If Trump Is Responsible For The Capitol Chaos, Biden/Harris Caused Summer Of Hate

[Darryl]

Agreed?

Darryl

[anderwt]

How is that? I think the whole left side caused this summer. But what does this accomplish? ZERO and we lean more to a civil war...

[Catfan73]

I don't understand why an attempted coup keeps being compared to protests last summer. It's juvenile at best.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Disagree.

Where was Biden and Harris leading a call to action to burn cities?

They were on television everyday condemning the violence.

This summer was caused by police repeatedly killing black men and unfortunately turned into a battle between fascists and antifascists who both have nefarious intentions.

[catmanjack]

Please stop!
And the police killing black men is getting old.
If they acted as everyone acts these things could be managed.
How many cops are shot and killed by black men.
How many unarmed white men are shot and killed.
More much more then blacks so please stop!

[catmanjack]

This whole summer was a narrative by nothing more then terrorist trying to force the government to give in!
What was Seattle? It was an attempt to overthrow the government.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Please stop!
And the police killing black men is getting old.
If they acted as everyone acts these things could be managed.
How many cops are shot and killed by black men.
How many unarmed white men are shot and killed.
More much more then blacks so please stop!

Respectfully, NO.

When we stop, the killings keep happening.

Yes, you are correct, there are more whites killed by police than blacks, but as a percentage of the population (which is what really matters), it is extremely disproportionate.

We will not stop until police are held accountable and the excessive killings are few and far between. It is unrealistic to ever assume they will completely go away, because there will always be bad actors. THE problem is that the institution and the legal systems hide and protect the bad actors. Good people and good cops do not say and do enough.

[catmanjack]

Stu just being Stu nothing knew.

[catmanjack]

Now here we go with the population thing oh that is a really good narrative also.
So why is it that the black population commit 85-90% of the major crime guess that’s my fault.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Now here we go with the population thing oh that is a really good narrative also.
So why is it that the black population commit 85-90% of the major crime guess that’s my fault.

Why don't you tell me?

Is it something in their DNA?

Can you tell me why when a black person and a white person commit the same crime, even as first time offenders, that the black person more than not gets harsher sentences?

It is ALL of our fault.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Stu just being Stu nothing knew.

What did nothing know?

:sign0157:

[catmanjack]

Totally disagree with it being our fault as each has the right to decide their own path and direction.
If you choose to bow down that’s on you.
No man should bow down!

Why don't you tell me?

Is it something in their DNA?

Can you tell me why when a black person and a white person commit the same crime, even as first time offenders, that the black person more than not gets harsher sentences?

It is ALL of our fault.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Totally disagree with it being our fault as each has the right to decide their own path and direction.
If you choose to bow down that’s on you.
No man should bow down!

Is this an admission that you are better than black people?

I ask this because I am not really sure what 'bow down' means. I just said that I treat black people equal and with empathy and you come back that this is 'bowing down'.

Care to clarify?

[catmanjack]

Please do not talk to me about being better as you know nothing about me or my life.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Please do not talk to me about being better as you know nothing about me or my life.

You are right, I can only conclude by what you write.

Your words are baffling to me. I am simply trying to understand what 'bow down' means. You have equated my actions of treating black people equally and practicing empathy as 'bowing down'.

I invited you to clarify, but what you are asking me to do is not draw any conclusions from your words. Why should I do that, you have done that to me?

Again, I invite you to clarify, otherwise the conclusion that I am going to draw is that you think you are better than black people. Sorry.

[catmanjack]

I believe that each man is equal and putting forth hard work provides the rewards, others see wanting handouts.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I believe that each man is equal and putting forth hard work provides the rewards, others see wanting handouts.

Do you believe that two people can work equally hard, but a person of color may not reap equal rewards? Same with a man versus a woman?

"wanting handouts" as you call it is not limited to one party or one ideology.

[Doc]

Biden and Harris' action did not cause or are responsible for the summer violence..I mean peaceful protests. They did support and encourage by posting bail for perpetrators but it is BLM, antifa and those who actually committed the acts.

Again, Trump never encouraged or condoned the actions of those who entered the Captol. He condemned that act as well as called out the national guard. Additionally multiple arrest have been made, and not once has Trump attempted to raise bail for those jailed individuals. Just because the media blames him without any support does not make it so. He called for a march, a peaceful march, on the Capitol. Some individulas in the crowd took it to the next level. Some of those have been shown to be antifa, something the media is ignoring because it falls outside their script.

[Doc]

I don't understand why an attempted coup keeps being compared to protests last summer. It's juvenile at best.

The only attempted coup I have seen is the acts of the democrats for the last 4 years. The Capitol invasion was a protest gone overboard, not a coup attempt. There was never any attempt to overthrow the government, and to suggest so is juvenile

[ukpumacat]

The only attempted coup I have seen is the acts of the democrats for the last 4 years. The Capitol invasion was a protest gone overboard, not a coup attempt. There was never any attempt to overthrow the government, and to suggest so is juvenile

Whatever words one wants to use...that mob was within 10 feet of the Congress at one point. If they had of made it to them (and they tried), they would have absolutely killed some of them. I have no doubt about that in my mind.
The videos of people screaming and the things they were saying are terribly disturbing.
It was far far beyond a protest.

Several say on video they are there for a "lynching".
The guy who beat the cop to death with an American flag says on video that these are "treasonous traitors that need to be dealt with".
A crowd chanted, "Hang Mike Pence".

Yes, many people there were there for a rally and protest that went overboard. But they got worked up into a frenzy and went beyond, "overboard".
But there were also many who were there to stop the certification and do harm to elected officials.
If they had of gotten to them, many more people would have died.

Just like the plan to kidnap the Governor of Michigan.
And unless its snuffed out, many aren't done.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

but it is BLM, antifa and those who actually committed the acts.



and, it was Antifa that stormed the Capitol too. No matter how many times I hear people say it, I still get a good laugh.

Antifa was not responsible for the rioting, no matter how many times Trump, Fox News and other right-wing media and people on this board want to say. This has been debunked over and over and over again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/

14,000 arrests were made during the summer protests across 49 cities. Mostly misdemeanor and curfew charges.

80 federal charges, including murder and arson, NONE deemed ties to Antifa. 4 of the most serious tied to boogaloo boys, a far right-wing extremist group.

"An intelligence bulletin issued by the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security and the National Counterterrorism Center says the greatest threat of lethal violence continues to emanate from lone offenders with racially or ethnically motivated violent extremist ideologies and [domestic violent extremists] with personalized ideologies,” specifically pointing to boogaloo-related groups as likely to be “instigating violence” at the protests.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/protests-antifa-absent/2020/06/13/7f14b8fa-ab80-11ea-9063-e69bd6520940_story.html


https://www.king5.com/article/news/nation-world/nationwide-protest-arrests-show-regular-americans-not-urban-antifa/507-970dbf2f-7d13-4ab7-83ed-da2b92d94e5d

Even FBI Director Christopher Wray testified that the protest-related violence "does not appear to be organized or attributed to one particular group or even movement."

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-coverage-threats-to-the-homeland-hearing/2020/09/17/913946564/lawmakers-tussle-over-role-of-extremists-in-protest-related-violence

How about Portland? NOPE

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-race-protests-antifa/u-s-prosecutors-do-not-charge-portland-protesters-with-antifa-ties-idUSKCN2502NQ

The ONE man that police killed that killed a Trump supporter's only link to Antifa is a facebook post that says 100% antifa.

Seattle? NOPE

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/trump-social-media-right-wing-news-stir-up-antifa-scares/



The fact is that virtually all the rioting and violence stemmed from people on both sides. Bad people on both sides. This wasn't the Capitol, which were ALL Trump supporters.. MAGAt's.

[Basket Case]

I don't understand why an attempted coup keeps being compared to protests last summer. It's juvenile at best.


Attempted coup? Seriously?

[bigsky]

This whole summer was a narrative by nothing more then terrorist trying to force the government to give in!
What was Seattle? It was an attempt to overthrow the government.

Yes

[bigsky]

Attempted coup? Seriously?
A failed actor who lives with his Mother has been elevated to “coup leader”.

[Catfan73]

The president tried to kill the Vice President. Sounds like a coup to me.

Everyone that had a cell phone on them while in the Capital Wednesday will eventually be having a little talk with the FBI, and some of them are probably already under surveillance. This is far from over.

[ukpumacat]

A failed actor who lives with his Mother has been elevated to “coup leader”.

Oh no...he was no leader. Just a deranged racist following "orders". That's what many of them keep telling authorities.

[ukpumacat]

Attempted coup? Seriously?

Fwiw, I absolutely believe this was an attempted coup. But, set aside that for a moment.

The messaging coming from some Republican leaders right now (and conservative pundits) is a disaster. Every time I see one of these folks go on tv and downplay it....I smile as a Dem.
And for 4-5 days now, I keep seeing it.
Some are going on and distancing themselves from it as far as possible. THAT is the right move. Condemn it in the strongest terms. And distance yourself as far as possible. "I had no idea it would get this bad". "No one could have seen this coming", "Trump is responsible", etc etc.
Those things are not true....but that is the correct messaging. I have seen many do this and its smart.

But the few I have seen go on tv (and some of the comments on here) of playing it down? That is a disaster.

More and more info is going to come out about this. More and more stories and videos and pictures. More and more arrests are going to be made. And more and more background and past history about many of these people are going to come out. Republicans need to get as far away from all of that as possible now because its going to get uglier and uglier.

But this whole, "that was no coup", "What about Seattle?", "protest gone overboard is all", "they aren't MAGA" messaging is simply not going to work with the vast majority of Americans who watched that and were horrified.

We all literally watched as the MAGA crowd cheered on Trump at his speech....then walked to the Capitol....then stormed the Capitol. With weapons. Shouting "Stop the Steal". Shouting "Hang Mike Pence". Building Gallows. Destroying media equipment. And beating cops to death with an American flag.
Like, we literally all WATCHED that happen. In order. Thousands and thousands of people.
Trying to play that down is plain lunacy Imo.

It would be like watching 9/11 and saying, "that was no attack". "I didn't see any tanks, did you?" "That was just a hijacking gone bad is all". "Sure, violence is never ok but did you see those riots after that Rodney King guy?"

Again, on this message board it doesn't matter. And of course everyone has the right to believe what they want. I am just saying that the Republican leaders/pundits who are doing the whole dismiss and pivot ("Of course violence is wrong but did you see that George Floyd protest?") are screwing the pooch because the majority of Americans simply are not going to hear that. Its a messaging mistake of huge proportions imo.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Its a messaging mistake of huge proportions imo.

Agreed, and IMO, it's a clear delineation of where one stands. This is NOT the time for 'whataboutism' and burying your head in the sand.

From what I can conclude is that it is NOT a coup if you sympathize with them.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

The president tried to kill the Vice President. Sounds like a coup to me.

Everyone that had a cell phone on them while in the Capital Wednesday will eventually be having a little talk with the FBI, and some of them are probably already under surveillance. This is far from over.

I'll phrase that a bit differently, but the sentiment is similar.

The President was indifferent of known plans to kill HIS Vice President.

He told them that he 'loved them' just days that he said he would like his VP 'a lot less' if he didn't follow his orders. It still boggles my mind that people that really like Pence (especially relative to Trump) are just casually sweeping this under the rug.

[ukpumacat]

This is an amazing statement from a prominent evangelical leader who sits on the board of the Southern Baptist Convention.

I will highlight two quick parts that are excellent:

If you read nothing else, read this: If you can defend this, you can defend anything. If you can wave this away with “well, what about…” or by changing the subject to a private platform removing an account inciting violence as “Orwellian,” then where, at long last, is your limit?


You will hear people saying that for the sake of “unity” we should quietly put such things away. God forbid. The unity of the people cannot come with a lack of accountability. The police do not have the option to ignore these mobs. The Congress does not have the option to ignore their constitutional obligations on high crimes and misdemeanors. The Vice President and the Cabinet cannot put aside questions of their responsibilities for fear of their futures. To hope that this all will just quietly go away and resolve itself is to incite future terrorists and is to do exactly what the Bible forbids—to “justify the wicked and to condemn the righteous” (Prov. 17:15).


Unity demands accountability. Justice demands accountability. Without such, all we are left with is “lawlessness leading to more lawlessness” (Rom. 6:19).
You don’t have to agree with me. I might be wrong. I don’t speak for anyone else, only myself. But you deserve to hear from me what I honestly think. If I were the President, I would resign. If I were the Vice President, I would assemble the cabinet in accordance with the 25th Amendment. If I were a Member of Congress, I would vote to impeach. And if I were a United States senator, I would vote to convict. And I would be willing, if necessary, to lose my seat to do so. As a matter of fact, I am willing, if necessary, to lose this seat.



Is that easy? No. Will people say you’re a “closet liberal.” Yes. Will people threaten “psychological warfare” or conduct endless investigations against you? Maybe. Will people send threats to kill you and your family or to destroy your reputation and ministry? Perhaps.

https://erlcemailcommunication.cmail20.com/t/ViewEmail/r/CFCAFA07E46FD7912540EF23F30FEDED/D7938FCF0A3B794C78EAE85EE68EA635

[ukpumacat]

Karl Rove on Fox: "the president should not have given that speech and was wrong to give that speech and what happened afterwards was a result of what he said"

[anderwt]

Who do you think stopped the national Guard?

Capitol Police chief sought DC National Guard help before riots – but was denied by supervisors: report

https://www.foxnews.com/us/capitol-police-chief-sought-dc-national-guard-help-before-riots

Explore the Fox News apps that are right for you at http://www.foxnews.com/apps-products/index.html.

[ukpumacat]

Who do you think stopped the national Guard?

Capitol Police chief sought DC National Guard help before riots – but was denied by supervisors: report

https://www.foxnews.com/us/capitol-police-chief-sought-dc-national-guard-help-before-riots

Explore the Fox News apps that are right for you at http://www.foxnews.com/apps-products/index.html.

And rebuffed allowing Maryland's National Guard who waited hours at the DC border for approval from the Pentagon and Administration.

https://www.axios.com/gov-larry-hogan-dc-capitol-siege-trump-744113ec-45a8-4d71-992d-e8162487547a.html

[ukpumacat]

Could be because Republican Ben Sasse says according to White House aides he talked to....Trump was "Delighted" at the mob sieging the Capitol.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/533403-sasse-says-trump-was-delighted-and-excited-by-reports-of-capitol-riot

[anderwt]

This could have been stopped and we wouldn’t have egg on our face.. I’m so pissed off..

[StuBleedsBlue2]

This could have been stopped and we wouldn’t have egg on our face.. I’m so pissed off..

Could it?

Maybe the Capitol scene, but something was bound to happen, because it's BEEN happening during Trump's Presidency. Even people that finally turned because of the actions last week are still in denial about the role these groups played in the summer riots.

I ask this question with absolute respect, but how was it going to be stopped? Nobody was listening, and plenty of people were shouting, including Republicans. The people in power to stop chose not to, and that primary reason was so they wouldn't lose the support of their constituents. Trump supporters called the Republicans standing in opposition the worst things possible.

I think it became too late to stop when Trump said he could stand on 5th Ave and shoot someone and the GOP supported him. I think there will be a time where there will be GOP soul-searching and watch all of the things we have been watching for years and say how did we not see this. At least I hope so.

[catmanjack]

Will never be any form of unity like that!

[StuBleedsBlue2]

It's interesting that after 9/11, GWB had a nearly 90% approval rate. Think about that. Brown, non-Christian terrorists kill 5,000 people and 90% of the country can unite around their leader.

Fast forward 20 years later. On the heels of 350k deaths that could've been mostly avoided, the President of the United States issues a Call to Action that leads to white domestic terrorists to overtake the Capitol and the best we can get is 2/3 of the people to unite against the cause.

We have some serious problems in our country that goes beyond racism, bigotry and xenophobia.

[anderwt]

Several capital police going to jail over this.. as they should.. they took a selfie.. some of them let it happen..

[Doc]

Karl Rove on Fox: "the president should not have given that speech and was wrong to give that speech and what happened afterwards was a result of what he said"

So now you take advice from Karl Rove.

Should not is one thing. Being illegal is another. Sort of like "I should not have ordered that second pitcher of beer but is nothing illegal about it"

Likewise Allen Dershowitz claims there is no impeachable action. Doing something you should not do is not necessarily illegal.

[Doc]

Could be because Republican Ben Sasse says according to White House aides he talked to....Trump was "Delighted" at the mob sieging the Capitol.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/533403-sasse-says-trump-was-delighted-and-excited-by-reports-of-capitol-riot

Again, where is the illegality in that? Liberal were delighted with the Hart building was stormed last year. Likewise they were delighted and encouraged the BLM riots. I too was delighted to see Conservatives grow some balls. I was not delighted when the broke into the capitol, however civil involvement and making your opinion known is something I do delight in seeing.

And since "words matter"... it does not say Trump was delighted by the "siegeing" of the capitol. He was reported delighted by the Capitol demonstration. He advocated for that... in a PEACEFUL manner, and that the demonstration be PEACEFUL. Those were his words, words that matter.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I find it simply astonishing that people are actually defending Trump. He is now on record (while taking no questions from reports, in his typical cowardly way) basically saying the Capitol siege is no big deal, his words were "totally appropriate" and that Seattle and Portland is the real problem. Sharing the sentiment of people on this board.

Just f'n nuts.

In other news, somewhere Susan Collins is saying that Trump has learned his lesson.

[ukpumacat]

In other news, somewhere Susan Collins is saying that Trump has learned his lesson.

Ha

[Genuine Realist]

This is an amazing statement from a prominent evangelical leader who sits on the board of the Southern Baptist Convention.

I will highlight two quick parts that are excellent:

If you read nothing else, read this: If you can defend this, you can defend anything. If you can wave this away with “well, what about…” or by changing the subject to a private platform removing an account inciting violence as “Orwellian,” then where, at long last, is your limit?


You will hear people saying that for the sake of “unity” we should quietly put such things away. God forbid. The unity of the people cannot come with a lack of accountability. The police do not have the option to ignore these mobs. The Congress does not have the option to ignore their constitutional obligations on high crimes and misdemeanors. The Vice President and the Cabinet cannot put aside questions of their responsibilities for fear of their futures. To hope that this all will just quietly go away and resolve itself is to incite future terrorists and is to do exactly what the Bible forbids—to “justify the wicked and to condemn the righteous” (Prov. 17:15).


Unity demands accountability. Justice demands accountability. Without such, all we are left with is “lawlessness leading to more lawlessness” (Rom. 6:19).
You don’t have to agree with me. I might be wrong. I don’t speak for anyone else, only myself. But you deserve to hear from me what I honestly think. If I were the President, I would resign. If I were the Vice President, I would assemble the cabinet in accordance with the 25th Amendment. If I were a Member of Congress, I would vote to impeach. And if I were a United States senator, I would vote to convict. And I would be willing, if necessary, to lose my seat to do so. As a matter of fact, I am willing, if necessary, to lose this seat.



Is that easy? No. Will people say you’re a “closet liberal.” Yes. Will people threaten “psychological warfare” or conduct endless investigations against you? Maybe. Will people send threats to kill you and your family or to destroy your reputation and ministry? Perhaps.

https://erlcemailcommunication.cmail20.com/t/ViewEmail/r/CFCAFA07E46FD7912540EF23F30FEDED/D7938FCF0A3B794C78EAE85EE68EA635
Retired county prosecutor me would put Trump's conduct in front of a grand jury, with the intent to seek an indictment for treason/sedition. Impeachment isn't good enough. In the 18th or 19th Century, this would be a death penalty case.

AND I would also have been indicting and prosecuting all along malefactors who committed crimes such as arson and vandalism during the summer. You do not let such stuff pass without a reaction. Moynihan famously called that 'dumbing deviancy down', and he's right. It's the inner city community that suffers from that.

But Trump's crime was significant greater - and more frightening - than anything that happened during the spring and summer. I'm no Democrat - I think Trump is actually the creation of the Democrats' abandonment of some of their core constituencies, rather than the GOP. I never liked him - he obviously has problems with narcissism and a swollen ego.

But I never, EVER thought he'd descend to the depths he reached.

[ukpumacat]

Retired county prosecutor me would put Trump's conduct in front of a grand jury, with the intent to seek an indictment for treason/sedition. Impeachment isn't good enough. In the 18th or 19th Century, this would be a death penalty case.

AND I would also have been indicting and prosecuting all along malefactors who committed crimes such as arson and vandalism during the summer. You do not let such stuff pass without a reaction. Moynihan famously called that 'dumbing deviancy down', and he's right. It's the inner city community that suffers from that.

But Trump's crime was significant greater - and more frightening - than anything that happened during the spring and summer. I'm no Democrat - I think Trump is actually the creation of the Democrats' abandonment of some of their core constituencies, rather than the GOP. I never liked him - he obviously has problems with narcissism and a swollen ego.

But I never, EVER thought he'd descend to the depths he reached.

Well said....I agree with everything except for your last line.
As in, I did think he could descend to this depth. Many of us have tried to talk about this for years. And call me crazy...but I don't think he has reached his floor.

[Doc]

Retired county prosecutor me would put Trump's conduct in front of a grand jury, with the intent to seek an indictment for treason/sedition. Impeachment isn't good enough. In the 18th or 19th Century, this would be a death penalty case.

AND I would also have been indicting and prosecuting all along malefactors who committed crimes such as arson and vandalism during the summer. You do not let such stuff pass without a reaction. Moynihan famously called that 'dumbing deviancy down', and he's right. It's the inner city community that suffers from that.

But Trump's crime was significant greater - and more frightening - than anything that happened during the spring and summer. I'm no Democrat - I think Trump is actually the creation of the Democrats' abandonment of some of their core constituencies, rather than the GOP. I never liked him - he obviously has problems with narcissism and a swollen ego.

But I never, EVER thought he'd descend to the depths he reached.

Good thing that isn't your job. Me, I always believed in innocent until proven guilty.... and I have yet to see anything that shows Trump encourage or promoted violence. I've only seen him ask for peaceful protest, something the Constitution allows, and him LEGALLY challenge an election. In the past democrats have legally challenged elections but I don't recall charges of sedition and treason..

As for Trumps actions being worse than what happened over the summer...I guess your business wasn't burned to the ground. Were it, I suspect you might think that was far worse.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Well said....I agree with everything except for your last line.
As in, I did think he could descend to this depth. Many of us have tried to talk about this for years. And call me crazy...but I don't think he has reached his floor.

I completely agree with you as well that the only thing I disagreed with was that he was totally capable of descending to such depths . I was going to react with something similar, but paused as I didn't want to appear like I needed to be right (sarcasm).

We have been trying to say this for years and people way above our pay grades, access and influence have been as well. I still highly recommend for anyone that did not see this coming or believed he was incapable of doing such things, check out Michael Cohen's podcast, Mea Culpa. I do not think there is a person alive that knows him better and is open about it.