How will things operate in the Senate when there is no majority

[dan_bgblue]

There is no majority leader right? The fake minority female does not step into that spot right? Do the 100 vote on someone to run the Senate?

[kingcat]

The VP casts the deciding votes

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Chuck Schumer is the new majority leader. All of the committees will be chaired by Democrats.

[ukpumacat]

Chuck Schumer is the new majority leader. All of the committees will be chaired by Democrats.

Correct. This is why who you caucus with as an independent has consequences.

[dan_bgblue]

Chuck Schumer is the new majority leader. All of the committees will be chaired by Democrats.

Would you please splain that so I can understand?

[Catfan73]

The new Senate has already begun, they start a couple of weeks before the presidential inauguration. Mitch is now minority leader.

[dan_bgblue]

Since there is an equal number from both sides of the aisle in the Senate how can a 50-50 split have a majority and a minority?

[Catfan73]

As for whether there is a majority present or not, they don’t need a majority but merely a quorum (51). And they usually operate on far less than that being present unless someone objects.

[kingcat]

I'll post a clip from NBC. To be clear to others, the extra content on relief or the like is not why I'm posting. Just for the explanation Dan asked for..

"The presumptive incoming Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., has promised "bold change" that begins with Covid-19 pandemic relief. He will soon seize control of the chamber from Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and have the power to decide what legislation and nominations are voted on.


But Schumer will be limited by a slim majority and a 60-vote threshold for most bills. He'll be able to bypass that under the budget process for some items, which will be the key to advancing major progressive legislation in a Democratic-controlled Washington.

With runoff wins in Georgia for Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff projected by NBC News, the Democratic caucus will number 50 senators, thanks to two independents, Bernie Sanders and Angus King who caucus with the Democrats. The party will control the chamber due to the tiebreaking vote of Vice President-elect Kamala Harris, a stunning twist of fate for Republicans who overperformed on Election Day and at first appeared set to hold the majority"
..NBC News (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/georgia-made-schumer-the-presumptive-majority-leader-hes-promising-bold-change/ar-BB1czMPu?ocid=uxbndlbing)

[Catfan73]

Since there is an equal number from both sides of the aisle in the Senate how can a 50-50 split have a majority and a minority?

In the event of ties, the Vice President also votes. For 12 more days that is still Mike Pence.

[ukpumacat]

Since there is an equal number from both sides of the aisle in the Senate how can a 50-50 split have a majority and a minority?

As explained below, whoever was the VP would be the tie-breaking vote. So, that party becomes the "majority". And that gives them the majority leader and control of the committees and agendas.
This happened after the 2000 election. And Republicans were the majority even though it was a 50-50 split because the VP was Cheney. A little bit later a Vermont Senator became an independent and caucused with Dems, so the majority leader changed mid-stream.

Fwiw, sounds like Murkowski will become an independent. If she does its expected she will caucus with the Dems and give them a 51-49 majority. That will not matter in votes (because she will vote how she wants) but it would matter in 2022 when Republicans try to take back majority.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

For Republicans not paying attention to what happened in the Senate for the better part of the last 10 years and think that the filibuster will prevent Democrats from passing meaningful spending legislation will also need to understand that the Democrats will use the same rules as McConnell did to pass things under budget reconciliation.

Unlike 2009-10 where there was not a single issue (Obamacare) where the Democrats spent all of their political capital and got destroyed in the 2010 mid-terms, there is consensus between leaders in the Senate and the House to pass as much as they can to make life better for people that are struggling.

Get ready...

Elections have consequences.

[catmanjack]

Meaning I will have to pay higher taxes!

[TRUCKERCATFAN]

Unfortunately it’s currently a 50/50 tie which means the VP is the deciding vote. Sadly that means Willie Brown’s whore Kamala will be breaking that tie.

[catmanjack]

Not good at all!

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Meaning I will have to pay higher taxes!

I would think there are worse things to worry about if you’re making over $400k.

I’m also way more worried about the horrible ROI on my tax dollars seeing how easy it is for terrorists to take over our Capitol. We all deserve a refund for the horrible security. We can spend that $700 billion much better.

[catmanjack]

I see you actually believe that higher taxes will only come into play for the 400k

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I see you actually believe that higher taxes will only come into play for the 400k

Why wouldn’t I?

Why would you believe otherwise?

The only reason why they would increase is because the paltry middle class tax cuts are set to expire, but those will be extended or made permanent.

[TRUCKERCATFAN]

Why wouldn’t I?

Why would you believe otherwise?

The only reason why they would increase is because the paltry middle class tax cuts are set to expire, but those will be extended or made permanent.

So you believe Dementia Joe Biden when he says taxes only go up on those making over $400K. Of course I guess you believed him saying he wanted to unite the country and be president for all Americans yet he’s made it perfectly clear the last two days that what he truly thinks of the 75 million people who didn’t vote for him.

Keep eating that liberal bullshit. They’ll keep feeding it to you.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

So you believe Dementia Joe Biden when he says taxes only go up on those making over $400K. Of course I guess you believed him saying he wanted to unite the country and be president for all Americans yet he’s made it perfectly clear the last two days that what he truly thinks of the 75 million people who didn’t vote for him.

Keep eating that liberal bullshit. They’ll keep feeding it to you.

Have you read Biden’s tax plan? If it’s “liberal bullshit”, then explain to me why it is and if you’re incapable of doing so, I’ll just chalk it up to right wing bullshit.

[TRUCKERCATFAN]

Have you read Biden’s tax plan? If it’s “liberal bullshit”, then explain to me why it is and if you’re incapable of doing so, I’ll just chalk it up to right wing bullshit.

Chalk it up to whatever you want. Makes no difference to me. And yes I’ve read his plan.

You aren’t gonna change my mind about any Democrat politicians. They are all elitist scum as are many Republican leaders. If that makes me right wing crazy, so be it!

[catmanjack]

It’s funny you say that but everyone has stated taxes will increase under Biden not matter how you look at it, this was being said on election night.
Will they I strongly believe they will but that is to be seen.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

It’s funny you say that but everyone has stated taxes will increase under Biden not matter how you look at it, this was being said on election night.
Will they I strongly believe they will but that is to be seen.

Who is everybody? I’ve read his entire tax plan, have you? I welcome you to point out where it says in his plan where he plans to raise taxes on families making less than $400k.

That’s all that I am asking. If “everyone” is saying it, it should be easy to answer my questions.

[Catonahottinroof]

If they own the apartment you rent, the business you frequent, you will pay it too, just indirectly.

Who is everybody? I’ve read his entire tax plan, have you? I welcome you to point out where it says in his plan where he plans to raise taxes on families making less than $400k.

That’s all that I am asking. If “everyone” is saying it, it should be easy to answer my questions.

[bigsky]

Removing the stepped up basis raises taxes on anyone who inherits any asset, no matter their income.

[bigsky]

So their is one very easy answer.

[GhettoBird]

Who is everybody? I’ve read his entire tax plan, have you? I welcome you to point out where it says in his plan where he plans to raise taxes on families making less than $400k.

That’s all that I am asking. If “everyone” is saying it, it should be easy to answer my questions.

Stu I have not read his plan entirely, I like most expect everyone’s taxes to go up. What exactly is his plan? Or where can I find a good summation of the plan?

[StuBleedsBlue2]

If they own the apartment you rent, the business you frequent, you will pay it too, just indirectly.

Possibly, but that will be offset by the numerous other tax credits proposed. That’s how the tax system works when there is change.

EDIT: What do you think Trump’s tariffs did to our paltry tax cuts? Have you seen the numbers of farmers revenues lately?

[catmanjack]

Well Stu is and has never been wrong in his life.
Taxes will go up either directly or indirectly but the middle income will feel the pain.
Biden wants to give money to everyone.
Free healthcare, huge green deal.
Those policies will raise taxes.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Well Stu is and has never been wrong in his life.
Taxes will go up either directly or indirectly but the middle income will feel the pain.
Biden wants to give money to everyone.
Free healthcare, huge green deal.
Those policies will raise taxes.

I have been wrong plenty of times in my life, especially this week when I THOUGHT that people would finally accept what folks like me have been saying for years that Trump is an authoritarian that doesn’t care about Democracy and would burn our country down for his self interests.

I was wrong again (and so were so many that are posting here about the events of this week) that this is a small(er) segment of the Republican Party. I’ve seen people here say it as the insurgence is limited to 50 whack jobs. I KNOW the number is bigger than that. It’s definitely not 74 million, which Puma, I and others have been accused of saying.

New polling came out this morning that said 45% of identified Republicans support the insurrection on the Capitol. Let’s say there’s a 10% MOE. That means there are about 27 million + traitors living in this country.

While I laughed at the number of 50, I knew it wasn’t 74 million. Honestly, I thought it was closer to 3-4 million.

Man, was I wrong..

I see a theme for me today. I’m going to provide stories about what I have been wrong about.

One thing that I am NOT wrong about is Joe Biden’s tax plan.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Free healthcare, huge green deal.
Those policies will raise taxes.

Not on you and me. Feel free to provide evidence that it will.

Just because you say it doesn’t make it true.

[Catfan73]

The effects of Biden’s proposals kind of depend on whom you ask. Basically though if you make less than $400,000 per year your taxes won’t go up and may in fact slightly decrease according to some tax experts. Others say that with corporate taxes going up those costs will merely be passed along to consumers.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/08/how-joe-bidebsproposals-also-have-the-potential-to-affect-holders-of-stocks-and-bonds.html

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Stu I have not read his plan entirely, I like most expect everyone’s taxes to go up. What exactly is his plan? Or where can I find a good summation of the plan?

Here is a good summation (https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/602047/joe-biden-tax-plans-for-the-next-few-years)

I have to ask, though. Could you please tell me WHY you expect everyone's taxes to go up?

I've asked multiple people and all I have gotten is "liberal bullshit", or one scenario where pass through costs might possibly affect a very small percentage of people if this or that may happen that completely ignores that Biden's tax plan (as explained in this Kiplinger analysis) plans to address that potential effect.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

The effects of Biden’s proposals kind of depend on whom you ask. Basically though if you make less than $400,000 per year your taxes won’t go up and may in fact slightly decrease according to some tax experts. Others say that with corporate taxes going up those costs will merely be passed along to consumers.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/08/how-joe-bidebsproposals-also-have-the-potential-to-affect-holders-of-stocks-and-bonds.html

That seems to be where the weak argument that a couple of folks here have suggested, but that completely ignores, or a better phrasing, makes some really far-fetched assumptions that causes that particular argument fall apart.

1) The corporate tax argument that raising the tax rate will automatically pass through to everyone makes the assumption that we ALL received the benefits of the pass through of the corporate tax cut to begin with. That is completely false. 2/3's of the corporate tax cuts went to stock buy backs. Even more went to executive compensation and bonuses that were tied to the performance of the stock.

2) Biden's proposed tax hike on the corporate tax rate is NOT back to its original 35%. It is only back to 28% from 21%. If there is a negative pass-through effect on the ordinary worker, that is because of corporate greed. The 28% tax rate is not arbitrary. It is designed to negate the potential impact of such pass-through. Considering that the increase is only half of the original increase and you compare that to how much was used for the buybacks and executive compensation, the net effect of reducing the rate from 35% to 28% is absolutely enough for companies not to have to pass that through to workers.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I did find something in Biden's tax plan that I think everyone can agree with, but I am probably wrong on this too:

From the previously linked Kiplinger's analysis:

In addition, Biden's health care plan calls for a tax penalty on pharmaceutical companies that increase drug costs by more than the rate of inflation and taking away their deduction for advertising expenses.

I rarely use the word hate, but I HATE, HATE, HATE pharmaceutical advertising. In my past working for a very large advertising company, I have seen how much money they waste and we are all bombarded with that advertising non-stop and it disgusts me that these are tax deductions.

I will add, any plan that actually can cap the costs of drug prices will be a greater boon to average citizens, especially over the age of 40, than any tax cut in the history of our nation. The inflation cap is a start, but it does nothing to address the price gouging of the past.

[catmanjack]

See even when trying to discuss simple topics Stu you act as a complete ass and treat everyone as you are so superior and that’s not a good trait.
I assume you are older then 12 so respect everyone and their views.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

See even when trying to discuss simple topics Stu you act as a complete ass and treat everyone as you are so superior and that’s not a good trait.
I assume you are older then 12 so respect everyone and their views.

What are you talking about? This makes no sense at all.

I have asked simple questions to try to illicit debate, and for the most part, I am getting responses like this.

Please give me an example of how I am acting like an ass or treat myself as superior and I will try to work on it, and I am asking this sincerely.

Have you not seen some of the responses that I receive? Telling me I am full of bullshit doesn't fit what you described of me?

Besides, I have politely asked you questions in the debate and you won't answer them and resort to name calling.

[kingcat]

Let's keep the conversations cordial or we will have to start whacking posts here. Do not attack the participants. Address the substance of their post.

Maybe even some of mine who knows. :)

[TRUCKERCATFAN]

See even when trying to discuss simple topics Stu you act as a complete ass and treat everyone as you are so superior and that’s not a good trait.
I assume you are older then 12 so respect everyone and their views.

👏👏👏👏

[StuBleedsBlue2]

See even when trying to discuss simple topics Stu you act as a complete ass and treat everyone as you are so superior and that’s not a good trait.
I assume you are older then 12 so respect everyone and their views.

So now that we all know, once again, that you think I am a complete ass and I act like I am superior, which BTW I strongly disagree with. I only act like a partial ass and I am only moderately superior (a total joke, btw) :winking0011:

Let's try again...

Do you want to respond to my simple asks, that were sincerely (without condescension) asked?

If not, I am totally fine moving on from this particular topic within the conversation, pending any other responses. I have said what I have said, but am left unfulfilled from follow-ups. I am not looking for agreement, just a well thought out response with SOME supporting evidence.

Am I really that off base to ask the simple questions WHY someone feels a particular way?

[catmanjack]

I think you have very valid points but in no way know how to convey them.
Not only politics but even when discussing UK.
You just come across wrongly.

[catmanjack]

There is zero way to fund and give to everyone without raising taxes.

[Catfan73]

On a conventional basis, the Biden tax plan by 2030 would lead to about 7.7 percent less after-tax income for the top 1 percent of taxpayers and about a 1.9 percent decline in after-tax income for all taxpayers on average. https://taxfoundation.org/joe-biden-tax-plan-2020/

This is a great example of making stats say what you want them to say. While it may be 100% accurate that on average all taxpayers’ income would decline by 1.9%, it’s very misleading because most would not see their income decline at all. It just goes to show how much the ultra-wealthy are not paying currently. But of course there are people running around shouting about how the sky is falling.

[kingcat]

Some on both sides would say that there is no way to have dealt with covid and plunging historically farther and farther into debt and not see a tax increase somewhere. That's the sad truth of the matter. We may be able to borrow from Mary to pay Paul or visa versa for a while but money has to come from somewhere.
That is regardless of who is leading the country.

As of September the national debt had increased nearly $7 trillion in less than four years. Under Mr trump it has climbed from $19.95 trillion to $26.73 trillion, and that's without the negative impact of a recession. Covid is partly responsible as that debt is about to increase again substantially, and that money has to come from somewhere eventually. Even the interest is an almost untenable number.\
But even prior to covid, the debt had soared to $23 trillion in January.

Still, this is still not the time to worry too much about what happened to the national debt. That time will come however.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I think you have very valid points but in no way know how to convey them.
Not only politics but even when discussing UK.
You just come across wrongly.

You are certainly entitled to your perception, but that does not entitle you to start calling me names. I can absolutely say the same thing that you feel about me to you and several other posters without (mostly) crossing that line. In the instances where I have, I have apologized but rarely have been afforded the same treatment.

Only one person of differing points of view on this board has ever come to my defense publicly. Ironically, my last exchange before I said I was leaving the board, happened to be with him and the one that pushed me out as I decided to take the advice I offered him. This is another topic, though.


There is zero way to fund and give to everyone without raising taxes.

You are right. Taxes will be raised on those making over $400k. The middle class will be fine. I will give you that there will be a time where we ALL will have to face the day of greater taxes. However, that is NOT what Biden is proposing.

You can make the case that maybe Biden's plan may kick the can down the road someday, but every President's tax plan has done that too. You can make the case that any tax cut may be passed through that will eventually impact people's pocketbook, but every tax cut has that impact as well (my tax obligations increased under the most recent tax cuts due to the SALT limitations forced me to take a lesser standard deduction). Again, Biden's plan has attempted to address as many of those as possible.

As I have said earlier in this thread that any tax reform has instances where a particular group of people may see some negative impact. Biden's plan actually addresses many of these instances. All of them? Impossible. However, from my analysis (which includes analysis from left leaning, right leaning and moderate sources), I have concluded that this plan will actually work to reduce taxes on ordinary average Americans and I am definitely not alone in that assessment.

Here is one thing that I am completely confident in, and have data to back that up (obviously a lot of that is based on projections as of now, but there is historical parallels that you can reasonably use to accurately project), is that if passed, the Biden tax plan will have a greater positive impact for American families making less $400k than the GOP tax cuts that are set to expire for those same families in the next two years.

[kingcat]

At some point soon we may have to heed a little of the fiscal advice of our libertarian friends and go into cost cutting mode in operating the federal government. Despite what some people believe, neither this administration..nor the previous one worked toward that end.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

At some point soon we may have to heed a little of the fiscal advice of our libertarian friends and go into cost cutting mode in operating the federal government. Despite what some people believe, neither this administration..nor the previous one worked toward that end.

Oh, absolutely agreed. IMO, it should start with the defense budget. I don't know how anyone can be happy with the ROI after seeing our Capitol taken over by enemies of state.

Back in 2016, I used to talk with many of my bright friends on the left about what Trump may actually be able to do effectively by bringing in people with a business approach (we never included him as that expert) and part of that was creating efficiencies in government, the other being infrastructure. Working for a major consulting firm in the Public Sector, I can definitely point to where there is significant efficiencies and digital business transformation but that was predominantly driven by the private sector and not the expertise of the Trump administration.

Sadly, another thing that I was wrong about. Defense spending and infrastructure are both worse off than they were 4 years ago and it is only going to be costlier to fix it.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

On a conventional basis, the Biden tax plan by 2030 would lead to about 7.7 percent less after-tax income for the top 1 percent of taxpayers and about a 1.9 percent decline in after-tax income for all taxpayers on average. https://taxfoundation.org/joe-biden-tax-plan-2020/

This is a great example of making stats say what you want them to say. While it may be 100% accurate that on average all taxpayers’ income would decline by 1.9%, it’s very misleading because most would not see their income decline at all. It just goes to show how much the ultra-wealthy are not paying currently. But of course there are people running around shouting about how the sky is falling.

Exactly, which is why analyzing the median is so important. I suspect that was left out of this analysis because it DOES show the significant gap between how much the uber wealthy and the average citizen makes.