone Biden was an idiot, not that it really needed to be told. Not "he's an idiot" like people say about every candidate, but a guy who for 40 years has shown a complete lack of understanding of policy.

So far the response is clear: Biden and initially his handlers thought this would all just blow over the way the media has covered for him on everything else in his career.

I'm sure they are stunned to see even their staunchest propaganda agents start to ask real questions, and call him out for the damage that has been done, the lack of any response, and him ducking the media and everyone else in response.

We've doomed at least some of our citizens and many allies to death, created trauma for many more that will last their entire lives, and sentenced untold hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children in Afghanistan to abuse, repression, torture and even death.

At least the abandonment of our citizens and allies was totally unnecessary even if we withdrew, simply by doing it with even the most basic level of intelligence.

But there is no defense of this debacle, and everyone knows it. Even the McCains have now abandoned him and questioned whether he should be removed from office at this point, and they were on his damned transition team.

[Doc]

I haven’t noticed that many liberals posting on this thread.

Odd….

Darryl

Not really. They spent 4 years telling us what a liar and idiot Trump was/is. Not to mention his failing on controlling COVID (because Joe has done so much better!). I recall liberals claiming Trump alienated and offended out allies, and how embarrassed they were over that.

But apparently they and vampires share a common trait.... mirrors do work

[Doc]

The most gut wrenching, and frankly embarrassing image thus far is the [Harry Bellefonte voice on]Tally-bon [[/Harry Bellefonte voice off]mocking the Iwo Jima image. I sure hope this is a central image theme in the next GOP election campaign, along with the images of the Afghanistan refugees falling off plane landing gear.

[bigsky]

Most unfortunate, Doc. But the woke military under Surrender Joe is fair game and, aside from the abandonment of our Afghan allies the worst result of his decisions.

[KeithKSR]

I put this entire debacle on the media and those that voted for Biden. If they didn’t see something like this coming from a guy suffering from dementia then they didn’t want to see it.

[Catfan73]

Some tidbits some of you guys may not be aware of or might have forgotten:

It was Trump, not Biden that negotiated directly with the Taliban and excluded the Afghan government.

It was Trump, not Biden that arranged for the release of 5,000 Taliban from prison.

It was Trump, not Biden that wanted to invite the Taliban to Camp David on the anniversary of 9-11.

It was Trump, not Biden that refused to brief the incoming administration on the Afghan situation.

It was Trump, not Biden that boasted he didn’t need an exit strategy in Afghanistan.

It was Trump, not Biden that boasted the troop withdrawal he set in motion could not be stopped.

[CitizenBBN]

lol.

So does that excuse this debacle? Biden could do nothing to stop it? Nothing to address it now? It's all good, right?

Here's the thing. Saying Trump failed in Afghanistan doesn't mean it's OK that Biden has disasterously failed in Afghanistan.

Also, in the time since Trumps deal, the US had no losses (or maybe 1) to combat deaths in the past year. So it's not looking like that was a horrible deal. Things had actually stabilized at least during that time period.

Had Trump overseen this disaster I would be yelling for his head, and I'm fine to assess blame on Trump as well as Obama and Bush II for the failures of Afghanistan.

But this implementation is completely on Biden, as he absolutely could have ordered more troops to hold the country, reorganized the withdrawal, held Bagram AFB, etc. that was all on him, b/c his team thought the government would hold. They were deeply wrong, and now that's on him. Had Trump made the same call then it would be on him.

Confirmation bias. It's sure a popular thing to have these days.

[catmanjack]

Really, you want to support this guy?

Some tidbits some of you guys may not be aware of or might have forgotten:

It was Trump, not Biden that negotiated directly with the Taliban and excluded the Afghan government.

It was Trump, not Biden that arranged for the release of 5,000 Taliban from prison.

It was Trump, not Biden that wanted to invite the Taliban to Camp David on the anniversary of 9-11.

It was Trump, not Biden that refused to brief the incoming administration on the Afghan situation.

It was Trump, not Biden that boasted he didn’t need an exit strategy in Afghanistan.

It was Trump, not Biden that boasted the troop withdrawal he set in motion could not be stopped.

[Catfan73]

Sorry if I caused any cognitive dissonance. I’ll shut up.

[CitizenBBN]

Sorry if I caused any cognitive dissonance. I’ll shut up.

Uh no. You didn't. You just can't see past the glasses.

FWIW I disagreed with Trumps approach in Afghanistan in several ways, though I did support having some kind of negotiated settlement or at least stalemate.

None of that changes the way the withdrawal has been handled, and the blame should be on whoever oversaw it. None of Trumps mistakes or Obama's mistakes or BUsh II's mistakes somehow abrogates Biden's responsibility for limiting US troops in such a way that they couldn't defend Bagram, didn't have time to destroy our weapons and facilities, didn't have a clue what was going to happen to the Afghan government, and didn't have any movement ahead of time to remove our citizens and allies.

The Pentagon has said outright that Biden limited how many troops they could have in country for the operation, so they couldn't hold Bagram. It's an extremely well fortified facility that would be ideal for this operation, but is large, and Biden wouldn't OK enough troops to staff it per the Pentagon. Is that on Trump too?

Biden just yesterday gave a horribly flippant answer to a reporter about what to do with Americans remaining in Afghanistan. So bad his staff cut off the microphone. that's being reported by the ABC correspondent, not Fox News. Is Trump responsible for Biden's horrible, horrible response to this unfolding disaster?

As the government fell it was clear what was happening. Is it on Trump that Biden refused to change direction or adjust to the changing conditions at all? that he stuck to a plan that clearly was falling apart within 1-2 days of happening? It took 11 days for Kabul to fall, plenty long enough for any POTUS to see the unfolding collapse, and then do something about it.

Is it now Trump's fault that Biden refused to change course and address the problem, even if the direction was set by Trump? He's had no problem reversing Trump on the border problem, but his hands were tied as Commander in Chief in Afghanistan?

Deflecting on this is just wrong, and frankly discouraging.

Trump had tons of flaws. We just elected a man so bad we have to find ways to still discuss Trump, so what does that say about Biden?

I'm well aware of Trump's flaws. Are you now seeing Bidens? If not then the dissonance is yours.

[Catonahottinroof]

The populace agreed with Trump, and Biden to get out of dodge there. They are having a huge issue with the execution though.

[catmanjack]

What has Biden executed well? Please anyone name one thing?

[CitizenBBN]

The populace agreed with Trump, and Biden to get out of dodge there. They are having a huge issue with the execution though.

B/c no sane person would agree to "we're going to leave Afghanistan, but we're going to so in a way that we pull out almost all of our troops first, leaving 15,000 or so Americans and 20-50K Afghan allies to basically catch as catch can, and we're going to leave several million metric tons of materials, equipment and supplies behind as well.

This was done on a shoestring, and done on a timeline the US military could never meet with the troops that were approved.

Any right thinking person would think we would either destroy or remove any equipment that was not being used by the Afghan military, that most all of our citizens and allies who wanted to leave would be long gone before we began scaling back the actual troops, and that it would be a staged withdrawal to make sure the Afghan government was able to maintain some kind of rule.

We should have started by ceding sections of the country over to Afghani control and oversight, and if those fell we would have an obvious answer as to the situation.

This was done completely back asswards. We left all at once basically, hoping the Afghan army would then fight. We didn't leave enough troops to either oversee the withdrawal OR to respond in case the situation went south quickly as it did.

It is the definition of "flatfooted".

Biden is saying we will hunt down these terrorists. How exactly? we don't control Bagram Air Base, so we have no base of operations in the country. None. We didn't do like we did in Korea where we established a govenrment but also kept a presence, or in Japan. No we are pulling out EVERYONE, and closing the embassy. There is no way to then go in and hunt down these terrorists.

And now NO ONE in Afghansitan, or much of anywhere else, is going to help us, b/c we left our Afghan allies, hundreds of thousands of women, and even our NATO allies absolutely hung out to dry.

Hell, we didn't even coordinate this with the British and other nations with troops there, who had no choice but to pull back. Go read British media sources on this debacle. Parlaiment called an emergency session.

People think Trump undermined NATO an our alliances? He didn't leave NATO and allied troops to fend for themselves as terrorists came over the hill.

No sane person, presented with a poll question "do we leave Afghanistan",, would have said "yes" if the rest of that question described the way we are now leaving. Americans want their troops home and to stop being the world's policeman, but they would never agree to this disaster and they would never agree to abandoning Americans and our allies in such a stark and incompetent fashion.

And Biden's answer so far has been to shrug, make snarky remarks and avoid the media like they had a disease that makes Covid look like cooties. the failure of the plan is only exceeded by the failure of our response to that failure.

[CitizenBBN]

Pointing fingers at Trump or anyone who wanted to leave Afghanistan is ridiculous, as it creates the absurd assumption that this mess was somehow a given, inevitable if you were going to leave. That has so far been Biden's position.

that is crap. Even if the country was going to inevitably fall, which I think was very true, that only means that you then know you had better plan a whole lot better and have everyone safely out and equipment destroyed. So if you think this was inevitable then it only worsens the case against Biden.

The Brits and other nations should have been gone by this point, so they were not exposed, leaving only their last combat troops as needed to assist. Certainly all our people should have been gone.

No, wanting to leave has nothing to do with this mess, which is mostly about HOW we left.

The only thing Biden and Trump have in common ownership here is that, with the fall of the country, we will see renewed terrorism around the world. But it's not at all clear Trump would have pulled out like this, and absolutely not clear he would have stood by to watch the nation collapse and not changed course. He could have, but it's irrelevant to Biden's failure to act.

[dan_bgblue]

And now NO ONE in Afghansitan, or much of anywhere else, is going to help us, b/c we left our Afghan allies, hundreds of thousands of women, and even our NATO allies absolutely hung out to dry.

Hell, we didn't even coordinate this with the British and other nations with troops there, who had no choice but to pull back. Go read British media sources on this debacle. Parlaiment called an emergency session.

People think Trump undermined NATO an our alliances? He didn't leave NATO and allied troops to fend for themselves as terrorists came over the hill.

The British prime minister was quoted in their news papers as saying that they would never be put in this position by the Americans ever again. He is pissed

[Catonahottinroof]

Our allies are flipping out at how this is being handled too.

[CitizenBBN]

The British prime minister was quoted in their news papers as saying that they would never be put in this position by the Americans ever again. He is pissed

The media hasn't covered it, but Biden has done more damage to NATO an our allies, esp. the Brits, of any President in a long time.

People wrung their hands over Trump's words, but nothing comes close to Biden's actions an the damage he has done.

At the very best he's a lame duck in foreign policy, other nations will never trust him, but unfortunately this will damage our credibility for decades to come.

And nothing is better proof of how badly this was handled, and that it isn't on Trump's policies, that the Brits and others were left holding this bag. We had no backup plan, no coordination with our allies, nada.

Cluster F*** is the only way to put this mess. Americans, allies, our NATO allies, Afghan supporters, all just tossed to the wind so Biden's team could tout that he got us out of Afghanistan in time to celebrate it on 9/11. Maybe they can hold the ceremony at Andrews AFB while he reviews the coffins of the dead. Yes that's harsh, but I'm so disgusted by this, as is every veteran I know, I think they would feel the same way.

He should resign. He is mentally incompetent and not capable of being President. Hell his people are telling him who to call on in pressers, cutting off his mic when he answers wrong. He's not POTUS any more than you or I. The people running him however are dumber than him.

[Catonahottinroof]

I’m not sure I can hold him completely responsible for this because he’s mentally deficient at this point. His handlers are likely calling the shots, but Joe will take the blame. Plausible deniability when he eventually takes the fall.

[bigsky]

Susan Rice will blame the whole thing on Trump, or failing that, and it does fail, she will find an obscure movie maker to blame.

Surrender Joe is not following the Trump plan, nor has he been shy about ditching every other policy. It’s beyond credible to blame this botched surrender on Trump.

[KeithKSR]

In the words of Obama, “Don't underestimate Joe's ability to #&*# things up”

Biden didn’t use Trump’s withdrawal plan. He didn’t use any of the withdrawal plans suggested to him by the military, State Department or Intelligence. Biden used his own plan, because he knew better than any of those other people.

[dan_bgblue]

Interesting comments from former VP Pence at the end of the article on the disappearance of current VP Harris.

Linkage (https://www.nysun.com/editorials/the-vice-presidential-vacuum/91626/)

[catmanjack]

She must be in rehab because she has definitely disappeared.

[KeithKSR]

She must be in rehab because she has definitely disappeared.

If you are referencing Kamala, after boasting about being the last one in the room on decision making for Afghanistan, when things went sideways she allegedly said she wasn’t taking the blame and left DC.

[catmanjack]

Press and VP are just imploding from within.
I would also say their relationship is not good.

[Doc]

Some tidbits some of you guys may not be aware of or might have forgotten:

It was Trump, not Biden that negotiated directly with the Taliban and excluded the Afghan government.

It was Trump, not Biden that arranged for the release of 5,000 Taliban from prison.

It was Trump, not Biden that wanted to invite the Taliban to Camp David on the anniversary of 9-11.

It was Trump, not Biden that refused to brief the incoming administration on the Afghan situation.

It was Trump, not Biden that boasted he didn’t need an exit strategy in Afghanistan.

It was Trump, not Biden that boasted the troop withdrawal he set in motion could not be stopped.

It was Trump that was responsible for 11 deaths in Afganistan last year, it was Biden who was responsible for 13 in one day!

It was Trump that got the troops in Afghanistan down to 2,500 (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-afghanistan-military/u-s-troops-in-afghanistan-now-down-to-2500-lowest-since-2001-pentagon-idUSKBN29K229)when he left, Obama and his VP Joe Biden lowered it to it at 8,400 (https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2016/07/06/a-timeline-of-u-s-troop-levels-in-afghanistan-since-2001/) when Trump took office. Trump was withdrawing troops at a reasonable rate while making sure our assets (both personnel and ordinance) were protected. It was Biden who flicked the lets screws this up switch as much as we possibly can and left both personnel and equipment in the country.

The facts are Obama was lowering the troop levels. In 8 years he took the number of troops from 50,000 to 8,500. Good move on his part. Trump continued the exit plan on a reasonable timeline. He had a goal date of March 1st, but it was a target and not a set in stone one. Of course Biden ignored that and elected to maintain at that level and then suddenly bug out in a massive exit. Not a reasonable continued decline where you get your people and equipment out first, then the military. Nope, he elected to abandon the most secure site for exit (Bagram) and evacuate out of a central airport in Kabal which is far more difficult to secure. And he did it without making arrangements for the removal of massive amounts of weapons and technology. But to top it off, he manages to GIVE the names of American citizens and Afghani people who aided us to the Taliban under some moronic concept that this stone age terrorist group we have been in battle with for decades will simply let them pass thru the check points designed to coral in people they want to capture.

[Padukacat]

You guys are giving Biden too much credit for being in charge of the exit plan. Do we really think Biden put any thought into this? Wouldn’t he rely on his commanding officers as to when and how we are doing in regard to making the deadline? I just don’t understand how the greatest nation in the world with the best military and some real brilliant people can come together and allow this to happen. Sure it falls on Biden but man he doesn’t seem to be sharp enough to blame.

[catmanjack]

That’s the full reason this looks like a Biden plan, he is an idiot!

[catmanjack]

And actually does not care about anyone and demonstrates that with each decision.

[KeithKSR]

You guys are giving Biden too much credit for being in charge of the exit plan. Do we really think Biden put any thought into this? Wouldn’t he rely on his commanding officers as to when and how we are doing in regard to making the deadline? I just don’t understand how the greatest nation in the world with the best military and some real brilliant people can come together and allow this to happen. Sure it falls on Biden but man he doesn’t seem to be sharp enough to blame.

Biden ignored the advice.
https://www.wibc.com/blogs/hammer-and-nigel/biden-stands-by-decision-to-ignore-military-commanders-advice-on-afghanistan/

[Padukacat]

Man we watched a 9/11 doc series and it’s crazy how much of a mess the Afghan/Iraq issues are. Esp the afghan invasion and Guantanamo bay stuff. Our government regardless of what side you choose seems like a complete and utter mess. Very hard for me to trust anything that is being said honestly and I’m guessing most of america feels this way.

[Doc]

Man we watched a 9/11 doc series and it’s crazy how much of a mess the Afghan/Iraq issues are. Esp the afghan invasion and Guantanamo bay stuff. Our government regardless of what side you choose seems like a complete and utter mess. Very hard for me to trust anything that is being said honestly and I’m guessing most of america feels this way.

I watched that too (National Geographic channel). Good series. Not a bunch of political documentary....just video and personal stories told by those involved. The raw footage is excellent

[Padukacat]

I watched that too (National Geographic channel). Good series. Not a bunch of political documentary....just video and personal stories told by those involved. The raw footage is excellent

Very good and eye opening to those of us that were too young to pay close attention 20 years ago.

[catmanjack]

Did the series have a name?

[Padukacat]

Turning point on Netflix. Not sure it’s the same one I’ve seen others mention.