Donald Trump committing voter fraud?

[ukpumacat]

https://publicintegrity.org/politics/elections/ballotboxbarriers/trump-nonprofit-million-voters-swing-states/

This is....interesting.

[ukpumacat]

And this...pressuring Republican canvassers in Michigan not to certify the vote.

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-donald-trump-local-elections-arizona-michigan-29da6aac9cc41e47f3095855e7af7031

[ukpumacat]

I'm just going to say this, because its been driving me crazy.

But, the levels that Donald Trump has gone to that we all just allow and expect are not only unprecedented, but are just flat wrong. And we are all so numb to his antics, and dismiss his twitter as "just words and not actions" that we can't see the forrest from the trees.

The fact that he won't concede is insanity. Yes, it was predictable. Yes, we all know it matches his personality. He's an elitist. He's a narcissist. And he's admitted in interviews he's the worst kind of loser.
He warned us all this was coming. Not just on voter fraud. He refused to answer in 2016 when they asked if he would concede if he lost to Hillary. He refused to answer in multiple debates this year if there would be a peaceful transition of power.

But just because we expect it and just because people dismiss it doesn't make it any less striking.

The acting President of the United States is refusing to admit he lost an election that he very clearly lost by millions of votes in multiple states. And beyond that, he is actively spreading disinformation, filing frivolous lawsuits that are being tossed out of court one after another and has yet to produce one iota of evidence of voter fraud.

Look, if some of you guys want to stay on this, "but there is voter fraud and we should fix it" line of thinking....fine. Do it NOT when Trump lost. Do it in 2016. Do it the 4 years he's President. I am ALL for that. Where there are problems, let's fix them.

But, refusing to acknowledge the VERY clear will of the people is anti-democracy, autocratic and fascist. Pressuring voting boards to refuse to certify the results of an election is just plain wrong. Tweeting lie after lie to your millions of followers is wrong. His words do matter. Because his words lead to actions. And these actions are incredibly harmful.

We are about to enter the darkest weeks of this pandemic yet. And instead of leading us through it, he's obsessed with trying to overthrow an election that he lost. Some of you have called him boorish and a bully. But this is far beyond that. This is outright democratic sabotage. And us all acknowledging that there are things in the voting process that need to be fixed is not mutually exclusive to saying that his behavior is wrong and frankly, scary.

And people just justify and excuse it all. But the Democrats did this. Russia! The Media! Are we not capable of just talking about the actions of the President of the United States without justifying them based on other people's actions (even if wrong)? He's the President (for 2 more months). No one else is.

Ben Sasse has a backbone. And he called Trump exactly what we all see. When will some of the other Republican leaders stand up and say, "enough is enough. The people voted. We will respect their vote."? They all know this election will not change. We all know this election will not change. And yet, people just act like his behavior is just "Trump being Trump".
This is dangerous. Its not bringing "light to election issues". Its doing the complete opposite. Its ensuring they will never get fixed because he's now cemented them as completely partisan.

If you actually care about making sure there is no election fraud...this needs to stop. This is the opposite of fixing it. Everyone (the world, world leaders, most of America) except for his most ardent supporters see this as exactly what it is: a man who has never cared more about the country than he has himself...and is showing it in spades in his final days.

To quote his acting attorney (before she was working for him): "I could spend a full-time job just responding to the ridiculously illogical, inconsistent, and blatantly stupid arguments supporting Trump. But here's the thing: his supporters DON'T CARE about facts or logic. They aren't seeking truth. Trump probably could shoot someone in the middle of NYC and not lose support. And this is the cumulative reason why this nation is in such terrible shape: We don't have truth seekers; we have narcissists."

[dan_bgblue]

https://www.nysun.com/national/trumps-epic-battle-will-carry-into-the-coming/91339/

[ukpumacat]

From that article:
"As it stands now, fewer than 40,000 votes switched from the Democratic nominee Joe Biden to Donald Trump in Pennsylvania, Georgia, and Arizona would give Mr. Trump the election 279 electoral votes to Mr. Biden’s 259."

This is just factually not true.

Biden's lead in:

PA - 82,357
AZ - 10, 457
GA - 14,007

Total = 106,821

[Catfan73]

It’s dangerous to the health of the country because we only have two parties and he has half of one of them thinking the only way they can lose an election is thru voter fraud. Democracy depends on each party admitting the other is legitimate and each must respect our elections as legitimate. He’s a petulant, narcissistic egomaniac that cares nothing about this country or anyone else.

[kingcat]

I’ve typed and deleted several times. Suffice it to say (as the other side repeatedly likes to lament over anything ) I am becoming sadly disappointed in a huge segment of the population. Shocked really.
Still, Gods will de done.

[Doc]

I find it rich that the left is all up in arms because Trump won't conceded yet. Why, is it making a smooth transition more difficult? I would have sympathy except for Obama's actions when Hillary lost. His response was to spy on Trump and haves his administration set up a sting operation on his staff. I find it rich because Hillary stated Joe should under no circumstance concede (apparently she thought he would lose too). I find it rich that Trump is spreading lies and disinformation after 4 years of democrats lying and spreading disinformation. Its rich because the left, including the speaker of the house, repeatedly refer to Trump as an illegitimate president for the last 4 years.

Now we are worried about the health of the country. Really? after 6 months of supporting violence and rioting to get their way, now its about the health of the country? Maybe Trump should actually encourage peaceful protests (wink wink), where Biden supporters are seeked out and physically assaulted. Trump has no obligation to concede. It is HIS choice.

[ukpumacat]

Trump has no obligation to concede. It is HIS choice.

The issue isn't him conceding.

The issue is him trying to overturn the will of the American people. The issue is that he has Rudy G filing frivolous lawsuits all over the country trying to delay certifications (and getting thrown out of court in every one). The issue is him calling county board members to pressure them to not certify the election. The issue is him tweeting complete and total lies to millions of people that believe his every word.

If he wants to not concede and play a spoiled sport...fine...its his choice. But as the President of the United States during the worst pandemic in 100 years....lead?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/president-has-abdicated/617139/

[ukpumacat]

I'm watching the Rudy G side show. And besides quoting from "My Cousin Vinny" and figuring out that if you throw out the votes of all the big cities, Trump would win....I can't stop staring at his hair dye running down the side of his face.

[ukpumacat]

I'm watching the Rudy G side show. And besides quoting from "My Cousin Vinny" and figuring out that if you throw out the votes of all the big cities, Trump would win....I can't stop staring at his hair dye running down the side of his face.

I joke about this. But the lies they are spewing at this press conference is just outrageous. And its so so dangerous.

[CitizenBBN]

It’s dangerous to the health of the country because we only have two parties and he has half of one of them thinking the only way they can lose an election is thru voter fraud. Democracy depends on each party admitting the other is legitimate and each must respect our elections as legitimate. He’s a petulant, narcissistic egomaniac that cares nothing about this country or anyone else.

So when should we await the announcement from the Democrats that, after a complete fabrication of Russian collusion, Trump's election was in fact completely legitimate and they are officially apologizing for people like Adam Schiff falsely claiming to have evidence of wrongdoing?

Half of this country is convinced Trump won through some nefarious means, and the Democrats spent 4 years beating the message home. Now you're surprised people on the other side may think the same thing?

Everything you posted could be applied to the last 4 years we've endured, which has also endangered the health of the country.

One of the things Trump's base is right about: they like him b/c he's the first guy on the other side of the aisle who will play just as dirty as the Left. When they put this country through hell for 4 years never worrying about the bigger whole it was all OK, but when Trump does it we have to rise up to stop him.

Sure he's a petulant, narcissistic egomaniac. So is Governor Newsome, so is Pelosi, so is Schumer, so is Cuomo, and NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE is a bigger egomaniac than Hillary Clinton.

We're up to our eyeballs in them. The only difference with Trump is that he's for the other side, and he's really really good at trolling.

I don't like the guy, I'm not defending him. I want him to get off the stage and let the Republican party re-focus around a Libertarian agenda without him in the way.

But I can't help to comment on the hypocrisy of letting the Democrats and their media henchmen run rampant in ways I've never seen in my lifetime without any outrage, and then somehow Trump is to blame completely once again for "undermining democracy".

I hear that all the time. I can assure anyone who is concerned that this is pretty much what democracy has looked like from the outset, and at times it's been far worse. I can also offer the perspective that, like most bad relationships, both sides are quite guilty of putting themselves first and the nation second.

Trump doing what he is doing is absolutely no more damaging than the Russian hoax, or the FBI destroying their credibility with political actions, or current boasts by people who already voted that they will move to Georgia to vote again.

Politics is ugly. Trump is so enraging b/c he's as comfortable in the mud as anyone on the other side, ginning up emotions and making absurd claims.

I dont' care for any of it, but I find it interesting that when the shoe is on the other foot we're supposed to ignore everything else that everyone else has done to get us here and solely talk about what must be done to stop Trump.

[ukpumacat]

And people just justify and excuse it all. But the Democrats did this. Russia! The Media! Are we not capable of just talking about the actions of the President of the United States without justifying them based on other people's actions (even if wrong)? He's the President (for 2 more months). No one else is.


Sounds like this is a no.

[Catfan73]

So when should we await the announcement from the Democrats that, after a complete fabrication of Russian collusion, Trump's election was in fact completely legitimate and they are officially apologizing for people like Adam Schiff falsely claiming to have evidence of wrongdoing?

Half of this country is convinced Trump won through some nefarious means, and the Democrats spent 4 years beating the message home. Now you're surprised people on the other side may think the same thing?

Everything you posted could be applied to the last 4 years we've endured, which has also endangered the health of the country.

One of the things Trump's base is right about: they like him b/c he's the first guy on the other side of the aisle who will play just as dirty as the Left. When they put this country through hell for 4 years never worrying about the bigger whole it was all OK, but when Trump does it we have to rise up to stop him.

Sure he's a petulant, narcissistic egomaniac. So is Governor Newsome, so is Pelosi, so is Schumer, so is Cuomo, and NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE is a bigger egomaniac than Hillary Clinton.

We're up to our eyeballs in them. The only difference with Trump is that he's for the other side, and he's really really good at trolling.

I don't like the guy, I'm not defending him. I want him to get off the stage and let the Republican party re-focus around a Libertarian agenda without him in the way.

But I can't help to comment on the hypocrisy of letting the Democrats and their media henchmen run rampant in ways I've never seen in my lifetime without any outrage, and then somehow Trump is to blame completely once again for "undermining democracy".

I hear that all the time. I can assure anyone who is concerned that this is pretty much what democracy has looked like from the outset, and at times it's been far worse. I can also offer the perspective that, like most bad relationships, both sides are quite guilty of putting themselves first and the nation second.

Trump doing what he is doing is absolutely no more damaging than the Russian hoax, or the FBI destroying their credibility with political actions, or current boasts by people who already voted that they will move to Georgia to vote again.

Politics is ugly. Trump is so enraging b/c he's as comfortable in the mud as anyone on the other side, ginning up emotions and making absurd claims.

I dont' care for any of it, but I find it interesting that when the shoe is on the other foot we're supposed to ignore everything else that everyone else has done to get us here and solely talk about what must be done to stop Trump.

I don’t really remember the Democrats trying to overturn the 2016 election outcome, in fact Hillary conceded within 24 hours iirc. But it is pretty well undisputed that Russia DID interfere in that election and unless we want Putin (or Xi Jinping or Kim Jong un or whoever) picking our leaders we need to fix that.

[CitizenBBN]

Puma, yes that's a no.

I'm more than capable of talking about "just Trump", but I think people also need some perspective.

Why? so we can stop acting like everything he does is the end of the world, a "threat to democracy", etc. that's all hyperbole.

The truth is this is democracy in action. It's ugly, b/c politics is ugly. Yes he's the POTUS, it would be nice if he would rise above it, but the Speaker of the House didn't, the Minority Leader didn't, the past Secretary of State sure didn't, so I'm not exactly surprised.

Trump is doing to Biden EXACTLY, no more no less, what the Left did to him. Trump is trying to make Biden appear illegitimate, and rally his base to resist. Sound familiar?

Should he stop and offer to hold hands?

Honestly, probably not, at least not politically. Why? for the same reason unilateral disarmament in the 1980s was a bad idea with Russia.

Clearly, taking these actions works. It works to demonize your opponent, in politics, in war, etc. It worked to rally people to defeat Trump, making increasingly unstable and wild claims about him.

He's just doing the same thing that was done to him. While I wish all of this wound end, I'm far from surprised.

Personally I've been consistent. I was outraged over Democrats pulling out all the stops, and I have never supported Trump and would like him to move on b/c he's a petulant child. But far too many people are holding him to a double standard. It's OK for the Democrats to undermine our institutions from the last election to the FBI to now SCOTUS, but when Trump does it OMG it's the end of the world.

Discussing just Trump is just a way to once again put all the blame on him, when he's really not the only person in this ugly relationship.

[CitizenBBN]

I don’t really remember the Democrats trying to overturn the 2016 election outcome, in fact Hillary conceded within 24 hours iirc. But it is pretty well undisputed that Russia DID interfere in that election and unless we want Putin (or Xi Jinping or Kim Jong un or whoever) picking our leaders we need to fix that.

They didn't overturn it with votes, they overturned it with the Russia collusion hoax.

Yes Russia ran facebook bots. So does China, so does Iran. I'm all for fixing it, but the claim and the Mueller investigation wasn't about just that, it was an effort to tie Trump directly to it to undermine his election. What impact they really have however is very debatable.

The night Trump won the Democrats called not for unity but for the #Resistance. Burn the bridges and the crops, fight to the bitter end.

Oh, and Hillary has said she regrets conceding, and told Biden not to if in the same situation.

[Darryl]

I don’t really remember the Democrats trying to overturn the 2016 election outcome, in fact Hillary conceded within 24 hours iirc. But it is pretty well undisputed that Russia DID interfere in that election and unless we want Putin (or Xi Jinping or Kim Jong un or whoever) picking our leaders we need to fix that.

Is this a serious post?

Darryl

[VirginiaCat]

This is where you and those of your beliefs and sides are deluded.

I believe that if Trump and this team DOES NOT force investigation and find the fraud that the will of the American People has not been followed.

IF votes were dumped or manipulated by software, those are false votes and means my vote has been disenfranchised. IF votes are allowed with out proper signature verification, my vote has been disenfranchised.

So, it is YOU who are not wanting to ensure the will of the people.



The issue isn't him conceding.

The issue is him trying to overturn the will of the American people. The issue is that he has Rudy G filing frivolous lawsuits all over the country trying to delay certifications (and getting thrown out of court in every one). The issue is him calling county board members to pressure them to not certify the election. The issue is him tweeting complete and total lies to millions of people that believe his every word.

If he wants to not concede and play a spoiled sport...fine...its his choice. But as the President of the United States during the worst pandemic in 100 years....lead?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/president-has-abdicated/617139/

[ukpumacat]

This is where you and those of your beliefs and sides are deluded.

I believe that if Trump and this team DOES NOT force investigation and find the fraud that the will of the American People has not been followed.

IF votes were dumped or manipulated by software, those are false votes and means my vote has been disenfranchised. IF votes are allowed with out proper signature verification, my vote has been disenfranchised.

So, it is YOU who are not wanting to ensure the will of the people.

You misunderstand. If votes were dumped and manipulated by software to change the results for Biden....I WANT an investigation.

So far, this is all simply Trump/Rudy G spouting it.
He says it in a microphone.
But yesterday, in a PA court, he said he was "not alleging fraud". Trump's lawyers have now said that in 6 states. What they are saying publicly and what they are filing are at complete and total odds.

The Georgia Secretary of State is a Republican. He adamantly says this did not happen. He's (and the Gov) is under immense pressure by Trump to cave in. So far they have not.

It is all completely illogical.

They claimed a massive national conspiracy. They claimed someone who works with Soros literally changed the votes by the hundreds of thousands for Biden to win.

And yet: The Republicans will hold on to the Senate (same ballot). The Republicans picked up seats in the House (same ballot). Trump GAINED votes (and % of votes) in most of these large cities from 2016 (Detroit, Philadelphia, etc) where Rudy is spouting this nonsense happened. Its ludicrous.

I mean, is it really that hard to imagine that we have one of the most unpopular President's of all time (likability/favorability wise) who is President during the worst pandemic in 100 years (and handled it awfully...but I digress) in an incredibly divided country lost? Do we really think cheating is the only way? Hell, Biden was favored by large margins to win (and I don't mean polls...I mean betting markets).

They are not going to win. They do not even have lawsuits in enough states to overturn 270. States are already certifying the results.

So what is the point?

To get the base fired up. To raise money to pay off campaign debt. To cry cheater. And to run again in 2024 (or use it to launch a news network).



This is an absolute clown show.

[catmanjack]

I am hugely disappointed in half the population pushing for a socialist government.
Pushing for handouts day after day and trying to ruin what America was built on.
Pride and hardwork.
Biden has had his hands in other countries pockets for 47 years and we turn the other cheek and post day after day that it doesn’t matter no one cares well I care he is a criminal and should be prosecuted.

[dan_bgblue]

This is an absolute clown show. \


Did you feel the same way about the impeachment process that was staged to undo the will of the people?

That my kind sir was clown show

[kingcat]

If OBama had helped challenge Hillary’s loss to Trump using the office of the President in every way to claim a Republican conspiracy to commit fraud I have a feeling those here would be in Washington with picks and axes.

And that was a close election.

Nah, this just means folks support whatever has to be done in hopes of overturning the election in most cases. That’s where America has come to. One man given power and complete trust who has shown no objection to misleading people to accomplish his goals and will not hesitate to fire or harass anyone who disagrees within his own party.
And most supporters refuse to draw any line as to what they accept from him.
Often even above American tradition and principles.

IMHO.

[ukpumacat]

I am hugely disappointed in half the population pushing for a socialist government.
Pushing for handouts day after day and trying to ruin what America was built on.
Pride and hardwork.
Biden has had his hands in other countries pockets for 47 years and we turn the other cheek and post day after day that it doesn’t matter no one cares well I care he is a criminal and should be prosecuted.

Even if every single thing you posted was true (its not)...it is what elections are for. And 51% of the country (by a margin in the millions) chose that person/vision.

I am saying this as genuinely and honestly as I can:

If Republicans will get their act together...they are likely to win back the House in 2022. In fact, after this election (and the gerrymandering and redistricting that will come from it), I would even say likely.

Our country is very very divided. So its that 10% in every election that decides it.

And guess what? For that 10%, the low tax argument WORKS. That 10% didn't choose Biden because they want their taxes raised. They chose him because they are just exhausted of Trump and the circus he brings (as well as his handling of Covid). And what he is doing now that the election is over simply CONFIRMS why they voted that way.

I'm not being mean (well not on purpose...just trying to make a point), but do you think that 10% in the middle believes Rudy G? Hair dye running down his face and blaming George Soros and Hugo Chavez for the election results. I hate to tell you, but that is raw steak for a red audience. No one else believes a word of it. And again, it simply confirms to them what they already thought about Trump and why they voted for Biden.

It was the same thing some on here said (I think Chuck) when the whole Defund the Police thing started. That was just an idiotic thing for any Dems to get behind. Biden thankfully saw that way ahead of time and refused it. But, someone on here posted...."defunding the police is stupid, but I am all for Dems saying it because it will cost them in the election." And they were right! It did.

This circus show happening with Trump and Rudy is stupid and dangerous. But I also think it will help Dems in the run-offs (I don't think enough) and in 2024 if Trump runs again. Politically speaking, this was the thing that Trump just never understood....elections are not won with your base, they are won by getting your base out (not a problem for him) and getting the middle to come your way. He simply never ever acknowledged that fact in any tangible way. It was literally the worst campaign strategy I have ever seen.

I am sort of joking here (as I am positive none of you would want this), but put me in charge of the next Republican Presidential campaign and your guy will win. Ha

I can assure you...raising taxes is a MUCH harder sell than lowering them. More restrictions is a MUCH harder sell than lessening them. So your team is starting out with a head start.
If they would just stop with the Trump circus and go back to their core values of less spending and lowering the national debt. And stay off of social issues that are unpopular. They could win the trifecta again in 2024. But that race has already started. Biden and Dems will be an incumbent. And he won't be nearly as scary after 4 years in office. So Republicans will have to win on what they stand for (which I think they have an advantage in) vs scaring people of what the other guy will do (which didn't work after that guy being in office for 8 years as VP and won't work 4 years from now.

P.S. And fwiw, I thought the very same things about my team the past 4 years. Them winning the House in 2018 was predictable. Trump was just unpopular. And I knew...if Dems will just get this right and not put up Bernie, and pick someone more moderate...they will win. And they did.

[ukpumacat]

This is an absolute clown show. \


Did you feel the same way about the impeachment process that was staged to undo the will of the people?

That my kind sir was clown show

Yes. And the Kavanaugh hearing.

[ukpumacat]

This is where you and those of your beliefs and sides are deluded.

I believe that if Trump and this team DOES NOT force investigation and find the fraud that the will of the American People has not been followed.

IF votes were dumped or manipulated by software, those are false votes and means my vote has been disenfranchised. IF votes are allowed with out proper signature verification, my vote has been disenfranchised.

So, it is YOU who are not wanting to ensure the will of the people.

And just so we are clear...this Dominion Voting nonsense that the attorney for the President of the United States was spouting today is a QAnon conspiracy theory that has been completely debunked.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/q-fades-qanon-s-dominion-voter-fraud-conspiracy-theory-reaches-n1247780

[ukpumacat]

And anyone that doesn't think this is dangerous, please understand what they are trying (but will fail) to do.

They are not going to win in court. The DOJ will not investigate and find widespread fraud. None of that will happen.

They have the right to show evidence of fraud in court and fight it legally.

THAT is not what they are doing. They are not alleging fraud in court because they can't prove any of it.

So, they are trying to pressure Republican legislatures to ignore the voters and select their own electors.

https://twitter.com/AmyEGardner/status/1329468989983125505?s=20

https://twitter.com/JennaEllisEsq/status/1328844700883808260?s=20

THAT is unbelievably dangerous. That is some deep state, back room bs.

And if this election had of been closer...might have actually worked.

[kingcat]

By “that’s what America has come to” I mean to point out it could happen to either side given opportunity. At some point we have to draw a line between patriotism and party loyalty. When that party becomes a man there is a scary problem.

[ukpumacat]

By “that’s what America has come to” I mean to point out it could happen to either side given opportunity.

Absolutely. And it can never ever happen.

[ukpumacat]

https://twitter.com/FirenzeMike/status/1329513809732657152?s=20

[UKHistory]

And I am not optimistic that he won't eventually succeed. As Trump cries fraud (wolf) he is committing fraud. As he says the democrats that is what he is doing.

Trump himself raised the alarm about the dangers of mail in ballots. He put that out there, planting the seed that the democrats would resort to foul play as he puts the screws to state and local officials.

Had mail in ballots been allowed to be counted as they came in or immediately before the election, there would be no appearance that Trump had a lead stolen.

Every move Trump has made since the inauguration where he was the sorest winner on any stage I have ever seen, foreshadowed how he would disregard the Constitution and the Will of the people.

70 million voted for him. But 74 million came out against him.

By firing the Secretary of Defense, Chris Krebs and others who are loyal to the Constitution over him personally, Trump is setting the stage to end our democracy.

He really is. God save this nation from itself and Donald Twitler.

[Basket Case]

If OBama had helped challenge Hillary’s loss to Trump using the office of the President in every way to claim a Republican conspiracy to commit fraud I have a feeling those here would be in Washington with picks and axes.

And that was a close election.

Nah, this just means folks support whatever has to be done in hopes of overturning the election in most cases. That’s where America has come to. One man given power and complete trust who has shown no objection to misleading people to accomplish his goals and will not hesitate to fire or harass anyone who disagrees within his own party.
And most supporters refuse to draw any line as to what they accept from him.
Often even above American tradition and principles.

IMHO.

Obama did something much worse. He used the power of the government to secretly spy on the opposition. This was the 2nd time he used a government agency(IRS) against political opposition. The fact that this isn't completely and utterly unacceptable to some just proves to me that there is a chasm that may never be bridged. If you (they) won't speak out about these morally reprehensible actions I'm afraid we are headed down a path were things will escalate in contentiousness until there is no turning back.

I do think it is somewhat of a clown show. I also think the key point here is that the election process isn't transparent and efficient but for a handful of states has merit. Every state should have a transparent and efficient process that we can all have faith in. Trump doesn't have to concede and can certainly wait for certification. For the (D)s to claim the high road here is absurd.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I am hugely disappointed in half the population pushing for a socialist government.
Pushing for handouts day after day and trying to ruin what America was built on.
Pride and hardwork.
Biden has had his hands in other countries pockets for 47 years and we turn the other cheek and post day after day that it doesn’t matter no one cares well I care he is a criminal and should be prosecuted.

Kentucky and many other southern states only survive based on handouts and social programs.

I am ALL for limiting the number of dollars that states receive from the federal government limited to the dollars in which they put in.

How about you?

[catmanjack]

Of course I am, stand on your own and earn the respect.

[kingcat]

I'm not declaring any high road as democrat. But I am as an American.

This country is not a farce as her enemies claim..nor a nation where "We the People" is just saying to keep it's citizens in check.

Now, many republicans are eating their own to prop up Donald Trump's conspiracy theories and wild claims and willing to support anything he does and condemn anyone he might condemn along the way. Without any proof needed.
And because one man, who we know fires or brings pressure to bare on anyone who might disagree with him, claims America is a cesspool's of deep state corruption and rigged elections...many choose to trust him over our nations government and support electoral retaliation against a completely unproven accusation to maintain power against the will of the people. When if another nation accused us of the same it would be met with united hostility and likely sanctions along with ongoing mistrust. And if they personally interfered with that process would probably meet swift military action

Contesting an election is one thing...spewing vile accusations at the legitimacy of this country's voice is another. Shame if that line in the sand of patriotism is not drawn.

And all it requires of anyone is am, If true..dont go there Mr. President. ..which I have not heard.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Lies, hypocrisy and delusion summed up...


His response was to spy on Trump and haves his administration set up a sting operation on his staff.




So when should we await the announcement from the Democrats that, after a complete fabrication of Russian collusion, Trump's election was in fact completely legitimate and they are officially apologizing for people like Adam Schiff falsely claiming to have evidence of wrongdoing?

Half of this country is convinced Trump won through some nefarious means, and the Democrats spent 4 years beating the message home. Now you're surprised people on the other side may think the same thing?


Sure he's a petulant, narcissistic egomaniac. So is Governor Newsome, so is Pelosi, so is Schumer, so is Cuomo, and NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE is a bigger egomaniac than Hillary Clinton.

I don't like the guy, I'm not defending him. I want him to get off the stage and let the Republican party re-focus around a Libertarian agenda without him in the way.

Trump doing what he is doing is absolutely no more damaging than the Russian hoax, or the FBI destroying their credibility with political actions, or current boasts by people who already voted that they will move to Georgia to vote again.







Why? so we can stop acting like everything he does is the end of the world, a "threat to democracy", etc. that's all hyperbole.

Trump is doing to Biden EXACTLY, no more no less, what the Left did to him.


Personally I've been consistent. I was outraged over Democrats pulling out all the stops, and I have never supported Trump and would like him to move on b/c he's a petulant child.






They didn't overturn it with votes, they overturned it with the Russia collusion hoax.

I'm all for fixing it, but the claim and the Mueller investigation wasn't about just that, it was an effort to tie Trump directly to it to undermine his election. What impact they really have however is very debatable.

The night Trump won the Democrats called not for unity but for the #Resistance. Burn the bridges and the crops, fight to the bitter end.

Oh, and Hillary has said she regrets conceding, and told Biden not to if in the same situation.




This is where you and those of your beliefs and sides are deluded.

I believe that if Trump and this team DOES NOT force investigation and find the fraud that the will of the American People has not been followed.

IF votes were dumped or manipulated by software, those are false votes and means my vote has been disenfranchised. IF votes are allowed with out proper signature verification, my vote has been disenfranchised.

So, it is YOU who are not wanting to ensure the will of the people.





I am hugely disappointed in half the population pushing for a socialist government.
Pushing for handouts day after day and trying to ruin what America was built on.
Pride and hardwork.
Biden has had his hands in other countries pockets for 47 years and we turn the other cheek and post day after day that it doesn’t matter no one cares well I care he is a criminal and should be prosecuted.





This is an absolute clown show. \


Did you feel the same way about the impeachment process that was staged to undo the will of the people?

That my kind sir was clown show




Obama did something much worse. He used the power of the government to secretly spy on the opposition.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Of course I am, stand on your own and earn the respect.

Then why are you not standing up and say to Kentucky and all the other states to return those federal tax dollars?

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I'm just going to say this, because its been driving me crazy.

But, the levels that Donald Trump has gone to that we all just allow and expect are not only unprecedented, but are just flat wrong. And we are all so numb to his antics, and dismiss his twitter as "just words and not actions" that we can't see the forrest from the trees.

The fact that he won't concede is insanity. Yes, it was predictable. Yes, we all know it matches his personality. He's an elitist. He's a narcissist. And he's admitted in interviews he's the worst kind of loser.
He warned us all this was coming. Not just on voter fraud. He refused to answer in 2016 when they asked if he would concede if he lost to Hillary. He refused to answer in multiple debates this year if there would be a peaceful transition of power.

But just because we expect it and just because people dismiss it doesn't make it any less striking.

The acting President of the United States is refusing to admit he lost an election that he very clearly lost by millions of votes in multiple states. And beyond that, he is actively spreading disinformation, filing frivolous lawsuits that are being tossed out of court one after another and has yet to produce one iota of evidence of voter fraud.

Look, if some of you guys want to stay on this, "but there is voter fraud and we should fix it" line of thinking....fine. Do it NOT when Trump lost. Do it in 2016. Do it the 4 years he's President. I am ALL for that. Where there are problems, let's fix them.

But, refusing to acknowledge the VERY clear will of the people is anti-democracy, autocratic and fascist. Pressuring voting boards to refuse to certify the results of an election is just plain wrong. Tweeting lie after lie to your millions of followers is wrong. His words do matter. Because his words lead to actions. And these actions are incredibly harmful.

We are about to enter the darkest weeks of this pandemic yet. And instead of leading us through it, he's obsessed with trying to overthrow an election that he lost. Some of you have called him boorish and a bully. But this is far beyond that. This is outright democratic sabotage. And us all acknowledging that there are things in the voting process that need to be fixed is not mutually exclusive to saying that his behavior is wrong and frankly, scary.

And people just justify and excuse it all. But the Democrats did this. Russia! The Media! Are we not capable of just talking about the actions of the President of the United States without justifying them based on other people's actions (even if wrong)? He's the President (for 2 more months). No one else is.

Ben Sasse has a backbone. And he called Trump exactly what we all see. When will some of the other Republican leaders stand up and say, "enough is enough. The people voted. We will respect their vote."? They all know this election will not change. We all know this election will not change. And yet, people just act like his behavior is just "Trump being Trump".
This is dangerous. Its not bringing "light to election issues". Its doing the complete opposite. Its ensuring they will never get fixed because he's now cemented them as completely partisan.

If you actually care about making sure there is no election fraud...this needs to stop. This is the opposite of fixing it. Everyone (the world, world leaders, most of America) except for his most ardent supporters see this as exactly what it is: a man who has never cared more about the country than he has himself...and is showing it in spades in his final days.

To quote his acting attorney (before she was working for him): "I could spend a full-time job just responding to the ridiculously illogical, inconsistent, and blatantly stupid arguments supporting Trump. But here's the thing: his supporters DON'T CARE about facts or logic. They aren't seeking truth. Trump probably could shoot someone in the middle of NYC and not lose support. And this is the cumulative reason why this nation is in such terrible shape: We don't have truth seekers; we have narcissists."

:sHa_clap2:

Very well said.

It doesn't surprise me at all that there were so many replies of "what about ..." that are false talking points from Trump and right wing media.

[catmanjack]

It’s my damn tax money, Stu you are very delusional, I understand where puma is coming from but not you at all.

[catmanjack]

I see you arm and arm with the squad, a great group of dems!

[CitizenBBN]

Now, many republicans are eating their own to prop up Donald Trump's conspiracy theories and wild claims and willing to support anything he does and condemn anyone he might condemn along the way. Without any proof needed.
And because one man, who we know fires or brings pressure to bare on anyone who might disagree with him, claims America is a cesspool's of deep state corruption and rigged elections...many choose to trust him over our nations government and support electoral retaliation against a completely unproven accusation to maintain power against the will of the people.

You see the irony of this I hope, having been convinced with no evidence whatsoever of Trump having colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election?

As for the "deep state", no one would be more believing or fearful of such a thing than our Founders. The whole goal of our system was to disperse this power they have accumulated in Washington b/c it's basically a given that they will be corrupted by the power.

I knew long before Trump came along that there was rampant self interest dealing and corruption in Washington. Foreign governments didn't give hundreds of millions to the Clinton Foundation b/c they care so much for Haiti. The second Hillary was out of power they all stopped by complete coincidence despite Haiti being just as bad off as ever.

I don't "trust [Trump] over our nation's government". I just don't trust government at all, and neither did Thomas JEfferson or John Adams or Patrick Henry or Thomas Paine.

Neither did George Orwell, Ray Bradbury or a host of others. So I'm in very good company.

What's interesting to me is you trusted Adam Schiff and others who accused Trump of collusion, with no produced evidence whatsoever, and we now know they flat out lied, and yet we're supposed to just blindly keep on trusting our leaders. Why? They lie all the time. They're pandering hypocrites, Trump included. Why would we trust any of them?

Trump isn't creating this distrust, any more than he created this populist shift. He's not the cause, he's the result. People shouldn't trust government, and after the Russian hoax it's no surprise that many on the right trust it even less than before.

I never trusted it, and don't trust big corporations either. Power corrupts. It's that simple.

[CitizenBBN]

:sHa_clap2:

Very well said.

It doesn't surprise me at all that there were so many replies of "what about ..." that are false talking points from Trump and right wing media.

They aren't "talking points", and there is your condescension showing again. We aren't being told to say these things and repeating them like lapdogs. If Trump hadn't questioned a single vote I would believe the same exact things I believe about our process, etc.

These "talking points" have been issues for our process long before Trump came along.

As for the deflecting thing, you guys want to have a trial with some pretty narrow rules of evidence. The truth is what Trump is doing is far more legal than the Russia hoax method of challenging an election, and in the end this is nothing bout a delay and even an annoyance.

He's suing for recounts. OMG, it's the end of democracy!

Just like how questioning the judiciary when Trump does it is the end of the world, but calling for court packing is all perfectly OK.

As for Trump, it's inaccurate to look at his actions in a vacuum, though that has been the position of his enemies all along.

"Oh my God, he's undermined the Supreme Court and Democracy by criticizing their decision".

"Uh, every President has criticized the Supreme Court from time to time, from Obama to Madison".

"You're just trying to deflect from what evil thing Trump has done."

No, we're trying to put Trump's actions into actual perspective.

What you want is a trial where we try Joe for shooting Tom, but we can't submit into evidence that Tom was breaking into Joe's house at the time. "This is about what Joe did, not what Tom did." Uh huh.

The Democrats staged a 4 year attempt to undermine a legitimately elected President by casting doubt on his loyalties and outright claiming the election was the result of foreign influence and deep corruption at the highest levels of our elected offices.

Not one lamented how that would hurt democracy or our institutions.

Now we need to sit that aside and focus on how Trump has taken that playbook and is running the same kind of plays. Of course except Trump is following the law while the FBI and others did not.

When Trump criticized the judiciary it was the end of the world. Now the Dems call for court packing and it's somehow not the same at all.

This is the same thing. When the Left undermines an election with nonsense it's OK, when Trump does it we need to just talk about Trump.

[kingcat]

I in no way mean to lump everyone into a group. Remember I am not just talking to my friends here I am talking to three family member and my partner in the cd's production, as well as others I am acquainted with. And the few pundits and followers of "The Donald" In as generalized way as is possible in a discussion where we disagree.
The first four I mentioned are Qanon followers.

Not everyone here, or elsewhere, is being singled out in any way. In most instances I don't have proof of how convinced anyone is of anything they might post.
Nor whether they may have drawn such a line as I mentioned but will not mention it here, because it isn't met presently.

I do feel strongly about this, but let's again try not to read each other too harshly on such a sensitive subject. We can disagree without overt anger if we try.
I respect an opinion even if I think it very wrong. But I of all people know how easy it is to consider yourself being attacked, when your view is the intended target.

A tough distinction to make.

[dan_bgblue]

The first four I mentioned are Qanon followers.

I am sorry about that but I do wish you would not bring them or their misguided ideas into the discussion here. I for one am trying to contribute to a sensible discussion, and I can not do that when QAnon is being made part of the discussio0n.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

It’s my damn tax money, Stu you are very delusional, I understand where puma is coming from but not you at all.

It’s my tax dollars too being spent in KY.

Do you not understand that for every dollar that Kentuckians pay in taxes, they receive two dollars back?

If there are people that complain about how their tax dollars are being spent, it should start and end with the people in states that are subsidizing states like KY.

Your tax dollars don’t do anything outside your state.

That shouldn’t be something difficult to understand.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

They aren't "talking points", and there is your condescension showing again.

They are talking points and void of fact. And, once again, you are perceiving condescension with simply not standing for BS.

I made a point in another thread last week about watching Fox News. There are persuasive positions on the right, but they are SO diluted with lies.

[kingcat]

I am sorry about that but I do wish you would not bring them or their misguided ideas into the discussion here. I for one am trying to contribute to a sensible discussion, and I can not do that when QAnon is being made part of the discussio0n.

That makes zero sense to me Dan. I was making a point that I believe everyone understood. I did not bring any issue of theirs or Qanons to this board.
My point, which it seems you overlooked, was that everyone responds on an issue having been influenced by their everyday life and the people they know. And they should not take it too personally.

Something I believe we should all aspire to comprehend. But I guess it did not work.
It was an effort at moderation that you have an obvious problem with (poor as it might be), and nothing related to discussing issues. Meant to help, not to hurt.

I'm always interested in what you have to add to this or any discussion.

[kingcat]

As I look back on it, my post above which was meant to help (since I added to the argumentative atmosphere myself)...and I digress. It is perhaps the most longwinded attempt to say something simple in the history of writing.

Forgive me

[CitizenBBN]

They are talking points and void of fact. And, once again, you are perceiving condescension with simply not standing for BS.

I made a point in another thread last week about watching Fox News. There are persuasive positions on the right, but they are SO diluted with lies.

I don't watch Fox News. OR any spoonfed news drivel.

They aren't talking points, as I learned about them in the study of US history and from the simple common sense of being able to see how to game a system.

And yes that's your condescension. You don't engage with the issue with analysis, you dismiss, mostly with logical fallacies.

There are numerous obvious ways to cheat in an election. I don't know how much it can be done in sheer quantity, but the failure points are obvious and I've railed against them since long before Trump arrived.

In fact poor backward Kentucky is one of the few states to have at least a decent election system in place, since many counties are automated, ID is required and you have to be registered to vote in your district.

[CitizenBBN]

It is perhaps the most longwinded attempt to say something simple in the history of writing.



Hey man, don't start stepping on my turf. Long, convoluted, longwinded posts is my street corner. Go get your own gimmick. :)

[kingcat]

Hey man, don't start stepping on my turf. Long, convoluted, longwinded posts is my street corner. Go get your own gimmick. :)

:unworthy:

[CitizenBBN]

lol

[ukpumacat]

Hey man, don't start stepping on my turf. Long, convoluted, longwinded posts is my street corner. Go get your own gimmick. :)

Ha

[ukpumacat]

I give Mitt credit here. Granted, he’s independently wealthy, in a safe seat and loved by his state. So it’s easier for him to speak out than others.
But, he’s a genuine conservative and it’s nice to see someone say it on that side of the aisle.

https://twitter.com/mittromney/status/1329629701447573504?s=21

Ps. Joni Erst did today as well. I genuinely think that presser jumped the shark for a lot these folks. We will see others speak out in the next few days.

[ukpumacat]

Sasse speaks out now as well. Keep em coming.

https://twitter.com/foxreports/status/1329628700065878016?s=21

“We are a nation of laws, not tweets.”

Haha. He is not a fan of the man.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

I give Mitt credit here. Granted, he’s independently wealthy, in a safe seat and loved by his state. So it’s easier for him to speak out than others.
But, he’s a genuine conservative and it’s nice to see someone say it on that side of the aisle.

https://twitter.com/mittromney/status/1329629701447573504?s=21

Ps. Joni Erst did today as well. I genuinely think that presser jumped the shark for a lot these folks. We will see others speak out in the next few days.

You beat me to it was just about to post the same thing.


These are strong and accurate words. It's not just "threat to democracy" hyperbole.

To minimize or deny what is happening in these current times shows a real lack of understanding and knowledge of history. To imply that this is just another partisan era of politics, just another ego is, or this is not as bad as this or that really shows a lack of ability to comprehend the severity and consequences of the division and how one person can influence. It is beyond trying to understand how we got here and more about how we can, over time, get to a better place.

[CitizenBBN]

You beat me to it was just about to post the same thing.


These are strong and accurate words. It's not just "threat to democracy" hyperbole.

To minimize or deny what is happening in these current times shows a real lack of understanding and knowledge of history. To imply that this is just another partisan era of politics, just another ego is, or this is not as bad as this or that really shows a lack of ability to comprehend the severity and consequences of the division and how one person can influence. It is beyond trying to understand how we got here and more about how we can, over time, get to a better place.

We can start with this.

I have acknowledged on here from the outset that what Trump is doing is political. I do think there is fraud in our election system, and thought it way before Trump was on the scene, but I don't know how much.

But what Trump is doing is definitely political.

Can you now acknowledge that the entire Russia/Mueller investigation was also purely political, that it was conceived for political purposes and also undermined the legitimacy of a duly elected President for pure political purposes?

I criticize the GOP on here frequently, and I know almost all of what we see from both parties is just political theater. Liberal leaders don't lie awake at night worried about the homeless sleeping in the streets, and conservative leaders don't toss and turn over the national debt. They just worry about winning and staying in power.

If we can stop buying their puppet show, and stop with the demonization of anyone who dares disagree with our ideology, then we can probably make some progress on narrowing that division.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a racist, and not everyone who disagrees with me is a Communist. We can start there.

[ukpumacat]

We can start with this.

I have acknowledged on here from the outset that what Trump is doing is political. I do think there is fraud in our election system, and thought it way before Trump was on the scene, but I don't know how much.

But what Trump is doing is definitely political.

Can you now acknowledge that the entire Russia/Mueller investigation was also purely political, that it was conceived for political purposes and also undermined the legitimacy of a duly elected President for pure political purposes?

I criticize the GOP on here frequently, and I know almost all of what we see from both parties is just political theater. Liberal leaders don't lie awake at night worried about the homeless sleeping in the streets, and conservative leaders don't toss and turn over the national debt. They just worry about winning and staying in power.

If we can stop buying their puppet show, and stop with the demonization of anyone who dares disagree with our ideology, then we can probably make some progress on narrowing that division.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a racist, and not everyone who disagrees with me is a Communist. We can start there.

Chuck, I thought the impeachment was stupid when it happened and have posted this for a while. For a few reasons. Yes, like you said, it was politically driven. But more than that (from my pov which was not your point)...it was politically stupid.
The House knew there was zero chance the Senate was impeaching him. So the entire point was political theatre. To get back at him. I thought it was terribly conceived and I thought it was harmful to Democratic causes. And I think it hurt down the ballot in this election.
I also disagreed with how they handled the Kavanaugh hearing. I am all for (and was with Kavanaugh) investigating sexual misconduct. I am not for public spectacles that are done purely for political reasons. That was a clown show. And all it did was further divide the country.
I am simply not a fan of Pelosi or Schumer and haven't been for some time. I am also not a fan of Mitch.
This division did not start with Trump. And it won't end with him either.

Last thing...as much as we can agree on some election changes...I would love to see some primary changes. We have a system that drives candidates to their extremes and rewards the most extreme. This is going to get worse, not better.

[CitizenBBN]

Chuck, I thought the impeachment was stupid when it happened and have posted this for a while. For a few reasons. Yes, like you said, it was politically driven. But more than that (from my pov which was not your point)...it was politically stupid.
The House knew there was zero chance the Senate was impeaching him. So the entire point was political theatre. To get back at him. I thought it was terribly conceived and I thought it was harmful to Democratic causes. And I think it hurt down the ballot in this election.
I also disagreed with how they handled the Kavanaugh hearing. I am all for (and was with Kavanaugh) investigating sexual misconduct. I am not for public spectacles that are done purely for political reasons. That was a clown show. And all it did was further divide the country.
I am simply not a fan of Pelosi or Schumer and haven't been for some time. I am also not a fan of Mitch.
This division did not start with Trump. And it won't end with him either.

Last thing...as much as we can agree on some election changes...I would love to see some primary changes. We have a system that drives candidates to their extremes and rewards the most extreme. This is going to get worse, not better.

You and I have agreed on both modern impeachments.

But the question I asked was tougher. Can you admit the entire Russia/Mueller thing was a political concoction? that's the one that most of my liberal friends have to swallow hard on.

But it was. First, every politician in Washington has ties to foreign lobbyists. Hillary's campaign manager's brother is a registered foreign agent for Heaven's sake, it's everywhere. It was well known Russia was running bots etc. in the election, but there was no tie to Trump and they knew it.

Then we spend $50 million with all that prosecutorial power and find nothing. not a single case of collusion, even by the lower ranks.

And people still cling to it as if it's true. It was never true. It was a political construct pushed by the politicians and media to undermine Trump and tie him up politically.

If they wanted to investigate obvious ties to foreign powers they would have gone after the CLintons, who took hundreds of millions for a foundation they ran, with an 8 page letter from one of their handlers admitting to influence peddling, with cash payments from Russian interests for Bill Clinton speeches, and with Uranium One being approved. Not to mention destroyed emails and devices, etc. IF ever there was a case to investigate we had one, and nothing.

All of this is politics. Pelosi doesn't give a **** about the homeless of San Francisco, Newsom doesn't care if your holiday sucks or not.

The reason Trump and Bernie rose to prominence is b/c people are figuring out that our established elites don't are about us and are just speaking platitudes on both sides. The Tea Party, Bernie's rise, all of it is a POpulist revolt against the ruling class, b/c on both sides that ruling class is selling us out.

It's not left v. right, it's top v. bottom.

Which is why I'm a libertarian. B/c it diffuses the top from having power over us.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Where there are problems, let's fix them.

All Voter Fraud Matters :)

[ukpumacat]

Btw, Andrew Guiliani has Covid. He was part of Trump's legal team that has been holed up in a small meeting room. It probably explains why Rudy was sweating profusely (not kidding) in yesterday's clown show. He likely has it as well. Which means their entire legal team was exposed. And anyone else in that tiny room for the press conference yesterday.


https://www.axios.com/trump-giuliani-white-house-michigan-covid-abbbbcf3-e415-4d9d-8911-427be7b645b1.html?utm_campaign=organic&utm_medium=socialshare&utm_source=twitter

[ukpumacat]

In one of the affidavits they filed, the lawyers confused Minnesota (MN) with Michigan (MI). They used Michigan voter totals and Minnesota population totals. This is where they were trying to prove more people voted in Michigan than there are people.

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/11/do-trumps-lawyers-know-what-they-are-doing.php

[ukpumacat]

Honest question:

In our Nation's History, can anyone think of an instance where a sitting U.S. President attempted to subvert the will of the American people and stay in the White House?

And I am asking this seriously, not trying to make a point.

I am not talking about claiming there was fraud or filing a lawsuit. That has happened a few times that I can remember. But I cannot remember a President going this far. Actually meeting with Michigan Legislature leaders hoping they will ignore the vote and appoint their own electors.
Rudy G actually said this was part of their plan to overturn the election. To get legislatures to appoint different electors.

I was a History Major and cannot remember it happening. But, just curious if anyone else can. Has this ever happened?

[CitizenBBN]

Honest question:

In our Nation's History, can anyone think of an instance where a sitting U.S. President attempted to subvert the will of the American people and stay in the White House?

And I am asking this seriously, not trying to make a point.

I am not talking about claiming there was fraud or filing a lawsuit. That has happened a few times that I can remember. But I cannot remember a President going this far. Actually meeting with Michigan Legislature leaders hoping they will ignore the vote and appoint their own electors.
Rudy G actually said this was part of their plan to overturn the election. To get legislatures to appoint different electors.

I was a History Major and cannot remember it happening. But, just curious if anyone else can. Has this ever happened?

THat's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question.

Trump isn't trying to stay in office. He's setting up for his campaign that will run for 4 years. he's not "subverting the will of the American people", he's playing politics. You know it and so do I and so does everyone else.

[ukpumacat]

THat's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question.

Trump isn't trying to stay in office. He's setting up for his campaign that will run for 4 years. he's not "subverting the will of the American people", he's playing politics. You know it and so do I and so does everyone else.

Ha. I didn't mean it that way. I am asking honestly about precedent. I think he doesn't think it will work. But I think he is trying. Rudy G said he was.

But honestly, ignore Trump for a moment.

What happens if the State Board of Electors (2 Democrats and 2 Republicans) in Michigan refuse to certify the election results? That is an absolute threat to democracy. It has never ever happened that I can think of. That is what I am trying to ask.
And because there is no precedent, no one knows what will happen. Trump is meeting with the Republican Legislative leaders hoping it goes to them and that they will select their own electors.
My best understanding is that a judge could/would force them to certify or hold them in contempt. But no one seems to know since it has never happened.

[CitizenBBN]

Ha. I didn't mean it that way. I am asking honestly about precedent. I think he doesn't think it will work. But I think he is trying. Rudy G said he was.

But honestly, ignore Trump for a moment.

What happens if the State Board of Electors (2 Democrats and 2 Republicans) in Michigan refuse to certify the election results? That is an absolute threat to democracy. It has never ever happened that I can think of. That is what I am trying to ask.
And because there is no precedent, no one knows what will happen. Trump is meeting with the Republican Legislative leaders hoping it goes to them and that they will select their own electors.
My best understanding is that a judge could/would force them to certify or hold them in contempt. But no one seems to know since it has never happened.

Why do you see that as a threat to democracy?

Say they don't certify. Will Michigan decide to not have any elections in the future? Will the nation?

What exactly will it do, other than what we saw this year with even more people ginned up and out voting?

It's unprecedented, in an era of unprecedented.

Reid eliminating the filibuster for judicial appointments was unprecedented, a Senate rule that had stood basically since 1970, though cloture goes back to the early 1900s. Then McConnell raises the unprecedented to eliminate it for SCOTUS. Schumer is threatening to eliminate it completely, which would be truly unprecedented going back to a time when the Senate was elected by state legislatures.

We haven't even tried to pack a court since FDR failed, and that's on the table at least in threat.

We're in the middle of a 100 year political crisis, which is why I often cite the Hurst/Pulitzer days to describe our current media. Not a coincidence btw that we have a handful of companies that now control most of our news media, much as Hurst and Pulitzer were the dominant controlling voices of the media in that era.

But is it a threat to democracy? I fail to see what it is going to do that is going to in any way curtail the democratic process in the long run. If anything it's fueling the fire to vote.

[ukpumacat]

But is it a threat to democracy? I fail to see what it is going to do that is going to in any way curtail the democratic process in the long run. If anything it's fueling the fire to vote.

What?!? It isn't about future elections (well, not yet). If the will of the people is not honored, and different electors were chosen by the State legislature....and those electors chose a different candidate than the people voted into office....that isn't even a "threat to democracy" its an actual attack on it.
I literally cannot believe this is even debatable.

What would even be the point of voting if the will of the voters isn't honored??

[CitizenBBN]

What?!? It isn't about future elections (well, not yet). If the will of the people is not honored, and different electors were chosen by the State legislature....and those electors chose a different candidate than the people voted into office....that isn't even a "threat to democracy" its an actual attack on it.
I literally cannot believe this is even debatable.

What would even be the point of voting if the will of the voters isn't honored??

Well first off, to answer you question, this has exactly happened before, 1877 when Rutherford B Hayes was elected despite his opponent getting a majority of votes and the electoral count, due to the refusal of 3 states to certify the results for one or the other candidate. The whole thing was thrown to a special commission of Congress and Hayes emerged.

Then there is the election of 1824 when Jackson won a plurality but not a majority of electors in a 3 way race, and Henry Clay brokered a deal to make JQA the POTUS if he became Sec of State.

So it's happened, and democracy survived just fine.

I just take issue with everything the last 4 years being "a threat to democracy" or the Constitution, 99.9% of it from Trump.

It's just not going to happen. The course of democracy wasn't changed in 1877, wasn't changed in 1824, wasn't changed when Bush I and Gore was decided by SCOTUS along party lines, etc.

There's actually a lot of precedent for these things happening, and none has unhinged us.

And that goes to what I see as the hyperbole of "why vote if the vote isn't honored". In fact a lot of times in our history the vote wasn't "honored", depending on who you ask, and we got along fine the next time. In fact many now claim the vote isn't honored by the entire Electoral College system. They're wrong, but they sure believe it.

I'm just not a person given to hyperbole.

Esp. when the real threats have nothing to do with this stage drama. The real undoing of things will come if the filibuster ends or SCOTUS is packed. Biden won't pack the court and neither will the Senate, but they may be able to end the filibuster. That's going to be very very tempting.

That is a real, long term structural change that is a threat. Most of the rest of this is just theater. In the end biden will be POTUS, Trump will run a 4 year campaign to run again, and us pissants will all go about our lives and still vote like we have in every other election. Nothing will actually change if Michigan doesn't certify, any more than it changed in 1877 or 2000.

[ukpumacat]

Well first off, to answer you question, this has exactly happened before, 1877 when Rutherford B Hayes was elected despite his opponent getting a majority of votes and the electoral count, due to the refusal of 3 states to certify the results for one or the other candidate. The whole thing was thrown to a special commission of Congress and Hayes emerged.


I will have to go back and read up on that. Thanks.

[ukpumacat]

I don't know if it will be enough for the two Democratic candidates...but I still think all of this hurts the Republicans in the Senate run-offs. As I posted in the other thread, none of this plays well with that small % of movable voters.

Trump lost and Osoff still didn't win on the same ballot. Which means there are some Biden voters they can sway. The bases will both come out. But all of this nonsense just does not work with them. They watch the Rudy G stuff and just think he's crazy. They don't watch OANN or read Breitbart.

[KentuckyWildcat]

They watch the Rudy G stuff and just think he's crazy.

I consider myself fairly center, but keep in mind some of think both are crazy.

[CitizenBBN]

I will have to go back and read up on that. Thanks.

I'm weak on that one. I spent a lot of time in the 19th century but less on politics and more on political economy.

But I had a great class in the Age of Jackson and spent a lot of time on the 1824 election and later Jackson administration. Of course Jackson's base was so outraged they came out in 1828 and made him POTUS, and made JQA a one term President. A very familiar situation.

Actually that election and the subsequent 4 year campaign for Jackson may be instructive here on a few levels.

It's a great example of why I'm not too moved by the current hyperbole. In the running 1824 to 1828 election, as with any at that time, it was bitter and personal. Jackson was accused of everything from bigamy to cannibalism in the Coffin Handbills, and JQA was accused of being an agent for the Russian Czar while he was Ambassador to Russia and of course a host of other things.

Honestly the old days had nothing on QAnon. They made up all kinds of outrageous nonsense.

Then there were the Jackson supporters who, in support of "Old Hickory", brought hickory sticks to polling places to "encourage" voting the right way.

What we see today has nothing on the history of American elections, in either bitterness or brazenness or truthfulness.

Oh, and a PS for what we will see soon: Jackson in 1828 refused to go to the White House as was then customary, and JQA didn't go to the inauguration. It was very bitter.

[ukpumacat]

Oh, and a PS for what we will see soon: Jackson in 1828 refused to go to the White House as was then customary, and JQA didn't go to the inauguration. It was very bitter.

Ya, the Jackson stuff was intense. I love the stories of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. Two guys that hated each other in politics, wrote letters arguing about it (a modern day message board), and then gained tons of respect for each other and became lifelong friends. Died the exact same day, states apart...July 4th. Cool stuff.

I'm oddly interested to see what happens on Inauguration Day. If you were placing bets on whether Trump goes...?

[kingcat]

A dangerous time for democracy. I agree with Mitt Romney.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnPLKmQXUAIkCpg?format=jpg&name=900x900

[StuBleedsBlue2]

A dangerous time for democracy. I agree with Mitt Romney.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnPLKmQXUAIkCpg?format=jpg&name=900x900

Agreed. I also don’t buy that because it was tested before and passed that it can’t fail later. Every great empire eventually falls.

Besides that sentiment, there’s a “too big to fail” mentality, but when you have nearly 50m people that is ready to disavow democracy in favor of a wannabe authoritarian who has abandoned allies and warmed up to enemies and dictators, it’s very difficult NOT to question whether this is the time.

He has divided us. He has attacked our freedoms, declaring them our enemies. He has denigrated our soldiers and intelligence communities in favor of our enemies. He has violated our Constitution. He has broken laws in office. I can go on and on. The fact that it is just fine with so many and those people tend to have an intense hatred for their fellow Americans, a desire to “own” them. It’s a lethal and unprecedented challenge to our Democracy.

Thankfully he lost and we may not get to see what he would do with unlimited powers.

[ukpumacat]

Republican Senator Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania joins the others mentioned above. Just released a statement (after Rudy's latest lawsuit was dismissed):

9812

Strong statement honestly. Especially his Michigan comments. That whole "invite Michigan Representatives to Washington, put them up in Trump tower and serve them $500 bottles of Dom" while openly asking the Republican legislature of Michigan to "do the right thing" on twitter (send different electors and ignore the vote) isn't playing well.
And more and more GOP Senators are going to do this. They are all weighing the danger...piss off Trump and his followers by doing the right thing or alienate all moderate Republicans and independents and subvert the voters.

[ukpumacat]

And of course Trump has now attacked the Republican judge and Toomey.
These are always warning shots to others speaking out but they seem to have lost their effectiveness of late.

[ukpumacat]

Another strong statement from Chris Christie. Calls Trump's legal team/tactics a "National Embarrassment".

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1330547187705651206?s=20

[ukpumacat]

For those keeping score.

The legal team of Donald Trump is now alleging that communist money was funneled through Venezuela to Republican Governor Brian Kemp to elect Joe Biden as President (but of course won't produce any evidence. Its just what she has "heard".)

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1330556436062085122?s=20

For any of you who think QAnon is just a fringe group in the Republican Party....it has now infiltrated Trump's legal defense team.

From an American standpoint: this is dangerous, awful and disgusting.

From a Political standpoint: this is a complete and utter disaster. Its driving die hard Republicans to come out in support of Biden. And its made those more moderate Republicans who voted for Biden but otherwise Republican down ballot have to choose between a candidate and a gross conspiracy. Its just stupid politics.

[ukpumacat]

Rich Lowry, hyper conservative editor of the National Review just tweeted:

"It’s the all-purpose, burn-it-all-down, give-Joe-Biden-control-of-the-Senate conspiracy theory".

https://twitter.com/RichLowry/status/1330558295438974977?s=20

[kingcat]

Another strong statement from Chris Christie. Calls Trump's legal team/tactics a "National Embarrassment".

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1330547187705651206?s=20

It's very hard to admit one is mistaken about a man's character after giving him total trust. Trump succeeded in villainizing even George Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney who were stalwarts of the republican party and admired here for their character and leadership qualities. That, until they were told to believe otherwise.

And those who have went all in...seemingly have no recourse in where they apply their loyalty even if it means joining our enemies in bringing reproach to our country by accusations that amount to calling her a farce and a sham.

Even in defiance of those like the head of Homeland Security...who was immediately fired because he dare defend the United States against such accusations. Such defiance is actually not against democrats this time despite trying to paint it as such....it's against the United States of America.
And there is no word, many will believe except the word of Mr Trump. It does not matter what that may be.

The new Trump mantra should be changed from MAGA to MASE at this point.
Make America Something Else
It's nearing time for everyone to choose and let history decide the wisdom of that choice. In that light, maybe some will reconsider before it's too late.

Now, I firmly believe my friends here are also weighing these things in their mind. And I would not, by choice, want to offend any. Except in hope they consider that folks like me, just may be right in this instance.
I will defend any attack against my country with whatever voice is afforded me. And it is an attack imo.

And I will try not to post much more on the subject here. Everyone is entrenched in, and by their opinion.

[ukpumacat]

This is gettting juicy.

Trump (as expected) calls out Maryland Governor Larry Hogan for calling Joe Biden President Elect.
Hogan comes back with a scathing tweet:

https://twitter.com/govlarryhogan/status/1330581894841430017?s=21

This is popcorn stuff and I am here for it. Trumpism vs Republicans. Who wins?

[ukpumacat]

Murkowski joins the others.

https://twitter.com/acosta/status/1330658904569638912?s=21

[ukpumacat]

FYI. Trumps “legal team” says Sidney Powell is not on their legal team.
This is after they introduced her as part of their legal team at the clown show last week.
And after Trump tweeted saying she was a part of their legal team 2 weeks ago.

Fun stuff.