Gun question

[Doc]

For those in the know.......


We are considering purchasing a gun, be it a handgun or rifle, not sure which, for our Colorado home. It will be solely for protection which will likely come in the form of bears and other wildlife. Will not need a conceal permit as we have no intention of using it anywhere but at the home. I say we need nothing as far as permits or license, but wife thinks we do. I know CO has laws that prohibit gun registration but does the owner need a permit, etc. I assume there is a waiting period but that is no big deal. I looked on line and saw nothing that requires a license. I know we have gun retailers on this site so figured as good a source as any. As we get closer I will ask advice on which gun to get

[KeithKSR]

Colorado doesn’t have many restrictions. The laws are in a brief overview here: https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/csp/colorado-gun-laws

The CCW might be good to get just for the purpose of the training, or if there is a range nearby they should offer a class on firearm safety.

The what to get is the big question. A handgun is far handier if you plan to do any hiking in the great outdoors. A long gun of any type would add lots of weight and be slower to deploy. A gun to defend yourself from a bear attack is useless if you don’t have it with you.

Here is a pretty good article on recommendations from someone knowledgeable. If you currently live near a gun range you can often try before you buy and then get a discount if you choose to buy the handgun.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/bears-attack-top-sidearms-carry-bear-country/

[Doc]

Thanks....I was right for the fist time in 33 years

[CitizenBBN]

As Keith posted each state has their own laws, and I don't know Colorado's. Most states don't have waiting periods, registrations, etc. Lots of people even think we have them in Kentucky or nationally and that's not the case. Definitely just check the state official websites for those details.

As for what to get, for bear you obviously are looking a lot bigger than for basic home defense. Shoot a bear with too small a caliber and you just make him mad.

The problem with handgun/rifle is size, but also usability for larger rounds. Rifles can handle large enough rounds easily, and will have way less kick, but are big and bulky by comparison. Handguns are more portable, but firing a 44 Magnum or 45 Colt, etc. in a handgun is a lot of kick, which may be an issue for your wife.

Some say you can shoot solid .357 or similar at bear, but if you arent' placing your shots well I doubt that works. I wouldn't shoot less than a .44. Mag in a pistol.

Another big factor: barrel length. Short 2.5" barrels end up reducing the effective power of the round quite a bit. That's fine for shooting .45 Colt or .410 defense loads at a human, but not a bear. I'd go with a 6" barrel or close.

The problem is shooting that kind of pistol takes real practice, and is hard to handle for even grown men.

An alternative is a 12ga shotgun with shorter barrel (you can go down to 16") and maybe pistol grips. easy to carry at that length relatively, and 00 buck is a little more forgiving on targeting, b/c you know, having a grizzly running at you may be slightly unnerving. It will also give you 3 or more (depending on the laws) shots at it quickly.

Another alternative is a smaller rifle, and they do make a few that are good choices. Some are lever action which can be handy and easy to use for inexperienced shooters versus a bolt action. You can get a "coach" length gun that is still serviceable to carry and will give you several rounds, any number of which are powerful enough for bear.

If it were me I'd have a shotgun or coach or guide length rifle. I'm a pretty good shot with about any gun, but with a grizzly coming at me I'm betting I'm not nearly as good a shot, and a shotgun with 00 buck or a rifle either one will be easier to aim than a pistol.

In fact in that shotgun I'd probably load the first couple in 00 buck, the other in a slug. I figure if I get to shot 3 he's close and that slug in a 12g will do the job as well as anything.

In a rifle I'd go with a big round too btw. 300 win mag, 45-70 Government, something like that with really good knock down weight.

[Darrell KSR]

Good article here about bear attacks and defending them with pistols of varying ammunition. Although they show a 97% success rate, I'd be concerned about some of the ones they have here.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/

For my money, I'm carrying a shotgun and a pistol. If for some reason the bear gets on top of you, having a pistol on your side you can pull out and shoot can be kinda handy. Since I'd have a shotgun, I'd probably carry a smaller pistol than the ones CBBN recommends as a backup, for use in close "bear on top of me" type of action.

[MickintheHam]

Thanks....I was right for the fist time in 33 years

If your wife didn't concur, you are still wrong!

[dan_bgblue]

If I an going to be traipsing around in bear country, brown, kodiak, grizley, polar, varieties, then I am gonna be packing one of these, chambered for the .50 cal round. They work equally well on bull moose or bull elk. Rebid skunk, prairie dog, and beaver just disappear when impacted by this bullet.

Desert Eagle (https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/firearms/magnum-research-desert-eagle-50-ae-black.asp)

[KentuckyWildcat]

If I an going to be traipsing around in bear country, brown, kodiak, grizley, polar, varieties, then I am gonna be packing one of these, chambered for the .50 cal round. They work equally well on bull moose or bull elk. Rebid skunk, prairie dog, and beaver just disappear when impacted by this bullet.

Desert Eagle (https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/firearms/magnum-research-desert-eagle-50-ae-black.asp)

I was about to say the same thing! If I'm worried about something eating me, I'm going 50 cal lol

[CitizenBBN]

The Desert Eagle is a fine gun no doubt. It's a semi-auto which means more chances to hit the target, but it is a huge gun.

For 50 cal you can also go with the S&W 500. Really good gun.

For a semiauto that's probably powerful enough I might go nuts and get the 44 Automag. Very expensive b/c it's a collectible (I sold one for more than $4K and that was almost 10 years ago). It's the semi-auto Dirty Harry used in Sudden Impact.

If you're going for the gusto they actually make a revolver in 45-70 Government. I had to google to find the maker, it's a company in Minnesota, 10" barrel. Upon googling apparently they also chamber it in 45 colt and 454 Casull (my round of choice for this endeavor btw).

The Raging Hunter is in 454 Casull. So is a Ruger Redhawk model. I'd go with the Ruger. Can't go wrong with Ruger.

In googling around I've seen a few mention the 10mm round. It is a very powerful round, and you get a lot more shots with it, and a lot better control.

If I was going smaller I may want more than 5-6 rounds, in which case I go 10mm or maybe the 357 AMP, the semiauto version of the 357 magnum. If i had $5K to spend maybe I get the 44 Automag. But those are backup guns.

In the end I'm with Darrell. I have a 12 ga shotgun cut down to bare length or a coach length rifle, with a big but not massive handgun as backup.

If not a shotgun I'd go with the Marlin 1895. Here's the gun:
https://www.marlinfirearms.com/lever-action/model-1895-big-bore/model-1895-dark-series

5 shots, a little under 36" in length, lever action is easy to learn and shoot on target, shoots a 45-70 Govt. I think you can get a bead with that gun.

But I still get a higher capacity shotgun if it's legal.

[KentuckyWildcat]

The Desert Eagle is a fine gun no doubt. It's a semi-auto which means more chances to hit the target, but it is a huge gun.

A bear is a huge animal :)

[KentuckyWildcat]

In all seriousness, I wouldn't have just one. I'd have a bolt action rifle in the house. Caliber? Not sure, maybe the 7.62x39 Ruger? I just like the round, it should kill a bear, won't go for miles, and easy to find. I've learned this past week, the Hornady SST round really does explode.

Pistol to carry is a hard choice to me. Double stack auto with plenty of rounds? Or the dependability of a revolver? Not sure, though decision.

[KeithKSR]

Pistol to carry is a hard choice to me. Double stack auto with plenty of rounds? Or the dependability of a revolver? Not sure, though decision.

There is a lot of movement toward the 10mm round as an option in bear country. It is easier to shoot and provides a lot more rounds to throw at the bear.

https://www.petersenshunting.com/editorial/is-10mm-enough-gun-for-bear-defense/368366

A lot of hikers and people in the outdoors in bear country are using chest rig holsters, they are more accessible in a lot of instances than a belt holster.

[dan_bgblue]

https://gunbelts.com/blog/is-10mm-overrated/

[KentuckyWildcat]

My buddy just had to have a 10mm. He likes it, but he is more of a collector, not a hunter at all. Tried to get me to buy one, but I like the common rounds more. I really just have 7.62x39, 9mm, and 223. I have one 380 with 1 box of shells. It stays by the bed and I doubt I ever buy another box for it. I would like to add the 6.5 but if I do, I won't keep much of it laying around either.

[KeithKSR]

My buddy just had to have a 10mm. He likes it, but he is more of a collector, not a hunter at all. Tried to get me to buy one, but I like the common rounds more. I really just have 7.62x39, 9mm, and 223. I have one 380 with 1 box of shells. It stays by the bed and I doubt I ever buy another box for it. I would like to add the 6.5 but if I do, I won't keep much of it laying around either.

The 10mm is becoming more popular in bear territories because it affords the ease of use of a semiautomatic with enough stopping power to stop a bear, and gives you more rounds to stop that bear. The Glock 20 runs around $550 and gives you 15+1 capacity, vs $750+ for a brand name double action like the S&W 69, which only holds 5 rounds.

[Darrell KSR]

If I were drawing from a blank slate, I'd choose a 12 gauge pump shotgun with buckshot and slugs alternating and a Glock 20 as my backup. I'd check with Keith, Chuck, Dan and others about what would be a reliable shotgun that was reasonably priced (Mossberg? Remington?) and model and get it and feel very comfortable with my front line defense. For the reasons Keith suggested, I'd love the G20 as my backup. In real world scenarios, weapons "less" than you think have been highly successful in bear defenses, and I think that's plenty of firepower, especially given the number of rounds, as a backup.

In my pretend world if I had a need for it tomorrow, I'd still buy the shotgun as described, and just my own .45 ACP as my backup. I like the idea of having a weapon I am already very comfortable with shooting, that is reliable as heck, that affords me no difficulty with recoil. I'd have to carefully consider the precise ammunition to use with it, but as a backup, I'd be fine with it.

Oh--and get Keith's chest holster. That just makes too much sense.

[dan_bgblue]

The Glock 20 runs around $550 and gives you 15+1 capacity

The dimensions on the grip must be huge. The cartridges are pretty darn big and I think squeezing then into the grip side by side will make for a fat handle. jmho

[Darrell KSR]

The dimensions on the grip must be huge. The cartridges are pretty darn big and I think squeezing then into the grip side by side will make for a fat handle. jmho

You made me curious.

The G20, gen 4 is 1.34" wide at the grip.

https://eu.glock.com/en/products/pistols/g20-gen4

The G19 is 1.26".

https://eu.glock.com/en/products/pistols/g19

Is that 0.08" significant? Maybe. I think YMMV.

EDIT...better comparison to the .45 caliber G21 gen 4.

The G21 is 1.34", same as the G20.

https://eu.glock.com/en/products/pistols/g21-gen4

[dan_bgblue]

Thanks for doing the research. My imagination was way off.

[CitizenBBN]

Thanks for doing the research. My imagination was way off.

Men generally tend to overestimate on size and grip like that....

[Darrell KSR]

Men generally tend to overestimate on size and grip like that....I thought the grip was about 9 or 10 in.... Uhh, nevermind.

[BigBluePappy]

Men generally tend to overestimate on size and grip like that....

:sHa_clap2::sHa_clap2::sHa_clap2:
You win the internet for the day, sir.

[dan_bgblue]

Darrell, if we can leave the children out of the conversation a moment, are those numbers the dimensions from side to side or from front to back?

[Catfan73]

"bear on top of me" type of action.

I am disappointed in all of you for just letting this go.

[Darrell KSR]

Darrell, if we can leave the children out of the conversation a moment, are those numbers the dimensions from side to side or from front to back?

Width...as in, if the rounds are side by side in the magazine, the width used to accommodate that. Here's the pic (see # 3).

9401

[Darrell KSR]

I am disappointed in all of you for just letting this go.

Oh, man lol.

[BigBluePappy]

I am disappointed in all of you for just letting this go.

A Revenant kind of thing...

[KeithKSR]

Darrell, if we can leave the children out of the conversation a moment, are those numbers the dimensions from side to side or from front to back?

Grip dimensions are always side to side, people like to use that measurement to determine worthiness for CCW. The thicker the grip the more it is likely to “print.” The reason a lot of people like single stack weapons is because the grips are thinner and it is easier to conceal.

[CitizenBBN]

I am disappointed in all of you for just letting this go.

Hey I jumped in and have already been called a child. :) Not that it will dissuade me...

[bigsky]

My .44 Redhawk loaded with big bullets is a comforting backcountry gun. I have some reloads that make it go "SPRANG". I guess I could get one of those marlin big loop carbines in that caliber but I've been liking carrying my little hammerless Kimber in .357 for snakes and etc. So I guess I'll wait till the .357 shows up in the marlin too. Altho I could reload some softer .44 specials. It's a fine home self defense and short enough to hang out in the truck too.

As for gun laws, Sheesh I fill out the paper and they sell me the gun. I have avoided getting a medical marijuana card because they can show up in the search, or at least I've heard. Or I buy one from the paper or a friend or whatever. I am going to get my Arizona, etc concealed carry this year. We all need goals, especially retired people.

[KeithKSR]

My .44 Redhawk loaded with big bullets is a comforting backcountry gun. I have some reloads that make it go "SPRANG". I guess I could get one of those marlin big loop carbines in that caliber but I've been liking carrying my little hammerless Kimber in .357 for snakes and etc. So I guess I'll wait till the .357 shows up in the marlin too. Altho I could reload some softer .44 specials. It's a fine home self defense and short enough to hang out in the truck too.

As for gun laws, Sheesh I fill out the paper and they sell me the gun. I have avoided getting a medical marijuana card because they can show up in the search, or at least I've heard. Or I buy one from the paper or a friend or whatever. I am going to get my Arizona, etc concealed carry this year. We all need goals, especially retired people.


Marlin has an 1894 with an enlarged loop. The loop isn’t as big as some, but is larger than the originals. https://www.marlinfirearms.com/lever-action/model-1894/model-1894-csbl

Rossi sells one in an 1892 variant that has been somewhat of a tactical flair to it that has the big loop. https://rossiusa.com/firearms/lever-action-rifles/51-r92-357-mag-16-5-8-rounds-triple-black

Henry has their take on the big loop lever action .357 also. https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/henry-big-boy-steel/

[bigsky]

Yep Keith, you are right, Marlin is the one I want. I Get those 2 confused—Marlin/Savage. Henry steelie might be okay. People buy those Henrys on a lark and then never use them so maybe I find one used.

[Doc]

Now my wife wants to get a concealed carry permit. New job involves going after terrorists so might not be a bad idea.

[KeithKSR]

Yep Keith, you are right, Marlin is the one I want. I Get those 2 confused—Marlin/Savage. Henry steelie might be okay. People buy those Henrys on a lark and then never use them so maybe I find one used.

Here is a nice video on the Henry X in .357/.38. This one is running a suppressor, which is really sweet for cutting down on the noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5gjoDqThm8

[KeithKSR]

Now my wife wants to get a concealed carry permit. New job involves going after terrorists so might not be a bad idea.

Might not be a bad idea for both of you.

[CGWildcat]

OK, it's been too long for me to deal with guns unfortunately.

I want to get a pump 12 gauge, short barrel, pistol grip that handles 00 and/or slugs. Home defense type.

I have a sig (I think) 357 pistol, ruger 22, and 30.06 pump, plus a 12 gauge side by side double barrel (made in China), that I'd love to get rid of. Never even shot it.

[KeithKSR]

OK, it's been too long for me to deal with guns unfortunately.

I want to get a pump 12 gauge, short barrel, pistol grip that handles 00 and/or slugs. Home defense type.

I have a sig (I think) 357 pistol, ruger 22, and 30.06 pump, plus a 12 gauge side by side double barrel (made in China), that I'd love to get rid of. Never even shot it.

Mossberg and Remington both sell versions of what you are wanting, pistol grips with 14 inch barrels.

https://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590-shockwave/

https://www.remington.com/other-products/model-870-tac-14

I’ve had both Mossberg and Remington shotguns. The Mossbergs have a smoother action and the Remington’s can be prone to having ejector issues, so I’d go with Mossberg, but both are dependable.

[dan_bgblue]

Mossberg is the way to go for a pump action

[Darrell KSR]

Buddy of mine bought a Mossberg Shockwave some years ago. Took it out of the box this week.

I like the looks of it a lot. How is the recoil on something like that?

[dan_bgblue]

They make a low recoil version of the 12 gauge shell that wont kick the gun out of your hand. I have a friend that is one of those ultra proud macho guys and he bought one and he bought a case of 3" double aught buck shells to go with it. He still has all of those shells minus one.

[KeithKSR]

Buddy of mine bought a Mossberg Shockwave some years ago. Took it out of the box this week.

I like the looks of it a lot. How is the recoil on something like that?

Recoil is going to dependent a lot on what size load is being shot. If I were shooting it I’d probably avoid three inch shells.

[KeithKSR]

They make a low recoil version of the 12 gauge shell that wont kick the gun out of your hand. I have a friend that is one of those ultra proud macho guys and he bought one and he bought a case of 3" double aught buck shells to go with it. He still has all of those shells minus one.

The Mossberg’s are known to run the minishells very well. Here is an example: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2506162922

[Darrell KSR]

They make a low recoil version of the 12 gauge shell that wont kick the gun out of your hand. I have a friend that is one of those ultra proud macho guys and he bought one and he bought a case of 3" double aught buck shells to go with it. He still has all of those shells minus one.


Recoil is going to dependent a lot on what size load is being shot. If I were shooting it I’d probably avoid three inch shells.


The Mossberg’s are known to run the minishells very well. Here is an example: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2506162922

You know me; I'm not really a gun person. I have never heard of minishells. Sounds like a great idea for something like this, though. I'm going to relay that link to my buddy. He shoots probably less than I do and I doubt he knows what those are. Heck, maybe he does, and everybody does except me. Wouldn't be the first time I'd be out of the loop.

[Doc]

So we got serious today...went to a local gun shop/range and inquired. we are leaning towards a 9mm rather than a 22 cal as the way to go. They showed us a Glock and a Smith Wesson. I thought they were over priced (the glock 19 was $550 and the SW $580). No problem paying that if worth it but considering what our purpose is, we need something that goes BANG and scares people away. Looking on the net, one that intrigued me was this Keltec P17 (22 cal). Apparently it is so good that nobody can keep them in stock. However I saw one site that had "CO legal---NO", and we plan on having it in that state for our cabin.

There is a gun show this weekend here locally so we might go to that and see if anything floats our boat.

[dan_bgblue]

Hickock45 and our Darrell both like this Walther Creed 9mm. Much better price than you posted above.

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/walther-creed-9mm-luger-semi-auto-pistol-4-barrel-16-rounds-low-profile-3-dot-sights-polymer-frame-black-finish/FC-723364210655.html

I am still waiting for the Palmetto States Armory PSA9 to hit the market for $300.00

[Darrell KSR]

I'm not the guy to ask, since we have much better people here with worlds more knowledge, but you do not want a 22 if you want self protection.

In my view, a 9mm is the minimum. Glock 19 is one of the most popular hand guns in history.

Glocks are ugly, but they go bang when you pull the trigger. Unless it's an anomaly, every time. Mine has never failed to fire no matter the conditions or ammunition. That alone is worth the price to me. Unless you want a revolver. And yes, plenty of other companies are reliable, too. But some with good names and good workmanship won't necessarily be the most reliable. Buddy of mine has, literally, hundreds of guns. Former member of a state police type organization, and now a wealthy collector. He buys Sig Sauers and other big name weapons with 4 digit price tags and sends them back for work. Trigger replacement. Filing down of parts because it doesn't eject properly. (I'm not picking on Sig, just the first name that came to my mind).

On the caliber, 22s are great target pistols. They can kill. They can also not kill. They can also not slow a person down. No way, no how, do you want that for protection. Way too many stories of a 22 doing nothing more than making somebody mad.

When I had a real and substantial threat, I leaned on several people here for advice as well as CatintheFort (Andre) who all knew their stuff. Andre spent a lot of time with me, and I selected a 45 caliber that I could carry. You'll get different opinions on caliber, but I really don't think you will see much support for a defense weapon with a caliber below 9mm or 38 maybe.

If you have a chance, go to a place like Hoover Tactical here in Birmingham (they aren't rare) with an indoor shooting range, and rent a pistol from them in the caliber and model you are considering, and shoot it. Hoover Tactical rents pistols for $10. Great way to see if the pistol fits your hand, if the recoil on it is bad, or manageable, etc. My 45 seemed like a large caliber and recoil concerned me until I shot it. It was more of a rocking back and forth recoil that didn't disturb follow up shots, rather than a recoil with a muzzle flip where you'd have to find the target again on a 2nd shot.

Anyway, hopefully others will chime in. But my $0.02 is buy a 9mm, not a 22. Or buy both, but don't carry the 22 for self defense.

[Darrell KSR]

Hickock45 and our Darrell both like this Walther Creed 9mm. Much better price than you posted above.

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/walther-creed-9mm-luger-semi-auto-pistol-4-barrel-16-rounds-low-profile-3-dot-sights-polymer-frame-black-finish/FC-723364210655.html

I am still waiting for the Palmetto States Armory PSA9 to hit the market for $300.00I started to mention my Walther Creed. CDDN now has it for $299, but it recently was $269.99 and may go back to that price. Very reliable. Uglier than my Glock (ok, they both are ugly), but shoots well, very accurate.

I wouldn't hesitate to use it for self defense. In fact, I carry it occasionally with two extra mags (both provided) if I feel like it's a weird situation where I may need near 50 shots. (16+1, and two 16-round mags).

[Darrell KSR]

Hickock45 and our Darrell both like this Walther Creed 9mm. Much better price than you posted above.

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/walther-creed-9mm-luger-semi-auto-pistol-4-barrel-16-rounds-low-profile-3-dot-sights-polymer-frame-black-finish/FC-723364210655.html

I am still waiting for the Palmetto States Armory PSA9 to hit the market for $300.00That Palmetto looks very nice.

[dan_bgblue]

A side note to Darrell's comments above, which I wholly agree with, is if you just want something to go bang, get a disposable lighter and some firecrackers.

[Doc]

I'm not the guy to ask, since we have much better people here with worlds more knowledge, but you do not want a 22 if you want self protection.

In my view, a 9mm is the minimum. Glock 19 is one of the most popular hand guns in history.

Glocks are ugly, but they go bang when you pull the trigger. Unless it's an anomaly, every time. Mine has never failed to fire no matter the conditions or ammunition. That alone is worth the price to me. Unless you want a revolver. And yes, plenty of other companies are reliable, too. But some with good names and good workmanship won't necessarily be the most reliable. Buddy of mine has, literally, hundreds of guns. Former member of a state police type organization, and now a wealthy collector. He buys Sig Sauers and other big name weapons with 4 digit price tags and sends them back for work. Trigger replacement. Filing down of parts because it doesn't eject properly. (I'm not picking on Sig, just the first name that came to my mind).

On the caliber, 22s are great target pistols. They can kill. They can also not kill. They can also not slow a person down. No way, no how, do you want that for protection. Way too many stories of a 22 doing nothing more than making somebody mad.

When I had a real and substantial threat, I leaned on several people here for advice as well as CatintheFort (Andre) who all knew their stuff. Andre spent a lot of time with me, and I selected a 45 caliber that I could carry. You'll get different opinions on caliber, but I really don't think you will see much support for a defense weapon with a caliber below 9mm or 38 maybe.

If you have a chance, go to a place like Hoover Tactical here in Birmingham (they aren't rare) with an indoor shooting range, and rent a pistol from them in the caliber and model you are considering, and shoot it. Hoover Tactical rents pistols for $10. Great way to see if the pistol fits your hand, if the recoil on it is bad, or manageable, etc. My 45 seemed like a large caliber and recoil concerned me until I shot it. It was more of a rocking back and forth recoil that didn't disturb follow up shots, rather than a recoil with a muzzle flip where you'd have to find the target again on a 2nd shot.

Anyway, hopefully others will chime in. But my $0.02 is buy a 9mm, not a 22. Or buy both, but don't carry the 22 for self defense.

I texted my son in law who is a police officer. He agreed, 22 is for killing varmints. 9 mm might not kill a bear but hope it would scare it away. One question for Chuck... I assume any purchased on the internet has to go to a FFL (fed lisc dealer). I assume the dealer also takes a cut, but if I get at the gun show, I can just purchase it from them as they will be FLL, correct? Still have the waiting period, background, etc.... but no middleman.

[Doc]

If you have a chance, go to a place like Hoover Tactical here in Birmingham (they aren't rare) with an indoor shooting range, and rent a pistol from them in the caliber and model you are considering, and shoot it. Hoover Tactical rents pistols for $10. Great way to see if the pistol fits your hand, if the recoil on it is bad, or manageable, etc. My 45 seemed like a large caliber and recoil concerned me until I shot it. It was more of a rocking back and forth recoil that didn't disturb follow up shots, rather than a recoil with a muzzle flip where you'd have to find the target again on a 2nd shot.

Anyway, hopefully others will chime in. But my $0.02 is buy a 9mm, not a 22. Or buy both, but don't carry the 22 for self defense.

That is what we did today (link (https://lotusgunrange.com/)) but we did not shoot. Just researching.....

[Darrell KSR]

Well, crud. Doc, it looks like you can't have the Creed because the magazine capacity is greater than 15. In fact, Boulder seems to have passed their own ordinance banning mags with more than 10 rounds.

That Kel Tec should be ok. 22 rimfire weapons (uhh, per Wikipedia - I know, dangerous for me to rely on that) are exempt.

But I would caution you again, the 22 is a plinking pistol, shooting tin cans, targets, and maybe a random snake or something.

[Darrell KSR]

That is what we did today (link (https://lotusgunrange.com/)) but we did not shoot. Just researching.....Gotcha. Forgot you have a built in expert there too, with your S-I-L. Just ignore my posts. I know, like any other day or topic... Lol

[Doc]

Well, crud. Doc, it looks like you can't have the Creed because the magazine capacity is greater than 15. In fact, Boulder seems to have passed their own ordinance banning mags with more than 10 rounds.

That Kel Tec should be ok. 22 rimfire weapons (uhh, per Wikipedia - I know, dangerous for me to rely on that) are exempt.

But I would caution you again, the 22 is a plinking pistol, shooting tin cans, targets, and maybe a random snake or something.

yeah, keltec is out. not going with a 22. will go 9mm.

So the limiting factor is magazine size. Good to know. +

[dan_bgblue]

Sig, HK, FN, and Taurus all make 9mm semi auto pistols in models that take 10 round magazines. Most on line retailers seem to be sold out of them though.

[KeithKSR]

So we got serious today...went to a local gun shop/range and inquired. we are leaning towards a 9mm rather than a 22 cal as the way to go. They showed us a Glock and a Smith Wesson. I thought they were over priced (the glock 19 was $550 and the SW $580). No problem paying that if worth it but considering what our purpose is, we need something that goes BANG and scares people away. Looking on the net, one that intrigued me was this Keltec P17 (22 cal). Apparently it is so good that nobody can keep them in stock. However I saw one site that had "CO legal---NO", and we plan on having it in that state for our cabin.

There is a gun show this weekend here locally so we might go to that and see if anything floats our boat.

I purchased a Glock 19 Gen 4 a few weeks ago for $499 at Rural King. To be honest for ease of use it doesn’t get much easier than a Glock. Some Keltecs can be a bit finicky about the ammo they eat.

[Doc]

we are not in boulder so 15 rounds is what our max is. FMK make a decent gun? What about Taurus? Of course I know that Smith/Wesson, Beretta, Springfield and Sig Saur are all quality. Are several that work for us by those manufactures. Does Glock have a model that maxes are 15 rounds. If so, I can't find one.

[Doc]

Gotcha. Forgot you have a built in expert there too, with your S-I-L. Just ignore my posts. I know, like any other day or topic... Lol

Nah...I value peoples experience. Tommy can get one thru his department than "gift it" to use, because he is sure we won't go on a rampage (his words). He recommends the glock, which is what he carries, but the magazine size might be an issue.

[KeithKSR]

I texted my son in law who is a police officer. He agreed, 22 is for killing varmints. 9 mm might not kill a bear but hope it would scare it away. One question for Chuck... I assume any purchased on the internet has to go to a FFL (fed lisc dealer). I assume the dealer also takes a cut, but if I get at the gun show, I can just purchase it from them as they will be FLL, correct? Still have the waiting period, background, etc.... but no middleman.

Most FFLs charge $20-$30 for paperwork. Contrary to popular mainstream media gunshows have a lot of FFL dealers at them and they will do the paperwork.

Rural King at rkguns.com will ship any of their guns to local stores and do the paperwork for $12.

BTW, for the price of the Gock 19 you can get two Taurus G3 9mm handguns. I got one for my wife at Rural King for $249 when I got my Glock. She really liked the feel of the grip and it was comfortable for her. The a Taurus G3 is made in Miami.

One note, the smaller subcompact pistols can be harder to shoot, because recoil is greater.

[KeithKSR]

Well, crud. Doc, it looks like you can't have the Creed because the magazine capacity is greater than 15. In fact, Boulder seems to have passed their own ordinance banning mags with more than 10 rounds.

That Kel Tec should be ok. 22 rimfire weapons (uhh, per Wikipedia - I know, dangerous for me to rely on that) are exempt.

But I would caution you again, the 22 is a plinking pistol, shooting tin cans, targets, and maybe a random snake or something.

Most handguns have California compliant versions with the 10 round magazine. Another option is a pistol that uses a single stack magazine, like this Glock: https://www.rkguns.com/glock-g48-9mm-made-in-usa-ua4850201.html

Or this Taurus https://www.rkguns.com/taurus-g2s-gray-black-9mm-7rd-3-25-pistol-1-g2s931g.html

Or the Smith and Wesson Shield EZ that has become popular with ladies, because it is easier to operate the slide: https://www.rkguns.com/smith-wesson-m-p9-shield-ez-9mm-8rd-3-6-pistol-w-o-safety-12437.html

[KeithKSR]

we are not in boulder so 15 rounds is what our max is. FMK make a decent gun? What about Taurus? Of course I know that Smith/Wesson, Beretta, Springfield and Sig Saur are all quality. Are several that work for us by those manufactures. Does Glock have a model that maxes are 15 rounds. If so, I can't find one.

The Glock 19 magazine is 15 rounds. Tough to go wrong with a Glock, Smith & Wesson, Sig, even the Taurus G3, G2c, G2s have been getting good reviews. CZ P10C is another good one. The Walter Creed has a 15 round magazine, but they are getting harder to find as I believe they have been discontinued.

[CitizenBBN]

First on caliber (I know it's decided, but it's funny). The joke is you don't want to carry a 22 for defense b/c in a bad situation there's a chance you'll forget yourself and pull out your weapon. Then there's a chance you might actually point it at someone. Then you may even lose your mind and shoot it, and if you hit him you'll REALLY piss him off.


Re the mag size, many if not most guns will have aftermarket mags that go over the normal mag size, Glock is for sure in that category, but usually the regulation isn't on the gun but on the mag size you can carry with it. If the mag limitation is 15 rounds and it's written to the mag and not specific makes/models of guns (which would be dumb but not unlikely given the blue state bureaucrats we're discussing) then you just need to find mags for the gun that meet the requirement.

IIRC the Glock 19 is 15 rounds (theoretically plus one chambered).

Re the price, it's not about whether the gun will go bang. it's about how reliably the gun will go bang in an accurate way, and never go bang when you don't want it to go bang. that's a little high for those guns but not way off, maybe $30-$50.

You want a top brand, well made piece, and also (very important) one that fits your hand and feels comfortable. So among the pool of Glock, Sig, S&W, Ruger, etc. you want to pick the one that is best for your hand and grip and feel, and at that point dropping an extra 100-200 is well worth it to get the gun you like most.

Ideally go to a range that rents them and try 3 or 4. There are subtle differences that make a lot of difference to the shooter. It's amazing just how much difference there is in a .1" difference in grip circumference for example.

Anyway, that's my thought on that. 9mm is solid, though for your circumstance I might think 40 S&W. A step up in stopping power without any appreciable difference in recoil. But 9mm is ubiquitous. Personally I'm a huge fan of 45 b/c it's more knock down power but actually a little less over penetration and travel, so you hopefully won't shoot into the next house over.

[CitizenBBN]

OK, your FFL question. I assume this is a gun show in Florida?

First thing is that most gun shows will have dealers AND individuals. The "gun show loophole" as it is wrongly called (or at least inaccurately) is that private individuals can get a table at a gun show and buy and sell as individuals. As a non-dealer sale they typically are not required to do any paperwork, etc. It's a private sale just like two guys selling privately.

So if you buy there from a dealer you'll do paperwork just like you were at his gun store. If you buy from an individual it depends on state laws on private sales.

I did a quick google. Looks like Florida has a 3 day waiting period so not sure how that works at a show. Second, it looks like counties etc. can pass laws to require background checks etc. on private transfers. Honestly that doesn't work very easy as FEDERAL law restricts access to the NICS system to dealers, so not sure how states that do that get around it. I assume they have a dealer there who does it.

Regardless the gun show people will know the rules for sure.

If you buy on the internet then yes the gun would be sent to a local FFL and you would go there to pick it up. They will charge a fee to do the paperwork, usually $15-$25 flat fee depending on your area.

[Darrell KSR]

Most handguns have California compliant versions with the 10 round magazine. Another option is a pistol that uses a single stack magazine, like this Glock: https://www.rkguns.com/glock-g48-9mm-made-in-usa-ua4850201.html

Or this Taurus https://www.rkguns.com/taurus-g2s-gray-black-9mm-7rd-3-25-pistol-1-g2s931g.html

Or the Smith and Wesson Shield EZ that has become popular with ladies, because it is easier to operate the slide: https://www.rkguns.com/smith-wesson-m-p9-shield-ez-9mm-8rd-3-6-pistol-w-o-safety-12437.html

I was thinking about recommending my Glock 36, a single stack .45 caliber, 6+1, too. But if he is only limited to 15-round magazines, and likes the 9mm, there are more options.

[CitizenBBN]

The Glock 19 magazine is 15 rounds. Tough to go wrong with a Glock, Smith & Wesson, Sig, even the Taurus G3, G2c, G2s have been getting good reviews. CZ P10C is another good one. The Walter Creed has a 15 round magazine, but they are getting harder to find as I believe they have been discontinued.

Beat me to it Keith. Glock 19 should comply, but a lot of mid-sized guns are at 15+1, and lots more have lower capacity mags for compliance.

Can add to that list Ruger, Springfield, HK, several others. So many high quality guns out there these days.

[CitizenBBN]

I was thinking about recommending my Glock 36, a single stack .45 caliber, 6+1, too. But if he is only limited to 15-round magazines, and likes the 9mm, there are more options.

Absolutely forcing me to a caliber that's not "big" but knowing Doc may run into an 800 pound friend out there, I'd go 45 ACP. Still very manageable to shoot and more "knock down" kinetic force.

[KeithKSR]

Absolutely forcing me to a caliber that's not "big" but knowing Doc may run into an 800 pound friend out there, I'd go 45 ACP. Still very manageable to shoot and more "knock down" kinetic force.

Little black bears like we see in Tennessee, and even in my area in Kentucky nowadays, I’d feel comfortable with a 9mm. In Grizzly country I’d want the .45 ACP.

[Darrell KSR]

The Glock 19 magazine is 15 rounds. Tough to go wrong with a Glock, Smith & Wesson, Sig, even the Taurus G3, G2c, G2s have been getting good reviews. CZ P10C is another good one. The Walter Creed has a 15 round magazine, but they are getting harder to find as I believe they have been discontinued.Creed mag is 16.

[dan_bgblue]

Doc, Taurus makes quality weapons. There may be things about one or the other that you do not like, but the quality is there regardless.

[Darrell KSR]

Well, not only am I giving useless information, but it's bad info now, too. Just got a CDNN Sports email with a Walther Creed and Smith & Wesson SDVE 9mm sale advertised, and not only is the Creed useless because of the 16-round mags it uses, but the price I quoted was way off. The sales price is $339.99. Dan had a better price he posted.

(The S&W SDVE also uses 16rd mags, and it is $349.99.)

[KeithKSR]

Well, not only am I giving useless information, but it's bad info now, too. Just got a CDNN Sports email with a Walther Creed and Smith & Wesson SDVE 9mm sale advertised, and not only is the Creed useless because of the 16-round mags it uses, but the price I quoted was way off. The sales price is $339.99. Dan had a better price he posted.

(The S&W SDVE also uses 16rd mags, and it is $349.99.)

The demand has driven prices up. The Creed and S&W SDVE have been a lot lower than those prices.

[CitizenBBN]

Honestly you guys can keep the SDVE. It's reliable and a good solid gun but I'd pay a bit more and get something different. Just doesn't fit me well.

If I had my absolute choice I'd go Sig P220, S&W M&P or the HK USP. Those are all 45 ACP. Given my absolute choice and no size issues I get the HK USP with suppressor.

I really like the Sig feel and the way it cycles. The HK is surprisingly light IMO and the M&P is an outstanding gun with a tight feel that just feels quality.

[Doc]

What we are down to. I'm thinking the SW. Only concern is its too big for my wife (there is a joke here but I'm not going there). Going to go a range and shoot all three to see which we prefer.

Taurus G2S 9mm 7rd 3.25" Pistol 1-G2S931
Rating: 100%
Special Price $179.93

Glock 48 9mm 10rd 4.17" Pistol, Black PA4850201
$448.00

Smith & Wesson M&P Shield .40 S&W Subcompact Pistol 180020
Rating: 98%
18
$319.99

[dan_bgblue]

Hand cannons (https://www.wideopenspaces.com/10mm-vs-45-acp-which-one-is-right-for-you/)

[dan_bgblue]

9mm vs ,40 cal (https://www.pewpewtactical.com/9mm-vs-40sw/)

[Darrell KSR]

What we are down to. I'm thinking the SW. Only concern is its too big for my wife (there is a joke here but I'm not going there). Going to go a range and shoot all three to see which we prefer.

Taurus G2S 9mm 7rd 3.25" Pistol 1-G2S931
Rating: 100%
Special Price $179.93

Glock 48 9mm 10rd 4.17" Pistol, Black PA4850201
$448.00

Smith & Wesson M&P Shield .40 S&W Subcompact Pistol 180020
Rating: 98%
18
$319.99

Not going to comment on the difference between Taurus-Glock-S&W, but a couple of general comments from me that may or may not be helpful. Probably not. So ignore if you want.

First, as long as you're comfortable with the caliber, you're doing exactly what you should do. Shoot them and see which one(s) you are most comfortable with. You'll see some experts say that you'll get used to a particular weapon, but for my money, that requires you committing to regular practice with it. I bet not 10% of the people who say they will regularly practice actually do. So I say make sure you're comfortable from the beginning.

Having said that, if you are shooting with one of those weapons and you (or Mrs. Doc) finds the recoil/muzzle flip not to your liking, it might not be because of the caliber of the weapon, but the size of the weapon. You've got some subcompact/compact weapons there, which is fine, and ideally suited for concealed carry--inside your waist band, on the hip kinda thing. But you MIGHT look at some others, if your need is at "at home" defense weapon, and/or carrying it out in the woods, as opposed to carrying it on your hip for dinner in a restaurant in town. If you opt for a standard size pistol, same caliber, you may find it is more comfortable to shoot--larger is actually easier to shoot than smaller, in this instance. They handle the recoil better, since it is absorbed throughout the larger frame, do not have as pronounced of a muzzle blast, etc. And they are generally more accurate because the barrel length is usually longer.

Anyway...good luck (and feel free to ignore this).

[Darrell KSR]

Hand cannons (https://www.wideopenspaces.com/10mm-vs-45-acp-which-one-is-right-for-you/)


9mm vs ,40 cal (https://www.pewpewtactical.com/9mm-vs-40sw/)

Those are both pretty good articles, but the one thing I found when I was looking for myself years ago...you can find advocates of just about anything. I read so many articles contradicting each other, saw so many ballistics tests, watched so many competing videos, it was mind-boggling.

For my money, I prefer .45 ACP over 40 caliber or 9mm, and I prefer 9mm over 40 caliber. I like the knockdown power of a .45 the best. But as the article you posted said, improvements in 9mm ballistics make me like it over the (also sometimes-harder-to-find) .40 caliber. When the FBI and other law enforcement agencies starting going back to 9mm, that told me that times had changed.

[dan_bgblue]

I used to own and shoot the Army surplus M1911 45 cal and loved it. If I still had it, I would not be looking for a new sidearm. I would disregard the want for a pistol I can conceal carry and just put the M1911 on my hip and go to town. That pistol fit my hand and grip perfectly and the recoil was not bad.

I would not have hesitated to have taken it deer, hog, bear, coyote, wolf, bigfoot, hunting any day of the week and twice on the weekends.

[CitizenBBN]

Dan, surely we can find you some milspec that suits for the older 45 ball ammo.

I strongly prefer the 45 myself. I carry a 357 but will likely switch to one of the subcompact 45s as they are really nice.

I'd go 45 acp or at least shoot the +p 9mm and see how it feels.

[dan_bgblue]

30 min youtube on the history of the Colt 1911. There have been about 14 various models

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgOicEVA4u8

[CitizenBBN]

Had to re-read, you're talking about a milspec 1911, not the milspec ball ammo?

Go get a good service 1911. Can never go wrong with one. Pricey though, they're well collected. I sold a first year for over $4K a while back.

[dan_bgblue]

I do not expect to find one that I want to pay for. I have been searching the internet for several years and #2,500.00 and up to $5,000.00 is the price range for all the 1911 and even the 1911A1s Some off brand 1911s can be b ought in the $1,200.00 range at times

[KeithKSR]

Those are both pretty good articles, but the one thing I found when I was looking for myself years ago...you can find advocates of just about anything. I read so many articles contradicting each other, saw so many ballistics tests, watched so many competing videos, it was mind-boggling.

For my money, I prefer .45 ACP over 40 caliber or 9mm, and I prefer 9mm over 40 caliber. I like the knockdown power of a .45 the best. But as the article you posted said, improvements in 9mm ballistics make me like it over the (also sometimes-harder-to-find) .40 caliber. When the FBI and other law enforcement agencies starting going back to 9mm, that told me that times had changed.

A major reason for my selling my .45 and going with the 9mm is ammo cost to target practice with. Down the road I’d like to get another 1911, likely in .45 acp. The 1911 is very customizable, so even a $400-$800 milspec version can provide a platform for a nice shooter.

[KeithKSR]

I do not expect to find one that I want to pay for. I have been searching the internet for several years and #2,500.00 and up to $5,000.00 is the price range for all the 1911 and even the 1911A1s Some off brand 1911s can be b ought in the $1,200.00 range at times

Springfield 1911 pricing starts out around $500. Kimber starts pricing at around $800 for their basic 1911. I never had any issues with my Rock Island, they start out in the $400-$500 range these days. These will all be 1911a1 versions.

[dan_bgblue]

Thanks Keith. I need to do some updated research.

[CitizenBBN]

Springfield makes a really fine 1911. I like the 1911, just not in love with the capacity of the design for a full size gun.

[Doc]

Going with the Glock 19. Son in law can get the police supplier for $387.00. Will do the CCW once we have it.

The SW shield I shot today was a subcompact....too small. Might be too small for my wife. Ideal for her hand would be a compact but that is too small for me so going full sized, and glock seems the best

[Darrell KSR]

Glock 19 has been a staple for many years and you absolutely made a good choice there. And a great price.

[KeithKSR]

Going with the Glock 19. Son in law can get the police supplier for $387.00. Will do the CCW once we have it.

The SW shield I shot today was a subcompact....too small. Might be too small for my wife. Ideal for her hand would be a compact but that is too small for me so going full sized, and glock seems the best

My wife likes the full size better than the smaller pistols. She really liked the Taurus G3, it felt really good in her hand, so that’s what I got her.

That’s a really good price on the Glock 19, usually they run $499. Pandemic pricing was higher. It’s hard to go wrong with a Glock 19.

[Doc]

Surpised how much I enjoyed the range yesterday. It was a full "try a few guns/find a right gun/learn how to shoot this gun" thing. Also some good time with my son in law. He brought 3 guns.... a glock, an FN and and something else (all 9mm) plus his AK 47. I guess I get why some folks like shooting. Not that I am antigun (as most know) but I am and will continue to be pro gun regulation in as much as I am pro regulation for cigarettes and alcohol. Am looking forward to getting "my piece" and heading back with my wife and SIL to get proficient. Will do the CCW even though have no intention of toting a pistol on my hip or on my calf, but clearly having a permit is just easier, especially when going across state lined due to dual state residency

[Doc]

Glock 19 has been a staple for many years and you absolutely made a good choice there. And a great price.

As Tommy says....you pull the trigger and it works. For him that is important! Nice thing is after the range we had a few beers and chatted about his profession and the current environment. Intesting stuff from a cops point of view. He works for a small town with a large immigrant population. Not sure if you ever met Tommy (dont think so but maybe...I do know we talked about him...he was the 5 year boarder, and #7 on the "slide parking game"....LOL)

[dan_bgblue]

If you don't shoot someone in the first 6 months can you get all of your money back?

[Darrell KSR]

As Tommy says....you pull the trigger and it works. For him that is important! Nice thing is after the range we had a few beers and chatted about his profession and the current environment. Intesting stuff from a cops point of view. He works for a small town with a large immigrant population. Not sure if you ever met Tommy (dont think so but maybe...I do know we talked about him...he was the 5 year boarder, and #7 on the "slide parking game"....LOL)

Oh, I definitely "remember" him lol.

Having fun this summer...two of my kids were supposed to be off somewhere else; a third was buying a home. Through a variety of circumstances, all fell through, so I have 6 in my slide parking game right now. I'm like this....

|.....|.....|

|...............\

....................... ---

[KeithKSR]

Oh, I definitely "remember" him lol.

Having fun this summer...two of my kids were supposed to be off somewhere else; a third was buying a home. Through a variety of circumstances, all fell through, so I have 6 in my slide parking game right now. I'm like this....

|.....|.....|

|...............\

....................... ---

You need to sell your house and convert an abandoned strip mall to housing. That will give you plenty of parking, and you could convert store fronts to apartments for them.

[Darrell KSR]

You need to sell your house and convert an abandoned strip mall to housing. That will give you plenty of parking, and you could convert store fronts to apartments for them.I need you here to manage this for me. That sounds like a darn good idea.

[CitizenBBN]

Does anyone else envision Darrell's house as looking oddly like a large shoe?

[Darrell KSR]

Does anyone else envision Darrell's house as looking oddly like a large shoe?

Feels more like a tennis shoe two sizes too small.

[KeithKSR]

I do not expect to find one that I want to pay for. I have been searching the internet for several years and #2,500.00 and up to $5,000.00 is the price range for all the 1911 and even the 1911A1s Some off brand 1911s can be b ought in the $1,200.00 range at times

Dan this Hickock45 video comparing $500 and $3000 1911s may be of interest to you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W7sb9Zp-8o

[Darrell KSR]

Dan this Hickock45 video comparing $500 and $3000 1911s may be of interest to you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W7sb9Zp-8o

Man, you gotta love Hickock. That video starts great. I just skimmed around on it, and although I've seen him do it hundreds of times, my jaw still drops open at his shooting prowess around the 14:50 mark.

[Darrell KSR]

So...an hour of watching Hickok videos...lol.

[KeithKSR]

Man, you gotta love Hickock. That video starts great. I just skimmed around on it, and although I've seen him do it hundreds of times, my jaw still drops open at his shooting prowess around the 14:50 mark.

I have become a big Hickock45 fan. The man can definitely put lead on the target. I watched his Sunday Shootaround last Sunday morning, I’ll probably be making that feature regular Sunday morning viewing.

[Darrell KSR]

I have become a big Hickock45 fan. The man can definitely put lead on the target. I watched his Sunday Shootaround last Sunday morning, I’ll probably be making that feature regular Sunday morning viewing.

He's just the kind of guy you'd like to spend an afternoon with shooting and shooting the breeze. Seems like such a genuine guy too. Man, can he shoot.

[KeithKSR]

He's just the kind of guy you'd like to spend an afternoon with shooting and shooting the breeze. Seems like such a genuine guy too. Man, can he shoot.

That’s kind of what his Sunday Shootarounds are like. Shoots a bit, then talks a bit.

[KeithKSR]

Man, you gotta love Hickock. That video starts great. I just skimmed around on it, and although I've seen him do it hundreds of times, my jaw still drops open at his shooting prowess around the 14:50 mark.

Hitting that gong at the distance he does with any handgun impresses me.

[KentuckyWildcat]

https://www.outdoorlife.com/bear-defense-gun-shootout-magnum-revolvers-vs-10mm-autos/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1G61znDzxsckeXK6L7Zu6imyYgvd8AbkXI_DXrE qZbYVsB-2paWestL7k

[suncat05]

Hickock45 is good, his knowledge is very good. Sootch00 is good too. And the Honest Outlaw, as well as Reid Henrichs.
James Yeager is good, but he's too opinionated for my taste.
If you want to learn about Glocks, check out Lenny MacGill (spelling ?) @ the GlockStore on YouTube. He's out of San Diego, CA.