Lindsey Graham committing voter fraud

[ukpumacat]

This seems like it should get more attention. Fwiw, Graham denies doing this (obviously). But its a bad look for him since this Secretary of State is a lifelong Republican.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/georgia-secretary-state-raffensperger-says-sen-graham-asked-him-about-n1247968

[StuBleedsBlue2]

It is absolutely illegal. There is absolutely NO reason why a senator from South Carolina should be having a discussion about Georgia elections. He must be held accountable.

What people are missing from this story is that Graham is not alone.

[ukpumacat]

Another Republican was on the call as well. Gabe Sterling. Confirms Graham asked about tossing ballots.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Have not read the article and won't. I'm lazy and not worth the time right now. But I want all election fraud to be looked at so we can improve on it.

[dan_bgblue]

The SOS heard the question and then "inferred" a meaning from the question. He did not bother to ask he Senator what he meant by the question, he just went with his best guess and reported that to the AP as if it might have been factual.

That is what the public, you included, will "infer" from the news report without one ounce of fact to base it on.

[Doc]

ATLANTA — Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger said Monday that Sen. Lindsey Graham asked him whether he had the power to reject certain absentee ballots, a question he interpreted as a suggestion to toss out legally cast votes.

Asking a question is NOT a crime, and how somebody interprets that is not relevant.

Reading it how you want it to read won't change that.

But we can always count on ABC news for accuracy.

In fact it looks like Graham is asking LOTS of questions....likely questions democrats don't want answered because it might expose fraud. Fraud won't be exposed without asking questions


Graham asked him whether political bias might have caused elections workers to accept ballots with nonmatching signatures and whether Raffensperger could throw out all absentee ballots in counties with higher rates of nonmatching signatures, the secretary of state told the newspaper.

So when in doubt, assume the question asker is doing something untorrid because that is always beneficial.

[Doc]

The logic here is akin to me asking my wife if she knew a guy. If she said yes then I assume she slept with him.

[ukpumacat]

To be clear...this isn't just being reported on ABC. Its all over the place. And I watched the interview with the Secretary of State. Graham is saying he just asked the question. The SOS is NOT saying that. He is saying much more.
I didn't expect anyone on here to believe the report since fraud only happens on the Dem side...but its a huge story that should be posted.
Just reverse this...if the Democratic Secretary of State of North Carolina came out and said that Democrats were pressuring him to "lose some ballots" (and this is what the SOS said) it would be a 7 page thread on this board.
The SOS said Graham was pressuring him to "toss out legally cast ballots".
Graham denies this. But another Republican staffer was on the phone and confirms the SOS story.
That's the story.

P.S. This SOS is not receiving death threats toward he and his family.

[Doc]

To be clear...this isn't just being reported on ABC. Its all over the place. And I watched the interview with the Secretary of State. Graham is saying he just asked the question. The SOS is NOT saying that. He is saying much more.
I didn't expect anyone on here to believe the report since fraud only happens on the Dem side...but its a huge story that should be posted.
Just reverse this...if the Democratic Secretary of State of North Carolina came out and said that Democrats were pressuring him to "lose some ballots" (and this is what the SOS said) it would be a 7 page thread on this board.
The SOS said Graham was pressuring him to "toss out legally cast ballots".
Graham denies this. But another Republican staffer was on the phone and confirms the SOS story.
That's the story.

P.S. This SOS is not receiving death threats toward he and his family.

Who said or implied it should not be posted? Of course it should. It should also be accurately represented. Asking a question and committing a crime are two different things...unless you are a conservative. Then ask something equates to intent, or even action. The democrats impeached Trump for asking and ignore Biden when he did withhold money in return for a favor from Ukraine. Me, I take anything reported by the left or the media with a large degree of doubt. Past actions have shown that to be prudent. Of course that is my opinion, one I am entitled to. I read the article and don't see any "crime" or attempted "voter fraud"...as the leftist created title claims. However, you could be asking a question (Lindsey Graham committing voter fraud ?) and forgot the question mark. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

[kingcat]

The real question to be asked is, if he did, what?

[dan_bgblue]

I didn't expect anyone on here to believe the report

Based on the language used in the report that was linked here, how in the heck would you expect anyone to believe that Senator Graham asked the SOS to throw out a bunch of ballots?

If there is more that should be shared here to make a case, then please do. Please do not ask me to troll the MSM sites looking for news as I have had my fill of them. If there is a reputable print news site that has other quotes from the SOS, I am more than willing to read them

[KentuckyWildcat]

The logic here is akin to me asking my wife if she knew a guy. If she said yes then I assume she slept with him.

Reverse the genders and it seems to be a fair question...I just pretend I don't know anyone. I am better off. Not sure what this has to do with the OP but figured I'd share :)

[ukpumacat]

However, you could be asking a question (Lindsey Graham committing voter fraud ?) and forgot the question mark. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, I meant it as a question. I can't edit the title.

Again, I watched the interview live. I have it recorded. The SOS's exact words (from Graham) were not a question. They were a statement...."Look hard and see how many ballots you can throw out".

Graham denies this. He said he wasn't even talking about the Presidential election but instead was talking about the upcoming Senate run-off.
That is when the Republican staffer came out and said that was not true. He was on the call as well and heard what the SOS heard.
When Graham was pressed and asked why he was calling the SOS of Georgia in the first place he said he also talked to the SOS's in Arizona and Nevada. Both have now come out publicly and said that is a lie....that they have not talked to him.

[ukpumacat]

Based on the language used in the report that was linked here, how in the heck would you expect anyone to believe that Senator Graham asked the SOS to throw out a bunch of ballots?

If there is more that should be shared here to make a case, then please do. Please do not ask me to troll the MSM sites looking for news as I have had my fill of them. If there is a reputable print news site that has other quotes from the SOS, I am more than willing to read them

I just did. I gave the exact quote from the SOS in the interview.

[ukpumacat]

The real question to be asked is, if he did, what?

Its a crime for an elected official to pressure another elected official to throw out legal ballots.

Will anything come of it? Of course not. Its hearsay.

[kingcat]

There is no room for argument or hostility. A republican official is making the claim.
The phone call was made and the question asked. So if true and not some elaborate hoax..and it is possible attempted criminal election tampering or whatever...what is our response?

The charge is by a republican official regarding an attempt at having legal votes tossed by a republican senator who donated 500,000 dollars to help investigate voter fraud to overturn an American election.
That would seem to sound anyone's alarm bell that was actually turned on.

[Doc]

In the article, the SOS stated he "was asked"

Clearly the GOP does not believe Raffensparger is competent. So much so that some have called for his resignation (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/georgia-s-republican-secretary-state-rejects-call-resignation-two-gop-n1247187). So now we are to believe that a GOP senator would miraculously ask him to commit voter fraud? That does not make sense at face value Of course I can understand why some would see Raffensparger that way, considering how the GA election is such a clusterbomb. If I did my job as poorly as GA runs an election, along with some other states, I would be asked to resign or be fired. Ah, the joys of government work.

[Catonahottinroof]

That’s an absolutely fair question....

The real question to be asked is, if he did, what?

[Doc]

There is no room for argument or hostility. A republican official is making the claim.
The phone call was made and the question asked. So if true and not some elaborate hoax..and it is possible attempted criminal election tampering or whatever...what is our response?


No its not possible since I have been told many times that voter fraud never happens. The left says that all the time.

What, does Lindsey think Raffessperger is going to "throw out 14,000 votes" and it not get noticed? To me its pretty clear Graham is doing the leg work and the research to see how GA elections are run, because all states are different. Some are easy and logical, with little cheating. Others are complex, slow and ripe for fraud.

[kingcat]

No its not possible since I have been told many times that voter fraud never happens. The left says that all the time.

What, does Lindsey think Raffessperger is going to "throw out 14,000 votes" and it not get noticed? To me its pretty clear Graham is doing the leg work and the research to see how GA elections are run, because all states are different. Some are easy and logical, with little cheating. Others are complex, slow and ripe for fraud.

It seems much simpler than that to me. It's pretty clear what Graham was doing, but is it criminal? And if so, how do we feel about it.

Those are the only questions I see as relevant.

ESIT: I'd only add that I expect President Trump is livid with him.

[CitizenBBN]

Its a crime for an elected official to pressure another elected official to throw out legal ballots.

Will anything come of it? Of course not. Its hearsay.

It's not a crime to ask to throw out illegal ballots is it?

He didn't say "throw out legal ballots", even if he said it in every way interpreted negatively towards Graham. "See how many ballots you can throw out" doesn't imply legal or illegal ballots.

And you are way too informed to not know that both sides are actively using every trick in the book to throw out ballots they don't want counted, and have for a long time.

If anyone doesn't think this is routine they are fooling themselves. Lots ballots, ballot harvesting, the wonderful gray area of "curing" a ballot, all of it is rife with exactly these kinds of pressures.

Interesting you only posted the story when it happens on the GOP side, just as it is interesting others only post the Democratic ones.

The answer is of course to run an election a lot like the poor backward state of KEntucky, where you have to have a valid ID, and have to be on the voter rolls and be a real resident before you can vote. that eliminates a HUGE amount of the potential fraud and subjective leanings of those involved in the election.

Then go to an auditable computerized station to vote, and you'll, eliminate much of the issue. Open source software on each machine that can be inspected by either party.

But nothing is going to come of it just like how no one at the FBI will be prosecuted for the Russia hoax, or how all those honest, law-abiding Californians who are going to "move" to Georgia and try to vote will ever be in jail.

Everyone is so busy covering their side's ass that no one will just stand up and point out the whole system is corrupt. That was a lot of the appeal of Trump btw, pox on both your houses.

[CitizenBBN]

There is no room for argument or hostility. A republican official is making the claim.
The phone call was made and the question asked. So if true and not some elaborate hoax..and it is possible attempted criminal election tampering or whatever...what is our response?

The charge is by a republican official regarding an attempt at having legal votes tossed by a republican senator who donated 500,000 dollars to help investigate voter fraud to overturn an American election.
That would seem to sound anyone's alarm bell that was actually turned on.

You have wanted to prosecute people who question our election system, and here you are rightly pointing out that we may have problems in our election system. Do you take yourself to jail now? :)

That's the problem with the position. There have been numerous outrages already reported this election cycle, like how a Georgia county just forgets about 2,600 votes. Heretofore your position has been that pointing out that the system is corrupt and flawed and inaccurate is somehow undermining America and democracy, but clearly you now acknowledge that we have a case of the kind of problems you want us to not complain about otherwise.

The way to preserve this nation isn't to arrest people for saying things you don't like to have said. The way to preserve this nation is to protect the rights of every American, from the sane to the seemingly insane, to say what they want at the top of their lungs. Without censorship of government or massive corporations that are in bed with the government that gives them special legal protections and perks, so that all can hear.

It's also incumbent on us to listen and see what is going on. Does anyone really have any doubt that at this point every level of election official in Georgia is being pressured by both sides? ANy more than in 2000 when Bush lawyers were down in Florida trying to toss every ballot from Miami for any infraction while Gore lawyers were trying to toss every military ballot they could?

This is why liberalism and socialism fail. B/c people put humans in charge of institutions that have great power and wealth at stake and then are shocked those humans are deeply flawed and corruptible.

Honestly I don't care that Graham is pushing for his side, b/c I'm sure Democrats are pushing for theirs. If anyone thinks that will stop, when politics and the dirty game it is has been that way since before we had a written language, you're just following the definition of insanity.

The outrage should be that we have a system so poorly administered in this day and age, with blockchain audit trails, nearly unbreakable encryption and every other kind of technology, that any one man in any one state can actually have any impact on the vote counting. Of course the truth is that at every level any person in this process can have an influence, and at certain key points they can have great influence.

The system is broken. That should be our outrage, b/c I assure Graham isn't the first politician to try to pressure a political process for a favorable outcome, including an election. He isn't even the only one in the time it took me to type this post.

[CitizenBBN]

It seems much simpler than that to me. It's pretty clear what Graham was doing, but is it criminal? And if so, how do we feel about it.

Those are the only questions I see as relevant.

ESIT: I'd only add that I expect President Trump is livid with him.

I am curious with the apparently foregone conclusion in this thread that, even interpreting things as negatively as possible, if any of this is illegal at all.

First, did Graham ask for "legal" ballots to be removed? I don't think so, he just asked to see what ballots could be thrown out. Well, ballots get thrown out all the time for legal reasons, so isn't that just like asking the SoS to do his job and review all the votes and throw out the bad ones?

Now no one is that naive, he wants just certain ones thrown out, but it's not clear from what has been said that it's even close to asking for the SoS to even break the law.

And even if he did ask him to, is that illegal? You mean I can't go to the SoS site and email him and ask him to just burn 10,000 votes for the other guy without fear of being prosecuted? Is that really election tampering?

We can ask if it's "wrong", but to be blunt as hell, after 4 years of the totally false Russia hoax and total ignoring of Hillary's obvious criminal behavior along with that of a bunch of other people, I'm pretty jaded on anyone lecturing on "wrong".

We've had moral wrong up to our eyeballs for a long time in this country and no one seems to notice until it's the other side that does it, and no one was more dismissive of moral wrongness than Hillary. Though I will say it is pretty much gone completely from our discussion on both sides, so I don't even know if that's a consideration.

And I can guarantee that it's never been a factor in American politics. It's been a factor in the reactions of voters, but never in the actions of politicians. They just hope to not get caught, be it in things as grotesque as the Clinton Foundation or foreign influence peddling or as common as having affairs with 1-2 women while running for office.

[kingcat]

You have wanted to prosecute people who question our election system, and here you are rightly pointing out that we may have problems in our election system. Do you take yourself to jail now? :)

That's the problem with the position. There have been numerous outrages already reported this election cycle, like how a Georgia county just forgets about 2,600 votes. Heretofore your position has been that pointing out that the system is corrupt and flawed and inaccurate is somehow undermining America and democracy, but clearly you now acknowledge that we have a case of the kind of problems you want us to not complain about otherwise.


I dont recall wanting to prosecute anyone, but I may have. I get ornery like that sometimes when I'm hurting. :)

Recounts are performed for that very reason. Mistakes such as the one in Georgia are often made, and a close enough election corrects such common errors. That's according to the republican Georgia SOS which I heard. That is not fraud.

This is, almost laughably, much different. And you also also have chosen not to address the obvious question. If he did this, what?
The rest has been tossed round and round in numerous threads.

But as for the rest, which United States presidential election has been won or overturned due to fraud? Are you saying that many have been?

[dan_bgblue]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/17/lindsey-graham-spoke-election-officials-multiple-states-ballots/6326680002/

[kingcat]

I shouldn't have used laughably so in that way. I only mean we all understand the difference in directly tampering in a recount, with recorded evidence, in an election by a powerful senator, and a recount correction.

[ukpumacat]

Again, I wasn't being facetious above....its all hearsay. Having a witness to it makes it a stronger allegation but nothing will come of it. Its simply a bad look for Graham or any other Republican to pressure officials to change results (which again, Graham denies doing but the SOS took it that way).

This is all a cluster btw.

If you work backwards, its all easier...

Biden will be President on January 20th.

Everything until then will be posturing, accusations, ugliness, pressuring, failed lawsuits, politics, firings for those who aren't loyal, etc.
Everyone knows the game. Republican Senators are slowly starting to say publicly Biden won but even they have to be careful. No one wants Trump's twitter wrath. Several congratulated Kamala today...but won't do so publicly.

Everyone knew if Trump lost what this would be like....Hell. He's an elitist bully who has settled in court his way out of everything. He's trying with this. He said he would do it. Biden (notoriously) literally already had a huge team in place to fight it because he knew it was coming if he won.
Trump's lawyers have said over and over again in court they are not "claiming fraud". They are just looking for any loophole possible to keep states from certifying results.
Heck, even the DHS called this the most secure election in American history. And then that official was fired tonight.
Again, all of this won't matter as far as who is President. But the fallout is likely to be massive moving forward.

[kingcat]

Could it possibly affect the senate runoffs in Georgia?

[Catonahottinroof]

Well, everyone knew it because it was expected....having been told by the left for the past 4 years the Russians infiltrated our 2016 elections set the stage for this. The left is reaping what it had sown for the last 4 yrs. it’s tit for tat and I’m afraid the next 4 years will be more of the same.
Should congress flip right in 2022, you’ll likely see an inquiry in what Biden knew and when he know it over Burisma and his son’s plum job for favors. There will be no healing, no forward progress.
It’s time for a 3rd party to emerge that is above this crap.....

Again, I wasn't being facetious above....its all hearsay. Having a witness to it makes it a stronger allegation but nothing will come of it. Its simply a bad look for Graham or any other Republican to pressure officials to change results (which again, Graham denies doing but the SOS took it that way).

This is all a cluster btw.

If you work backwards, its all easier...

Biden will be President on January 20th.

Everything until then will be posturing, accusations, ugliness, pressuring, failed lawsuits, politics, firings for those who aren't loyal, etc.
Everyone knows the game. Republican Senators are slowly starting to say publicly Biden won but even they have to be careful. No one wants Trump's twitter wrath. Several congratulated Kamala today...but won't do so publicly.

Everyone knew if Trump lost what this would be like....Hell. He's an elitist bully who has settled in court his way out of everything. He's trying with this. He said he would do it. Biden (notoriously) literally already had a huge team in place to fight it because he knew it was coming if he won.
Trump's lawyers have said over and over again in court they are not "claiming fraud". They are just looking for any loophole possible to keep states from certifying results.
Heck, even the DHS called this the most secure election in American history. And then that official was fired tonight.
Again, all of this won't matter as far as who is President. But the fallout is likely to be massive moving forward.

[catmanjack]

I would say that’s the whole point Right.
Oh and of course Biden will be president CANT WAIT!

[catmanjack]

Who BLM, that’s what they are posturing for.

Well, everyone knew it because it was expected....having been told by the left for the past 4 years the Russians infiltrated our 2016 elections set the stage for this. The left is reaping what it had sown for the last 4 yrs. it’s tit for tat and I’m afraid the next 4 years will be more of the same.
Should congress flip right in 2022, you’ll likely see an inquiry in what Biden knew and when he know it over Burisma and his son’s plum job for favors. There will be no healing, no forward progress.
It’s time for a 3rd party to emerge that is above this crap.....

[CitizenBBN]

I dont recall wanting to prosecute anyone, but I may have. I get ornery like that sometimes when I'm hurting. :)

Recounts are performed for that very reason. Mistakes such as the one in Georgia are often made, and a close enough election corrects such common errors. That's according to the republican Georgia SOS which I heard. That is not fraud.

This is, almost laughably, much different. And you also also have chosen not to address the obvious question. If he did this, what?
The rest has been tossed round and round in numerous threads.

But as for the rest, which United States presidential election has been won or overturned due to fraud? Are you saying that many have been?

Does it strike you funny that there is a need for a "recount" at all?

When you go to the grocery, do you check your bill when you're done item by item and ask for a recount? No? Why not?

B/c the process is efficient, everything is scanned, and is well monitored, b/c you're standing there watching it.

Yet with something as important as elections we find ballots in the trash from postal workers, we find ballots as if by magic when we "recount", we have in some states people who get to guess as to what a voter meant, etc.

The very fact that we have recounts and find these kinds of errors is the problem. Call it fraud or not, but it points to the failures in what should be one of the most secure systems in the US government. It is not.

As you said, such mistakes are "often made". That should be your worry, not that politicians will be politicians. The worry is that they have any power whatsoever to influence the system, which is due to those "often made" mistakes. Those are in fact loopholes in the system, failure points open to corruption.

[CitizenBBN]

Well, everyone knew it because it was expected....having been told by the left for the past 4 years the Russians infiltrated our 2016 elections set the stage for this. The left is reaping what it had sown for the last 4 yrs. it’s tit for tat and I’m afraid the next 4 years will be more of the same.
Should congress flip right in 2022, you’ll likely see an inquiry in what Biden knew and when he know it over Burisma and his son’s plum job for favors. There will be no healing, no forward progress.
It’s time for a 3rd party to emerge that is above this crap.....

thank you good sir.

The left has told people for 4 years that the 2016 election was rigged, that Trump wasn't legitimate.

Now they are furious at Trump for borrowing their playbook. In the end that's all he's done.


And yes, I have prayed for decades for a shift in the magnetic poles of our two party system so that a Libertarian party could emerge.

Now is really a perfect time. The extreme left has alienated a lot of moderate voters, esp. blue collar workers and middle America. Likewise the extremist part of the Trump base has left many moderate conservatives with no home.

A pitch for fiscal conservatism and social liberalism would have some traction. Out of our bedrooms and out of our wallets. With proper financing it could be pitched to younger voters as well, though the stranglehold of stupidity the academic world has on this country is a lot to overcome.

[ukpumacat]

Does it strike you funny that there is a need for a "recount" at all?

When you go to the grocery, do you check your bill when you're done item by item and ask for a recount? No? Why not?

B/c the process is efficient, everything is scanned, and is well monitored, b/c you're standing there watching it.

Yet with something as important as elections we find ballots in the trash from postal workers, we find ballots as if by magic when we "recount", we have in some states people who get to guess as to what a voter meant, etc.

The very fact that we have recounts and find these kinds of errors is the problem. Call it fraud or not, but it points to the failures in what should be one of the most secure systems in the US government. It is not.

As you said, such mistakes are "often made". That should be your worry, not that politicians will be politicians. The worry is that they have any power whatsoever to influence the system, which is due to those "often made" mistakes. Those are in fact loopholes in the system, failure points open to corruption.

1. I do check my bill every time I leave the grocery. And I can assure you there are often errors on there. Probably 30% of the time. Far far more than the errors found during a recount. And that’s with the “efficient process in place where everything is scanned and monitored”.
2. The SYSTEM works. Recounts. Audits. Canvassing. They work. Mistakes are always made. And the system is there to correct them. The entire reason we know the few mistakes and fraud that does happen is because the system works to catch them.

[ukpumacat]

And I just want to go back to this....

I was on this board in 2016 when Trump won. There was not ONE thread on here about voter fraud afterward. Not one. Nothing about the need for election changes. Nothing about fixing the system. None of it.
Where were all of you guys concerned with Georgia’s election in 2018 when Kemp barely won governor??
Or when Trump barely beat Hillary in Wisconsin and PA? Where was all the concern then? Why didn’t we have post after post back then about the need to fix this stuff?

Instead, this was Trump’s tweet about Hillary (there’s a tweet for everything):

“Crooked Hillary Clinton is the worst (and biggest) loser of all time. She just can’t stop, which is so good for the Republican Party. Hillary, get on with your life and give it another try in three years!”

Couldn’t say it better myself. Move the f on.

[kingcat]

And I just want to go back to this....

I was on this board in 2016 when Trump won. There was not ONE thread on here about voter fraud afterward. Not one. Nothing about the need for election changes. Nothing about fixing the system. None of it.
Instead, this was Trump’s tweet about Hillary (there’s a tweet for everything):

“Crooked Hillary Clinton is the worst (and biggest) loser of all time. She just can’t stop, which is so good for the Republican Party. Hillary, get on with your life and give it another try in three years!”

Yeah but..

[Doc]

thank you good sir.

The left has told people for 4 years that the 2016 election was rigged, that Trump wasn't legitimate.

Now they are furious at Trump for borrowing their playbook. In the end that's all he's done.


And yes, I have prayed for decades for a shift in the magnetic poles of our two party system so that a Libertarian party could emerge.

Now is really a perfect time. The extreme left has alienated a lot of moderate voters, esp. blue collar workers and middle America. Likewise the extremist part of the Trump base has left many moderate conservatives with no home.

A pitch for fiscal conservatism and social liberalism would have some traction. Out of our bedrooms and out of our wallets. With proper financing it could be pitched to younger voters as well, though the stranglehold of stupidity the academic world has on this country is a lot to overcome.

Its quite an odd shift that for the last 4 years the left has shouted about election interference but now our elections are secure, and they determined that in 10 days.

Trump and many other Republicans predicted this because it was set up to making cheating simple. Many Republicans, myself included, have long touted the need to insure election security. The left worries about voters being diseinfranchised but have no issue with thousands of ineligible votes being counted. Way I see it, every ineligible vote cast disenfranchises one valid legal vote. Liberals get in an uproar over simple qualifying proof, ie voter ID, to insure legal votes yet don't seem to give a rats ass about illegal ones. They would prefer THOUSANDS or tens of thousands of illegal votes be cast over to possible disenfranchisement of lazy asses who can't get an ID, and thus not able to vote. Of course that assumes that the reason they oppose voter ID is because of a racial aspect...because minorities lack the ability to get an ID, and not so they can fraudulently cast votes.

[CitizenBBN]

1. I do check my bill every time I leave the grocery. And I can assure you there are often errors on there. Probably 30% of the time. Far far more than the errors found during a recount. And that’s with the “efficient process in place where everything is scanned and monitored”.
2. The SYSTEM works. Recounts. Audits. Canvassing. They work. Mistakes are always made. And the system is there to correct them. The entire reason we know the few mistakes and fraud that does happen is because the system works to catch them.

That's an utter joke.

First off, if your grocery store error rate is 30% then California is more screwed up than even this board thinks. lol. The biggest error there should be pricing in the computer or coding of fruits/veggies, which is a non issue in comparison to ballots, which are the handling equivalent of canned goods as far as losing boxes of them. They should be insanely hard to misplace.

Second, this system is awful. If I sent a settlement to a consignor and then had to audit it again and do recounts and find items of theirs I forgot to pay them for, I'd be out of business in weeks. No real business can have that kind of pitiful inventory control.

And in a real business there are only two reasons to lose what amounts to boxes worth of material. Poor procedures or theft.

How many diamonds do you think a diamond wholesaler loses a year? Are they worth more than votes?

The system is a joke. It's full of ways to cheat, and states like California, with a one party supermajority, is looking to create as many new ones as possible.

And no, we have no idea how much fraud really exists. States don't even begin to do things like Deming style quality control checks on ballots that were received, at least none that I've seen. Part of that is due to privacy, but you sure wouldn't build a car with parts that aren't quality checked statistically, but we don't seem to have any formal statistical modelling used by states to verify quality. In fact there's a link here to a long analysis done in that vein that raises serious questions.

I liked your post on the common ground in the middle, but I'm not sure I believe it. If we cannot all agree on things that seem obvious to me, like the horrible election system we run or the insane level of propaganda and bias in all media, I'm not sure how we work to fix things.

I can tell you this much. The absurd handling and recounting and auditing we see in election processes would be a great Harvard business Review case in how not to structure a plant floor. It reminds me of a piece work manufacturing facility that hasn't computerized. In those places you build in "slack" in parts and time due to the inefficiencies of communication and inventory tracking. Of course if you can develop a good MRP and computerize and get some good procedures in place, you can eliminate the slack inventory costs and downtime on equipment.

one of the funnier notions is that a "recount" can find all the fraud and failures. You send the same people to the same places to do a physical inventory of the goods they miscounted the first time. Yeah, that will be reliable.

The next time we discuss police misconduct I'll site the internal review done by other police as proof there's no misconduct. Somehow I doubt you'll believe it. :)

The very fact that entire boxes of ballots can just be "found" is stunning to me. Lord, if I just "found" a client's fine jewelry after we conducted their sale, I'd be ruined. No system is perfect, but I know a crappy, outdated one subject to what is politely called "shrinkage" on company ledgers, i.e. theft and fraud, when I see one.

And that's just their internal process. That doesn't even count the postal worker dumping a sack of ballots or harvesters going to nursing homes and "assisting" some half blind people in filling out their ballots, people voting with no ID, etc.

[CitizenBBN]

Its quite an odd shift that for the last 4 years the left has shouted about election interference but now our elections are secure, and they determined that in 10 days.

Trump and many other Republicans predicted this because it was set up to making cheating simple. Many Republicans, myself included, have long touted the need to insure election security. The left worries about voters being diseinfranchised but have no issue with thousands of ineligible votes being counted. Way I see it, every ineligible vote cast disenfranchises one valid legal vote. Liberals get in an uproar over simple qualifying proof, ie voter ID, to insure legal votes yet don't seem to give a rats ass about illegal ones. They would prefer THOUSANDS or tens of thousands of illegal votes be cast over to possible disenfranchisement of lazy ass who can't get an ID, who would not being able to vote. Of course that assumes that the reason they oppose voter ID is because of a racial aspect...because minorities lack the ability to get an ID, and not so they can fraudulently cast votes.

I have a simple test for anyone on this issue who defends the current system or wants any of the non-ID based systems.

Put your money where your mouth is. Repeal the Patriot Act, and let people buy plane tickets at the counter with no ID, no xray machines.

If you're OK being on those planes then you're at least honest. Otherwise you're a hypocrite, b/c that's the way we operate our election system in many states.

It really is that simple. If you think we should require ID to fly or enter a government building or rent a car or buy fertilizer, then you should surely want one for something as important as voting. If not then you're full of it IMO. that's harsh, but it's just too easy to find so many situations where we all agree an action needs a high level of security and confidence, but apparently electing our representatives isn't one of those actions.

[ukpumacat]

Oh, I think many things need to change, be updated and be done better. I am all for that.

As I said above, where was all this "concern" with the election process in 2016? Or 2018? There was none. Nada. Zilch on this board.

When Hillary lost, you won't find one post from me saying the election was rigged or that fraud cost her. Or in 2018.

Hillary lost because she was a terrible candidate. Not because Trump cheated.

And Trump lost because he was a terrible President. Not because Biden cheated.

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, I think many things need to change, be updated and be done better. I am all for that.

As I said above, where was all this "concern" with the election process in 2016? Or 2018? There was none. Nada. Zilch on this board.

When Hillary lost, you won't find one post from me saying the election was rigged or that fraud cost her. Or in 2018.

Hillary lost because she was a terrible candidate. Not because Trump cheated.

And Trump lost because he was a terrible President. Not because Biden cheated.

I think there was cheating in every election since the 1950s that on average favored Democrats.

Why? B/c I think there is cheating in every election, and Democrats have a stronger grassroots organization to exploit it. Nixon nearly contested West Virginia against Kennedy, we know how Chicago was run, this goes back a long way. I think the GOP would take full advantage if they could, it's just not as in their favor for a few reasons.

that being said Trump still could have won if he wasn't an incomparable ass, even with Covid. Without covid and he's not an ass he walks through this election. He's just not a likable guy and shows no qualities of leadership to bring people to him.

Likewise Hillary was simply unlikable.

But I have no doubt there is fraud in the system. I'm just not sure how much. But if the voter roles and fraud are off by only 1% that's still a lot of bad votes. With 140,000,000 that's still 1.4 million votes. There are a few estimates that the error rate in voter roles may be 2 or 3%, now that's enough to swing a national election much less a close state race.

[ukpumacat]

But I have no doubt there is fraud in the system. I'm just not sure how much. But if the voter roles and fraud are off by only 1% that's still a lot of bad votes. With 140,000,000 that's still 1.4 million votes. There are a few estimates that the error rate in voter roles may be 2 or 3%, now that's enough to swing a national election much less a close state race.

Parties change. Dems have as well. But there was a time (seems like forever ago) when the Republican Party was all about limited spending, balanced budgets, lowering the National debt and against frivolous lawsuits. Trump is the opposite of all of those things.

[kingcat]

:party0052: I voted.

This is the greatest country in the world. To think that me, as insignificant as I am, had my vote count the same as any big wig politician or multi-billionaire the nation. Amazing!

Shame on you Lindsey!

[CitizenBBN]

Parties change. Dems have as well. But there was a time (seems like forever ago) when the Republican Party was all about limited spending, balanced budgets, lowering the National debt and against frivolous lawsuits. Trump is the opposite of all of those things.

Are you waiting for me to disagree with you? I've railed on the GOP establishment for abandoning conservative principles on here since the second Bush administration, and I've railed on them overall since Bush I. I wanted Perot to win simply to force the GOP to reestablish itself, and I rail against elitism here in all its forms including the GOP form which is typified not just by Trump and Mitch but by Romney and McCain and all the others who have been in Washington so long they forgot what it is to live like the rest of us.

I'm not a Republican. At least not in any "my team" kind of way. My team is the Founding Fathers. I follow their vision and believe in individual liberty.

The GOP and even Trump happen to be closer to that ideal than the Democrats, who in their current form have no concern for equality before the law at all, and no worries about infringing on any individual liberty they find inconvenient to the greater good, but that certainly doesn't mean the GOP or Trump is close to what I think we should be doing.

What that has to do with the obvious efforts to build fraud into the election system I have no idea. When you want people to be able to vote without having an ID or being checked on voter rolls at all, that's beyond obvious what you are trying to do. It doesn't suppress anyone's voting rights to require they have a basic ID any more than it infringes on their freedom of association to require them to have one to get a plane ticket or rent a vehicle.

Allowing political operatives to collect physical ballots, allowing people to vote without any verification they are legally able to vote, using primitive systems for balloting that haven't been changed in a century are all ways to encourage fraud. How much they have managed to create I don't know, but I know a scam when I see one.

[ukpumacat]

Are you waiting for me to disagree with you? I've railed on the GOP establishment for abandoning conservative principles on here since the second Bush administration, and I've railed on them overall since Bush I. I wanted Perot to win simply to force the GOP to reestablish itself, and I rail against elitism here in all its forms including the GOP form which is typified not just by Trump and Mitch but by Romney and McCain and all the others who have been in Washington so long they forgot what it is to live like the rest of us.

I'm not a Republican. At least not in any "my team" kind of way. My team is the Founding Fathers. I follow their vision and believe in individual liberty.

The GOP and even Trump happen to be closer to that ideal than the Democrats, who in their current form have no concern for equality before the law at all, and no worries about infringing on any individual liberty they find inconvenient to the greater good, but that certainly doesn't mean the GOP or Trump is close to what I think we should be doing.

What that has to do with the obvious efforts to build fraud into the election system I have no idea. When you want people to be able to vote without having an ID or being checked on voter rolls at all, that's beyond obvious what you are trying to do. It doesn't suppress anyone's voting rights to require they have a basic ID any more than it infringes on their freedom of association to require them to have one to get a plane ticket or rent a vehicle.

Allowing political operatives to collect physical ballots, allowing people to vote without any verification they are legally able to vote, using primitive systems for balloting that haven't been changed in a century are all ways to encourage fraud. How much they have managed to create I don't know, but I know a scam when I see one.

Haha. This was my bad. Posted it on the wrong thread.

[Doc]

Oh, I think many things need to change, be updated and be done better. I am all for that.

As I said above, where was all this "concern" with the election process in 2016? Or 2018? There was none. Nada. Zilch on this board.

When Hillary lost, you won't find one post from me saying the election was rigged or that fraud cost her. Or in 2018.

Hillary lost because she was a terrible candidate. Not because Trump cheated.

And Trump lost because he was a terrible President. Not because Biden cheated.

Many on here posted fraud concerns in every one of the last 4-5 elections. And the reply was always voter fraud does not happen.

Were are all the leftist who cried about election interference for the last 4 years? Or does is that not a concern if your candidate wins? See, its like a wild west bar door...it swings both ways

[ukpumacat]

Many on here posted fraud concerns in every one of the last 4-5 elections. And the reply was always voter fraud does not happen.

Were are all the leftist who cried about election interference for the last 4 years? Or does is that not a concern if your candidate wins? See, its like a wild west bar door...it swings both ways

I can't speak for you. And I can't speak for other "leftist". But you will not find a post from me on here about election interference.

And once again...it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I do think suppression happens. I do think interference happens. I do think fraud happens. I do think mistakes happen.
I do not think any of them are the reasons Trump lost.
I am all for fixing them.
But its disingenuous to pretend that Trump cares about any of those things. He doesn't. He cares about winning and he lost. This is about Trump.
For you, it might not be. But you aren't the President with millions of twitter followers spreading outright lies.

[Doc]

Well apparently interference did not happen this year. Are you going to credit Trump for that? All that interference 4 years ago when Obama was President, where he told Russia to "cut it out" and it gave Trump the election according to the left. Fast Forward 4 years under a Trump administration yields zero foreign interference. Bet you are glad Trump addressed that, huh?

[ukpumacat]

Well apparently interference did not happen this year. Are you going to credit Trump for that? All that interference 4 years ago when Obama was President, where he told Russia to "cut it out" and it gave Trump the election according to the left. Fast Forward 4 years under a Trump administration yields zero foreign interference. Bet you are glad Trump addressed that, huh?

We know there was foreign interference this year. His head of NSA and the FBI told us Iran, Russia and China were doing just that. 4 years ago, most of that foreign interference happened on social media. They didn't "Change votes". They interfered by spreading misinformation (or worse). That happened this election as well.
Thankfully, Facebook and Twitter did not allow it to happen nearly to the same degree.
Its not why Hillary lost in 2016.
And its not why Trump lost in 2020.

Back to the OP....here is what I will give Trump absolute credit for:
He is very savvy at constantly forcing fellow Republicans to choose between
1. Doing his bidding and therefore remaining a Republican-in-good-standing in GOP circles
Or
2. Acting according to normal democratic values, but losing Republican-in-good-standing status.

Graham chose #1. So are most Republicans. Sasse chose #2 and won anyways. But Trump is an absolute expert at forcing the choice.

[ukpumacat]

Well apparently interference did not happen this year. Are you going to credit Trump for that? All that interference 4 years ago when Obama was President, where he told Russia to "cut it out" and it gave Trump the election according to the left. Fast Forward 4 years under a Trump administration yields zero foreign interference. Bet you are glad Trump addressed that, huh?

Trump's lawyer just said that China, Venezuela and Cuba interfered in this election to throw it for Biden.

[CitizenBBN]

Trump's lawyer just said that China, Venezuela and Cuba interfered in this election to throw it for Biden.

China did interfere, and it was reportedly to help Biden. That much is true per official reports. Not sure about the others.

Whether that interference is really significant is debatable. I'm far more concerned about the day to day influence foreign nations have in Washington through their agents and lobbyists.

[goodycat]

Trump's lawyer just said that China, Venezuela and Cuba interfered in this election to throw it for Biden.

But did Trump take some nonsense oppo research, send it to the FBI, have the FBI (and likely the CIA) conduct a clandestine investigation of the Biden campaign while the presidential campaign was still ongoing, use confidential informants against the Biden campaign also while the presidential campaign was still ongoing, get a secret court to authorize spying on a completely innocent American citizen based upon said nonsense oppo research because that person dared to work with the Biden campaign, and then work with the FBI director and the Assistant Attorney General to set up a framework to continue the clandestine investigation after Biden takes office without telling Biden who was the duly elected president? Will officials who worked for him leak information classified at the highest level to the press to undermine the incoming Biden administration and create a completely false narrative that dominates the news and severely hampers the incoming administration for more than two and a half years?

Unless and until the answers to those questions are yes, all complaints by democrats about what is happening now are completely unserious. The outgoing Obama administration and their holdovers in government did everything they could to undermine and, if possible, undo the outcome of the 2016 election. It's a little difficult to take shut up and concede seriously from the Russia, Russia, Russia, resistance crowd.

[ukpumacat]

It's a little difficult to take shut up and concede seriously from the Russia, Russia, Russia, resistance crowd.

If you have spent much time on this board you would know that I am not and never was one of that crowd. Not that it matters much either way.

[goodycat]

If you have spent much time on this board you would know that I am not and never was one of that crowd. Not that it matters much either way.

I was speaking more generally, not really specifically about you. That's why I referenced democrats in general in my comments. I didn't intend to imply what your views are one way or the other.

[ukpumacat]

I was speaking more generally, not really specifically about you. That's why I referenced democrats in general in my comments. I didn't intend to imply what your views are one way or the other.

No worries...just wanted to state it again. Ha

[Doc]

Trump's lawyer just said that China, Venezuela and Cuba interfered in this election to throw it for Biden.

China just expecting return on their investment