Misuse and Abuse of Power Using DHS personnel in Unconstitutional ways

[UKHistory]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/22/trumps-ugly-law-enforcement-crackdown-is-even-alienating-republicans/?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-c-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

The use of DHS personnel is damaging our democracy.

[bigsky]

All those who think federal troops should only be used when state or local govt requests them raise your hand...

[Doc]

Is a subscription site and you couldn't get me to pay for something I can get for free with a bucket out of a port-a-potty

However even the lowly people of Seattle and Portland have the right to protection, and if the city won't do it, and the state won't do it then it falls under the federal government to do it. Funny how the left had no issues when the last administration stepped in with Ferguson, etc.... but Trump does and suddenly it is an issue.
Add that they waited until there was vandalism of a federal building.

I wonder if there was a mob attacking your office and the Washington DC cops were told to ignore it and do nothing while windows were broken and the building trashed, if you will feel the same. For some reason I doubt it.

[dan_bgblue]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/22/trumps-ugly-law-enforcement-crackdown-is-even-alienating-republicans/?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-c-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

The use of DHS personnel is damaging our democracy.

The President is constitutionally bound to enforce the law and the FBI, DHS, ICE, NPS, Secret Service, are just part of the group of Federal law enforcement agencies the President commands to enforce the law. He is under no obligation to accede to opinions of state or local officials when deciding how and when to take action to enforce the laws of the nation. He definitely does not have to wait for those officials to plead for his help before stepping in to enforce the law.

[kingcat]

All those who think federal troops should only be used when state or local govt requests them raise your hand...

A slippery slope..

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/b1/1f/8d/b11f8d4b188241837ca0cb1104cf9cf4--hand-emoji-emoji-people.jpg

[Doc]

Democrats didnt have an issue with the feds coming in in the 60's for civil rights. Dems didn't have an issue with WACO, or Elian Gonzolez when a democrat called in the feds, and those were not widespread violence. No issue with their actions in Ferguson.


See, the real reason for the opposition is clear. It is not over reach or slippery slope. It is because it is an action by this President. Fauxscuses don't hold after 3 1/2 years of the left objecting to everything he does.

[UKHistory]

Democrats didnt have an issue with the feds coming in in the 60's for civil rights. Dems didn't have an issue with WACO, or Elian Gonzolez when a democrat called in the feds, and those were not widespread violence. No issue with their actions in Ferguson.


See, the real reason for the opposition is clear. It is not over reach or slippery slope. It is because it is an action by this President. Fauxscuses don't hold after 3 1/2 years of the left objecting to everything he does.

I did. And still do. This problem of Federal troops being used in Unconstitutional ways didn't begin and won't end with Trump. But he has a flare for authoritarianism.

I have no issue with DHS securing government buildings. This includes entrances, side walks, key streets including exit/entrance ramps to high ways. I have needed their assistance in fact more than once over the past couple of years.

What I have a concern is with DHS roving through a community in unmarked vehicles dressed as soldiers instead of law enforcement arresting people under dubious circumstances.

The mission creep of DHS under a different administration would be condemned by most of us on this board.

[kingcat]

I am against it. Unless the State leadership agrees with or requests such use. And any such action must be authorized by Congress, regardless.

And some Dems did have an issue with WACO.

Consistency is a two way street by the way. Too much "they", "them", "we" and "us" being used of late by citizens of the United States.

[CitizenBBN]

A slippery slope..

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/b1/1f/8d/b11f8d4b188241837ca0cb1104cf9cf4--hand-emoji-emoji-people.jpg

So if the south goes back to Jim Crow you're all good with it?

[kingcat]

I am against it. Unless the State leadership agrees with or request such use. And any use must be authorized by Congress, regardless.

Regardless, I am a bit surprised at the lack of consistency from those who I thought were strong advocates for State rights.

[CitizenBBN]

I am against it. Unless the State leadership agrees with or request such use. And any use must be authorized by Congress, regardless.

Where were you when George Wallace needed the backup? lol

There's simply no historical support for the position.

[UKHistory]

So if the south goes back to Jim Crow you're all good with it?

Would this administration or someone like Trump use law enforcement to protect the rights of citizens? There are questions of jurisdiction. How and when to use Federal forces. Tom Ridge, who lead DHS, has concerns.

[kingcat]

Where were you when George Wallace needed the backup? lol

There's simply no historical support for the position.

I actually read about it all after the fact. I was likely at the bowling ally/pool hall.

I do draw a line somewhere down the middle. I would have supported Nixon ordering troops to withstand the national guard actions during the Kent State massacre, instead of taking the “bums blowing up campuses.” viewpoint.

[UKHistory]

It is about mission creep. ICE and CBP have specific missions. Protect federal buildings. But once the tactics go beyond that mission, there is a concern.

A military style camo fatigues is not nor should it be a duty uniform of law enforcement on the street.

That is just dangerous.

There is a great distinction between looting and peacefully demonstrating. There is a big difference between peaceful assembly and destruction of public or private property.

There is also a big difference in enforcing the law under the Constitution and using Federal law enforcement to deny US citizens due process under the law. It sounds as if DHS personnel are doing just that.

[catmanjack]

But doesn’t state law fall under federal law?

[kingcat]

A federal law applies to the nation as a whole and to all the states whereas state laws are only in effect within that particular state.

If a state law gives people more rights than a federal law, the state law is legally supposed to prevail.

Subsequently, state law cannot legislate taking away civil rights afforded all Americans.

Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.


The tenth amendment addresses this. It's clear unless one chooses to subvert it's meaning due to complexity. So the Supreme Court has been called upon often tp clarify its meaning for us.

Conservatives have most often pointed to the Tenth Amendment as a means of arguing in favour of restrictions on federal authority.

Until now it seems.

[dan_bgblue]

And Article 2 Section 3 discusses the responsibilities of the President to enforce the laws of the nation

[Doc]

And Article 2 Section 3 discusses the responsibilities of the President to enforce the laws of the nation

Yes. And when states fail, he or she has the authority. 2 months down the line and still vandalizing buildings. That is a failure to protect all the people. We fought a war over states rights vs federal government. The big guys won.

[KeithKSR]

Would this administration or someone like Trump use law enforcement to protect the rights of citizens? There are questions of jurisdiction. How and when to use Federal forces. Tom Ridge, who lead DHS, has concerns.

You mean like the rights of children to not be shot? The rights of business people to not have their businesses looted and burned?

There is no right to loot, deface and destroy.

[KeithKSR]

It is about mission creep. ICE and CBP have specific missions. Protect federal buildings. But once the tactics go beyond that mission, there is a concern.

A military style camo fatigues is not nor should it be a duty uniform of law enforcement on the street.

That is just dangerous.

There is a great distinction between looting and peacefully demonstrating. There is a big difference between peaceful assembly and destruction of public or private property.

There is also a big difference in enforcing the law under the Constitution and using Federal law enforcement to deny US citizens due process under the law. It sounds as if DHS personnel are doing just that.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/21/portland-riots-read-out-july-21

[bigsky]

Citizen stepped in. George Wallace says “Hi”. Waco and Ruby Ridge were out of control ATF enforcing fed firearms laws, terrible. Obama sent Feds after state legal marijuana growers. There are plenty of examples.

[blueboss]

If my neighborhood is under siege and state and local authorities can’t clean it up... send in the feds, get it done, clean it up.

The argument that sending in the feds makes the situation worse... the only people that think it’s worse are the ones involved in the crime and violence. The mayors the governors that are saying federal authority makes it worse, then I suggest they drag their butts out on the streets every night/day and clean it up themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kingcat]

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/federal-officers-hit-navy-veteran-with-baton-pepper-spray-and-tear-gassed-a-county-commissioner/283-54f9c138-40ec-410c-8077-7a17f686a6f6

[UKHistory]

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/protests/federal-officers-hit-navy-veteran-with-baton-pepper-spray-and-tear-gassed-a-county-commissioner/283-54f9c138-40ec-410c-8077-7a17f686a6f6

Roaring into the wind. Trump could order their mother's shot and they would find a way to support the decision.

[catmanjack]

I am going to be very clear with my view you can hate on Trump everyday but do not vote for Biden and that direction that is truly going to lead this country into a civil war!
There is way more going on then is on the surface.

[CitizenBBN]

Roaring into the wind. Trump could order their mother's shot and they would find a way to support the decision.

And those who hate Trump would find fault if he cured coronavirus and cancer in the same pill.

When Obama sent the ATF to Waco, or had them sell guns to the Mexican cartels through Arizona gun shops, where was the outrage at "the feds"?

The simple historical truth is that the Federal government has had to step into these issues since there was a federal government. The Whiskey Rebellion is the first example of a POTUS having to use Federal forces to enforce the laws. Posse Comitatus was passed b/c in the South during Reconstruction federal authorities couldn't get state and local law enforcement support so they used federal troops when stationed in the area.

The ATF, DHS, ICE, FBI, and a host of others exist for the whole purpose of going into the states to enforce various laws. The FBI has long been involved in things like church burnings and such for fear local authorities may not act with a real desire to solve the crime and protect minority communities.

If this was Obama sending in troops to ferret out a KKK cell that was causing violence in some community the media would be having a mass orgasm over his leadership. If it's Trump sending them to deal with anarchists and Antifa it's tyranny.

I don't like Trump, but this double standard by which he is judged is doing more harm to the nation than anything he has done.

[KeithKSR]

I don't like Trump, but this double standard by which he is judged is doing more harm to the nation than anything he has done.

These mayors and governors would prefer to see their cities destroyed rather than ask Trump for help to quell the violence.

[kingcat]

Roaring into the wind. Trump could order their mother's shot and they would find a way to support the decision.

It's gone too far to many to return. Like going all in on a bluff.

Sadly, there is historical precedent for it.

[LakeCat]

It is interesting to see where one lives and their views. Our "Beltway" ie. Fall Creek and Arlington address posters are totally in line with the Washington Post and CNN media views while us Kentucky and Florida folks are very much more to the right. All I can say, after 71 years in our country, the trend towards anarchy disgusts me in ways it is difficult to express. I think of my Air Force buddies that perished in Viet Nam at the age of 24 and all the military sacrifices through the years and then watch a bunch of punks tear down our country based on some demented view of fariness.

[kingcat]

No offense intended but..

Some would say those men, of whom many were and are my friends and acquaintances, went to fight against such things. And if the insignia of their respective branches of service were displayed would automatically be given every amount of respect they truly deserve. I believe the fact is, those type patriots could not in good conscience be ordered to carry out such an order against the citizens of this country. Some of which are common folk and former military themselves..
But no such insignia is present, no vehicles or equipment marked, and no such rules and rights afforded citizens by the constitution, nor the military's sworn allegiance to protect it.
And most are peaceful protesters exercising their rights under the constitution as has been required and heralded as necessary since the establishment of our country. A right that in large defines liberty and freedoms those in service to the nation are sworn to protect.

The link above serves as one example of a proud military man suffering at the hands of this group. One who wore his insignia with dignity and was brutalized by one who could not wear his allegiance on his sleeve.

A group I'd say is not sworn to the constitution, but in fact employ the same tactics and guidelines used against foreign adversaries in a time of war.

[Doc]

Roaring into the wind. Trump could order their mother's shot and they would find a way to support the decision.

If my mother was trying to torch or vandalize a federal building, or beat on innocent people, or hurling rocks at police officers, or destroying public property....you are 100% correct. I would support Trump in that, just like I would had it occurred under BHO, GHWB, GB or Bill Clinton. But then I doubt my mother would ever do that, or set up an autonious zone. Of course she was known to occasionally beat on children but then I deserved that too

[KeithKSR]

No offense intended but..

Some would say those men, of whom many were and are my friends and acquaintances, went to fight against such things. And if the insignia of their respective branches of service were displayed would automatically be given every amount of respect they truly deserve. I believe the fact is, those type patriots could not in good conscience be ordered to carry out such an order against the citizens of this country. Some of which are common folk and former military themselves..
But no such insignia is present, no vehicles or equipment marked, and no such rules and rights afforded citizens by the constitution, nor the military's sworn allegiance to protect it.
And most are peaceful protesters exercising their rights under the constitution as has been required and heralded as necessary since the establishment of our country. A right that in large defines liberty and freedoms those in service to the nation are sworn to protect.

The link above serves as one example of a proud military man suffering at the hands of this group. One who wore his insignia with dignity and was brutalized by one who could not wear his allegiance on his sleeve.

A group I'd say is not sworn to the constitution, but in fact employ the same tactics and guidelines used against foreign adversaries in a time of war.

Ironically, there was no video or any photographs of the alleged event, while video of the rioters damaging a federal courthouse is plentiful.

[kingcat]

I'd call it "A group of wannabe stormtrumpers confronting a proud U.S. military man" No contest imho.
Opened hearts and minds can't hide from the statement it makes.

Video of the event from the site I linked.
https://twitter.com/PDXzane/status/1284726088187310080

[Doc]

I'd call it "A group of wannabe stormtrumpers confronting a proud U.S. military man" No contest imho.
Opened hearts and minds can't hide from the statement it makes.

Video of the event from the site I linked.
https://twitter.com/PDXzane/status/1284726088187310080

What happened prior to that? All this shows is a reaction by the police. What instigated it? Was he one of those breaking windows of the federal building.....or is that not possible because he is wearing a Navy sweatshirt? I ask because I do not know

[Doc]

Way I see it,just consider these federal agents are "peaceful protestors". Then their actions are justifable.

[KeithKSR]

I'd call it "A group of wannabe stormtrumpers confronting a proud U.S. military man" No contest imho.
Opened hearts and minds can't hide from the statement it makes.

Video of the event from the site I linked.
https://twitter.com/PDXzane/status/1284726088187310080

Was that a rubber baton? The guy walked away uninjured.

[KeithKSR]

Looks like the Portland police declared the “peaceful protests” to be riots.

[Doc]

This is prior to the feds arrival

https://www.facebook.com/201956993160690/posts/3452226951466995/?d=null&vh=e

The building covered in graffiti is a federal building, one I helped pay for. It is not a city or state build but a federal one that is being vandalized and set on fire. City officials have been doing nofhing to protect it or the people around it. The federal agents did not escalate anything. They identidied the aggitators, and in some cases allowed them to exit the area before arresting (in an effort to minimize escalation as well maximozing their safety). Federal agent would not be needed had anarchy not gone unaddressed for 2 months

[catmanjack]

The actions of the officer tell a different story like something was said or the guy did something to provoke the actions.

[kingcat]

The actions of the officer tell a different story like something was said or the guy did something to provoke the actions.

No it does not tell the story at all. There may or may not be more of a story than what we witness in the video, but to say you actually see it proves the point.

Some seem to not care regardless. And don't even respect the soldier and his views enough to read his story.

Now, I understand and respect the opinions of everyone here. I also understand we often differ from each other. Yet, I agree with dealing with criminals who take occasion during times like this to vent in criminal ways.

But if it's going to be done, let it be a badged member of law enforcement or branch of the military that confronts its citizens. Not unidentifiable, masked agents with free reign of the streets by order of the White House and politically targeted.
Americans must see the danger in that.

And that's all I can really say on the matter...except, GO CATS!

[catmanjack]

I see more danger in the riots and out of control cities like Portland and Seattle not to mention the BLM.
There is a reason a county in Oregon wants out and does not agree with the riots and liberals.

[catmanjack]

Be a true American and stop trying to tear the country apart.

[kingcat]

At some point we have to stop lumping everyone into one kettle. Organized active protest and unrest is as American as apple pie.

We must allow the states to remain the predominant power in policing its citizens within their borders as the constitution calls for. Or we are in effect calling for the eventual downfall of America, imo. Maybe not at this moment, and maybe not of this administration..but at some point in the future. Perhaps a Democrat led administration, who knows.

It happened in nazi germany...and it can happen again if Americans continue to hate each other for entertainment. And support any measures by the government to further that cause.
Because in reality, it is a game complete with rivalries and the same nonsense found in sports. Even televised with its own version of the Vitales, Walton's and Bilas'es catering to the emotions of the home crowd.

Hopefully it all blows over and common sense prevails. That's still an option.

[Doc]

What the federal officers are there for is not "organized ptotests". Barricading and torching buildings is not a protest, it is a crime. Enforcing the law is as American as pie. I seem to recall the slogan "Nobody is above the law" being thrown around whole lot recently. Or does that not apply to everybody? Defacing property is against the law. They were not rounding up protesters. They were rounding up crimminals.

PS these were not " unmarked, masked agents". Each and every one had their department marked on their clothing. As for masked, that is antifa garb. The officers wore protective helments, as they should considering the typical response to any LEO by the unlawful rioting crowd is to hurl rocks, bottle, fireworks, etc

[kingcat]

Unless your view is that anyone involved in the protests are criminals, that is incorrect.

Antifa??
My reference to masks was related to the video. And certainly they needed to wear masks while they were jumping to pepper spray the navy veteran in the face point blank. According the him and other reports by legal observers and local journalists they did not wear any dept. or branch insignia.

The fact is, they were taking people off the street, without charges, and interrogating them. Some were let go without release paperwork.

"Heightening tensions during the protest is the presence of federal law enforcement agents. Video shared on social media from last week showed what appear to be federal officers in unmarked cars arresting people without explanation, prompting outcry and lawsuits"


The protesters were grouped all together as "violent anarchists" from the outset..

"The presence of federal authorities in the city has ramped up ever since, and acting Homeland Security Secretary Chad Wolf last Thursday during a visit to the city called the demonstrators "violent anarchists."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/07/20/portland-protests-federal-agents-unmarked-cars-and-walls-moms/5470780002/
---------------------------------------------
On Friday, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of Oregon filed a lawsuit against DHS and the U.S. Marshals Service over tactics used by agents against peaceful protesters such as the use of tear gas, rubber bullets and acoustic weapons.

The suit was filed on behalf of legal observers and local journalists...

...Federal officers have charged at least 13 people with crimes related to the protests so far, Oregon Public Broadcasting reported Thursday. Some have been detained by the federal courthouse, which has been the scene of protests.
But others were reportedly grabbed blocks away....Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dhs-pushes-back-against-claim-federal-agents-detaining-portland-protesters-arent-identifying-themselves)

That's thirteen potential criminals which required such action.

The good news is, I believe they have withdrawn.

---------------------------------------------------
Oregon Democratic Sen. Jeff Merkely said this morning if Wolf is coming to inflame the situation in Portland so the President can “look tough,” the acting DHS leader should leave.

“Federal forces shot an unarmed protester in the face,” Merkely said in a tweet. “These shadowy forces have been escalating, not preventing, violence.”

Oregon Gov. Kate Brown similarly called for federal law enforcement officers to leave Portland. She added, Wolf is on a “mission to provoke confrontation for political purposes.”

“This political theater from President Trump has nothing to do with public safety,” Brown said in a statement. “The President is failing to lead this nation. Now he is deploying federal officers to patrol the streets of Portland in a blatant abuse of power by the federal government.”


Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets (https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/)

But we will all believe what best suits our opinions I guess. All facts are mitigated to mean little anymore..
Maybe I'm no different.

[catmanjack]

What’s being reported currently has shown to lack facts.

[VirginiaCat]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/22/trumps-ugly-law-enforcement-crackdown-is-even-alienating-republicans/?hpid=hp_save-opinions-float-right-4-0_opinion-card-c-right%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

The use of DHS personnel is damaging our democracy.

This is so misguided position it is not even funny.

When a locality or state refused to enforec their own laws and that action is endangering the safety of US Citizens and/or their property is it encumbent upon the Federal government to step in and enforce the law of the land and to remove the governments not holding up their civic duty.

[KeithKSR]

Kingcat, you really need to see the videos of what is really going on there if you think there are only 13 people who deserve to be arrested in Portland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7vlKbR3Gcs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kt5ALeWv4U

Here is a video interview of a police officer from a few weeks ago discuss how the situation has devolved from some protesters with a legit complaint to looters and white kids causing trouble. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha-7SETmJD4

[kingcat]

Keith, I have no doubt there were quite a few and no wish to defend criminals. I would hope those from a few weeks ago involved in this stuff were among the thirteen plus now charged.
And would highly commend the capable police departments for doing so.

Thing is, what is really going on there is best described by state government, local observers, and journalists. And the peaceful protesters themselves.

My point has been we really need to see the things I have stated are going on there too. And you can justify similar sweeping actions against protests which happen in authoritarian countries too.

That's the whole point, all the baby's with the bath water and such.

(edit)
I would also like to add that lessening the requirement for any administrations federal intervention in a state's business, against that state's wishes and usurping policing power over that state, may be the downfall of democracy in an election year one day.

And an extremely sad day that would be. This is a critical situation that every citizen must weigh in their mind, without political influence.
And the political climate is such that it requires much thought from every perspective.
Right or wrong, I assure everyone, I am trying my best to look at it from the proper perspective. Yet I keep coming up with the same opinion.

[KeithKSR]

Kingcat, if you think that the federal government has no business interfering in the state’s business you need to take a good course in US history. The history of federal law enforcement officers intervening in local riots dates back to George Washington.

[dan_bgblue]

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/protests-chicago-portland-andrew-mccarthy

[KeithKSR]

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/protests-chicago-portland-andrew-mccarthy

People seem to be confusing US military needing state or city cooperation and the legislated duties of DHS. They also conveniently forget that the President is the chief law enforcement officer in the nation.

[Doc]

People seem to be confusing US military needing state or city cooperation and the legislated duties of DHS. They also conveniently forget that the President is the chief law enforcement officer in the nation.

Forgetting and ignoring are not the same thing. You can bet they did not "forget" when Obama was using federal agencies in Ferguson.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-sends-100-agents-ferguson-ahead-grand-jury/story?id=27084669

https://www.vox.com/2014/8/16/6024539/federal-investigation-begins-40-fbi-agents-arrive-in-ferguson-michael-brown

[kingcat]

Forgetting and ignoring are not the same thing. You can bet they did not "forget" when Obama was using federal agencies in Ferguson.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-sends-100-agents-ferguson-ahead-grand-jury/story?id=27084669

https://www.vox.com/2014/8/16/6024539/federal-investigation-begins-40-fbi-agents-arrive-in-ferguson-michael-brown

If I am not mistaken the governor had declared a state of emergency and activated the Missouri National Guard. And the dispatched FBI personnel worked under the umbrella, or at least alongside the States Emergency Operations Center.

I am a bit surprised you supported this and the Waco thing.

[Doc]

If I am not mistaken the governor had declared a state of emergency and activated the Missouri National Guard. And the dispatched FBI personnel worked under the umbrella, or at least alongside the States Emergency Operations Center.

I am a bit surprised you supported this and the Waco thing.

I support law and order. I do not support the burning or vandalizing of public or other peoples private property. WACO was neither. (I did not support agents in Waco...however I don't beat up Clinton for doing it). As for Ferguson, government intervention was needed. Unfortunaely Obama used it to further the racism agenda rather than quell violence regardless of political stance (and while I disagree with HOW he used them--to advance his personal view rather than stop the violence. He imported Eric Holder to deal with it in manner that served the political agenda, I don't disagree with using them... and won't beat him up for doing so). But more importantly is rhe hypocrisy of the left. Federal agents intervening is fine when Obama or Clinton was president but now it is Trumps personal militia

[KeithKSR]

If I am not mistaken the governor had declared a state of emergency and activated the Missouri National Guard. And the dispatched FBI personnel worked under the umbrella, or at least alongside the States Emergency Operations Center.

I am a bit surprised you supported this and the Waco thing.

Utilizing federal law enforcement officers doesn’t require a declaration, but then you seem to be all for rioters and Antifa attempting to set fire to a federal courthouse with federal LEOs inside, which is attempted murder.

[KeithKSR]

I support law and order. I do not support the burning or vandalizing of public or other peoples private property. WACO was neither. (I did not support agents in Waco...however I don't beat up Clinton for doing it). As for Ferguson, government intervention was needed. Unfortunaely Obama used it to further the racism agenda rather than quell violence regardless of political stance (and while I disagree with HOW he used them--to advance his personal view rather than stop the violence. He imported Eric Holder to deal with it in manner that served the political agenda, I don't disagree with using them... and won't beat him up for doing so). But more importantly is rhe hypocrisy of the left. Federal agents intervening is fine when Obama or Clinton was president but now it is Trumps personal militia

Waco and Ruby Ridge were examples of the government invading private property. In this case you have a bunch of mostly white upper middle class rioters bent on destruction of public property.

[Doc]

Waco and Ruby Ridge were examples of the government invading private property. In this case you have a bunch of mostly white upper middle class rioters bent on destruction of public property.

Yes, which is why I was not in support of going into Waco, but I am not going to bash Clinton for doing so. He did what he thought was correct as president. Even though it was not a decision I agree with, I can see why he did what he did. Too bad the left only sees one thing... it was Trumps decision hence it must be racist, divisive or something to enhance his power.

[Doc]

Utilizing federal law enforcement officers doesn’t require a declaration, but then you seem to be all for rioters and Antifa attempting to set fire to a federal courthouse with federal LEOs inside, which is attempted murder.

It should be noted that these were the individuals that the Federal Agents were tasked with arresting, not the peaceful protestors. Dave needs to watch the video you linked where the agents go after the ones barring the door and swinging hammers, while the agents ignored the nonviolent, nonvandalizing peaceful protesters. He wants to lump the peaceful ones with the agitators. It was the later group that the DHS, etc were targeting, and according to the video the ones they interacted with. The peaceful ones were left along. The democratic mayor and governor, and the media can say what they want but the video shows something different. Me, I believe my eyes, not what a bias media or somebody who has an agenda against the action.

[catmanjack]

I don’t think the black militant should be allowed in the city of Louisville to protest.
Think the federal government troops should be in the city also to break them up.

[VirginiaCat]

People seem to be confusing US military needing state or city cooperation and the legislated duties of DHS. They also conveniently forget that the President is the chief law enforcement officer in the nation.

They have also forgotten a service line called the US Marshalls...

[VirginiaCat]

I don’t think the black militant should be allowed in the city of Louisville to protest.
Think the federal government troops should be in the city also to break them up.

They have a right to be there. Especially if they have a permit. It is the lawlessness and violence and property destruction that DEMANDS local and state authorities enforce the law and make arrests. Whey they do not, it is the obligation of Federal law enforcement to do so.

[catmanjack]

No I understand they have a right but if Oregon does not think the feds should be allowed I dot think the terror groups should be allowed.

[VirginiaCat]

No I understand they have a right but if Oregon does not think the feds should be allowed I dot think the terror groups should be allowed.


Agree

[CitizenBBN]

Well another bunch of peaceful protestors moved to Eugene where they launched fireworks at a federal courthouse, broke windows, destroyed signs, etc.

These groups are being funded. I just about guarantee from Soros or some other outside source.

[Doc]

Cracks me up that the DHS agents are "anonymous, masked, and unidentifiable" despite them being patched with "DSH" on their uniforms. And they are arresting people dressed like this who are throwing bricks, rocks and frozen bottles at people while vandalizing property

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/05/31/multimedia/31xp-antifa-pix1/merlin_159394380_8ef29e27-ed5f-4b5a-b061-290b09989d59-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

[catmanjack]

Looking at that group what value to they add to society? You think any of them are hard working?

[CitizenBBN]

Looking at that group what value to they add to society? You think any of them are hard working?

Spoiled white upper middle class kids who wouldn't know which end of a shovel to hold. out there screaming about the oppressed as if they even know what that means.

[dan_bgblue]

any of them are hard working?

Well none of them appear to be malnourished

[Basket Case]

I did. And still do. This problem of Federal troops being used in Unconstitutional ways didn't begin and won't end with Trump. But he has a flare for authoritarianism.

I have no issue with DHS securing government buildings. This includes entrances, side walks, key streets including exit/entrance ramps to high ways. I have needed their assistance in fact more than once over the past couple of years.

What I have a concern is with DHS roving through a community in unmarked vehicles dressed as soldiers instead of law enforcement arresting people under dubious circumstances.

The mission creep of DHS under a different administration would be condemned by most of us on this board.

I'm late to the party, but I agree with this whole post. We do not need federal police. It's a travesty that there are a lot of innocent people that get caught up in a complete lack of law and order, but that is a local issue and they should demand better from their elected officials. Where will the bar be set to allow the feds to swarm a locale?


With that being said, why does the does the author write (in the initial link) "Under fire for dispatching federal law enforcement into cities in defiance of local leaders, in part to create TV imagery that sends an authoritarian thrill up President Trump’s leg"? Why can't these issues get debated on their merit rather than inject this pathetic language that assumes the other side just has an authoritarian desire? It's easy for me to see the rationale for those to restore law and order with the use of federal troops, I just do not believe the feds should usurp the states here.

[catmanjack]

When your state/city is being run by children and placing innocent people in danger the Feds do most certainly need to be involved and should be.

[Basket Case]

When your state/city is being run by children and placing innocent people in danger the Feds do most certainly need to be involved and should be.

I completely agree with your premise that these cities are extremely poorly run. Those are the officials the people chose for themselves. The issue is not that the police force is overwhelmed and they asked for help, the issue is that the people that were duly elected, have decided to stand down. I think it is moronic, but the people have spoken and that is what they want. Why do you think any individual has the authority to nullify this?

[CitizenBBN]

Why do you think any individual has the authority to nullify this?

For the same reason the Federal authority could nullify George Wallace standing in the schoolhouse door.

As history knows, he and I agree on the issues with the militarization of the police. I disagree completely in the military giving up-armored Humvees and other assault equipment free to county police forces, and I disagree with the whole mentality that has separated police from communities.

That being said, the people creating the issues in this case are not the "community". They are looking to do harm and cause damage and when that happens it's time to not mess around, put on the riot gear and shut it down.

Also, I agree the feds should not step in often or unless absolutely necessary, but every single American has basic rights and when the local authorities refuse to protect them then there is no choice.

In the Civil Rights Movement that required federal intervention to protect minorities. If one accepts it may be necessary to do so to protect Constitutional rights, then we can't pick and choose which rights, and surely the rights of life and property are in there somewhere.

that shop owner or citizen may not have voted for those fools, and even if they did they don't then get to be abandoned under the law.

And I do NOT like that option, to be clear. I'm a big Federalist, but if state and local authorities refuse to protect our basic rights then surely we can appeal to the last level of our government.

[KeithKSR]

What’s really going on in Portland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38PkqmYyNP8

[KeithKSR]

This guy is a Portland native, and lives nearby. He has a lot of friends there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-nCV7P7FK8

[kingcat]

Has there also possibly been a covert effort here to sow unrest? First hand experience tells me that members of these groups seldom, if ever, do anything like this without an organizational blessing or agenda.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minneapolis-police-link-umbrella-man-to-white-supremacy-group/ar-BB17iypz?ocid=msedgdhp

[CitizenBBN]

Sure, you probably have white supremacists in this too, along with Antifa, Soros, BLM, and a host of others. They're a tiny percentage bc, by any estimate, they are a very small group of people in this country, and they lack any real funding or support, unlike those groups backed by Soros.

All have the same goal, which is chaos and forcing the second Civil War.

The solution is to stop pretending these are candlelight vigil protests and start arresting people who are out there causing violence. The right to peacefully assemble doesn't include throwing rocks, moltov cocktails and fireworks at anyone, busting out windows, looting, etc.

But if you think the participation of some right wing groups mean that left wing groups are somehow in the clear, that's mistaken. Clearly the vast majority of this is from left wing extremist groups and general anarchist groups. But none of that matters, what matters is supporting the rule of law and arresting these fools. These are not lawful or Constitutional protests of any sort, so stop them.

[kingcat]

I've defended neither. But I thought this deserved pointing out.

[KeithKSR]

Has there also possibly been a covert effort here to sow unrest? First hand experience tells me that members of these groups seldom, if ever, do anything like this without an organizational blessing or agenda.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minneapolis-police-link-umbrella-man-to-white-supremacy-group/ar-BB17iypz?ocid=msedgdhp

ANTIFA has turned BLM protests violent, and a lot of the black people don’t like it. ANTIFA is comprised primarily of white millennials. Soros spent millions getting his DAs elected to keep them out of jail.

There probably are a few far right activists involved, but the numbers appear quite low. Portland and Seattle are all left wing extremists.

https://www.city-journal.org/antifa-seattle-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone

[CitizenBBN]

These Antifa groups have come in on the heels of the Floyd death and BLM and at this point all but taken over the ground, at least out west. Every picture is full of 20-30 year old white kids screaming not about minority rights but about capitalism and social justice.

I'm sure it attracts all kinds of fringe people, from white supremacists to the crazy people who talk to themselves on street corners, but the vast majority clearly is an Antifa driven event.

[Catonahottinroof]

The bigger ruse in all of this is people making a racial issue out of the protestors....which are violent and which ones aren’t and labeling by race..a complete non-sequitur to the discussion.
Violence is violence regardless of who it is.