Cal's Pride and the Point Guard Dilemma

[CatQuick]

I don't think I've seen this here and not behind a paywall so suppose we can post.

https://www.yoursportsedge.com/2021/05/02/could-john-caliparis-pride-be-part-of-reason-coach-is-struggling-to-get-a-point-guard-to-sign-and-stick-with-uk/vaughts-views/

On track or full of baloney?

[LakeCat]

I am afraid dead one and the next 3 years or so of Cal’s tenure is not going to meet expectations of the once premier basketball program

[bigsky]

Cal’s pride hurts us no doubt when it prevents him from making changes to staff or basketball strategy or in game tactics.

[kingcat]

I don't think I've seen this here and not behind a paywall so suppose we can post.

https://www.yoursportsedge.com/2021/05/02/could-john-caliparis-pride-be-part-of-reason-coach-is-struggling-to-get-a-point-guard-to-sign-and-stick-with-uk/vaughts-views/

On track or full of baloney?

Probably some truth in there. It is well written as expected, yet maybe a little premature.

Time will tell if Cal is sitting somewhere chewing his nails or has or had a plan for a starting point guard in place all along. If he garners a good transfer and Mintz returns it will have proven premature imo, as will our concerns and lost confidence.

Now is not the time to concern ourselves with years down the road and building depth, it is the time to build a great team for next season and reclaim our place among the elite.
If bringing in a point guard transfer certain to start caused Hickman's departure, then so be it. It's still a smart move to ensure we have great point guard play.
The proven strengths at recruiting and the changing landscape in college basketball will take care of the depth issue if we accomplish that.

As for the ire of the fans and the pressure they might have put on the guys coming in being an issue, I think that's obviously a factor. But was also unavoidable.

[KeithKSR]

That isn’t Larry’s work, that is Keith Peel who wrote that.

It also seems to point the fingers more at UK fans than anywhere else.

[Darryl]

I am glad he is gone. The comment “UK fans showed their true colors at times” is telling. I suspect that references the criticism for the kneeling at Florida.

That was their right and UK fans’ right to blast them for it.

On the subject of Cal being stubborn, it’s only cost us two or three titles.

Darryl

[Darryl]

That isn’t Larry’s work, that is Keith Peel who wrote that.

It also seems to point the fingers more at UK fans than anywhere else.

Everything is the fans’ fault.

Darryl

[Harlow]

I don’t understand the shade towards fans it does get old

[Doc]

I ain't buying. I want a confident and prideful coach. I blame the issue of a poor staff more than anything. Cal let the staff slip, and is addressing it.

[Darrell KSR]

I ain't buying. I want a confident and prideful coach. I blame the issue of a poor staff more than anything. Cal let the staff slip, and is addressing it.90% of the issue, IMO.

[kingcat]

90% of the issue, IMO.

Agreed

[kybobcat]

But here is the pride side for the potential players. No one wants to step into a situation where they could be publicly embarrassed. No one. Players don’t want to be called out on social media by fans and ridiculed for playing an inexperienced, poor game of basketball. No player (or player’s parents) wants to watch their playing skills criticized 24/7 on ESPN and other media outlets because they are struggling to shoot the ball well or because they turn it over too much.

Then the question for the player becomes, “Why go there? Why take the risk?” Go to another school where the scrutiny by fans and media is not so intense and a player can still be highly successful and get drafted as a lottery pick.

I'd imagine being cussed out by your coach in a nearly empty arena would be pretty embarrassing. :rolleye0013:

[takmashfan]

I don’t understand the shade towards fans it does get old

Would you want your son to go through what Askew had to go through this year as far as the online abuse he received. I'm sure we haven't seen half of it and if you are not an absolute stud with a ton of confidence why would you put you and your family through it? Also the blowback they got in this state from kneeling is in my opinion being used against them in recruiting. Us fans are not totally to blame but we do have a part in all of this

[Doc]

Sorry but I will NEVER apologize for blowback from being critical of any athlete (or person) for kneeling during the National Anthem. If that had any affect....GOOD RIDDANCE

[Darryl]

Sorry but I will NEVER apologize for blowback from being critical of any athlete (or person) for kneeling during the National Anthem. If that had any affect....GOOD RIDDANCE

Same here. I simply stop watching. And given the ratings of the various shows/sports where they spout this hatred of everything that I love I am not alone.

Darryl

[Doc]

Same here. I simply stop watching. And given the ratings of the various shows/sports where they spout this hatred of everything that I love I am not alone.

Darryl

I dont just say Good Riddance...I say #### 'em because I have zero respect for disrespect.

[KeithKSR]

Everything is the fans’ fault.

Darryl

I don’t know why athletes would be on social media if they are sensitive to public criticism. No matter what fan base it is there are always some that will direct comments at players. Unless a player is perfect and the team is perfect they are going to be criticized.

[Doc]

Funny that they love the attention and fawning by the fans but when not performing they get all thin skin. No doubt there are many cases of stupid fans posting dumb and inappropriate crap on social media, but you cant have it both ways. You cant crave the adulation and decry the criticism

[KeithKSR]

Funny that they love the attention and fawning by the fans but when not performing they get all thin skin. No doubt there are many cases of stupid fans posting dumb and inappropriate crap on social media, but you cant have it both ways. You cant crave the adulation and decry the criticism

They want the large number of followers without the criticism that’s going to come from some of those people.

[Darryl]

For such a horrific season, I thought the criticism was rather tame for the players.

Cal certainly got hammered.... deservedly so.

Darryl

[catmanjack]

Might be premature but when all great coaches start to decline when is it premature.
Signs are there just have to watch and pay attention but have an open mind also to realize it could be happening right before our eyes.

[Harlow]

100%
Might be premature but when all great coaches start to decline when is it premature.
Signs are there just have to watch and pay attention but have an open mind also to realize it could be happening right before our eyes.

[Harlow]

I ll b shocked if Cal sees another final four! Only if he visits

[Harlow]

A lot of coaches hang on too long in all sports

[kingcat]

Might be premature but when all great coaches start to decline when is it premature.
Signs are there just have to watch and pay attention but have an open mind also to realize it could be happening right before our eyes.

My use of the term premature is in relation to who Cal brings in this season and only relative to this season. Whether he does or does not will find either you or I and those like us in perfect agreement.
i personally think he fills out the roster nicely and to everyone's satisfaction. And unless I am mistaken, you believe we are in the midst of an unavoidable decline as far as being a player on the national stage, and that it will continue with Cal here. And I assume you doubt Cal is putting together a great class to replace what we have lost. That may be, but it's premature to tell.

As for the future, I was one of the very first to note such a decline a few years back, but the two years prior to this last one I was convinced to change my tune a bit as three of the last four Cal teams were solid national title contenders.
So, I am not convinced this past season is indicative of that decline, but is more a one off, perfect storm of poor decisions, bad luck, and an extremely over-rated recruiting class which lacked a solid point guard. Also I think covid played a part in those first two.
I see several elite programs who suffered a similar fate to I think validate that opinion. So signs are there to the contrary also.

Regardless, this past season sucked for every one of us. But the future may or may not imo.

We must each keep an open mind to both possibilities, because that's the best we can do, and the limit of what we can do as fans.
Time will tell which is right, and our past arguments won't have any effect on that outcome.

I hope I am right, not for the sake of being right however. But because like you, I want UK to succeed and us here to be in friendly agreement and support of the program once again.

[catmanjack]

Again he is only going year to year and hoping to fill out the roster.

[Doc]

Get Carr and the "dilemma" is gone

I will add the Marcus Carr is and always has been my preference. Get him and Mintz back and all is good. Mintz plays the PG and SG while Carr takes the lions share of PG min. That is how it needs to be sold

[KentuckyWildcat]

For such a horrific season, I thought the criticism was rather tame for the players.

Cal certainly got hammered.... deservedly so.

DarrylYep. I liked most of the players. They just were not very good. I even liked Boston.

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

[kingcat]

Again he is only going year to year and hoping to fill out the roster.

Going forward that may be true of everyone to an extent. But the two seasons prior to the last we had good talent return and were led by two and three year players. Still, what you point to holds true for the last two seasons. So I agree.

Yet I like the direction Cal is now going much better than retaining our last class, if Mintz and Brooks return and we add an experienced point guard. It is the only possible way to turn a nine win season into a top twenty campaign or better.

If we are going to be considered one and done or two and thru, let experienced and proven players fill part of that role. And if we do, we can expect some freshman recruits to renig.

But like you and others have pointed out, keep a few guys on the roster for multiple years like Allen, Toppin, Ware, etc..

[dan_bgblue]

With players making decisions every day, time will tell if UK can fill the most important spot on its roster with a player that has the mental toughness and skill set to lead John Calipari’s dribble-drive offense next season

Before that even becomes an issue, he has to coach the team to run that offense and also make them do it.

Unfortunately in this case Larry's intern needs to learn what the DDMO is and how to identify it so that if he ever actually sees it he can point and say, yup he is running the DDMO tonight.

[Powermaker]

I am glad he is gone. The comment “UK fans showed their true colors at times” is telling. I suspect that references the criticism for the kneeling at Florida.

That was their right and UK fans’ right to blast them for it.

On the subject of Cal being stubborn, it’s only cost us two or three titles.

Darryl

Every single fan base in the country will have a portion of fans that are turned off about kneeling.

[Powermaker]

A lot of coaches hang on too long in all sports

There are very few coaches in the HOF that weren’t “ nudged “ into retirement.

[LakeCat]

There are very few coaches in the HOF that weren’t “ nudged “ into retirement.

Rupp at UK and Crum wasn't nudged but flat shown the door.

[Darryl]

Every single fan base in the country will have a portion of fans that are turned off about kneeling.

A very large portion....

Darryl

[KeithKSR]

Every single fan base in the country will have a portion of fans that are turned off about kneeling.

I think the kneeling at Florida and the resulting backlash hurt the team.

[DanISSELisdaman]

I think so to Keith. I now it angered me and most of the UK fans that I know. Many, including me didn't watch any of the remaining games after it happened. I hope they have that foolishness out of their system and are ready to play ball this year.

[KeithKSR]

I think so to Keith. I now it angered me and most of the UK fans that I know. Many, including me didn't watch any of the remaining games after it happened. I hope they have that foolishness out of their system and are ready to play ball this year.

I know the team was on a roll, then kneels at Florida. After the big win the main questions from the media were about the kneeling. They then lost 7 out of the next 8 games, a number to lesser opponents than the Florida team they kicked around the court in Gainesville. As far as I know it was the only time players knelt during the anthem all season.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I know the team was on a roll, then kneels at Florida. After the big win the main questions from the media were about the kneeling. They then lost 7 out of the next 8 games, a number to lesser opponents than the Florida team they kicked around the court in Gainesville. As far as I know it was the only time players knelt during the anthem all season.

The fact that the team was on a roll was why everyone should have just laid off their criticism, or at least not made it so public and let the team and players peacefully protest in a way that is respectful to them. I know people say, well they should have never taken a knee in the first place. Well, that's exactly the same dumb logic when a husband says the reason he beat his wife is because she made him mad.

Even though I do not agree with those that oppose it, I do not have any issue with those folks practicing their own boycotts, but I do have a problem when they feel it necessary to contact the team and individual players directly and harass them about their decisions.

Some UK fans need to make a choice too, because it's not going anywhere, especially in the immediate future of what Kellen Grady brings to the program. It is a turning point for the program, all sports and the university. Do our fans represent one of openness and inclusion or does it represent the "shut up and dribble" crowd? Obviously there are folks on both sides, but only one POV becomes pervasive to the people that are looking at schools.

The choice for me is VERY easy and if the prevailing, perceived attitude surrounds the program on the latter, I will have no problem handing in my BBN fan credentials. Now, that doesn't mean fan reactions, there are bad apples in every fan base. However, if it permeates the culture, the hiring, the coaches, the administration, then its adios for me. Based on who our coaches in our major programs are, I think my fandom is safe.

[catmanjack]

Again they have a right to protest and use the UK platform fans have a right to voice their displeasure.

[LakeCat]

Freedom of speech and expression pertains to players and fans alike. Protests by their very nature are to provoke a action and always entails a reaction

[Darrell KSR]

Freedom of speech and expression pertains to players and fans alike. Protests by their very nature are to provoke a action and always entails a reaction

This.

And remember, at its base, Kentucky basketball (or any sport) is entertainment only. We are all free to choose to be entertained how we see fit, and by whom we see fit. We all have, for the most part, a common allegiance on this board in that we have roots in the Commonwealth, and for most, that is the overriding concern, and we can overlook some things that we wouldn't overlook if we were choosing with no allegiance. But make no mistake--it's entertainment only, and we are free to do whatever we want with our entertainment time.

My brother has an interesting way of handling stuff like this. Any time an entertainer--be it a sports team, or a singer, or a comedian or an actor takes a political position he disagrees with--he "punishes" them by suspending them. I think he has the right idea. It makes him feel better to miss their next movie; to intentionally not listen to their next album or buy a ticket to their next concert, or to miss their next sporting event. They are punished.

When his self-appointed punishment has expired, he thinks they have done their time, and he forgives them, and moves on. Now, if they continue, he can do it again, of course--he makes up his own rules, and it's entertainment, so why not--but his general mantra is that it's HIS entertainment, so he's going to be entertained by the entertainers in the way he sees fit.

I think he has it better than most, but that's JMO.

[Powermaker]

The fact that the team was on a roll was why everyone should have just laid off their criticism, or at least not made it so public and let the team and players peacefully protest in a way that is respectful to them. I know people say, well they should have never taken a knee in the first place. Well, that's exactly the same dumb logic when a husband says the reason he beat his wife is because she made him mad.

Even though I do not agree with those that oppose it, I do not have any issue with those folks practicing their own boycotts, but I do have a problem when they feel it necessary to contact the team and individual players directly and harass them about their decisions.

Some UK fans need to make a choice too, because it's not going anywhere, especially in the immediate future of what Kellen Grady brings to the program. It is a turning point for the program, all sports and the university. Do our fans represent one of openness and inclusion or does it represent the "shut up and dribble" crowd? Obviously there are folks on both sides, but only one POV becomes pervasive to the people that are looking at schools.

The choice for me is VERY easy and if the prevailing, perceived attitude surrounds the program on the latter, I will have no problem handing in my BBN fan credentials. Now, that doesn't mean fan reactions, there are bad apples in every fan base. However, if it permeates the culture, the hiring, the coaches, the administration, then its adios for me. Based on who our coaches in our major programs are, I think my fandom is safe.
I respectfully disagree with you on this . I’m a lifelong UK fan , but I’m not going to change something I have a fundamental belief in just because “ the team was on a roll” . Also , sports viewership has taken a beating because of their “right to express themselves “ . It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out when it really starts affecting their bottom line.

[Darryl]

This.

And remember, at its base, Kentucky basketball (or any sport) is entertainment only. We are all free to choose to be entertained how we see fit, and by whom we see fit. We all have, for the most part, a common allegiance on this board in that we have roots in the Commonwealth, and for most, that is the overriding concern, and we can overlook some things that we wouldn't overlook if we were choosing with no allegiance. But make no mistake--it's entertainment only, and we are free to do whatever we want with our entertainment time.

My brother has an interesting way of handling stuff like this. Any time an entertainer--be it a sports team, or a singer, or a comedian or an actor takes a political position he disagrees with--he "punishes" them by suspending them. I think he has the right idea. It makes him feel better to miss their next movie; to intentionally not listen to their next album or buy a ticket to their next concert, or to miss their next sporting event. They are punished.

When his self-appointed punishment has expired, he thinks they have done their time, and he forgives them, and moves on. Now, if they continue, he can do it again, of course--he makes up his own rules, and it's entertainment, so why not--but his general mantra is that it's HIS entertainment, so he's going to be entertained by the entertainers in the way he sees fit.

I think he has it better than most, but that's JMO.

I knew we were kin; you just described me and my brothers

Darryl

[KeithKSR]

I respectfully disagree with you on this . I’m a lifelong UK fan , but I’m not going to change something I have a fundamental belief in just because “ the team was on a roll” . Also , sports viewership has taken a beating because of their “right to express themselves “ . It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out when it really starts affecting their bottom line.

I know of a lot of diehard UK fans that didn’t watch a single game after the game at Florida.

[Powermaker]

I know of a lot of diehard UK fans that didn’t watch a single game after the game at Florida.

Me too . I’ ll be interested if they stick to it if we’re really good next year .I just wish we could keep politics out of sports.

[KeithKSR]

Me too . I’ ll be interested if they stick to it if we’re really good next year .I just wish we could keep politics out of sports.

I don’t like to mix the two. The NBA seems to be the most politicized sport and their ratings have tanked.

[suncat05]

I think so to Keith. I now it angered me and most of the UK fans that I know. Many, including me didn't watch any of the remaining games after it happened. I hope they have that foolishness out of their system and are ready to play ball this year.

Oh, it ticked me off too. But college kids are very prone to following whatever "the latest trend" is, and that is what I'd like to believe this nonsense was.
It's trendy & fashionable to rebel against authority. And every generation does it, in one form or another.
Now, the whole George Floyd - Derrick Chauvin situation was bad. On both sides. Chauvin exceeded and abused his authority, and he's going to be spending a long time in prison for that. As he should. But let's not forget that Floyd wasn't exactly an angel either. That is the point that I believe is being overlooked in the whole narrative. Only one side of that story is being told by the media, which itself is an abuse of trust by the media.
There are two sides to every story. Every time, all the time. Always.
And by kneeling, these kids are ignoring the entire story. And showing their lack of understanding of how the world really is.
This is just my humble opinion, and how I saw this situation. I realize that not all will see this as I saw it, but I believe that BOTH sides of the story need to be examined equally, which I believe was not done.

[ukpumacat]

Covid killed the ratings in almost every sport and award show across the board. Not because anyone kneeled (and I don’t doubt there were people who stopped watching because of it).
NASCAR ratings are way down as well. The Daytona 500 was down 35%.

I think there is a fascinating story here as to why Covid caused the ratings in almost everything to tank, but I don’t think any kneeling has a lot to do with it.

[CitizenBBN]

Do our fans represent one of openness and inclusion or does it represent the "shut up and dribble" crowd? Obviously there are folks on both sides, but only one POV becomes pervasive to the people that are looking at schools..

One side is for "inclusion and openness", the other must not be for it. Wonderful how language is used to end discussion, isn't it?

I won't reply to taking the thread this way, just wanted to point out that wonderful subtlety and the false premise on which it is based. Carry on.

[CitizenBBN]

I think there is a fascinating story here as to why Covid caused the ratings in almost everything to tank, but I don’t think any kneeling has a lot to do with it.

Considering that every kind of streaming etc. shot up, I find that interesting as well.

Heck, we had a bump in people following auctions. People were looking for anything to do, yet tuned out sports.

[Doc]

Freedom of speech and expression pertains to players and fans alike. Protests by their very nature are to provoke a action and always entails a reaction

Sorry but "Freedom of Speech" is something that should not apply. As you know, the first amendment is protection against the gov't limiting speech, not a college or the NCAA. They want to state their beliefs on their own time, fine. Nobody is restricting that

What I find interesting is the many things that are offensive such as the confederate flag, red hats, etc are banned but something as offensive as kneeling for the anthem are not. Somethings are touted as brave!

[Darryl]

Covid killed the ratings in almost every sport and award show across the board. Not because anyone kneeled (and I don’t doubt there were people who stopped watching because of it).
NASCAR ratings are way down as well. The Daytona 500 was down 35%.

I think there is a fascinating story here as to why Covid caused the ratings in almost everything to tank, but I don’t think any kneeling has a lot to do with it.

You might want to conduct a poll in Alabama; I suspect you’re very wrong.

Darryl

[takmashfan]

Every single fan base in the country will have a portion of fans that are turned off about kneeling.

I agree but were the other fan bases as vocal about their displeasure for the kneeling?

[takmashfan]

[QUOTE=Darryl;709687]You might want to conduct a poll in Alabama; I suspect you’re very wrong.

Darryl[/

Could be wrong but I think a lot of people realized when sports shutdown there were a lot of other things that I/they enjoyed doing that I/they hadn't done in a long time. Made me realize, anyway, that getting all tore up over some sporting event in the long run is pretty senseless

[DanISSELisdaman]

I know the team was on a roll, then kneels at Florida. After the big win the main questions from the media were about the kneeling. They then lost 7 out of the next 8 games, a number to lesser opponents than the Florida team they kicked around the court in Gainesville. As far as I know it was the only time players knelt during the anthem all season.

Yes, I think it had a lot to do with their on court problems. I didn't know if they knelt any more or not. I didn't watch them after that game. I wouldn't have watched it if I had known they had knelt.

[Powermaker]

I agree but were the other fan bases as vocal about their displeasure for the kneeling?

I’m sure they were . There are lots more UK fans than most every other program so relatively speaking, in pure numbers there were more fans that were vocal . Kentucky is also a conservative state so the % of people disgusted with kneeling is probably greater than some states.

[takmashfan]

I’m sure they were . There are lots more UK fans than most every other program so relatively speaking, in pure numbers there were more fans that were vocal . Kentucky is also a conservative state so the % of people disgusted with kneeling is probably greater than some states.

And that is the whole point that I was trying to make earlier in the thread that it is being used against us in recruiting. Should they have done it, I wished they wouldn't have. It is their right just as it is our right to agree or disagree. I just wish our fan base wouldn't had been so vocal about it because i'm afraid we're paying some consequences recruiting now

[DanISSELisdaman]

Oh, it ticked me off too. But college kids are very prone to following whatever "the latest trend" is, and that is what I'd like to believe this nonsense was.
It's trendy & fashionable to rebel against authority. And every generation does it, in one form or another.
Now, the whole George Floyd - Derrick Chauvin situation was bad. On both sides. Chauvin exceeded and abused his authority, and he's going to be spending a long time in prison for that. As he should. But let's not forget that Floyd wasn't exactly an angel either. That is the point that I believe is being overlooked in the whole narrative. Only one side of that story is being told by the media, which itself is an abuse of trust by the media.
There are two sides to every story. Every time, all the time. Always.
And by kneeling, these kids are ignoring the entire story. And showing their lack of understanding of how the world really is.
This is just my humble opinion, and how I saw this situation. I realize that not all will see this as I saw it, but I believe that BOTH sides of the story need to be examined equally, which I believe was not done.

I agree with this. The media has messed in every bodies mess kit! I chose to not watch them, because I thought they were being dis-respectful to our service men and women and our flag and they are much more important to me than watching a bunch mis-informed kids throw a ball through a hoop. Don't get me wrong, I've been a lifelong fan of the Wildcats and it's not easy to lay aside something you love, but in this case, it was the thing to do IMO. If the good Lord allows me to live, I'll watch them this year, unless they show disrespect again. If they do, I'll find something better to do with my time.

[LakeCat]

Sorry but "Freedom of Speech" is something that should not apply. As you know, the first amendment is protection against the gov't limiting speech, not a college or the NCAA. They want to state their beliefs on their own time, fine. Nobody is restricting that

What I find interesting is the many things that are offensive such as the confederate flag, red hats, etc are banned but something as offensive as kneeling for the anthem are not. Somethings are touted as brave!

Oh Doc I certainly did not imply it was ok for the players to use the court as their avenue for protest. I wasn’t wild about the football team marching downtown but it wasn’t carried to the field so ok imo. I just meant players and fans alike have the right to express themselves on their own time. I lost two flight school classmates in Vietnam who were shot down. Their bodies were never found. I don’t have adequate words to express how po’d I was at the kneeling particularly the coaching staff. I still love UK but will never fully embrace Cal again

[uklandrn]

This.

And remember, at its base, Kentucky basketball (or any sport) is entertainment only. We are all free to choose to be entertained how we see fit, and by whom we see fit. We all have, for the most part, a common allegiance on this board in that we have roots in the Commonwealth, and for most, that is the overriding concern, and we can overlook some things that we wouldn't overlook if we were choosing with no allegiance. But make no mistake--it's entertainment only, and we are free to do whatever we want with our entertainment time.

My brother has an interesting way of handling stuff like this. Any time an entertainer--be it a sports team, or a singer, or a comedian or an actor takes a political position he disagrees with--he "punishes" them by suspending them. I think he has the right idea. It makes him feel better to miss their next movie; to intentionally not listen to their next album or buy a ticket to their next concert, or to miss their next sporting event. They are punished.

When his self-appointed punishment has expired, he thinks they have done their time, and he forgives them, and moves on. Now, if they continue, he can do it again, of course--he makes up his own rules, and it's entertainment, so why not--but his general mantra is that it's HIS entertainment, so he's going to be entertained by the entertainers in the way he sees fit.

I think he has it better than most, but that's JMO.

I started doing this in my own way in the 90's towards Hollywood. I basically stopped going to movies if the people in them decided they wanted to express viewpoints that were antithesis to my own. I agree they are allowed their opinions. I am also allowed to not support their opinion with my money.

[Powermaker]

And that is the whole point that I was trying to make earlier in the thread that it is being used against us in recruiting. Should they have done it, I wished they wouldn't have. It is their right just as it is our right to agree or disagree. I just wish our fan base wouldn't had been so vocal about it because i'm afraid we're paying some consequences recruiting now
Not me , I haven’t been vocal about it but I’ve got no problem with people that have . Recruiting or no recruiting. I could very easily give up watching the college basketball $hit show of today .

[catmanjack]

It’s a total **** show, and one thing that bugs me the more I ponder it is that Cal really does not care about The University of Kentucky and how his actions or approach effort the future.

[ukpumacat]

You might want to conduct a poll in Alabama; I suspect you’re very wrong.

Darryl

Again, I don’t doubt people stopped watching something because of kneeling. I’m positive those people are out there.

I’m simply saying I think that’s way too simplistic to blame low ratings simply on that.

Like I said, Nascars ratings have plummeted as well.
It’s certainly not because they kneeled during the national anthem.
The World Series ratings were way down. Same with the Stanley Cup. Same with the Masters.

This was an across the board ratings dive for every single major sport no matter their political/social messaging.

It had far more to do with other things than it did with politics.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I respectfully disagree with you on this . I’m a lifelong UK fan , but I’m not going to change something I have a fundamental belief in just because “ the team was on a roll” . Also , sports viewership has taken a beating because of their “right to express themselves “ . It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out when it really starts affecting their bottom line.

I'm not really sure what you are disagreeing with. I am not expecting anyone to change their beliefs, although I do think if the players were able to actually talk to fans that feel this way and vice versa, that some beliefs would change, I am suggesting people pick a better way to express themselves, the same thing that many that are opposing side of the kneeling are saying too. A fitting compromise is to pick a game per year to protest and the fans be silent.

The actions that I oppose are when people go too far and DM the players directly.

Again, I am not saying that anyone should not be free to express themselves. I just say choose some restraint and do it respectfully. If you disagree with that, well, I just don't know.



I know of a lot of diehard UK fans that didn’t watch a single game after the game at Florida.

I would call those die-easy fans if a simple kneeling turned them off. There are plenty of athletes on teams that I support that believe in things that I do not. I keep watching.



One side is for "inclusion and openness", the other must not be for it. Wonderful how language is used to end discussion, isn't it?

I won't reply to taking the thread this way, just wanted to point out that wonderful subtlety and the false premise on which it is based. Carry on.

When one side "writes the rules" for which they expect all to obey and respect without any regard for how others may feel, that is exactly what not being open and inclusive is. It's what folks like you miss in this whole debate. There are millions of people for which the flag represents something completely different that all they want is for the flag to represent to them what it does for so many others. They are void of that emotion, seek it, and don't want to be told 'you must respect it like I do' without the benefits that allow them to feel that emotion.

It's a privilege that you and I, and more than likely everyone on this board, were born with. I can't imagine what pain some feel when they look at the flag and it reminds them of horrors that I can't begin to feel. I want to hear what they have to say, because I have experienced my whole life hearing and feeling why we should respect the flag. I do not want these people to simply entertain me. I want to know about their experiences.

I respect that others do not feel the same way that I do. I wish more people did, but I do not have the energy to change people that do not want to change. The last thing that I would consider folks like that is open and inclusive.

[catmanjack]

Wow!

[KentuckyWildcat]

Like I said, Nascars ratings have plummeted as well.
It’s certainly not because they kneeled during the national anthem.


Bubba Wallace



Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

[kingcat]

I just believe there are better places to discuss these things in depth.

But neither side is correct believing they are a big majority, or that "they" are wrong and "we" are right.

It is not universal in how it emotionally effects people, and there is no right or wrong. It is rather a question of, is this appropriate, and is this effective.

Some folks think the flag represents the service men and women who have served and sacrificed for this country. And that it is something bigger than the individual.

Still, others believe that those those individuals who served represent and gave their lives for the flag, or more precisely, those it stands for and what it seeks to accomplish. The ongoing endeavor to create and maintain, as a great man once said, a more perfect union where each citizen is treated fairly and entirely equal.
That is an endeavor that will never end as long as we exist as a nation, and has been proclaimed as our agenda for the whole world for many decades now.

Still, those two ideologies, neither being wrong or without noble intent, are never going to coexist when someone kneels before the flag.
And perhaps that is both the positive and negative of it. It is certainly why I believe it is not an effective means to have your protest heard. Reaching people, even when the cause may be just, is impossible when you first offend them. There is the fallacy of it.

One side views it as protesting the flag, and the other sees it as protesting before the flag, and directly to all those whom the flag represents. That just seems so evident and so important to understand.
Except for advertising dollars and its manipulative marketing strategies, I think most would have already come to that conclusion.

And I believe the practice would have ceased. I really do.

[KeithKSR]

Again, I don’t doubt people stopped watching something because of kneeling. I’m positive those people are out there.

I’m simply saying I think that’s way too simplistic to blame low ratings simply on that.

Like I said, Nascars ratings have plummeted as well.
It’s certainly not because they kneeled during the national anthem.
The World Series ratings were way down. Same with the Stanley Cup. Same with the Masters.

This was an across the board ratings dive for every single major sport no matter their political/social messaging.

It had far more to do with other things than it did with politics.

I don’t follow NASCAR but know that they took a big hit with their political stance last summer.

[KeithKSR]

When one side "writes the rules" for which they expect all to obey and respect without any regard for how others may feel, that is exactly what not being open and inclusive is. It's what folks like you miss in this whole debate. There are millions of people for which the flag represents something completely different that all they want is for the flag to represent to them what it does for so many others. They are void of that emotion, seek it, and don't want to be told 'you must respect it like I do' without the benefits that allow them to feel that emotion.

It's a privilege that you and I, and more than likely everyone on this board, were born with. I can't imagine what pain some feel when they look at the flag and it reminds them of horrors that I can't begin to feel. I want to hear what they have to say, because I have experienced my whole life hearing and feeling why we should respect the flag. I do not want these people to simply entertain me. I want to know about their experiences.

I respect that others do not feel the same way that I do. I wish more people did, but I do not have the energy to change people that do not want to change. The last thing that I would consider folks like that is open and inclusive.

The woke crowd isn’t very inclusive with their constant search and destroy missions. In fact they are very exclusionary.

[catmanjack]

When Americans talk about hate for the flag that’s huge, whatever you wish to achieve is there for the taking but Americans earn it and work for it.
This new found generation or this woke crowd wants everything given to them.
They will destroy this country and laugh about it as it collapses around them!

[CitizenBBN]

I

When one side "writes the rules" for which they expect all to obey and respect without any regard for how others may feel, that is exactly what not being open and inclusive is. It's what folks like you miss in this whole debate. There are millions of people for which the flag represents something completely different that all they want is for the flag to represent to them what it does for so many others. They are void of that emotion, seek it, and don't want to be told 'you must respect it like I do' without the benefits that allow them to feel that emotion.

It's a privilege that you and I, and more than likely everyone on this board, were born with. I can't imagine what pain some feel when they look at the flag and it reminds them of horrors that I can't begin to feel. I want to hear what they have to say, because I have experienced my whole life hearing and feeling why we should respect the flag. I do not want these people to simply entertain me. I want to know about their experiences.

I respect that others do not feel the same way that I do. I wish more people did, but I do not have the energy to change people that do not want to change. The last thing that I would consider folks like that is open and inclusive.

"Folks like me"??? Wow, you are so good at mind reading to know what I think on this issue and I haven't even really discussed it here. What am I thinking now?

You and I are two ships that pass in the night. You think I don't see your points. I do, but this has nothing to do with my point.

The point is that "your side" isn't any more open and inclusive than those you dismiss. There's almost no open and inclusive anywhere in any of these debates right now. No one side is being open and inclusive here and the other closed and dismissive. It's 24/7 dismissive and closed from all sides. Anyone who dissents is demonized, or to borrow the modern tactic, "cancelled".

My point wasn't even about the kneeling, but specifically how language is used to draw lines in the sand that are totally artificial and are nothing more than the propaganda that is usually reserved for demonizing a people when at a state of war.

[ukpumacat]

I don’t follow NASCAR but know that they took a big hit with their political stance last summer.

I don’t follow it either. Again, I’m not even participating or engaging in the political debate about kneeling.
I know people have stopped watching over it. I have friends on here that have and several not on here that have. I get that and don’t doubt it.

I just believe it’s far more than that. And for me, I’m fascinated by that part of the discussion (by reading this thread I think I’m the only one that is ha).
Something happened during Covid that made people less interested in things like watching sports.
It may be the lack of crowds. It may be the Rhythm of life that changed. It may be that people found other interests. It may be that sports just seemed frivolous. It may be that sports just didn’t seem very important anymore. Maybe all of that.
But it was 100% across the board in every sport. No matter the audience. No matter the political leanings. They ALL took a dive. And that fascinates me.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

The woke crowd isn’t very inclusive with their constant search and destroy missions. In fact they are very exclusionary.

I don't know what you mean by the "constant search and destroy missions". If I had to guess, wouldn't that just be characterizing an entire group of people, by the perceived actions of a few? Kind of like what the "blue lives matter" people tells the country not to do with police.

Plus, I actually find what is characterized as woke person absolutely open to a dialogue. The problem is with almost any disagreeing parties is that reason and respect can de-escalate quickly once either side perceives a threat.







The point is that "your side" isn't any more open and inclusive than those you dismiss. There's almost no open and inclusive anywhere in any of these debates right now. No one side is being open and inclusive here and the other closed and dismissive.

I don't have "a side" in this game. My only side is to have a dialogue. I do tend to have more empathy for people that have gone through things that I cannot understand. I tend to have more empathy for people that have got the short end of the stick. I tend to have more empathy for people that have not had the privileges that you and I have had.

I hear a lot that one side feels like they are not being included. I am waiting for someone to tell me what it is they are missing out on.

I've gone as far as I want to in this conversation, because as I said, I do not have the energy to change minds, nor do I have the experiences to change minds. My goals in life is to keep learning about things that I never knew. Injustices. Inequalities. What privilege really means. I keep learning so I can improve myself and treat people how they want to be treated.

I can't read your mind, but I can read your words and if I have mischaracterized you in any way, you have an outlet to set things straight, but this is not my first time at the rodeo with you and I think I have a pretty good understanding of where you stand.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

But it was 100% across the board in every sport. No matter the audience. No matter the political leanings. They ALL took a dive. And that fascinates me.

I don't know if I find it fascinating or heartwarming. I don't think it will be permanent either, because people tend to gravitate back to what they know and love.

[kingcat]

I do believe threads like this one can turn multiple recruits off and drive the players we already have away. And with only one view of it in its entirety.
It's that sensitive for both sides, and that easily manipulated.

That said, I also believe it's a discussion that is sorely needed. But where are the moderates who would have to lead such a dialogue on a national scale?

[takmashfan]

Again, I don’t doubt people stopped watching something because of kneeling. I’m positive those people are out there.

I’m simply saying I think that’s way too simplistic to blame low ratings simply on that.

Like I said, Nascars ratings have plummeted as well.
It’s certainly not because they kneeled during the national anthem.
The World Series ratings were way down. Same with the Stanley Cup. Same with the Masters.

This was an across the board ratings dive for every single major sport no matter their political/social messaging.

It had far more to do with other things than it did with politics.

This^^

[takmashfan]

I don’t follow it either. Again, I’m not even participating or engaging in the political debate about kneeling.
I know people have stopped watching over it. I have friends on here that have and several not on here that have. I get that and don’t doubt it.

I just believe it’s far more than that. And for me, I’m fascinated by that part of the discussion (by reading this thread I think I’m the only one that is ha).
Something happened during Covid that made people less interested in things like watching sports.
It may be the lack of crowds. It may be the Rhythm of life that changed. It may be that people found other interests. It may be that sports just seemed frivolous. It may be that sports just didn’t seem very important anymore. Maybe all of that.
But it was 100% across the board in every sport. No matter the audience. No matter the political leanings. They ALL took a dive. And that fascinates me.

Attendance and TV ratings were declining across the board for sporting events before covid hit. When it did I think, myself included, a lot of people found that there were other things that they enjoyed doing. That when sports started back up it just didn't have the same meaning for me anyway. Did I still enjoy watching, of course, but if it didn't go the way I wanted it to it wasn't a big deal.

[bigsky]

Where are the moderates? Horrified by the left’s greed and lust for power and hate america first politics. Disgusted by the federal government’s looting of our future. Stop spending stop spending stop spending. The original tea party mantra. We pledged to support the Constitution of country and state—all of both, but see damn few doing that. Many of us see only a horrible downfall now, and are too tired to fight a two front battle any longer.

[bigsky]

Also, pro sports are as disgusting as Hollywood, with the welfare state stadiums and gross salaries and irresponsible immoral players. Wokism is just another layer of insult to our country.

[KeithKSR]

Where are the moderates? Horrified by the left’s greed and lust for power and hate america first politics. Disgusted by the federal government’s looting of our future. Stop spending stop spending stop spending. The original tea party mantra. We pledged to support the Constitution of country and state—all of both, but see damn few doing that. Many of us see only a horrible downfall now, and are too tired to fight a two front battle any longer.

The far left desires to facilitate the collapse of our economy and government in order to push through their socialist-communist agenda.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

The far left desires to facilitate the collapse of our economy and government in order to push through their socialist-communist agenda.

That's what you believe, but we all actually KNOW that the right tried to overthrow our Democracy, and wanted to hang and harm our elected leaders all for a purpose to halt the process of formally electing a President freely selected by the people and to install an autocrat. 70% of Republicans believe the election was a fraud and support Jan 6. 70% of American, therefore do not believe in American democracy in favor of absolute rule. That's about 55 million people. This "far left" that you speak of that supports "the collapse of our economy and government", how many people is that? 1 million? 2 million? Probably less.

Excluding this far left group, all other folks on the left really seek a government that represents all the people and not just the corporations and the wealthy and a government that works to minimize discrimination.

There is a legitimate threat to our democracy, but it's not this conspiracy that you suggest that has no influence, power, ability or leaders.

[KeithKSR]

That's what you believe, but we all actually KNOW that the right tried to overthrow our Democracy, and wanted to hang and harm our elected leaders all for a purpose to halt the process of formally electing a President freely selected by the people and to install an autocrat. 70% of Republicans believe the election was a fraud and support Jan 6. 70% of American, therefore do not believe in American democracy in favor of absolute rule. That's about 55 million people. This "far left" that you speak of that supports "the collapse of our economy and government", how many people is that? 1 million? 2 million? Probably less.

Excluding this far left group, all other folks on the left really seek a government that represents all the people and not just the corporations and the wealthy and a government that works to minimize discrimination.

There is a legitimate threat to our democracy, but it's not this conspiracy that you suggest that has no influence, power, ability or leaders.

The far left has put their goals in writing and are self-proclaimed Marxists, but you are too blinded to acknowledge what they are saying.

[MickintheHam]

I believe if we went back to conscription this country would improve. Maybe not all military, but service to humanity.

[dan_bgblue]

I believe if we went back to conscription this country would improve. Maybe not all military, but service to humanity.


:sHa_clap2:

[suncat05]

I believe if we went back to conscription this country would improve. Maybe not all military, but service to humanity.

This is a good idea. A very good idea. :sHa_clap2:

[VirginiaCat]

I believe if we went back to conscription this country would improve. Maybe not all military, but service to humanity.

Been saying this for year. Worst thing that happened to this country was elimination of the Draft. A hick from E.KY got to know the person from inner city Chicago as a person, not a persona portrayed by news or media. That was lost.