Who is REALLY responsible? China

[dan_bgblue]

China's efforts to rebrand itself as a global leader focused on humanitarian relief amid the coronavirus outbreak has hit a major snag and perhaps revealed Beijing's true intentions behind their public relations blitz.

After telling the world that it would donate masks, face guards and testing equipment to Italy, China quietly backtracked and sold the Mediterranean country desperately-needed medical equipment, according to a report.

What's worse is that the personal protective equipment (PPE) China forced Italy to buy was actually the same PPE Italy donated to China before coronavirus rushed its own shores and killed nearly 16,000 people. (https://www.foxnews.com/world/china-italy-coronavirus-supplies-buy-back)

[CitizenBBN]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/trump-admin-weighs-legal-action-over-alleged-chinese-hoarding-of-ppe

It's clear that the Chinese knew how serious this was going to be by January, and they began restricting export of PPE and, even more damning, BUYING huge amounts of it, 1.2 BILLION worth, from other countries and stockpiling it.

They KNEW this was going to happen, and they stockpiled the world's supply so they could use it for themselves and also dole it back out and act like some benevolent helper.

IMO they also knew this was going to spread like it did, and covered up the extent of the threat for months. The fact they were buying up PPE proves they knew this in advance and decided to keep the rest of the world in the dark.

It's a scandal of genocidal proportions. Now I wonder if the US media can put aside their Trump hatred long enough to report on our real enemy.

[CitizenBBN]

Dan I merged these threads, hope that's OK. Same topic, the fact that China has consciously planned for months to manipulate this situation for political and financial gain.

[UKHistory]

Is China a villain? A rogue state? Yes. And it is pretty shitty to sell what the Italians donated to them.

Our supply lines, not withstanding, we had knowledge and could have and should have moved quicker.

Plenty of time to critique the US response.

I will say this. We want to maintain alliances with Western countries. We also want to make sure that the states don't feel like it is a lord of the lies environment where we are under the Articles of Confederation as opposed to the Constitution.

If California, Hawaii and Alaska had been told that the Japanese were their problem and the Federal government was here as backup...F that.

[CitizenBBN]

Our supply lines, not withstanding, we had knowledge and could have and should have moved quicker.


I'd dispute that based on what we've seen come out so far. The FDA and CDC, who I think we can all conclude are smart, non-political and experts in this field, clearly were not responding to this early.

At the point at which the virus was already here in Seattle the FDA was still doing everything "business as usual". There's no way Trump or any other politician was going to get out ahead of the experts on this, and our experts, IMO believing the Chinese propaganda, weren't really losing their minds on this in January and early February.

Here's an article from a source that is surely anti-Trump, detailing some of the simple bureaucracy in the way at that time:

https://www.gq.com/story/inside-americas-coronavirus-testing-crisis?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Clearly Trump has been following the advice of these professionals from some time, but I would contend he's been following it all along. Nothing has come out that he was resisting their calls for action internally (and given the leaky nature of this administration you'd think it would have by now), and their own statements and timeline indicate they didn't see this as a threat requiring a shut down in January or February.

I think they were concerned, and some were calling for action, but clearly the FDA and CDC were slow to respond. If they were slow it's not fair to expect politicians to respond.

And the chinese aren't doing something that is just shitty. They are taking a global pandemic they failed to recognize or stop and trying to manipulate it for political power.

That's like saying Stalin was really shitty IMO. This is calculated mass murder.

Now that's not a hard thing for the Chinese leaders. They have concentration camps with anywhere from 100s of 1000s to millions in them.

But they:

1) Failed to recognize this problem. Some of that is forgivable, but they then

2) systematically repressed reports and information on the problem coming from doctors

3) upon realizing the global scope of the problem began restricting export of PPE and simultaneously buying up PPE worldwide, while

4) not telling the world the nature or level of the problem, allowing people to leave China by the millions who they knew would be carriers

5) then using that hoarded PPE to "aid" countries for political gain.


They unleashed this, knowingly withheld information and allowed it to spread, and now intend to turn it to their political and apparently financial advantage.


For those of you on here convinced of conspiracies about Trump plotting a coup, this is the REAL, in your face, totalitarian conspiracy. This regime has labor camps where they forcibly harvest organs from people they deem enemies of the state. They have a complete police state with tracking Orwell wouldn't have imagined.

This kind of behavior is absolutely not out of character for them at all. They are the real threat. Time for us as Americans to stop naval gazing at each other and see the real and obvious threat to America, to democracy, and to world stability.

Trump's "America First" needs to be implemented with regards to China in every way possible. Bring back manufacturing, punish companies who export our technology to them, isolate them economically, politically and militarily in every way. End the "One China" policy, arm Taiwan, patrol the South China Sea, create trade blocks of the Four Tigers, Japan and the US.

Pull out the stops, and most off stop seeing this as a chance for internal political points when the enemy is a foreign nation.

[Catonahottinroof]

One lesson to be learned from this ordeal, supply chains for necessary products shouldn’t cross any international border to be built.

[Doc]

Trump should have seen this coming

[CitizenBBN]

Trump should have seen this coming

In some ways he did. His call for less dependence on the Chinese and foreign manufacture is a sound and now proven point.

[Doc]

In some ways he did. His call for less dependence on the Chinese and foreign manufacture is a sound and now proven point.

I was being sarcastic

[KeithKSR]

In February Fauci announced there was nothing to fear from the virus.

[CitizenBBN]

I was being sarcastic

I know. :)

Just making the point that he did in fact run on the issue of over reliance on foreign goods. I think that argument is settled.

[CitizenBBN]

In February Fauci announced there was nothing to fear from the virus.

I think the whole world was looking at data from the Chinese, and that data was deeply flawed and grossly underestimated the situation.

part of it too is that this is a 100 year thing, and they were looking at it more like the avian flu or SARS etc., which did in fact peter out fairly quickly.

[Doc]

I know. :)

Just making the point that he did in fact run on the issue of over reliance on foreign goods. I think that argument is settled.

Figured you did......

WHO bears some as well.

[dan_bgblue]

WHO bears some as well.

From what I have been able to glean, WHO bears a lot of blame due to their apparent fear of China and their unwillingness to let the world know the magnitude of the potential problem.

[CitizenBBN]

From what I have been able to glean, WHO bears a lot of blame due to their apparent fear of China and their unwillingness to let the world know the magnitude of the potential problem.

This. It's coming out that WHO should be prosecuted as an accessory to murder.

China pulled the trigger. WHO helped them dig the hole.

[MickintheHam]

I think the whole world was looking at data from the Chinese, and that data was deeply flawed and grossly underestimated the situation.

part of it too is that this is a 100 year thing, and they were looking at it more like the avian flu or SARS etc., which did in fact peter out fairly quickly.

It's exactly why Trump was referring to this as the Chinese Virus. He was sending them a very not so subtle message. If nothing else the Chinese are preoccupied with image. Too many at WHO are in their back pocket. For that matter too many in Washington, DC and the NBA are in their back pocket.

[ukpumacat]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/white-house-memos-warned-in-run-up-to-pandemic-of-up-to-2m-deaths-economic-devastation

[kingcat]

Even Fox who first decided it was a good opportunity to disparage Dems are now diverting blame by throwing shade to the WH.
...or throwing curve balls by actually reporting facts ex post facto.

$trange days indeed.

I understand their need to avoid the national sympathy that will accompany lawsuits they will face as everything comes into focus.
But it serves no beneficial purpose currently. It should be revisited at a later date, so government can operate at full efficiency without distraction in the midst of crisis.

Still, the "our minds were elsewhere" argument is just as damning as it appeared.

[dan_bgblue]

The Feb. 23 memo, first reported by Axios and confirmed by Fox News, warned that “there is an increasing probability of a full-blown COVID-19 pandemic that could infect as many as 100 million Americans, with a loss of life as many as 1-2 million souls.”

Do we still have prognostications that come any where near the numbers predicted above?

The estimate was ultimately in line with what officials say could have happened without any social distancing measures and other precautions now in place across the country.

That is spitball guessing with projected outcomes to try and prove a point.

But with extensive restrictions in place, they said the coronavirus could still leave 100,000 to 240,000 people in the U.S. dead and millions infected.

How does this line up-with the IHME numbers recently shared here?

On March 27, the United States hit the 100,000 case mark. On April 1, the number of Americans infected doubled to more than 200,000 cases. Just three days later, on Saturday, positive COVID-19 cases topped 300,000.

As of Tuesday, the U.S. reported more than 368,400 positive cases of COVID-19 and more than 10,990 deaths.


The huge increase in numbers of infected cases pretty much lines up with the availability of testing supplies that allowed for a huge increase in the number of people that were tested in that short period of time. We also have a long way to go to see the 100,000 deaths that is the lowest recent projection for deaths by virus. It is also a hell of a lot less than the one early projection of 1 to 2 million virus deaths.

[CitizenBBN]

Still, the "our minds were elsewhere" argument is just as damning as it appeared.

Everyone's minds were elsewhere. Why?

Well, the Chinese were NOT telling the world what they really knew about the risks, so most underestimated the problem.

Second, we have had 3 years of completely stupid naval gazing going on ever since Trump was elected. The Russia hoax, the impeachment, it's been the Trump love/hate fest for 3 years, which I have complained FAR before this mess was a huge distraction on our ability to operate in the world and allowed us to ignore a laundry list of REAL actual problems, both foreign and domestic.

Did we get coverage of the opiod crisis, or even a focus on a good liberal topic like healthcare? Focus on what the Chinese are doing globally to consolidate their influence? Anything other than endless hand wringing about things as minute as a single phone call to a single foreign head of state?

Physicians, heal thyselves. it's been obvious since Trump's nomination that the media and political realms weren't paying attention to anything actually important. It only made the news if it could hurt Trump, and most of what did make the news was so unimportant as to be devoid of purpose. Trump feeds it with his inane tweets, but the media and others take the bait every time.

[kingcat]

It did make the news, and in a huge way, but was heralded as fake news by the man holding the most powerful and influential office in the world.
You cant just re-write such recent history.
There just is no argument there. Only side stepping and/or clouding the issue.
That's exactly why Fox was reporting it.

But as I said, it's time to move on and revisit all this when time can afford to be devoted to it. (generally speaking)
It is in the past for now...but documented beyond a shadow of doubt. And the president currently has more on his plate than anyone can comfortably deal with as it is. That plate was served months ago.

[kingcat]

In mid February according to USA Today news here.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/07/coronavirus-response-officials-got-warnings-but-didnt-act-quickly/2958266001/

With a 2nd such direct report to the president on 2/23.

On the day Kadlec sent his email, President Trump repeated at a news conference a refrain he had recited for weeks: “We have it very much under control in this country.”
That was also the day Trump received a second warning from a top advisor that a coronavirus pandemic could cost the country trillions of dollars and endanger millions of Americans

This is a week later..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=G5TZ6fTYrsE&feature=emb_logo

On the Red Dawn threads, experts traded their own research, international headlines and analysis from other publicly available data coming out of China and the cruise ships that were carrying some of the first American patients.
National officials activating response plans across federal agencies in February and into March also were warned through the emails of early signs the virus appeared to be spreading in places such as California and Washington state.
The names copied on the correspondence – a portion of which USA TODAY obtained from direct recipients and public records requests – include division-level leaders at the CDC’s public health offices; Dr. Gregory Martin, a division director at the State Department; Mecher at Veterans Affairs; as well as Kadlec’s key lieutenants at the preparedness agency inside HHS.

[ukpumacat]

The CIA reported to Trump that China was hiding numbers. But he ignored them.

In fact, he defended them:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/trump-not-worried-china-cover-coronavirus-call-president-xi-jinping-1486293%3famp=1

He downplayed it. He lied about the severity. He didn’t prepare.

U.S. deaths 12,400
South Korea deaths: 192

Both had first positive case Jan 21. They had higher population density and a supercluster of cases. They tested and tracked immediately.

They didn’t trust China.

[CitizenBBN]

Puma, just put "we" in place of "he" and you'll be vastly more accurate. I could post about 30 links to officials across the country of both parties who were downplaying it the whole time and even after Trump wasn't?

The South Koreans did get out ahead of it better. They were about the only ones. All of Europe, the Middle east, all with us or behind us on this, but somehow it's still just down to "he". lol.

If we can ever stop the Trump hate we might be able to work on problems. I get why people don't like him, I sure don't like him, but it limits objectivity to focus on "he" when the FDA, NIH, CDC, the mayor of New York, numerous other public officials (including Biden, who criticized the travel restrictions despite his staff's revisionism), and oh, all of Europe, were right there with him.

It's like holding FDR responsible for Pearl Harbor, and btw both at the time and to this day some do hold him responsible. Why? B/c yes there were reports of possible Japanese movements, and War Department studies and other voices showing the risk. We simply missed it. Yes he could have seen it coming, and his staff could have seen it coming, but it didn't happen.

And like Trump now, some did blame FDR for missing it as tensions were obviously rising with Japan with the oil embargo and other actions. But in historic terms that has been dismissed as simply the normal ebb and flow of seeing these things coming and not seeing them. Wars are full of effectively misleading leaders and generals who are still great and effective even if they sometimes are misdirected.

Trump was being given SOME information about it being a problem from his staff, but was also clearly being given information that it wasn't as big of a threat.

Singling out just him for these decisions is simply misleading, just like how missing the attack on Pearl Harbor was a whole chain of people missing clues and information.

the problem is that then we aren't learning from mistakes, like maybe having the FDA not take 2 months to fast track a test in a damned crisis. Real solutions and dialogue get lost in this political blame game. If Trump was singularly to blame them I'm all for it, but it's clear this was a large scale failure to see this coming by a host of agencies, nations, individuals, etc.

[ukpumacat]

Absolutely. I think there are others to blame (including China). He’s just certainly included in the list.
On this board, I was posting his dismissive comments on the day he was making them while KNOWING this thing was a million times worse.
I’m a nobody. No CIA working for me. No medical professionals. None of that. And yet somehow when he was saying “we have shut it down” I was at Costco stocking up on supplies.
I don’t know how other Presidents would have handled this exact crisis. None of us do. And I have stated several times I think he has handled this much better of late.
But in a thread that is literally called “who is REALLY to blame? China” it’s worth remembering your point: others are to blame as well. Including Trump.

[CitizenBBN]

He has his role in this, but the fact that you and others were concerned about it becoming worse isn't really evidence.

Lots of people thought SARS was going to be like this, and turned out wrong. Lots of preppers have been saying this will happen for 20 years. Being wrong 19 of them doesn't mean they were "right". People go stock up on supplies for everything from pandemics that haven't turned out to snow storms that fizzle. Some happen, some don't.

Blame is different from making a right or wrong prediction. Trying to figure out what is going to happen is inexact and when someone picks wrong that's not the same as "blame".

"Blame", or responsibility as I focused on it, is about doing something knowingly that causes an outcome, or at least some level of gross negligence that one should have known. If all these media and other sources were also downplaying it then it absolves Trump of gross negligence. He picked wrong, his usual "it's all great" thing didn't work out, but it's not gross negligence.

So who in this chain of events KNEW there were issues, KNEW It was bad and either didn't act or acted contrary to everyone's interests?

Not Trump. Not Fauci. Not even De Blasio. The only party that KNEW what they were doing when they downplayed it, and falsified numbers and began hoarding the global supply of PPE, was the Chinese government.

That's it. Everyone else was acting in good faith, even if their decisions were wrong. If you are acting in good faith for the good of the people then you are only "responsible" if you are grossly negligent, and that's just not what happened.

It's the Chinese government that allowed this to get out of hand b/c they didn't want the PR issues, that then covered up the extent of the problem, and that knowing the extent of the problem began blocking export of PPE and buying more from around the world from nations they knew would soon need it.

Trump missed, and misjudged, based on his advisors and what was presented to him, which unfortunately did not include voices of those warning this was going to be a disaster.

But only the Chinese have acted in bad faith.

I can use any number of legal analogies to support the position if desired, but in terms of "guilt" in our system of jurisprudence the "mens rea" or state of mind is critical to determining the level of guilt and crime. That framework is the best way to judge this situation, and using that framework it's easy to cut through the politics and subjective issues and focus on the objective. Using that approach the only "guilty party" in this that is really actionable is the Chinese.

And that doesn't just cover Trump. It covers Fauci, it covers the Brits, it covers Italy. Much of the rest of the world was just as blindsided or even more so. Heck, Italy sent PPE to China to help not knowing what was coming for them. In hindsight a horrible decision, but are they to "blame" for it? IMO probably not, as they were lied to by the Chinese like everyone else, and their sin was believing it.

Trump's sin was believing the Chinese to some degree (though not fully b/c they howled at his travel restrictions), and applying his simplistic optimism "it's great" to a situation that was not great. He sure doesn't get positive points for it, i.e. his travel restrictions were good but are easily wiped out by not having done more, but I don't see negligence here either.

With China we have pure unadulterated guilt. They didn't accidentally shoot someone while cleaning their gun, this was premeditated mass murder.

[kingcat]

Regardless, my prayer is that my family and you, my friends here and elsewhere, are blessed and any losses from this thing minimum.

The true villain in this has no opinions one way or the other and could care less how and when it got here. It aims to feed on us.

[ukpumacat]

Well, as I’ve said many times, we just disagree on it.
I do think Trumps early actions are to blame. He was being told the severity and he largely ignored it early (at least publicly) for political reasons. He spread false information ( with the help of Fox News) and caused millions of people to not take this nearly as serious as they should have.
He and Fox News made the Coronavirus a political ploy by the Democrats (“their next hoax”) and many many people infected others and were infected unknowingly because of it.

[CitizenBBN]

Prove to me that he was "told the severity", and apparently repeatedly based on your language.

The article I linked today says that Trump was never given the memos or audience with people saying it would be bad.

[ukpumacat]

Prove to me that he was "told the severity", and apparently repeatedly based on your language.

The article I linked today says that Trump was never given the memos or audience with people saying it would be bad.

Ok. But you and I both know it won't matter. I can show example after example. But there will always be an excuse or justification or reason why it doesn't matter. But, I will gladly link.

[ukpumacat]

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/intelligence-report-warned-coronavirus-crisis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273

From that warning in November, the sources described repeated briefings through December for policy-makers and decision-makers across the federal government as well as the National Security Council at the White House. All of that culminated with a detailed explanation of the problem that appeared in the President’s Daily Brief of intelligence matters in early January, the sources said. For something to have appeared in the PDB, it would have had to go through weeks of vetting and analysis, according to people who have worked on presidential briefings in both Republican and Democratic administrations.

[ukpumacat]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/white-house-memos-warned-in-run-up-to-pandemic-of-up-to-2m-deaths-economic-devastation

And again, I will link this one since its from Fox News. If you honestly think that Trump never saw or heard about any of this, I have some land to sell you.

He sent that memo on January 29th. In it, he talked about how many Americans could die and recommended that we shut down travel from China immediately. Two days later Trump did just that.

[ukpumacat]

Here is another:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/navarro-warning-trump-coronavirus.html

So, again, Navarro, a top advisor to the President wrote two memos warning of how many millions could die in America and what needed to be done about it.
“This lack of protection elevates the risk of the coronavirus evolving into a full-blown pandemic, imperiling the lives of millions of Americans.”

He wrote of many things that needed to be done immediately to prevent this. One of those was done to a smaller degree (The China travel ban) and the others were not done until later.

This is of course the guy that Trump has put in charge of getting the same medical equipment that he wrote in that memo to hospitals now.

The biggest point is this (which doesn't matter if Trump saw it or not): Navarro knew all of this. And believed it to the point of writing a memo to the National Security Council and the President himself.

But somehow we are to believe that Trump didn't or couldn't know? Please.

His first memo was dated January 29th.

Here are just several things Trump said about the Coronavirus AFTER that date:


Jan. 30: “We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five — and those people are all recuperating successfully. But we’re working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it’s going to have a very good ending for us … that I can assure you.”

Feb. 10: “Now, the virus that we’re talking about having to do — you know, a lot of people think that goes away in April with the heat — as the heat comes in. Typically, that will go away in April. We’re in great shape though. We have 12 cases — 11 cases, and many of them are in good shape now.”

Feb. 23: “We have it very much under control in this country.”

Feb. 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”

Feb. 26: “So we’re at the low level. As they get better, we take them off the list, so that we’re going to be pretty soon at only five people. And we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time. So we’ve had very good luck.”

Feb. 26: “And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”

Feb. 26: “We’re going down, not up. We’re going very substantially down, not up.”

Feb. 27: “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.”

Feb. 29: “And I’ve gotten to know these professionals. They’re incredible. And everything is under control. I mean, they’re very, very cool. They’ve done it, and they’ve done it well. Everything is really under control.”

March 4: “[W]e have a very small number of people in this country [infected]. We have a big country. The biggest impact we had was when we took the 40-plus people [from a cruise ship]. … We brought them back. We immediately quarantined them. But you add that to the numbers. But if you don’t add that to the numbers, we’re talking about very small numbers in the United States.”

March 7: “No, I’m not concerned at all. No, we’ve done a great job with it.”

March 9: “So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!”

March 10: “And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”

[ukpumacat]

Here is another:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/act-now-to-prevent-an-american-epidemic-11580255335

An Op-Ed written in the Wall Street Journal in January telling how serious it was and what needed to be done to stop it.

And here is another list that includes a timeline and quotes from the CDC director in January:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/opinion/trump-coronavirus.html

[ukpumacat]

The South Koreans did get out ahead of it better. They were about the only ones. All of Europe, the Middle east, all with us or behind us on this, but somehow it's still just down to "he". lol.



Not just South Korea (and I know you said "about").

Look at this article on New Zealand. They have had ONE death. One. They did what I was hoping we would do: a 30 day National Lockdown. They have basically let the virus die out there.

The biggest issue in America is that because we didn't do a National Lockdown, its still spreading; in all of those red states that had so few cases and everywhere else. So even if a state flattens the curve (like California), the virus is still spreading like crazy.

Japan only has 93 deaths.
Australia has 50.
Saudi Arabia.
Singapore.

Those are several countries that reacted right away and kept their death totals all below 100 total.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/asia-pacific/491532-new-zealands-coronavirus-lockdown-has-resulted-in-only-one

[Catonahottinroof]

Chance of getting 5M (New Zealand) people to act upon government recommendation is going to be better than 327M (United States)..
I’ll take those chances every time.

[CitizenBBN]

Ok. But you and I both know it won't matter. I can show example after example. But there will always be an excuse or justification or reason why it doesn't matter. But, I will gladly link.

It can't be links to articles or people who were sounding alarms. From the report I saw today there was a memo on this in the White House and he never saw it.

The point is that he no doubt got conflicting advice at best. Some maybe did tell him it was a risk, some undoubtedly told him it was less of one.

But to single just him out you have to have his staff up in arms warning him to do more and him just refusing, and that just isn't provable.

We KNOW people like Biden even criticized the action he did take. We KNOW other major officials and leaders were still downplaying the risk at the same time he was, some of them even holding out longer.

It just wasn't the world v Trump in this mess. Sure he's an optimist, and yes he wanted the economy to keep humming, what President doesn't want the economy to keep doing well? Is that what is now considered self interest?

My guess is that he got briefings that said there was a risk but that it wasn't significant AT THAT TIME, which is consistent with public comments of various agency officials at that time.

Him choosing to side with the info that it wasn't as significant a risk was an error obviously, but is different from being "responsible" or "guilty" under any Western standard of the concept.

[CitizenBBN]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/white-house-memos-warned-in-run-up-to-pandemic-of-up-to-2m-deaths-economic-devastation

And again, I will link this one since its from Fox News. If you honestly think that Trump never saw or heard about any of this, I have some land to sell you.

He sent that memo on January 29th. In it, he talked about how many Americans could die and recommended that we shut down travel from China immediately. Two days later Trump did just that.

I do think he heard it. I also think he heard the other side. that is how these briefings usually work, and that is consistent with other reports we've seen.

Now did Trump see the whole memo or just a summary or whatever? I Can't say, I don't know how his briefings work, but I imagine it was a summary given his management approach.

And he did restrict travel.

So look at it the other way: Trump IMO tends to actually listen to his advisors. Yes he's petulant and goes out on limbs constantly and fires people when he doesn't think they are on board, but when it comes to the details of actions the last 3 years he seems to generally run with the advice given to him. There are a ton of policy decisions that are that way.

Now here he did restrict travel, and if he was told to shut down the economy I'm sure he resisted, as would about anyone. but if he was told we needed to produce testing kits what's his reason for not listening?

there isn't one. It's costless politically for him to tell the CDC to get busy and prepare. it's pretty costless politically for him to start gathering up PPE just in case.

So I have to wonder why that didn't happen given that it would be a politically smart move. The only reasons why he wouldn't are a) he thought doing so would instill panic and hurt the economy, etc. (if we want to call that self motivated OK, but that would be the reason) and b) he wasn't told he needed to do it.

Those memos you linked I specifically linked just today.

Like I said, I can also show you the memos on the 9/11 pilots, the memos on the Japanese attack on pearl Harbor, etc. The existence of some memo in the trillion page stack of memos in washington isn't a smoking gun here. Even if it got to him in some form it was also probably given with other information that said something different.

So then he has to decide between all of that information. We can say he then chose wrong, but saying he knew the severity of the problem and did nothing is not the same thing. Saying he was presented with this as a risk, along with being presented information it wasn't as much of a risk, and he chose wrong, is far more accurate.

And he's in good company. The entire EU leadership also made the same decisions, with Italy going so far as to send PPE to China just weeks before they had a massive shortage.

If the Democrats were screaming in January for more measures, if the EU was closing their borders and Trump was refusing to act then you'd have a case. But when almost no nation was acting the way you wanted in response to this it's hard to single out Trump.

The South Koreans seemed to be the only nation that reacted swiftly and severely and got ahead of things. Likely b/c they know better than anyone not to trust a Communist government.

And FWIW you can just about correlate the speed of response with the level of democracy and individual liberty in the country. Asian countries acted faster on average but they are on average much less democratic and place, culturally and legally, much less weight on restricting travel and movement, etc.

The US and Europe are hesitant for many reasons to lock down their populace, and so they tended to lag. Trump was in that group but he was far from alone.

As I said yes he could have seen this coming and done more, but it's unlikely any American President would act with the swiftness or severity of South Korea, and it's very unlikely he was being told to b/c apparently no other Western leader was being told to either.

[ukpumacat]

We can say he then chose wrong, but saying he knew the severity of the problem and did nothing is not the same thing. Saying he was presented with this as a risk, along with being presented information it wasn't as much of a risk, and he chose wrong, is far more accurate.


Yes, we agree on that. This is exactly what I think. He was given the info and largely ignored it. I haven't see any memos saying
the opposite of all of this, but if we assume there was even one...yes, he chose wrongly with the info provided.

But, he did more than that.

He could have listened to the different memos and info and just been wrong. Not prepare as early, etc. That would have been bad if that's all he did. But as you stated, plenty others are to blame.
But instead, he came out publicly and the other side of it. He tweeted it. He gave speeches on it. He did everything possible to publicly downplay it.
He didn't just ignore the memo, he publicly disagreed with it. And then he blamed politics for it. Dems wanted him to act and he called it "their next hoax".
And that strategy was then followed (as it always is) by Fox News. They then completely downplayed it. They ranted and raved on their shows watched by millions about how this is completely being blown out of proportion, we will be fine, zombie apocalypse, on and on.
THAT is what is egregious.
Sure, there was info on 9/11. But Bush didn't come out in between the planes hitting the towers and tell people its safe to fly and that what they are seeing is "Fake news".
This virus spreads by close contact. Trump and Fox helped spread it by telling people there was nothing to worry about when it was overtly clear to this nobody in California that there was something very real to worry about.
I didn't need to rely on memos or intel. All I had to do was watch what was happening in China, Japan, Italy, etc.

As I've said before, I am just so thankful I live in a state with a Governor who listened to the Science and closed down our state right away. That was not popular. The same week Trump said it was under control and would go away, our Governor shut down our state. Turns out, he saved thousands of lives by doing it. And more importantly, by and large Californians listened. They stayed home. They trusted the Governor. They ignored what the President of the United States had been saying and took it deadly serious.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/us/california-coronavirus-explainer/index.html

[ukpumacat]

Btw, Trump clearly thinks "being wrong" on this matters. Because he is now saying the WHO "should have known" and "were wrong" and cost thousands of lives because they were.

He's right.

[ukpumacat]

Just want to repeat something I have already posted a few times.

This Virus is not Trump's fault. He could not have stopped it. He has handled the overall crisis (after the beginning) decently (he has overall listened to the Dr's and I am thankful for that alone).

Do I believe he could have done things earlier? Absolutely
Do I think he made a bad problem worse because of his downplaying it (along with Fox News)? No doubt about it. (Thankfully in this case, he has trained many of his followers to quickly rewrite history and once he changed his tune, many of them did as well.)
Do I think there are others to blame? Absolutely (China, WHO, FDA, etc etc).
Do I think some of that blame is political? Of course it is. Trump is an expert at diverting blame. For weeks we heard that "this isn't time to play the blame game". Until they (Fox News especially) found someone else to blame (China and now the WHO). My good friend Mick thinks Trump calling it the "China Virus" was a message aimed at China. I do not. I think it was aimed exactly where it landed...on threads titled just like this one.

Will this hurt him politically? Maybe? A lot will depend on what happens in October and November. I don't think his poor response early will hurt him with most independents. Too much has happened and will happen before the election.

I will just say it this way...nothing that happens in this crisis is likely to change my vote. Or yours (Chuck) or most voters. And if I were undecided, I doubt anything that has happened would lead me to vote one way or the other.

[UKHistory]

Abdicating Federal overbite over a national crisiS is a lack of leadership. Balking at a OIG to oversee the handling of stimulus is terrible governing.

Demanding governors be appreciative of him publicly is beneath the office.

Yes I am a never Trumper because at every turn he gives me no reason to support him.

[Doc]

Chance of getting 5M (New Zealand) people to act upon government recommendation is going to be better than 327M (United States)..
I’ll take those chances every time.

Not only that but its an island (actually 2 islands) with 3 entry points, and the major population centers (Aukland, Christchurch and Queenstown) have a population of approx 1.6 million, which is considerably less than the population of NYC (8.2 million). Its not a world hub like the US, or London, or Rome,.....its an ISOLATED island. Their normal life is social distancing. Hell, I think it is their National Motto

[Doc]

Classic damned if you do, damned if you don't. You want Trump to be the bad guy who failed, there is plenty there....and if you want him to be the good guy who took it seriously, there is plenty there. Did he ignore doomsday predictions? I doubt it...he just didn't follow them because he also had information that stated the armageddon prophecies were incorrect. Makes he neither a liar or incompetent. Even Dr Fauci, somebody who many have used as the end all/be all on this has been incorrect about many issues on this virus because daily we get more information. I see this whole coronavirus situation as much like the Parvo virus outbreak that was happening back in the mid 80s-early 90s in dogs. New virus we knew nothing about. No database for information, nothing in the literature, no science, etc..... and everybody was winging it. I recall examining animals in vet school wearing biohazard suits, having to walk thru pools of bleach going into and out of rooms, etc.......and it was still a major killer of dogs. In fact it had a FAR greater mortality and morbidity rate than Coronavirus. Some vets freaked, some used logic and restraint...but bottom line it did not matter. What mattered was developing treatment which sometimes were often experimental (some helped, some didn't) and off label (since there was NO approved drugs for the treatment as its hard to have an approved treatment for a condition that does not exist), developing protocols in animal care thru trial and error, attenuation of the virus (which I expect in all viruses over time), development of natural immunity, and finally/eventually a vaccine. In the early 90's I probably saw 10-15 cases of parvo a week, now I see maybe one a year. That is in veterinary medicine, where we didn't have billions if not trillions of dollars being spent to resolve that issue. But the idea that those who did not do what you wanted were liars, or not working to defeat the disease is ludicrious. Just because somebody does not agree with your model does not make them a liar or somebody who was derelict in their job. It means they had a different opinion based on the ALL the information they had, which odds are is a whole lot, much of which is not published, as well as access to advisors on both sides (caution vs aggressive). I doubt anything was "ignored". What likely occurred is all the information at hand was considered and a decision made based on that. Because its not the decision those who dislike the president wanted, its now that he suddenly lied or ignored anything. Its he made an informed decision that at the time he felt was correct. Of course had he done something else, anything else the outrage would be the same because then it would be the other information he supposedly ignored. Either way...he was wrong to some but he isn't the only one. Those in glass houses should not cast stones which is why Biden and Sanders have both been relatively silent. It's also why Coumo has not been on his soapbox either. In essence every single person, including the experts, in hindsight, have been wrong about some aspect of the disease. Those that suggest cloistering for a year are wrong as are those who suggested we go to dinner in Chinatown or a movie in NYC.

[Doc]

Abdicating Federal overbite over a national crisiS is a lack of leadership. Balking at a OIG to oversee the handling of stimulus is terrible governing.

Demanding governors be appreciative of him publicly is beneath the office.

Yes I am a never Trumper because at every turn he gives me no reason to support him.

Disagree.... are governors incompetent dolts? Why is it it that my governor should abdicate his responsibility to decide how HIS state should address this? If he needs the federal gov't help, he can ask. FL game plan is different than NY for a reason. Its also different than South Dakotas.

You want no reason to support him which is why you will never find a reason to support him. Such is what this country is about.

[CitizenBBN]

Abdicating Federal overbite over a national crisiS is a lack of leadership.

There is federal oversight. I disagree with some aspects of it, like not tying a knot in Florida early on, but this is actually a constitutionally federal system, and Governors do have key roles to play in dealing with these kinds of events. That's how it's been done from the outset.

And, it's not even unusual. Google about Germany and how their system works. They have 13 states and each has its own health care system/process. Their version of the FDA/CDC only recommend, which is why they weren't in the way when German states began producing tests.

It's arguable we'd have been better off WITHOUT another layer of bureaucracy to go through when this started. I've linked the GQ article about the doctor in Washington who had to wait on the FDA for his test. What if he had only to go to the state board, which would probably have been more influenced that this was a crisis since they were closer to the problem?

More layers of government oversight isn't always a solution to a problem. In this case it was primarily waiting on the FDA and CDC that slowed us down. What if, like Germany, other states' Health Departments could have approved tests on their own?

Maybe one goes well, another doesn't, but we'd have had something quicker, at least possibly.

And, what works for Montana doesn't work for Florida.

I do think Trump should have been more active in pressuring some Governors to act, but I don't think we need to abandon 250 years of relatively responsive government over just this crisis.

And he has done the things the feds are tasked to do, like using the DPA to deal with companies that aren't getting it done.

[Doc]

It is always interesting that more gov't is needed until there is a problem, then its the lawyers. I don't recall if it was here or on facebook where somebody posted a prediction that in the not too distant future you will see law firm adds for class action suits for those who took chloroquinolone and now have any of a wide variety of conditions. Of course there is no approved treatment for a novel disease so any treatment for it is off label and thus subject to future legal action. For me, death now vs potential complication in the future....give me potential complication.

Did the federal gov't delay testing? ABSOLUTELY because FDA regulations are such that they have to approve thru red tape, trials, etc...... People complain about a testing delay AND that the Federal gov't abdicated it responsibility are speaking out of both sides of their mouth (IMO). Personally I have always been in favor of more to the states, less to the federal. Imagine if FL had been able to forego efficacy trials, or been allowed to use a foreign test, how much quicker we could have been testing? What needs to be done in NYC is far different than what needs to be done in Montana. Let Cuomo and DeBlasio handle NY and let DeSantis handle FL! And when you have 50 potential state "trial and error" situations going on compared to 1 federal mandated approach you have 49 additional opportunities to get a better approach.

[dan_bgblue]

EU softened criticism on Chinese disinformation over fear of 'repercussions,' according to reports (https://www.foxnews.com/world/softened-criticism-on-chinese-disinformation)