Republican Civil War?

[ukpumacat]

I am asking this as an honest question and not hyperbole.


I ask because of this rally today in Georgia: https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1334227769115484161?s=20

Sidney Powell and Lin Wood both are telling very very loyal Trump supporters not to vote for Loeffler or Perdue. It will not take very many Republicans staying home to give those two seats to the Dems.

Which begs the question: what happens over the next 4 years?

Republicans had a mini-Civil War with the Tea Party several years back. Will that happen again with Trumpism?

I have no doubt Trump will declare for 2024 to raise money to pay off debt. I am not so positive he actually runs. But, if he does, what happens? Many Republican candidates cannot call him out and hold their seats in the primary. But, the road he is taking the party down right now isn't a winning one.

What do you guys think will happen over the next several years in this regard?

[Catfan73]

It’s mind boggling the level of fealty these people demand that they would jeopardize control of the Senate just to prove their point that Trump is the only way. In recent history the Republican Party has been a combination of different factions...social conservatives, free market believers, foreign policy hawks...Trump is none of those yet his followers are intent on making the party theirs. I don’t see it lasting much past Jan. 20th.

[Catonahottinroof]

The left had its own civil war with the squad, BLM and the very hard left wanting socialism at any cost. It didn’t accomplish much as they were rewarded with Biden.
Id bet Trump will persist with 2024 for one simple reason....the market is going to correct, or crash within the next 4 years and it won’t be on his watch.

[catmanjack]

The economic side will truly be a thing to watch.

[catmanjack]

I wish I was retiring this year while the market is up to help my 401K.

[Catfan73]

We’re pretty certain to have a correction soon but they usually only last about six months while the bull markets typically last for years so the chances of a downturn in 2024 are historically pretty slim. I kind of like the big dips, that when stocks are on the clearance rack. Of course if you’re close to retiring, best to avoid the dip.

[ukpumacat]

The left had its own civil war with the squad, BLM and the very hard left wanting socialism at any cost. It didn’t accomplish much as they were rewarded with Biden.
Id bet Trump will persist with 2024 for one simple reason....the market is going to correct, or crash within the next 4 years and it won’t be on his watch.

Well, they didn't but certainly will at some point. Trump solidified the party big time. If Biden had of lost, you would have seen one for sure. And "Civil War" is a strong term but it happens and it can be a good thing. Just curious how this all plays out.

[Catonahottinroof]

The burning and looting of businesses and the tacit approval of some on the left, mayors in particular fomented it....and it’s not going to be a good thing when it comes down to brass tacks, because a good portion of this country is armed and loaded and are the ones buying ammunition that is in short supply at the moment.

Well, they didn't but certainly will at some point. Trump solidified the party big time. If Biden had of lost, you would have seen one for sure. And "Civil War" is a strong term but it happens and it can be a good thing. Just curious how this all plays out.

[ukpumacat]

The burning and looting of businesses and the tacit approval of some on the left, mayors in particular fomented it....and it’s not going to be a good thing when it comes down to brass tacks, because a good portion of this country is armed and loaded and are the ones buying ammunition that is in short supply at the moment.

I think I should be clear. I don't mean an "Actual" civil war. I meant it figuratively. As in, a political divide in the party for power.

[Catonahottinroof]

At their moment, I’m not sure I can separate the two....

I think I should be clear. I don't mean an "Actual" civil war. I meant it figuratively. As in, a political divide in the party for power.

[ukpumacat]

At their moment, I’m not sure I can separate the two....

Understood. But, I can. I wasn't asking if Trumpers and Republicans will start firing bullets. I just wonder whether there will be a serious external fight for power of the party.

It is very very unusual to hold a press conference and tell your supporters to NOT vote for the Republican candidates. Trump is about Trump. He doesn't give two cents if those two are elected. And I think his tweets, videos, etc are going to hurt them.

[kingcat]

Deleted my last post. Suffice it to say such rhetoric is disappointing in America.
It's like stepping back in time eighty years or so.

[catmanjack]

I kind of am disappointed in America as she stands now, guy wearing dresses, the total laziness and lack of respect not a good look.

[ukpumacat]

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1334716976619421696?s=21

I guess it’s begun.

[VirginiaCat]

I have been very clear with local GOP leadership and even contacted Ronna McDaniel...

I amout of the GOP unless I see them stepping up and fully contesting this counts in NV, AZ, MI, WI, PA, and GA.

Stats do not lie. And the numbers over 4 Std. Dev. form the norm of the rest of the country. Video evidence in GA. Hundreds of people saying they witnessed fraud.

At a minimum, ZERO Signiture check or other verification of mail in ballots but did verify on voter rolls for those in person is a problem of equal treatment.

All the GOP should be screaming about.

They will lose AT LEAST 20 million voters if they do not step up and full press to ensure Biden is not POTUS. And I will be one of them.




I am asking this as an honest question and not hyperbole.


I ask because of this rally today in Georgia: https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1334227769115484161?s=20

Sidney Powell and Lin Wood both are telling very very loyal Trump supporters not to vote for Loeffler or Perdue. It will not take very many Republicans staying home to give those two seats to the Dems.

Which begs the question: what happens over the next 4 years?

Republicans had a mini-Civil War with the Tea Party several years back. Will that happen again with Trumpism?

I have no doubt Trump will declare for 2024 to raise money to pay off debt. I am not so positive he actually runs. But, if he does, what happens? Many Republican candidates cannot call him out and hold their seats in the primary. But, the road he is taking the party down right now isn't a winning one.

What do you guys think will happen over the next several years in this regard?

[ukpumacat]

I have been very clear with local GOP leadership and even contacted Ronna McDaniel...

I amout of the GOP unless I see them stepping up and fully contesting this counts in NV, AZ, MI, WI, PA, and GA.

Stats do not lie. And the numbers over 4 Std. Dev. form the norm of the rest of the country. Video evidence in GA. Hundreds of people saying they witnessed fraud.

At a minimum, ZERO Signiture check or other verification of mail in ballots but did verify on voter rolls for those in person is a problem of equal treatment.

All the GOP should be screaming about.

They will lose AT LEAST 20 million voters if they do not step up and full press to ensure Biden is not POTUS. And I will be one of them.

The lawsuits have been 1-41 in court so far. This election is not going to be overturned. I could easily go through state by state and show you precise facts to prove it. But, I won't. Because, I gotta tell you from a Dem perspective...this is the best of all worlds.

Because if there are more Republicans like you (and I suspect there are tons), Dems are going to win both seats in Georgia and have a majority.
And your comments seem to say that the divide in the party is very very real.

Its horrible strategy Imo, but its happening. And I would not be shocked in any way if there are Dems behind some of the misinformation out there getting Trumpers riled up.

[VirginiaCat]

The lawsuits have been 1-41 in court so far. This election is not going to be overturned. I could easily go through state by state and show you precise facts to prove it. But, I won't. Because, I gotta tell you from a Dem perspective...this is the best of all worlds.

Because if there are more Republicans like you (and I suspect there are tons), Dems are going to win both seats in Georgia and have a majority.
And your comments seem to say that the divide in the party is very very real.

Its horrible strategy Imo, but its happening. And I would not be shocked in any way if there are Dems behind some of the misinformation out there getting Trumpers riled up.

It is real.. and you are correct. the Trump people will not vote in GA.

Why, because the GOP are partly behind that court record. Lets be honest, the globalist elite of the GOP, the controling members, do not want Trump Either.

But in 2022 and 2024, look out. Both major parties will suck hind tit.

[ukpumacat]

If I were a Republican, this would frighten me to death.

And I don't agree about 2022 and 2024. Without a united Republican Party, Dems will win a substantial amount of elections.

Independents and moderate Republicans see all of this as crazy town. And solid Trump supporters will vilify any Republican who does not agree with them as "part of the establishment". Heck, Dan Crenshaw was under fire a couple of days ago for it: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/dec/4/michelle-malkin-brands-rep-dan-crenshaw-john-mccai/

Its all a recipe for political disaster.

And even though there are plenty of solid Trump supporters, there aren't nearly enough to carry any national or purple statewide races.

For 4 years those same Republicans rode Trump's coattails and refused to hold him at bay out of fear of exactly what is happening right now. But Trump doesn't care about the Republican Party. They let him roam free and now they are going to get bitten.

[VirginiaCat]

If I were a Republican, this would frighten me to death.

And I don't agree about 2022 and 2024. Without a united Republican Party, Dems will win a substantial amount of elections.

Independents and moderate Republicans see all of this as crazy town. And solid Trump supporters will vilify any Republican who does not agree with them as "part of the establishment". Heck, Dan Crenshaw was under fire a couple of days ago for it: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/dec/4/michelle-malkin-brands-rep-dan-crenshaw-john-mccai/

Its all a recipe for political disaster.

And even though there are plenty of solid Trump supporters, there aren't nearly enough to carry any national or purple statewide races.

For 4 years those same Republicans rode Trump's coattails and refused to hold him at bay out of fear of exactly what is happening right now. But Trump doesn't care about the Republican Party. They let him roam free and now they are going to get bitten.


What you call a moderate I call a globalist. That is the real fight in the GOP.

Traditional Globalist GOP vs. Populist GOP.

[Catonahottinroof]

The thing about that particular point is it encompasses many democratic voters as well.

What you call a moderate I call a globalist. That is the real fight in the GOP.

Traditional Globalist GOP vs. Populist GOP.

[dan_bgblue]

The globalist trend in the democratic party is one of my biggest issues with the policy they put forth. Even though he has a ton of faults, globalism is not one of the faults of our current president. Of all the traits that have made the United states one of the greatest countries in the world, globalism has not been one of them. Yes we have stuck our fingers into issues all over the world, but when we did it was to keep the USA strong and in a position of leadership in the world.

[ukpumacat]

What you call a moderate I call a globalist. That is the real fight in the GOP.

Traditional Globalist GOP vs. Populist GOP.

It doesn’t matter what you call them (and you may be right), it’s a simple mathematics problem.
Roughly 49% of voters are Democrats or lean Dem.
43% are Republican or lean Republican.

So, for a Republican to win in a National election (or a purple state vote) they HAVE to have all of those 43%. This includes the moderates or globalists or whatever else you want to call it.
We are a two party country right now. Until that changes, the only way to win is for a party to unite and work together to beat the other side.
What is happening in Georgia right now and with Trump supporters everywhere make it mathematically impossible to do this.

Maybe it’s all talk. Maybe Georgia voters come out all the same and vote Republican. But if you are trying to get your voters to come out and keep the Senate....telling them their Governor and SOS is a crook and they can’t trust the election process is a horrible strategy.

[VirginiaCat]

It doesn’t matter what you call them (and you may be right), it’s a simple mathematics problem.
Roughly 49% of voters are Democrats or lean Dem.
43% are Republican or lean Republican.

So, for a Republican to win in a National election (or a purple state vote) they HAVE to have all of those 43%. This includes the moderates or globalists or whatever else you want to call it.
We are a two party country right now. Until that changes, the only way to win is for a party to unite and work together to beat the other side.
What is happening in Georgia right now and with Trump supporters everywhere make it mathematically impossible to do this.

Maybe it’s all talk. Maybe Georgia voters come out all the same and vote Republican. But if you are trying to get your voters to come out and keep the Senate....telling them their Governor and SOS is a crook and they can’t trust the election process is a horrible strategy.

I understand your math but disagree with your premise. Overall percentages simply do not matter. It is the percentages in about 6-10 states that matter. And in those states it is more close to 55% conservative. The overall demographics of our country do not matter since large population centers like Cali, NY, and IL are 60% Blue.

But, i do understand what you are saying. If the R's are infighting, it is unlikely they can win.

For me, it is time to run the RINO's out of the party. Tell them they are not welcome.

[ukpumacat]

But, i do understand what you are saying. If the R's are infighting, it is unlikely they can win.

For me, it is time to run the RINO's out of the party. Tell them they are not welcome.

So if you do that, how can you win?

[VirginiaCat]

So if you do that, how can you win?

Temp setback for long term gain. I hope. But in the end, I do not want to simply align with someone or some party because they are a party. I want to be aligned on most (never going to be all) interests.

And the Romney/Flakes and others in the R party need to go away. Forever.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

So if you do that, how can you win?

They can't and I am perfectly fine with what it is that they are doing from a political standpoint. From a unity standpoint, it's terrible. Rush Limbaugh said what we all know how those on the right feel, that liberals and conservatives cannot live together. I don't believe that for a second, but I definitely believe that there is about 40-50 million Americans that think that.



Temp setback for long term gain. I hope. But in the end, I do not want to simply align with someone or some party because they are a party. I want to be aligned on most (never going to be all) interests.

And the Romney/Flakes and others in the R party need to go away. Forever.

Such an extreme POV, when combined with the rest of what you have posted, especially your desire to thwart Democracy and overturn the will of the people by invalidating an election that has been certified by every state and Republican leaders.

Getting rid of Romney, Flake, and the likes is extreme. They supported the Trump agenda. They support the Constitution (at least a Conservative interpretation of it). They do not support authoritarianism. That last point is the only difference between the two factions of the party.

Talk of overturning legitimate elections, secession and violence (not accusing you of saying all of this), but they are words of traitors.

What is the "long term gain" that you speak of? I am having trouble seeing that align with Democracy.

[VirginiaCat]

They can't and I am perfectly fine with what it is that they are doing from a political standpoint. From a unity standpoint, it's terrible. Rush Limbaugh said what we all know how those on the right feel, that liberals and conservatives cannot live together. I don't believe that for a second, but I definitely believe that there is about 40-50 million Americans that think that.




Such an extreme POV, when combined with the rest of what you have posted, especially your desire to thwart Democracy and overturn the will of the people by invalidating an election that has been certified by every state and Republican leaders.

Getting rid of Romney, Flake, and the likes is extreme. They supported the Trump agenda. They support the Constitution (at least a Conservative interpretation of it). They do not support authoritarianism. That last point is the only difference between the two factions of the party.

Talk of overturning legitimate elections, secession and violence (not accusing you of saying all of this), but they are words of traitors.

What is the "long term gain" that you speak of? I am having trouble seeing that align with Democracy.

illegally cast and counted ballots is a thwart to democracy, not vice versa. And what is sad is that is what you and your ilk do not understand. It is truly sad and likely to end either in violence or in the breaking up of this country.

Romney and Flake have NEVER supported the Trump agenda. They support their personal agendas of being more than they are.

Simply put, your world POV and mine will never align...and I am not sure anymore then can coexist in the same country....

[KentuckyWildcat]

To be a civil war...they would have to know why they are fighting. IMO, they have never known the direction of their party or at least have never been able to communicate it. The main reason I have never cared for the republican party.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

illegally cast and counted ballots is a thwart to democracy, not vice versa. And what is sad is that is what you and your ilk do not understand. It is truly sad and likely to end either in violence or in the breaking up of this country.

Romney and Flake have NEVER supported the Trump agenda. They support their personal agendas of being more than they are.

Simply put, your world POV and mine will never align...and I am not sure anymore then can coexist in the same country....

The problem with your POV is that it is completely based on nothing. No facts. No evidence. It really makes it hard to give you ANY credibility at all. I understand that you have your POV, but like the old saying goes, you can't own your own facts.

What I see right now is that you are aligning yourself to a man that has a pattern of crying election fraud every time he loses. This is not a unique situation. Can you explain the Trump court record concerning this election, why none of the claims in court even address fraud?

Also, as far as your comment about Romney/Flake NEVER supporting the Trump agenda, that too is absolutely false. Here is the evidence to support that for Romney (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/mitt-romney/). Here it is for Flake (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/jeff-flake/).

How does this not align with your previous statement of "I want to be aligned on most (never going to be all) interests."? You see, you don't even believe what you actually say. I would say that 81-82% alignment to the Trump agenda totally fits that. I don't even have percentages that high with my wife or friends.

The only logical conclusion that I can come to is that you simply prefer authoritarianism over Democracy. Lies over truth. Fiction over Fact. You are not alone, though. You have comfort with around 50 million Americans. That FACT is what frightens the rest of us.

You still have not elaborated on the "long term gain". What does that look like? Would you like to clarify or allow us to assume? I'm not asking these questions to be condescending. I ask these questions to understand why people feel this way. You are not the only person that I ask this, but every time that I do, I get complete nonsense that is easy to fact check, which really brings me back to the same conclusion.

EDIT:

I had to go back and reread your post to which I am replying and one thing stood out to me. You say that differing POV's cannot coexist in the same country. To me, that is nonsense. Differing ideologies, differing backgrounds, differing perspectives is what makes this nation thrive. What you are saying IS the definition of intolerance and statements like that further validates my perspectives. Why does it have to be that if you cannot get your way that we cannot have a country?

[Catfan73]

I’ve decided the fact that the vast majority of Republicans in Congress still refuse to accept the election results—at least the results in the presidential race—makes a Republican civil war seem unlikely. At this point, one has to assume that most of them are perfectly fine with Trump at the helm. It’s but the latest symptom of the GOP’s descent into authoritarianism.

The party as it stands now has absolutely no aversion to going against long-standing Democratic norms in its attempts to remain in power. This is authoritarianism. With but a couple of notable exceptions like Romney defending the election results, it’s obvious Trump is far from the only member of the GOP that has issues with one of our key Democratic norms, our electoral process. Another warning sign is that half the party seems to think that any political opponent is illegitimate, no matter how many people disagree with them and vote for that opponent. This is authoritarianism. I’m not sure how the party starts digging itself out or if it can or even if most of the people now registered as Republican would even want to go back to the GOP of old. Factions like the Lincoln Project are definitely on the outside looking in. I think we’re witnessing the death of a political party but it’s going to be a long, slow process.

[kingcat]

It is a war on the United States from within in hopes of establishing a Putin like fake presidency.
An action that at some point would be met with an even more militant and justifiable fervor by the majority.

It is approaching treason in some ranks and should be dealt with as such. It's time to call it what it is and force people to examine their loyalties.

[ukpumacat]

Proud Boys/Trump supporters beating a couple (man and woman) in Washington DC after their rally. Granted, we don’t know what started this; but it’s obvious the couple is trying to walk away.

https://twitter.com/vinnyboyxi/status/1337990138127912960?s=21

[kingcat]

Proud Boys/Trump supporters beating a couple (man and woman) in Washington DC after their rally. Granted, we don’t know what started this; but it’s obvious the couple is trying to walk away.

https://twitter.com/vinnyboyxi/status/1337990138127912960?s=21

It is what it is.

[UKHistory]

Proud Boys/Trump supporters beating a couple (man and woman) in Washington DC after their rally. Granted, we don’t know what started this; but it’s obvious the couple is trying to walk away.

https://twitter.com/vinnyboyxi/status/1337990138127912960?s=21

Brown shirts. Goose steppers. Even if that couple were out of line you call the police. Trump has unleashed the worst of our country on itself.

[Catfan73]

It’s disgusting that these people drape themselves in the flag that so many have sacrificed and died for.

[catmanjack]

Did we not see a group supported by Democrats burning flags this summer?

[catmanjack]

This thought that some parties are such good people while others are not is getting old!
Both side are not really doing all that well.
Criminals everywhere and a lot are Democrats.

[ukpumacat]

This thought that some parties are such good people while others are not is getting old!
Both side are not really doing all that well.


I certainly don't think that. Lots of bad apples to go around on both sides indeed. I will say as to the twitter link that I do agree with my friend UKHistory above.

[catmanjack]

I agree also there is zero support for those kind.

[KentuckyWildcat]

This thought that some parties are such good people while others are not is getting old!


Amen! Only arrogance thinks otherwise IMO

[ukpumacat]

https://twitter.com/talbertswan/status/1338348778932363265?s=21

[UKHistory]

There is no thought or position that has been promoted on this site to suggest that democrats are good and republicans are bad.

We have heard many times how democrats are UnAmerican and unpatriotic on this board. Instead of quickly condemning bad behavior on the Conservative/Republican side the first response is Democrats are bad too.

Rarely in the conversations here does anyone on the conservative side criticize or condemn those on their own side.

There is a lack of willingness on the part of many people on the conservative side to say "yes. this was wrong on my guy/party's part and it must be condemned." No. It would appear that the end justifies the means for one side even if it means very fundamental conservatives views such as states' rights is thrown out the window to ensure their side wins.

I am a former Republican (who I guess is viewed as a Rhino or worse here) who could not stand with Donald Trump. Liberals don't call me liberal.

My concern about Trump and his threat to the rule of law and small "d" democratic principles would seem to be well founded.

In terms of voter integrity, we as a nation had a wake up call in the 2000 election to review election machines, procedures, etc.

Not a lot happened then. There is a big emphasis on states' rights and the responsibility of individual states establish its own procedures to carryout elections. And the issue went by the wayside.

With the concern of foreign influence in the 2016 election, there was a big push by Democrats to invest more money into securing the integrity of the election. Mitch McConnell wouldn't hear of it.

This election was going to generate a massive turnout as Trump is a lightening rod. He began his campaign to run in 2020 the day after he was sworn into office. Many of us have been campaigning against him and waiting to vote him out since day one.

So we were going to get a big crowd. Absentee/mail-in voting has increasingly become popular across the country. I voted early for John McCain, for example, back in 2008.

During an unprecedented pandemic that will see around 300,000 dead by new years, promoting early voting (that is what we did this year) and absentee mail in ballots seems like a great decision to me.

While the idea was squelched fairly quickly Trump did raise the possibility of not holding an election due to the pandemic. Trump, Kushner, Don Jr. all were quoted as raising speculation to try and not hold the election.

Trump then has railed against mail-in/absentee voting long before the ballots were cast. He planted seeds of doubt in this election very early. Heck in 2016 Trump ended his campaign talking about the system being rigged and that he would not think the electoral college is fair. Of course he won the electoral college and shut up about it.

Trump was a horrible winner in 2016 (his American carnage speech was the most tragic and stark view of America ever shared in a inaugural address) and is being a horrible loser in 2020.

The subject of this thread questions the possibility of a Republican Civil War? I don't think there will be one. The few Republican members of Congress will be subsumed by Trump and GOP will embrace a move to authoritarianism many thought not possible to take foothold in American politics.

And certainly democrats are not perfect and yes the far left could establish its own version of authoritarianism. In some circles of cancel culture they have done this. It is a danger but danger is even clearer and growing on the Republican party now.

The ultimate in counter culture is nullifying votes we don't agree with. The ultimate cancel culture is when Texas has the audacity to attempt to cancel the votes in Pennsylvania, Michigan, etc when those states voted differently than the Lone Star State.

This weekend the it would seem that the Proud Boys and their ilk have gone from standing back and standing by to entering the fray.

(note I corrected my misuse of the phrase counter culture; I meant cancel culture).

[UKHistory]

https://twitter.com/talbertswan/status/1338348778932363265?s=21

I condemn this action as I condemn all forms of looting, violence, and the destruction of public and private property. This also shows that when businesses in DC boarded up their doors and windows, it was extremists on either political spectrum, agitators on BOTH SIDES they feared. Proud Boys are the equivalent (edited for clarity)to the radical anarchists on the left. Criminals such as these will use any excuse to perpetuate violence and intimidation.

[ukpumacat]

There is no thought or position that has been promoted on this site to suggest that democrats are good and republicans are bad.

We have heard many times how democrats are UnAmerican and unpatriotic on this board. Instead of quickly condemning bad behavior on the Conservative/Republican side the first response is Democrats are bad too.

Rarely in the conversations here does anyone on the conservative side criticize or condemn those on their own side.

There is a lack of willingness on the part of many people on the conservative side to say "yes. this was wrong on my guy/party's part and it must be condemned." No. It would appear that the end justifies the means for one side even if it means very fundamental conservatives views such as states' rights is thrown out the window to ensure their side wins.

I am a former Republican (who I guess is viewed as a Rhino or worse here) who could not stand with Donald Trump. Liberals don't call me liberal.

My concern about Trump and his threat to the rule of law and small "d" democratic principles would seem to be well founded.

In terms of voter integrity, we as a nation had a wake up call in the 2000 election to review election machines, procedures, etc.

Not a lot happened then. There is a big emphasis on states' rights and the responsibility of individual states establish its own procedures to carryout elections. And the issue went by the wayside.

With the concern of foreign influence in the 2016 election, there was a big push by Democrats to invest more money into securing the integrity of the election. Mitch McConnell wouldn't hear of it.

This election was going to generate a massive turnout as Trump is a lightening rod. He began his campaign to run in 2020 the day after he was sworn into office. Many of us have been campaigning against him and waiting to vote him out since day one.

So we were going to get a big crowd. Absentee/mail-in voting has increasingly become popular across the country. I voted early for John McCain, for example, back in 2008.

During an unprecedented pandemic that will see around 300,000 dead by new years, promoting early voting (that is what we did this year) and absentee mail in ballots seems like a great decision to me.

While the idea was squelched fairly quickly Trump did raise the possibility of not holding an election due to the pandemic. Trump, Kushner, Don Jr. all were quoted as raising speculation to try and not hold the election.

Trump then has railed against mail-in/absentee voting long before the ballots were cast. He planted seeds of doubt in this election very early. Heck in 2016 Trump ended his campaign talking about the system being rigged and that he would not think the electoral college is fair. Of course he won the electoral college and shut up about it.

Trump was a horrible winner in 2016 (his American carnage speech was the most tragic and stark view of America ever shared in a inaugural address) and is being a horrible loser in 2020.

The subject of this thread questions the possibility of a Republican Civil War? I don't think there will be one. The few Republican members of Congress will be subsumed by Trump and GOP will embrace a move to authoritarianism many thought not possible to take foothold in American politics.

And certainly democrats are not perfect and yes the far left could establish its own version of authoritarianism. In some circles of counter culture they have done this. It is a danger but danger is even clearer and growing on the Republican party now.

The ultimate in counter culture is nullifying votes we don't agree with. The ultimate counter culture is when Texas has the audacity to attempt to cancel the votes in Pennsylvania, Michigan, etc when those states voted differently than the Lone Star State.

This weekend the it would seem that the Proud Boys and their ilk have gone from standing back and standing by to entering the fray.

Tons of great thoughts here.

[catmanjack]

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/black-lives-matter-protests-portland-protesters-burn-us-flags-police-arrive/videoshow/77310753.cms

[catmanjack]

The flag burning is a total disrespect for the United States and should never happen.

[UKHistory]

The flag burning is a total disrespect for the United States and should never happen.

100%. What is also a total disrespect of the United States is the KKK, neo-nazis and white supremacists. Disenfranchising the rights of its citizenry is right there with it.

[catmanjack]

All those groups are domestic terrorist groups and should be dealt with accordingly.

[UKHistory]

All those groups are domestic terrorist groups and should be dealt with accordingly.

Absolutely. And one can't peacefully assemble and destroy property. Setting fires is unsafe. I hate to see the American flag burnt. It angers me under any circumstance. I find it counter productive to any change in national policy.

I want to add the Proud Boys in that same group based on what I have seen coming from DC this weekend.

[ukpumacat]

https://twitter.com/talbertswan/status/1338348778932363265?s=21

Btw, I should mention in case it isn't clear in the video. The banner they are burning was torn down off of a church. Several other churches were vandalized by the Proud Boys/Trump supporters as well.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/trump-rally-violence-proud-boys/2020/12/14/bf2f5826-3e26-11eb-8bc0-ae155bee4aff_story.html

[UKHistory]

that sign, whatever your opinion of blm, hung on a church. terrorism; religious persecution; destruction of private property; and other charges.

All of offenders committing such crimes, regardless of political affiliation or purpose in protesting, should be prosecuted for destruction of property and violence.

[catmanjack]

The frustration comes when in your city the riots and destruction is allowed to continue for months while they tear your city apart and then the mayor wants to use taxpayer money to clean up the city that he could not control.
Yes each should be prosecuted to the fullest.

[MickintheHam]

Absolutely. And one can't peacefully assemble and destroy property. Setting fires is unsafe. I hate to see the American flag burnt. It angers me under any circumstance. I find it counter productive to any change in national policy.

I want to add the Proud Boys in that same group based on what I have seen coming from DC this weekend.

Of course you only post these noble thoughts after Trump supporters create a disturbance in your city. Your statements would have had much more credibility had they been posted after riots in NYC, Minneapolis or Louisville.

[UKHistory]

Of course you only post these noble thoughts after Trump supporters create a disturbance in your city. Your statements would have had much more credibility had they been posted after riots in NYC, Minneapolis or Louisville.

Mick,

You think what you want. And you will. I don't have to justify myself to a damn person on this board...let alone you.

And I am pretty sure I have said throughout the summer that there is no justification for violence. I know I have said that in these posts. I have also said that violence and destruction of property do not coexist with a peaceful demonstration.

I also said that while police have a difficult job brutality and abuse of civil liberty should not be tolerated. Law enforcement has a duty to serve and protect and not search and destroy. I am sure I posted the grave danger in Trump urging the use of military troops in the street and condemned his clearing of the area outside the White House prior to curfew for his photo op.

I am glad you think my words are noble. Because they are in this case. It would have been easy to say you agree with me; it would have been easy to find common ground. But you did not choose to do so.

Once again we have a conservative member of this board who has an opportunity to say, "I too condemn looters and violence of all stripes. Those protesters do not represent me".

But you didn't. What did you do? You came to mock me. You could not just say in this one case we agree. So I have to ask since you have gotten personal with me:

Do you stand with Goose steppers who desecrate private property and burn a sign from a church?

That is what we are talking about. That BLM sign was on church property and it was torn down. You may not agree with that message from a church but it was private property of a church that those people destroyed.

If you are unwilling to call out the brown shirts who are politically aligned with your larger political position, I have to ask would you personally march with those brown shirts?

You have questioned my integrity in this post. I question your integrity--directly, honestly and openly.

Do you live by the Constitution? Or do you wrap yourself in it to justify the American brown shirts goose stepping over the liberty of others?

If you think my words were noble stand with me where we agree on the larger points.

[UKHistory]

The frustration comes when in your city the riots and destruction is allowed to continue for months while they tear your city apart and then the mayor wants to use taxpayer money to clean up the city that he could not control.
Yes each should be prosecuted to the fullest.

I got a double fist of that this summer. I was born in Louisville. That is home. So I hate to see what transpired. It breaks my heart. I watched in horror as vandals and looters destroyed property in DC too.

Seeing the violence in Louisville was hard. And very honestly I have had to deal with some white collar crime that has made not only come back to supporting the death penalty, I wanted it expanded to include white collar criminals as well.

We have to cool down and see how we can do better.

First off police, we need to support law enforcement properly. It is an incredibly tough job. Part of support is training and tactics. Part of the support is changes in the law. Part of that is how people treat the police. Another topic for another time.

If memory serves I think you said that this was the first election in which you casted a vote. If I am remembering correctly, that is awesome.

We are in disagreement on some issues and I am sorry you voted the way you did, but I celebrate you exercising the franchise.

I'd rather all Americans vote and get involved than ignore it. Keep the lines open and listen to folks but keep voting.

[Catfan73]

Louisville had one day of what could be termed rioting or looting or whatever you want to call it, May 29th I think it was. There’s been the occasional broken window since then but the rest has just been protesters.

[UKHistory]

I am not sure about one day. I remember the police shooting the pepper spray at the wdrb reporter. I remember the chicken stand guy getting shot (after he may have fired at or at least in the vicinity of the police). The black militia discharged a rifle and hit a few of their own.

The whole situation has seemed tense and terrible watching things on-line and fearing for loved ones driving to Louisville, doctor appointments down town, etc.

[catmanjack]

Way more then one day.

[catmanjack]

I do not like or appreciate trump and many of his actions but I stayed the course and voted Republican because I do not believe in a lot of the policies being supported by the Democratic Party.
The drive towards a socialist government
Medical for all
Huge green deal
Eliminating gas and oil
I see these policies as control and dictating.
I am a free American and have worked extremely hard in my life to build my reputation and respect.
Not in line with the constant free handouts and the constant tax hikes.
You did mention some positives towards the police which I agree.
I feel the racial bias is a narrative that the NAACP and BLM need to keep drawing in the money, if those groups actually wanted to help their people it would be so much different.

[UKHistory]

I do not like or appreciate trump and many of his actions but I stayed the course and voted Republican because I do not believe in a lot of the policies being supported by the Democratic Party.
The drive towards a socialist government
Medical for all
Huge green deal
Eliminating gas and oil
I see these policies as control and dictating.
I am a free American and have worked extremely hard in my life to build my reputation and respect.
Not in line with the constant free handouts and the constant tax hikes.
You did mention some positives towards the police which I agree.
I feel the racial bias is a narrative that the NAACP and BLM need to keep drawing in the money, if those groups actually wanted to help their people it would be so much different.

I hear you. Thanks for sharing your rationale. There are legitimate concerns about the left and taken to an extreme those policies would harm America. Just like in my view right wing policies taken to the extreme hurt America.

Me I have issues with Al Sharpton and those who want to paint everything is about race. That said I think race issues do impact and influence things in society that we don't always fully appreciate. Sometimes it is yes. Sometimes is no. There is bias and racial prejudice in my view. There is also misunderstandings in communication that impact. There are also bad guys on both sides.

Bad police or police who made an error. And criminals who are bad guys. In both instances that are not enough people willing to see that "their side" might be to blame.

There is a lot to digest. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[catmanjack]

Enjoyed and always enjoy others perspective, thanks!

[Catfan73]

Protesters and police/guard clashing yes but basically the only property damage was all on the 29th.

[BigBluePappy]

Protesters and police/guard clashing yes but basically the only property damage was all on the 29th.

Maybe in your neck of the woods, but out here on the Jefferson/Bullitt county line the looting and rioting went on for about two weeks, but the media chose not to make that too well known. It might not have been to the degree of May 29th, but it did still go on out here, out the outer loop to New Cut road and the Jefferson Mall. I and my wife were witness to some of it and it wasn't just on May 29. As a matter of fact we couldn't wait to go to MBSC and leave all this foolishness in our rearview mirror with the grands and greats for a week. Stayed an extra day to keep from coming back...

[Padukacat]

Some really good and wise words spoken in this thread. I would encourage both sides to listen a bit more and scream a bit less because there isn’t one right answer for such a large and diverse country as our, but there is a solution that will allow our great nation to carry on as one nation. We are certainly going to test the possibilities of our existence in the coming years. 2020 has been a year of great reflection and learning for myself, and I must say my views of the world are changing, or maybe being formed as my knowledge and interest grows. It’s been interesting to come into this year with a fairly neutral political view and try to study and decipher what is true and real and right by me. I’m really figuring out what I believe is right, and I’m surprised so many people do disagree on what seems to be obviously right vs wrong. Some topics are difficult and may not have a right answer, but many do seem obvious to me and yet so many disagree. I’ve enjoyed this and honestly this board is one place I tend to cling to for hearing from people I know who are highly intelligent, on both sides.

[MickintheHam]

I had occasion just before Christmas to gather informally for a few hours with 8 Tea Party organizers. These people were grass roots organizers in Alabama years ago. Three hold office in the state Republican Party, two were delegates to the last two Republican conventions, and one was an organizer for Senator Tuberville and will be on his staff. For the record three of these people have been friends of mine for years, predating the Tea Party movement. I differ with some of their views, but have never let differences affect the friendship with very loyal friends. Needless to say I spent the evening listening, not wishing to debate. The conversation was fascinating and informative. Several of these people have worked in other states to organize Tea Parties and to work on National Campaigns for Senate, House and Presidential Candidates who are strong conservatives. They are very knowledgable of what is going on in the Trump Campaign, the Georgia Senate Races and in the various tea parties around the nation.

I can say with a lot of confidence, it will be the Tea Party organizers, the Republican Party officials, and Trump supporters fully working for the Georgia Republican Senate Candidates. Several of these people will be working in Georgia the next two weeks. There are no rifts between conservatives and Trump. And with the Democrat move to the radical left, the numbers of people supporting the Republican ideas are growing. I don't see it slowing down. The Mitt Romney's will either change or face stiff opposition in their next primary. My guess is all factions of the Republican Party will find a way to support other Republicans in the face of socialist agendas. There are no consequential fissures in the Republican Party in the post election period. There will be a shuffling within leadership, but many of the Trump ideas will live throughout a radical Presidency. Biden's toughest job will be to reign in radical democrats. Shumer and Pelosi have had a tough time to date.

[dan_bgblue]

There are no rifts between conservatives and Trump.

Here at home and in northern TN and southern OH, the Republican party supporters are a bit different. They fully support many of Trump's ideas, and his domestic and foreign policies. His major initiatives are fully supported and appreciated, but there is not much support for the man himself. He could not get elected for any office in any of those geographical areas unless he were running against a full blown loony liberal, and people would still search for an alternative to him.

In 4 years we will be looking for a replacement that will pic up the pieces and run sleepy Joe and his fake minority partner out of office.

[MickintheHam]

Here at home and in northern TN and southern OH, the Republican party supporters are a bit different. They fully support many of Trump's ideas, and his domestic and foreign policies. His major initiatives are fully supported and appreciated, but there is not much support for the man himself. He could not get elected for any office in any of those geographical areas unless he were running against a full blown loony liberal, and people would still search for an alternative to him.

In 4 years we will be looking for a replacement that will pic up the pieces and run sleepy Joe and his fake minority partner out of office.

Maybe you mis-read or misinterpreted what I said. I spoke of the Trump Campaign, not the man. Trump is the reason Trump lost, not his ideas.

[dan_bgblue]

Maybe you mis-read or misinterpreted what I said. I spoke of the Trump Campaign, not the man. Trump is the reason Trump lost, not his ideas.

I can say with a lot of confidence, it will be the Tea Party organizers, the Republican Party officials, and Trump supporters fully working for the Georgia Republican Senate Candidates.

There are no rifts between conservatives and Trump.

I am not sure what I misread, but am willing to say I did, and move on.

[MickintheHam]

I am distinguishing between Trump and Trump supporters. The man is the enigma. Many support him and do not like him. I believe we are saying the same thing.

[catmanjack]

Thanks, would enjoy hearing that discussion, I find the interest growing inside to understand the political moving and shaking.

[dan_bgblue]

:trink39:

[ukpumacat]

"If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed.......and we will deserve it."

Lindsey Graham

[UKHistory]

The GOP is already destroyed in terms of what it believed at its core.

It now favors Federal intervention of state sovereignty and disenfranchisement of voters.

It concedes the ideal of American exceptionalism in favor of transactional diplomacy. And oh yeah democracy as a preferred form of government.

[ukpumacat]

The GOP is already destroyed in terms of what it believed at its core.

It now favors Federal intervention of state sovereignty and disenfranchisement of voters.

It concedes the ideal of American exceptionalism in favor of transactional diplomacy. And oh yeah democracy as a preferred form of government.

What I am about to post is simply anecdotal. It may mean absolutely nothing. While I know that true Trump supporters are faithful until the end....and while I know there are many that are so against what they see as a shift toward socialism that they will stick with Trump and Republicans no matter what....not everyone will.

I have had two friends in the past two weeks who are staunch conservatives. Christian conservatives. Both voted for Trump twice. And both (in different words and in different ways) communicated to me they are done. They won't vote for a Dem, but they will never vote for another Republican after what they have seen after the election.

These are not moderates. These are hard core fiscal and social conservatives.

But both believe that to support Trump as many top Republicans have is to support autocracy and fascism. One called it the "most dangerous time in the history of our country".

Does this mean anything? Maybe not. But I would guess there are many more like them out there.

[ukpumacat]

One more odd and "only Trump" tidbit.

I listened to the entire one hour phone call. Its utter nonsensical rambling. Its all over the place. And then of course its illegal and seditious.
Besides all of that, there was one line that was just....odd.

At one point when Trump is talking to the SOS, he says to his lawyer, "You have a nice last name".

The lawyer's name is Ryan Germany. You just can't make this stuff up.

[UKHistory]

Here is an article in the Post today https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/senate-republicans-fight-new-congress/2021/01/03/27eff4d0-4dd4-11eb-bda4-615aaefd0555_story.html concerning the split within the party.

Puma, as for your friends I would say they are patriots for their decision to not support Trump and moving away from the party for now at least. I'd like to see the middle democrats and republicans come together to form a new party that better represents most Americans. Left or right, extremism is bad and both lead to authoritarianism.

At the heart of Trump's presidency is a commitment to a hedonistic quest for power that favors lawlessness and bully tactics. That must be fought at every instance.

[catmanjack]

Totally supported and needed!

Here is an article in the Post today https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/senate-republicans-fight-new-congress/2021/01/03/27eff4d0-4dd4-11eb-bda4-615aaefd0555_story.html concerning the split within the party.

Puma, as for your friends I would say they are patriots for their decision to not support Trump and moving away from the party for now at least. I'd like to see the middle democrats and republicans come together to form a new party that better represents most Americans. Left or right, extremism is bad and both lead to authoritarianism.

At the heart of Trump's presidency is a commitment to a hedonistic quest for power that favors lawlessness and bully tactics. That must be fought at every instance.

[kingcat]

Republicrats?

[BigBluePappy]

Libertarian?

[Catonahottinroof]

I doubt it would be libertarian. Libertarians are actually a pretty big tent that houses conservatives, liberals and a weird sect of anarchists. One thing most agree on, the government is too big, wields too much power and takes to much of its citizens money in the form of taxes. I’m not sure they would agree on much else though....

Libertarian?

[UKHistory]

Moderates are increasingly diminished in the primary process where party candidates are chose. Moderate approach to governing including the spirit of compromise has also been discouraged if not outright outlawed in part to elected officials being molded through the primary process and the end of pork projects AKA earmarks and directed awards of Federal funds.

The hyperbole and hatred on both sides also works to limit this spirit of compromise.

And yes, my strong opposition and fear of Donald Trump and his approach (some policies but his general behavior to people and nations) makes it hard to compromise too. Some good folks here are proud Republicans/conservatives (some more conservative than Republican) and they support Trump policies. So when I say Trump is the single, greatest threat to American democracy, I sound over the top.

I do sincerely believe it because even as we speak he is looking to overturn an election that he lost but still saw the GOP win seats in the House and potentially hold serve in the Senate. I am probably not a good messenger for moderation and compromise because my 4 year crusade warning of Trump's evils seems to some over the top and for many here unfounded.

I get that. But it is where I am at.

If we could get moderates to have the leading voice, work to reduce money in the elections and give voice to the People, I think we will be better off.

Now seventy some million Americans voted for Trump. More for Biden but Trump consolidated and expanded his base in four years and the will of a significant number of Americans, although losing in both the popular vote and electoral college and should not be ignored.

[ukpumacat]

Trump is about Trump. He knows he will not be the President on Jan 20th. This Georgia run-off doesn't matter a lick if he "won". He knows he is out.

But, this is about two things:

1. Money (and MOSTLY this). His campaign is in serious debt and he has used this "Election Fraud" nonsense to raise hundreds of millions of dollars, the vast vast majority of which he is able to use to pay off campaign debt and use for future litigation, etc.

2. Loyalty. Trump is always about people being loyal to him. He will toss someone under the bus in one second when they don't serve his purpose anymore. Today, he did that to Pence (who is currently meeting with him in the White House). Trump literally tweeted that Pence can reject that certification (Note: He CANNOT Constitutionally and knows this). So now, when Pence does not (and he won't), Trump's cult will now hate Pence.

All in all, every single Republican in office has to make the decision whether to be loyal to the constitution and their own values and beliefs or Trump. Most are simply choosing what is politically expedient for them.
Marco Rubio is my favorite (not in a good way). He used to be an actual moderate rising star. That guy has been chewed up and spit out by Trump so many times he literally is "Little Marco" now. He became a Trump lackey like everyone else and it won't matter a bit when Ivanka runs against him in 2022 for the Senate. Its fantastic to watch.

And again, the best part of all of this (for a Dem) is that it is dividing the Republican Party and that it makes it very very difficult for a Republican to win the Governor or Senate moving forward in many of these purple states.
Why?
Because an extreme candidate won't win the general and a moderate candidate who isn't loyal to Trump can't get out of the primary.

We are about to see this in Georgia. I believe Trump himself has now cost the Republicans the Senate. If he had of just shut up and gone away, I believe Reps would control it as I think the run offs would have split (or Republicans would have won both).
Now, I predict Warnock wins by a few points, and Osoff barely wins (although this one I think is a toss up).

And again, Republicans have no one to blame but themselves. You "sleep with the dog and you get the fleas". And this one is rabid.

[ukpumacat]

Its not like they didn't warn us:

https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1346282852565061633?s=20

[catmanjack]

Let’s not forget there are some real pieces of work on the Democratic side also.
Harris along with her pose would do real damage if allowed.
While Trump is over the top these ladies are as well.

[catmanjack]

Most if not all politicians are for themselves just look at how many are Millionaires, not when they started as politicians but when they left office.

[ukpumacat]

Most if not all politicians are for themselves just look at how many are Millionaires, not when they started as politicians but when they left office.

Absolutely. The vast majority on both sides are in it for themselves.

I will say that what Trump is doing is unlike anything we have ever seen a sitting President (or other) do before. Losing the election and then openly trying to overturn the results is something you see in authoritarian dictatorships. And the fact that some have gone along with it will not soon be forgotten.

Forget the next several years, History will not be kind on any of this.

And guys like Ben Sasse, Brian Kemp, etc will gain tons of respect from both sides of the aisle simply for doing the right thing. Who woulda thunk it?

And I should add, do I think the Dems are beneath ever doing this now that the precedent has been set? Absolutely not. Pandora's box has been opened.

And the scariest part about it all is that it actually could have worked had the Republicans controlled the House and Senate. That is absolutely frightening.

[ukpumacat]

I want to throw out one more thought on this from the Republican point of view (that I just saw a Republican strategist mention):

The worst thing that could ever happen to Republicans (nationally) would be for the electoral college to go away and we become a true democracy who uses the popular vote to decide elections. That would be a disaster for them.
And by doing what Trump is doing they are handing Dems the greatest piece of evidence they could use to try and do it.

I doubt that ever happens. But, Republicans simply cannot win the popular vote nationally anymore. Doing what they are doing is frankly not just unconstitutional and dangerous but its plain stupid for the future of their party.

[UKHistory]

It is stupid unless they work to nationalize elections and disenfranchising people.

Supporting Trump has already got conservatives abandoning states rights.

Absentee ballots that are mailed makes a lot of sense during a pandemic. Early voting that limits lines is great too.

I want every vote counted. I want 0 voter fraud. I personally don’t see a problem requiring photo ID but if dmvs are not open or near by communities that is an issue.

But GOP really abandoning It’s principles in support of Trump

[catmanjack]

I kind of see the reason Republicans cannot win the popular vote is because of the mistales/lies being told, when you allow the 25 and under to dictate the election based on socialist direction, eliminating college debt, huge direction towards the Environmental elimination of gas and oil because they have a belief the planet will be destroyed within 5 years. That has a huge impact on elections huge!

I want to throw out one more thought on this from the Republican point of view (that I just saw a Republican strategist mention):

The worst thing that could ever happen to Republicans (nationally) would be for the electoral college to go away and we become a true democracy who uses the popular vote to decide elections. That would be a disaster for them.
And by doing what Trump is doing they are handing Dems the greatest piece of evidence they could use to try and do it.

I doubt that ever happens. But, Republicans simply cannot win the popular vote nationally anymore. Doing what they are doing is frankly not just unconstitutional and dangerous but its plain stupid for the future of their party.

[catmanjack]

I live with 3 under 25’s and their whole reason for voting as the 25 year old told me was the a socialist government sounds pretty good and to get her college debt elimination.
The 21 year old stated global warming and her desire to protect the animals.
Wow really and on top of that I am a 50 year old racist that knows zero about life! Lol.
That is the biggest issue when it comes to elections.

[catmanjack]

Not to mention both have received the stimulus while their mother who is a teacher has not! Oh and the great thing at allows them to go to Hawaii because get this they have worked hard this year!

[catmanjack]

So it’s easy to kick us hard working Republicans in the balls because we do not believe our hard earned money should be taxes to death and handed out to those that choose to make excuse after excuse for not working while they continue to destroy the foundation of what makes America Great HARD WORK!!!!!

[ukpumacat]

From a strategic/messaging standpoint, what Trump is doing is not going to help. That is my overall point.

[catmanjack]

I totally agree, be a man and move on but we all know that is not in his DNA.

[catmanjack]

I am also trying to say it’s not all political.
Elections are bought and paid for.

[Catonahottinroof]

It certainly isn’t strategic, it’s his bruised ego rearing it’s head.

From a strategic/messaging standpoint, what Trump is doing is not going to help. That is my overall point.

[UKHistory]

Catman,

You have my sympathy. No wonder you have your political views. I can't defend and would not want to try based on what you described.

[ukpumacat]

Fwiw, just saw a tweet by a Republican strategist: “Thanks Donald Trump”.

He was being sarcastic. Like I predicted a bit back, this is going to be a Dem Senate.

As a Dem, I have mixed feelings about that (think it will hurt in 2022). But, I’m for anything where voters reject the nonsense happening in DC right now.

[Padukacat]

I live with 3 under 25’s and their whole reason for voting as the 25 year old told me was the a socialist government sounds pretty good and to get her college debt elimination.
The 21 year old stated global warming and her desire to protect the animals.
Wow really and on top of that I am a 50 year old racist that knows zero about life! Lol.
That is the biggest issue when it comes to elections.

Is it your daughter? If not I don’t feel sorry for you anymore lol. Lots of 50 year olds would love to live with under 25’s!

[catmanjack]

Stepdaughter makes it worse, not very nice.

[VirginiaCat]

Fwiw, just saw a tweet by a Republican strategist: “Thanks Donald Trump”.

He was being sarcastic. Like I predicted a bit back, this is going to be a Dem Senate.

As a Dem, I have mixed feelings about that (think it will hurt in 2022). But, I’m for anything where voters reject the nonsense happening in DC right now.

Puma, this I could have told you. the GOP is dead as of today. At least the GOP of old. It may go on but it will be a populism party, not a global market party. If not, there will be a large new party formed. That is my predictions. The typical R's will all be primaried.

[ukpumacat]

Puma, this I could have told you. the GOP is dead as of today. At least the GOP of old. It may go on but it will be a populism party, not a global market party. If not, there will be a large new party formed. That is my predictions. The typical R's will all be primaried.

Two VERY pro Trump candidates just lost in Georgia yesterday. And against two candidates that are not moderates. Georgia.

It will not take long before whatever the Republican Party becomes realizes MAGA candidates cannot win in these states.

[VirginiaCat]

Two VERY pro Trump candidates just lost in Georgia yesterday. And against two candidates that are not moderates. Georgia.

It will not take long before whatever the Republican Party becomes realizes MAGA candidates cannot win in these states.

Very good point. Wonder if that would have happened without a mail in vote process (just leave the regular absentee ballot process in place)? Who knows. We will never know.

I find it extremely interesting that the last time a runoff happened in GA only 2.7MM votes were cast. This time about 5 MM.

That the last election there was a 6.5% rejection rate of the actual absentee ballots that have a chain of control process but yet only a .007 rejection rate this time. That of 19 bell weather counties in GA, 18 went to Trump by a larger margin this time around than the last time.

Too many statistical anomolies in this election overall. Has to be explained.

Honestly, that is all I am asking for. Explain the anomolies. IF they can be explained, I think a lot of people like me will accept. But until that, Biden is not POTUS.

Cruz presented a very good option. I can live aith an Electoral Commission to look at the data and evidence and make a call. 5 from the house, 5 from the Senate, and 5 SCOTUS. They have 13 days to finish.

[ukpumacat]

Very good point. Wonder if that would have happened without a mail in vote process (just leave the regular absentee ballot process in place)? Who knows. We will never know.

I find it extremely interesting that the last time a runoff happened in GA only 2.7MM votes were cast. This time about 5 MM.

That the last election there was a 6.5% rejection rate of the actual absentee ballots that have a chain of control process but yet only a .007 rejection rate this time. That of 19 bell weather counties in GA, 18 went to Trump by a larger margin this time around than the last time.

Too many statistical anomolies in this election overall. Has to be explained.

Honestly, that is all I am asking for. Explain the anomolies. IF they can be explained, I think a lot of people like me will accept. But until that, Biden is not POTUS.

Cruz presented a very good option. I can live aith an Electoral Commission to look at the data and evidence and make a call. 5 from the house, 5 from the Senate, and 5 SCOTUS. They have 13 days to finish.

There was no hope of that committee happening before. And there is zero chance of that happening now. Biden will be our President (whether one calls him their own or not).

And the Republican Georgia Election officer tore those false accusation apart one by one yesterday in a video.

[VirginiaCat]

There was no hope of that committee happening before. And there is zero chance of that happening now. Biden will be our President (whether one calls him their own or not).

And the Republican Georgia Election officer tore those false accusation apart one by one yesterday in a video.

You are probably correct...but it would solve a lot of this. If they do not, buckel up, the next 4 years are going to be very violent.

[ukpumacat]

You are probably correct...but it would solve a lot of this. If they do not, buckel up, the next 4 years are going to be very violent.

I don't know what will happen. I can tell you that Trump's words and influence will have less and less power over time. Any violence will be shut down immediately (as it should with anyone). And conservatives/Republicans/MAGA will lose less and less power if that happens.

[dan_bgblue]

Any violence will be shut down immediately (as it should with anyone)

What happened in Washington and Oregon states? I seem to remember a lot of violent acts that were ignored by the local authorities.

[ukpumacat]

What happened in Washington and Oregon states? I seem to remember a lot of violent acts that were ignored by the local authorities.

If it was it shouldn't be. Ever.

[ukpumacat]

The Trump shower has begun:

I just spoke with Vice President Pence. He is a genuinely fine and decent man. He exhibited courage today as he did at the Capitol on 9/11 as a Congressman. I am proud to serve with him.
Robert Obrien

[ukpumacat]

Winners from the Republican Party today: every one of them that called Trump out before this.

Sasse is at the top of that list. Republicans would be lucky to choose him as their 2024 nominee (he won’t get my vote, just mean he would be a tough out)
His statement is strong:

https://twitter.com/sensasse/status/1346941926206025730?s=21

[ukpumacat]

I was posting about this a bit in the other thread but am curious what some of your thoughts are on how Republicans move forward.

Here is the heart of the issue after last week:

- Trump lost the election because he lost the suburbs. He ran behind many many Republicans on the same ballots in these specific areas.
- The events of last week were EXACTLY why he lost the suburbs. The rhetoric, division, buffoonery (Chuck's word), etc.
- After last week, any candidate that supports Trump or who is viewed as complicit will never get those suburbs back.
BUT...
- Trump brought out more voters for his party than any in history. He carried many to seats.
- Trump's supporters ARE the Republican base now. Most Republicans cannot win without them.

So, how do you make these two things work on a National level and in purple states?

Yes, this is not an issue in many local elections and in red states. But, Republicans already HAVE those seats.

To win back the Senate or House or Presidency, they have to compete in purple states for purple seats. How do they do this if Non-Trump Republicans can't get out of the primary and pro-Trump Republicans can never win in the general because of the suburbs?

[Catfan73]

I'm not sure they do, at least not until they can piece back together a viable coalition. With Trump allies in leadership at the RNC that might take awhile. Eventually they'll realize they need to change tactics but the Democrats probably keep the White House for the next 16 years unless they start fighting themselves.

[anderwt]

I'm not sure they do, at least not until they can piece back together a viable coalition. With Trump allies in leadership at the RNC that might take awhile. Eventually they'll realize they need to change tactics but the Democrats probably keep the White House for the next 16 years unless they start fighting themselves.

Which is possible Because deep down, like a majority of Republicans who actually don’t like trump just the policies, the same can be said for Democrats and AOC

[ukpumacat]

Which is possible Because deep down, like a majority of Republicans who actually don’t like trump just the policies, the same can be said for Democrats and AOC

In sports, it’s really hard to repeat. One of the main reasons is because when you are struggling for that first title, you put away all selfish motives and do whatever it takes to get the team to win. You buy in.
Dems did that to defeat Trump.
Whether they keep doing that remains to be seen.
There has always been factions in both parties. That is the nature of a two party system.
Dems have been able to stay United because they have true party leadership in Clinton, Obama and now Biden. Almost all Dems respect them even if they don’t agree with them.

On the Republican side, they will need to do the same. They will need to get sick of losing before they are willing to put away party divisions and do what it takes to win.
But right now, they have no party leader. Trump is the closest thing but 25% or more of the party will never listen to him again (or anyone that helped him). That won’t get it done.
And Republicans are losing the popular vote by more every year and more states are becoming purple every election.

Now, does that mean they are done? No. Of course not.
Their anti-socialism message worked. And it can still work. In fact, their messaging has been demonstratively better than Dems.
If they can get past this Trump nonsense and truly coalesce around that, they could quickly start winning back some of those people.
A low tax, small government socially liberal platform is a winning platform (that isn’t my platform...just saying it’s a winning one).
But Trump has completely mucked that up. As Ben Sasse said a while back “he has coddled white supremacists” and spent worse than Obama.
If they get there, they can def win. But I’m not sure how they get there.

[Catfan73]

1. Condemn Wednesday’s insurrection.
2. Acknowledge that they’ve been lying about voter fraud and a “stolen” election.
3. Apologize for lying.
4. Stop attacking our democracy.
5. Congratulate Joe Biden.

If they could do these five things they could put out a viable candidate in four years but they’re going to have to reel back in the monster they’ve created. I don’t think there’s a chance in hell they’ll actually do it however.

[ukpumacat]

This is just a reminder what Ben Sasse said about Trump before the election (and obviously before last week's insurgence on the Capitol):

"If young people become permanent Democrats because they've just been repulsed by the obsessive nature of our politics, or if women who were willing to still vote with the Republican Party in 2016 decide that they need to turn away from this party permanently in the future, the debate is not going to be, you know, 'Ben Sasse, why were you so mean to Donald Trump?' " he said. "It's going to be 'What the heck were any of us thinking that selling a TV-obsessed narcissistic individual to the American people was a good idea?' It is not a good idea."

[Catfan73]

Even the core MAGA supporters are having a hard time presenting a united front, as they can’t decide whether they’re proud patriots or if some bogeyman like antifa was responsible for what happened Wednesday. It’s going to be awhile before they start beating Democrats again.

[anderwt]

All 50 capitals are having to prepare for ARMED riots..Its Civil War.. only Trump can throw out the first peace sign

[Catfan73]

Trump decided long ago that good or bad, he won’t be forgotten.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

This is just a reminder what Ben Sasse said about Trump before the election (and obviously before last week's insurgence on the Capitol):

"If young people become permanent Democrats because they've just been repulsed by the obsessive nature of our politics, or if women who were willing to still vote with the Republican Party in 2016 decide that they need to turn away from this party permanently in the future, the debate is not going to be, you know, 'Ben Sasse, why were you so mean to Donald Trump?' " he said. "It's going to be 'What the heck were any of us thinking that selling a TV-obsessed narcissistic individual to the American people was a good idea?' It is not a good idea."

I said something very similar to this elsewhere.

[Catfan73]

All 50 capitals are having to prepare for ARMED riots..Its Civil War.. only Trump can throw out the first peace sign

Seeing people get locked up and then finding out you’re on no-fly lists will put a damper on a lot of the enthusiasm.

[ukpumacat]

The amount of companies that are coming out saying they will no longer donate to any politician who voted to overturn the results of the election is stunning.
Some of these will have serious impacts on these candidates.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

The amount of companies that are coming out saying they will no longer donate to any politician who voted to overturn the results of the election is stunning.
Some of these will have serious impacts on these candidates.

Let's hope that it gets to the point where Republicans start wanting to get money out of politics. When I look at these amounts that corporations have pledged to end the donations, only to these candidates, it's staggering.

Then, when I think about how that money could be put to good use in paying their employees, training, hiring, etc. basically employee growth, I start to think about that the only reason they are making these contributions is because they see a good ROI, which obviously comes from the tax code, at the expense of the American taxpayer.

Politicians, especially on the right, make the argument that giving money to these corporations is the best way to stimulate, but really the thing that it mostly accomplishes is keeping them in power.

We need to unwind ALL of this crap, let the people keep their money, tax those at rates according to their ability to pay, end tax dollar discrimination (where investment income that is earned at a lesser effort than those that actually perform work that is tax at different rates; every dollar, no matter how earned should be taxed equally at the prevailing rate), and stop spending where it cannot be afforded when it is not applicable to ensuring the safety of Americans.

The accounting lobbyists will make sure that never happens.

[VirginiaCat]

McConnell and the Traditional GOP are in a lot of trouble... The Party is not their party anymore

Axios Poll of Republicans..

https://www.newsmax.com/politics/poll-trump-republicans-2024/2021/01/14/id/1005578/

[ukpumacat]

McConnell and the Traditional GOP are in a lot of trouble... The Party is not their party anymore

Axios Poll of Republicans..

https://www.newsmax.com/politics/poll-trump-republicans-2024/2021/01/14/id/1005578/

That Newsmax article is terribly misleading and mischaracterizes that poll. It doesn't say at all what you think it does.

It is NOT an Axios poll of "Republicans". It is a poll of everyone.

The first question of the poll asked voters to identify as one of the following categories:

1. Trump Supporter
2. Traditional GOP
3. Political Independent
4. Moderate Dem
5. Progressive/Liberal

16% of all polled chose Traditional GOP. 13% of all polled chose "Trump Supporter".

Of Republicans, 56% chose GOP and 36% chose Trump supporter.

And then, to the faulty headline....OF ONLY THOSE WHO CHOSE "Trump supporter"....92% of them agreed with Trump contesting the election.

Ummm....duh. Haha

And only 46% of the larger "Traditional GOP" group said they supported it.

In other words....that was a very very small group that ultimately chose that. Thus, the very misleading headline.

Actually, I will do the math.

1,019 people were surveyed.

13% of them chose Trump Supporter.

That's 132 people. 92% of them is 121 people.

So Newsmax wrote a headline saying "92%" which was really just clickbait because that only represented 121 of the over 1,000 people polled (of course some others in other categories supported it also but they aren't part of the 92%).

Anyways, lots of good info in the poll so thanks for linking it. Here is the actual poll if you want to read it (notice the very different headline ha):
https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/unrest-capitol-election-certification-010621

[ukpumacat]

This is the actual link to the poll itself with every question: https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2021-01/topline_axios_ipsos_poll_jan_13_2021_final.pdf


It also speaks to our discussion the other day about Trump's "Approval rating".

Among all Voters: 29%
Among Republicans: 64%

But here is where the more interesting numbers are....

Mike Pence: 50% (and a higher approval among Republicans)

Mitt Romney: 47% (and lower among Republicans)

Ted Cruz: 29% (and barely higher than Trump's/ much lower than Pence among Republicans)

Josh Hawley: 24%

Mitch McConnell: 28%

Nancy Pelosi: 46%

Now, I don't know exactly where these numbers were before, but this would suggest that the following people were helped by the past few weeks:
Pence, Romney, Pelosi, Mitch
And that these were hurt by them: Cruz, Hawley and Trump

Which frankly, is not surprising with how this played out.

Again, I don't know where they were before...but those are pretty awful approval ratings for people hoping to run in 2024.

This may be Pence's party.

[ukpumacat]

Another note about this poll that I had missed. I talk a lot about the only way Republicans can win a National election is if they really take back independents. This poll speaks to that.

Of those surveyed, here is how they "identified themselves":

Trump Supporter: 13%
Traditional GOP: 16%
Independent: 32%
Moderate Dem: 24%
Liberal: 13%

So, 29% Trump or GOP. 37% Dem or Liberal. And 32% as Independent.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Another note about this poll that I had missed. I talk a lot about the only way Republicans can win a National election is if they really take back independents. This poll speaks to that.

Of those surveyed, here is how they "identified themselves":

Trump Supporter: 13%
Traditional GOP: 16%
Independent: 32%
Moderate Dem: 24%
Liberal: 13%

So, 29% Trump or GOP. 37% Dem or Liberal. And 32% as Independent.

Careful Puma, facts and analysis is a big NO to some. :winking0011:

Interesting information and not surprising in the least. May be Pelosi's highest approval rating in a long time. Certainly the highest I recall ever seeing it.

It's interesting when you look at the Hawley, Cruz, Trump data. What that says to me is that Trumpism, without Trump, is strong enough that our current problems are not going to go away soon. There will just be a new face, with Trump playing from the outside.

The only way that it will go away is to keep defeating them at the polls.

[ukpumacat]

It's interesting when you look at the Hawley, Cruz, Trump data. What that says to me is that Trumpism, without Trump, is strong enough that our current problems are not going to go away soon. There will just be a new face, with Trump playing from the outside.

The only way that it will go away is to keep defeating them at the polls.

Here is where I don't quite get their thinking:

Both Cruz and Hawley are all about the 2024 nomination. That's what they care about most.

And yes, they might very well be the favorite for that "13% Trump supporter" number but they def aren't for that traditional GOP number.
Remember, Trump won the nomination in 2016 because all of the other candidates kept splitting the vote. In fact, Dems learned from that and consolidated around Biden because they didn't want Bernie to be the nominee (as most don't think he can win).
If Hawley and Cruz split that "13% number"...they have very little chance.
I actually think its more likely that the "traditional GOP" consolidates around one moderate candidate which will be enough to defeat the more conservative one in the primary.
But, lots to be decided there.

The one thing we learned in 2018 and the 2020/21 run-offs is that Trump candidates could not get out the vote without Trump on the ballot. That will be something they really have to figure out.