Home defense shotgun

[KeithKSR]

I’m leaning toward adding a home defense, aka security, shotgun to the arsenal. My options are to build my own, or to purchase one already assembled.

I can purchase either a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 used for the $150-$200 range, a Remington Wingmaster usually runs a little more. I can score a security barrel for either for around a $100. I already have an ATI pistol grip stock and matching forearm that I bought that will fit either Remington or Mossberg. Cool added tactical stuff can be added an item at a time as I want. Initial investment would be around $300.

Looking around I am seeing security shotguns with either 18.5” or 20” barrels at some pretty good prices. The Savage/Stevens 320, which as near as I can tell is a ChiCom Winchester 1300, runs $230-$270. The Remington 870 and either Mossberg 500 or 590 seem to be running in the $360-$380 range. The Mossberg Maverick 88 checks in at $199. Stoeger and Winchester also have offerings that are going to fall in the Maverick-Savage/Stevens price range, I assume both of those are also going to be Foreign manufactured. Edit: the Winchester SXP is made in Turkey.

The advantage to a finished home defense shotgun is that it is obviously finished out of the box, most come with higher capacity tube mags generally somewhere in the +2 range of a field grade shotgun.

The foreign made guns are getting pretty good reviews and seem every bit as good as the reviews for their new American made counterparts. The disadvantage to the ChiComs is that aftermarket goodies aren’t as plentiful and extras purchased may need to be adapted to make them work.

The big advantage to buying a used field gun and doing my own build is that I can pick and choose what specific components I want to add. There isn’t a cost savings by building that is significant, in fact it could end up being more. A second advantage is that it may be easier to find a used field gun over the next few months than it will be to find the off the shelf security shotguns. The COVID19 pandemic has apparently caused a run on any kind of defense firearms and stock will need to be replenished. I could run into the same issue when looking for a used field gun, I haven’t checked out the usual pawn shops yet. A third advantage would be that it can double as an extra field shotgun if I want to use it that way.

Thoughts?

[Darrell KSR]

Interested in following what you end up with, Keith. I'm more interested in ones you might buy since I'm not the do-it-yourself guy, and would rather have it made for me, even if not as flexible as a DIY version would obviously be. But appreciate you throwing out the options there for both.

And what do you think about the Mossberg Shockwave? Similar to what you are proposing to do, totally different?

[dan_bgblue]

Mossberg 930 SPX Security 18 1/2 inch barrel and pistol grip, chambered for 3 inch shells is a bad boy. It is priced a good bit above your price point, but is a semi auto instead of a pump. Nothing wrong with a pump but I can empty the 7 shot magazine out of the 930 in at most 1/2 the time it takes to do the same out of the 500 series. 500 series are great guns if you want the pump and when I was buying I wanted the SA instead.

My magazine stays loaded with an alternate load of double X then a slug then a double X again.

[kingcat]

I've been considering a low priced scatter gun purchase for home security myself.

My stringent requirements require something loud to act as a deterrent, and not likely to explode in my face.

[KeithKSR]

And what do you think about the Mossberg Shockwave? Similar to what you are proposing to do, totally different?

The Shockwave is a Mossberg 590 with a 14” barrel and a pistol grip instead of a stock. I really wanted something shoulder fired, so hadn’t really considered that option. The Mossberg 590 currently is the shotgun of choice for the military in its M590A1 version. Hickock45 on YouTube has a nice review of the Shockwave. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxECBq-f68s

[KeithKSR]

Mossberg 930 SPX Security 18 1/2 inch barrel and pistol grip, chambered for 3 inch shells is a bad boy. It is priced a good bit above your price point, but is a semi auto instead of a pump. Nothing wrong with a pump but I can empty the 7 shot magazine out of the 930 in at most 1/2 the time it takes to do the same out of the 500 series. 500 series are great guns if you want the pump and when I was buying I wanted the SA instead.

My magazine stays loaded with an alternate load of double X then a slug then a double X again.

I’ve considered a semiautomatic as a security shotgun. The $700 price tag is one drawback for the 930. Charles Daly does have a semiautomatic I would consider and it is in the price range I would like to get one in. Now, if I ran onto the right deal on a good semiautomatic my current Remington 870 field gun would become the sacrificial home defense shotgun.

[CitizenBBN]

I think I sold my last one but I may pick one up: Winchester 1897. Series E (has a tube ejector versus having to cycle the rounds to unload).

Why? I'ts dog reliable as a pump, and it can be slam fired. You pump it the first time and after that if you hold down the trigger every time it pumps it fires. I'd cut down the barrel to minimum length for the law and the tube.

I also sold off a Saiga 12 Ga AK-47. I may get one again, they aren't stupid expensive. They also have a knock off in 410 that I like as long as I can get a 10 round mag for it. 410 self defense loads are the bomb. not as massive as the 12 ga with 00 buck, but very controllable and plenty enough to do the job.

If I was staying traditional I'm thinking pump, and you can't go wrong with the 500 or the 870. Both very reliable and lots of customization options. 500 is a bit easier to break down IMO.

Frankly I'd go with a 20ga for home defense if it was a 500 or 870. Plenty of power with defense loads and a little less over penetration and more control.

Also consider if you shoot a gun inside your house at night you'll be blind and deaf immediately. Personally I'd rather be deafened by a 410 than a 12 ga in a closed space.

Honestly for all that it's why I like the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor. 5 rounds so you're about even with a shotgun, and the 410 with defense loads can do a lot, and you have all the freedom of movement of a pistol.

[kingcat]

I hunted with a 1930's 410 iver Johnson handed down from my great grandfather growing up. My nephew has it now.

It was known as shooting as true as any 410 from the day. A great squirrel gun and effective bird shot butt burner for hides hiding in tall trees.

My Dad loaned to a good friend in the nineties who let his son use it on his first rabbit hunt. As he was climbing a fence he stuck the barrel in the soft dirt....later, well, you can guess. Now its a very short barrel.

[KeithKSR]

I think I sold my last one but I may pick one up: Winchester 1897. Series E (has a tube ejector versus having to cycle the rounds to unload).

Why? I'ts dog reliable as a pump, and it can be slam fired. You pump it the first time and after that if you hold down the trigger every time it pumps it fires. I'd cut down the barrel to minimum length for the law and the tube.

I also sold off a Saiga 12 Ga AK-47. I may get one again, they aren't stupid expensive. They also have a knock off in 410 that I like as long as I can get a 10 round mag for it. 410 self defense loads are the bomb. not as massive as the 12 ga with 00 buck, but very controllable and plenty enough to do the job.

If I was staying traditional I'm thinking pump, and you can't go wrong with the 500 or the 870. Both very reliable and lots of customization options. 500 is a bit easier to break down IMO.

Frankly I'd go with a 20ga for home defense if it was a 500 or 870. Plenty of power with defense loads and a little less over penetration and more control.

Also consider if you shoot a gun inside your house at night you'll be blind and deaf immediately. Personally I'd rather be deafened by a 410 than a 12 ga in a closed space.

Honestly for all that it's why I like the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor. 5 rounds so you're about even with a shotgun, and the 410 with defense loads can do a lot, and you have all the freedom of movement of a pistol.

The biggest problem with .410 is ammo cost and availability. I didn’t realize availability was an issue until I bought my daughter one of those Rossi .22/.410 dual barrel outfits. In my area shells ar $15+ a box and there is no variety.

I wouldn’t mind going 20 gauge, but security barrels are nearly impossible to source. That means finding a 20 gauge without a vented rib so it can be cut down. It’s hard to find these without vent ribs these days.

[blueboss]

The first line of defense is an alarm system. If that goes off then...

I keep a .38 close by with alternate rounds of hollow points and wad cutters.

The next closest line of defense is an 870 Remington 20ga. Field gun with the plug out that I can shoot from the hip pretty well.


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[KeithKSR]

The first line of defense is an alarm system. If that goes off then...

I keep a .38 close by with alternate rounds of hollow points and wad cutters.

The next closest line of defense is an 870 Remington 20ga. Field gun with the plug out that I can shoot from the hip pretty well.


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I really don’t need the home defense shotgun as much as want one. I’ve got plenty of firepower, but my current shotguns are primarily full choke and I want something a bit shorter that can also shoot slugs.

[Darrell KSR]

Honestly for all that it's why I like the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor. 5 rounds so you're about even with a shotgun, and the 410 with defense loads can do a lot, and you have all the freedom of movement of a pistol.

Those have a lot of merit, as we've discussed too. I like the 410 defense loads as well.

[Darrell KSR]

The Shockwave is a Mossberg 590 with a 14” barrel and a pistol grip instead of a stock. I really wanted something shoulder fired, so hadn’t really considered that option. The Mossberg 590 currently is the shotgun of choice for the military in its M590A1 version. Hickock45 on YouTube has a nice review of the Shockwave. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxECBq-f68sLove Hickok 45. Bought a Walther Creed at least 50% because of an outstanding video he had on it.

Edit... By the way, he's not wrong on the Creed. Great quality, great feel, fantastic price.

[KeithKSR]

Love Hickok 45. Bought a Walther Creed at least 50% because of an outstanding video he had on it.

Edit... By the way, he's not wrong on the Creed. Great quality, great feel, fantastic price.

He’s knowledgeable and entertaining, plus he seems pretty straightforward on his assessments.

[CitizenBBN]

I tried to build his shooting range in my downtown backyard. Boy were my neighbors pissed. The ones that lived at least.

[KeithKSR]

I tried to build his shooting range in my downtown backyard. Boy were my neighbors pissed. The ones that lived at least.

His range is enviable, to say the least. I’d just like to have his endless ammo supply.

[suncat05]

Not a fan of that type of shotgun. Don't like the grip at all, and really do not like the hand strap under the slide grip.
But that is just me. My preference.
I prefer a standard stock on my shotgun. It allows for better control, no matter how you shoot. I also really like a semi-auto shotgun, a lot. But using one of those requires a little more training and practice to be able to handle it with proficiency.
I have .410's for my wife & daughter for the house, and a 12 gauge shotgun, Remington 870 riot gun for myself.
Can't go wrong with a shotgun for home defense. Period.

[KeithKSR]

Not a fan of that type of shotgun. Don't like the grip at all, and really do not like the hand strap under the slide grip.
But that is just me. My preference.
I prefer a standard stock on my shotgun. It allows for better control, no matter how you shoot. I also really like a semi-auto shotgun, a lot. But using one of those requires a little more training and practice to be able to handle it with proficiency.
I have .410's for my wife & daughter for the house, and a 12 gauge shotgun, Remington 870 riot gun for myself.
Can't go wrong with a shotgun for home defense. Period.


That’s the issues I have with both the Shockwave and Remington’s version, the Tac-14.

Charles Daly does sell a version of a home defense shotgun in semiautomatic that has a really good price on it. They can’t ship now, but this is something I’d consider when the Covid19 stuff is over and they are back to business as usual.

https://www.charlesdaly.com/product.php?id=602

[suncat05]

At that price, very nice. I think I would go with a mag extension though. From 5 to 7-8 rounds available is preferable.

[kingcat]

I do have a Savage 340B and some ammo here my son used for deer when he was a hunter.

[KeithKSR]

At that price, very nice. I think I would go with a mag extension though. From 5 to 7-8 rounds available is preferable.

It looks like a factory +1 is available. https://www.charlesdaly.com/accessory.php?id=121

[dan_bgblue]

That’s the issues I have with both the Shockwave and Remington’s version, the Tac-14.

Charles Daly does sell a version of a home defense shotgun in semiautomatic that has a really good price on it. They can’t ship now, but this is something I’d consider when the Covid19 stuff is over and they are back to business as usual.

https://www.charlesdaly.com/product.php?id=602

Buds has them for the same price but they are sold out

[KeithKSR]

Buds has them for the same price but they are sold out

Sportsman’s Warehouse sells them for $249.99, but they are sold out as well.

I sold one of my handguns to my daughter and her husband and put back the money for a S&W M&P 2.0 compact In 9 mm and hadn’t had a chance to go to Lexington to pick one up at Bud’s. Last weekend I went back on their website and prices had jumped $75 and they were sold out. They did have them for around $450 a few weeks ago and the newer price was about $525. I figure at $525 I’d just go with a Gen 4 Glock 19, well those were sold out as well. I knew there was a big run on TP, I didn’t realize they had a run on just about any defensive firearm.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Sportsman’s Warehouse sells them for $249.99, but they are sold out as well.

I sold one of my handguns to my daughter and her husband and put back the money for a S&W M&P 2.0 compact In 9 mm and hadn’t had a chance to go to Lexington to pick one up at Bud’s. Last weekend I went back on their website and prices had jumped $75 and they were sold out. They did have them for around $450 a few weeks ago and the newer price was about $525. I figure at $525 I’d just go with a Gen 4 Glock 19, well those were sold out as well. I knew there was a big run on TP, I didn’t realize they had a run on just about any defensive firearm.Palmetto is coming out with a 9mm. Supposed to be a nice gun at a good price.

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[KeithKSR]

Palmetto is coming out with a 9mm. Supposed to be a nice gun at a good price.

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When I checked them late in the winter their New 9 mm was scheduled to debut about now. Like everything else it has been delayed. It is supposed to be a $200 Glock 19 gen 3 clone.

[KeithKSR]

I thought I’d post this here, Hickock45 on the weapons a common person might have had at the time of the 1918 pandemic. It fits this thread because one of the choices was a Model 12 Winchester pump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uawniD-Af9o

[CitizenBBN]

The Model 12 is a great gun as well. It was the new model to replace the 1897. It's an outstanding gun, much better parts quality than modern guns as most companies (notably Winchester) stopped using forged and milled parts in 1964. That's why the pre-64 Winchester 30/30s command a premium as well.

There are a number of design differences between the two guns, but the biggest functional change is the internal hammer. But it's the external hammer that lets the 1897 be slam fired.

Honestly the Model 12 is a better built gun simply b/c the technology to make and machine better parts etc. had improved, but the 1897 is still highly reliable and a bit more tolerant of dirt etc., and the slam firing makes it unique among shotgun options. (Almost unique, I think there are 1-2 others out there that can)

And if you can't tell, I do tend to like the older guns. On average they are better made, you just have to know enough or know someone who knows enough to assess condition.

My SHTF guns are Russian, esp. the SKS, b/c they are nearly indestructible and easy to maintain. Go to shotguns are older models or something really simple like the Mossberg 500 (parts are ubiquitous and much more tolerant than the technically superior but more finicky Browning designs), and my absolute backup handguns are revolvers again b/c they are stupidly reliable, will work with any ammo for their caliber without complaint, and are easy to work on and repair. S&W revolvers are so common the parts are readily available.

Anyway, that's my .02, which is worth .02. KISS principle. At 3am with someone coming in my house I want dead dog reliable and simple. That's going to be simple pump shotguns and revolvers. Now for firepower I might go with a semiauto pistol but it's going to be one that is absolutely proven.

OT but I want to try the new Sig the military is adopting. That looks extremely promising as a very reliable SA.

[dan_bgblue]

CBBN, what is the difference, if any, in the TULA type and the Norinco Russian SKS weapons?

Thanks

[KeithKSR]

CBBN, what is the difference, if any, in the TULA type and the Norinco Russian SKS weapons?

Thanks

The Norinco is a Chinese SKS. The Tula factory produced SKS rifles in Russia.

My SKS is a Norinco and is rock solid. The Russian rifles are supposed to be better.

[dan_bgblue]

Thanks.

I priced them today and was a bit shocked. Back when they were first showing up, in the original box packed in cosmolene, with a bayonet, and a cleaning kit, here in the late 80s or early 90s I could have bought all of them I wanted for 90 bucks apiece and bought 1,000 round ammo cans for 75 dollars. I bought neither and am now a bit sorry I did not.

[KeithKSR]

Thanks.

I priced them today and was a bit shocked. Back when they were first showing up, in the original box packed in cosmolene, with a bayonet, and a cleaning kit, here in the late 80s or early 90s I could have bought all of them I wanted for 90 bucks apiece and bought 1,000 round ammo cans for 75 dollars. I bought neither and am now a bit sorry I did not.

My sister bought mine for my nephew in the mid 90s for less than a $100. I bought it from him a few years later for $150. I’ve seen them for $300-$350 pretty consistently the last ten years. $350 is probably a decent price for the rifle, they are decent shooters and ammo can still be had for a reasonable price. I found a new synthetic Monte Carlo stock for mine at a gun show for around $40 several years ago and I like it on that format.

I like the 7.62x39 round. It’s a nice round for varmints with enough punch to take down a deer. It’s still cheaper to shoot than my AR. A gun range in a neighboring county sells ARs built for the round for around the $400 price.

[CitizenBBN]

If you're wanting one just let me know Dan. I'm about to sell several.

As Keith said, "Norinco" is an export name the Chinese gave their SKS rifles. the thing is they were actually made at multiple factories with variations in materials and construction. Some receiver housings are milled, some are stamped, etc. There are ways to identify them. Certain factories are considered better than others.

Also there are two barrel lengths, standard and the shorter "paratrooper" model, which has nothing to do with paratroopers. Also there is an SKS-D and a SKS-M both of which were factory made to take AK magazines instead of the built in 10 round SKS mag.

Honestly the Norinco/Chinese/ChiCom rifles are really good, mostly b/c the SKS design, like the AK, was specifically for countries with limited manufacturing and machining to be able to make a still reliable weapon. They did it well.

Above the Chinese versions are the Russians, but also the Yugoslavian, Romanian, and at the top of the list the Albanian guns. the last is as much for collectability as quality as they are just more rare.

My biggest strength is probably with Soviet/Communist weapons. Frankly they were the best margins when I was dealing in them, so I focused on those. Yes when the Chinese hit the market with the SKS they were about $90 in the box. Now they run $400+.

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, as for 7.62 ammo in normal times in bulk it's $.21 per round or less, but now is running near 30c and up. I have a good internet source for spam cans of 700 rounds if that's what you're looking for, but they may be out right now.

[KeithKSR]

Oh, as for 7.62 ammo in normal times in bulk it's $.21 per round or less, but now is running near 30c and up. I have a good internet source for spam cans of 700 rounds if that's what you're looking for, but they may be out right now.

I think I paid like $3.50 or $3.75 for the last 20 round boxes of 7.62x39 I bought. They were Tula or Wolf. That may have been a couple of years ago. Since 2016 most of my ammo purchases have been .223/5.56. I bought a couple of 20 round boxes of .223/5.56 Tula for $3.99/box three weeks ago at Rural King. They currently have .223/5.56 Aguila advertised for $15.99/50 rd box. I wish I had an excuse to make the trip to Rurak ?King to get a couple of boxes, but haven’t made it there. Their sale ends tomorrow. That’s also about what I’ve paid for the 50 round boxes of Remington I have stashed.

[KeithKSR]

My biggest strength is probably with Soviet/Communist weapons. Frankly they were the best margins when I was dealing in them, so I focused on those. Yes when the Chinese hit the market with the SKS they were about $90 in the box. Now they run $400+.

$400 only sounds like a lot for these rifles because of the former Sub $100 price tags. Several years ago my son-in-law borrowed my now late BIL’s 740 Remington Woodmaster to use for deer season. My SKS easily outshot it using some cheap unbranded ammo I had bought for $1.99 a box.

[KentuckyWildcat]

When I checked them late in the winter their New 9 mm was scheduled to debut about now. Like everything else it has been delayed. It is supposed to be a $200 Glock 19 gen 3 clone.I intend on getting one at some point. Probably the last gun I buy for a while. IIRC it has a rail and threaded barrel option. I want something with a light to carry in the woods at night.

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[KentuckyWildcat]

It isn't the cheap stuff for 7.62x39. But I paired the Hornady black with the Palmetto KS47 and love the results. I bought this mainly to coyote hunt. So far the gun is better than I am at calling.

I shot a 3/4 inch group at 100 yards. And my brother just over an inch. Neither of us are great shots.

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[KeithKSR]

It isn't the cheap stuff for 7.62x39. But I paired the Hornady black with the Palmetto KS47 and love the results. I bought this mainly to coyote hunt. So far the gun is better than I am at calling.

I shot a 3/4 inch group at 100 yards. And my brother just over an inch. Neither of us are great shots.

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You should get plenty of opportunities to nail a coyote. They have gotten thick.

[CitizenBBN]

You don't really need a gun for a coyote. A hammer may suffice as thick as they've become. same for hogs.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I've killed a few over the years, just walking out of the house at the right time with a rifle or just seeing them at night. But have had a guy hunting them the last few years for me, but he has fallen on hard times and sold pretty much everything. So I'm trying to learn how to call them now. That is more difficult than I expected. But now that mating season is over, maybe they will start responding better.

[suncat05]

An injured rabbit call works really well. Also, an injured deer or calf call brings them in too.I
They are very brazen down here in south Florida. I have caught them setting up near my house so that when I walk my dogs they'll have a chance to snatch one of them.
So I never leave home without my gun.

[KeithKSR]

An injured rabbit call works really well. Also, an injured deer or calf call brings them in too.I
They are very brazen down here in south Florida. I have caught them setting up near my house so that when I walk my dogs they'll have a chance to snatch one of them.
So I never leave home without my gun.

We had two small dogs, 10 lb range, that found a deer to chow on in the woods near the house back 6 or 7 years ago. At least I think it was a deer. They’d head over into the woods and come back stuffed. One evening they left and never returned. I’m fairly confident that coyotes got them. They’ll learn routines and know when to strike.

[suncat05]

We had two small dogs, 10 lb range, that found a deer to chow on in the woods near the house back 6 or 7 years ago. At least I think it was a deer. They’d head over into the woods and come back stuffed. One evenin Jig they left and never returned. I’m fairly confident that coyotes got them. They’ll learn routines and know when to strike.

Yes, coyotes are very intelligent. And their eyesight is excellent. Just overall a very wiley adversary (no pun intended to any "Road Runner" cartoon fans, of which I am one!). But they are true predators, so you have to respect them as such.

[bigsky]

Mossbergs lower lines seem flimsy to me. I do like the Rem 870. I particularly like the 870 marine. But it is An expensive stainless steel tank.

[KeithKSR]

Mossbergs lower lines seem flimsy to me. I do like the Rem 870. I particularly like the 870 marine. But it is An expensive stainless steel tank.

If I go Mossberg I’ll probably go 590. I’ve owned both the Mossberg 500 and Remington 870; the Mossberg to me is probably the superior of the two. I like that the 870 can easily have the magazine tube extended, but the Mossberg has a much smoother action and has the better extraction/ejection system. The 870 ejectors tend to be prone to failure. Both are good pump action guns, overall, and overall are reliable. I inherited my late FIL’s Springfield 67, which is a rebadged Savage/Stevens, it isn’t as good as either the 500 or the 870.

The H&R Pardner Pump is the Maverick equivalent to the 870, except that the Maverick is assembled in the US and the Pardner is imported.

[bigsky]

590 is the right Mossberg.

[KeithKSR]

590 is the right Mossberg.

The 590A1 is even beefier than the 590. It is the military version of the 590, with heavier barrel, heat shroud, and other parts that are built for more extreme conditions.

[Catfan73]

https://revolverguy.com/1986-fbi-miami-gunfight-anniversary/#more-7942

Interesting article on the gunfight 34 years ago that led to law enforcement switching away from revolvers to semi automatic handguns.

[KeithKSR]

https://revolverguy.com/1986-fbi-miami-gunfight-anniversary/#more-7942

Interesting article on the gunfight 34 years ago that led to law enforcement switching away from revolvers to semi automatic handguns.

It has always puzzled me why law enforcement was so slow to accept semiautomatic handguns.

[CitizenBBN]

It has always puzzled me why law enforcement was so slow to accept semiautomatic handguns.

The biggest legitimate reason is that revolvers are inherently more reliable. Modern pistols are excellent, but revolvers are still more reliable.

Revolvers cannot stovepipe or jam on the load, there's no mag spring to weaken, no way to accidentally hit the mag eject and let it drop loose, etc.

it's now down to a very small percentage difference due to improvements in pistols, but 30+ years ago that difference was bigger.

Second, revolvers are safer in general for accidental discharges. Now, if you have a hammer revolver and you cock it back then all bets are off, you are now equal to a chambered pistol, but otherwise the long full draw on a revolver makes it nearly impossible to discharge accidentally, which is why to this day revolvers have no safety switches.

Many carry pistols have gone with this same ideology and have long double action type draws for the same reason.

Third, the savings in width from pistols isn't as valuable if you carry with a holster.


Now, that all being said, the US military moved to the 1911 back in, er, 1911 (army first, the others in a couple of years), and never looked back, and they love reliability and safety too.

IMO the reason for that difference is that police weren't about shooting the guy coming over the hill. Prior to the 1970s/1980s I doubt many police departments wanted to think in terms of firepower and being able to engage an "enemy" in a firefight. That wasn't their role or goal.

After all, the main reason to use a pistol is on average they hold more rounds. That's useful for an army, but may not be the right mentality for law enforcement.

That's my .02 on why they were slow to change. Doesn't help that there have been any number of pistols made, even sold in large numbers, that are not as reliable as they should be.

[KeithKSR]

CBBN, I think the a big factor was ammo. Law enforcement seemed to have avoided the .45 round, because it was too large. They avoided the 9mm because they thought it was too wimpy. LEOs were very much married to the .38 and .357 rounds. What was odd here is that the military adopted both the .45 and then the 9mm in a span of time when LEOs were primarily sticking to the .38/.357 platform.

One reason I think ammo was a big factor is timing. The move to semiautomatics by law enforcement didn’t begin in earnest until the development of the .40 S&W round. When the .40 S&W was introduced it seemed like LEOs went to it in a big way and in a hurry. The .40 was also a happy middle ground for LEOs between the .45 and the 9 mm.

There is a lot to like about the .40, but the one place the 9mm trumps it is in ammo pricing. $12 for a box of 50 rounds for range ammo is a lot more appealing to the masses.

[CitizenBBN]

Fair point. And there were attempts at a .38 equivalent rimless cartridge, notably the 38 ACP and its more popular successor the 38 super, but none of them caught on.

I'd still argue that it was, up to a point, a lack of need. Need changes people's mind and clearly there wasn't a lot of desire to have high capacity or we would have seen more switching sooner.

that's only up to the 1970s though bc I think that's when the turning point was coming. You saw more carrying speed loads, and that to me was a sign they were looking for more firepower.

[KeithKSR]

I'd still argue that it was, up to a point, a lack of need. Need changes people's mind and clearly there wasn't a lot of desire to have high capacity or we would have seen more switching sooner.

that's only up to the 1970s though bc I think that's when the turning point was coming. You saw more carrying speed loads, and that to me was a sign they were looking for more firepower.

I don’t know if it was a need for more firepower or a desire. At any rate semiautomatic pistols really seemed to take off with the double stack magazine .40 cal.

[dan_bgblue]

Just in case you were thinking of purchasing one of these, I had sent an email to Palmetto State Armory earlier last week asking about their 9mm Glock clone and received this response in my mail this morning.

We do not have any authorized dealers in KY. In addition, the DAGR has not been released for public sale and we have regrettably had to push back the release date for the time being due to the Covid-19 crisis. At this time we have not set a new date for release.

Thanks for your inquiry,

[dan_bgblue]

I am also tracking resupply of inventory of the Charles Daly 12 Ga semi auto at Sportsmans Warehouse. I will post when I am notified of new stocking of this weapon. I wish it did not have to be shipped from Turkey. It may not be coming from there, but I do know that some if not all of their consumer arms are manufactured there.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Just in case you were thinking of purchasing one of these, I had sent an email to Palmetto State Armory earlier last week asking about their 9mm Glock clone and received this response in my mail this morning.

We do not have any authorized dealers in KY. In addition, the DAGR has not been released for public sale and we have regrettably had to push back the release date for the time being due to the Covid-19 crisis. At this time we have not set a new date for release.

Thanks for your inquiry,

Thanks Dan. It is certainly on my list of wants. But thankfully not anytime soon. Hopefully it can be a Christmas present.

I need to get two ARs finished, and maybe buy two scopes first. At least one scope.

[CitizenBBN]

Just in case you were thinking of purchasing one of these, I had sent an email to Palmetto State Armory earlier last week asking about their 9mm Glock clone and received this response in my mail this morning.

We do not have any authorized dealers in KY. In addition, the DAGR has not been released for public sale and we have regrettably had to push back the release date for the time being due to the Covid-19 crisis. At this time we have not set a new date for release.

Thanks for your inquiry,

Dan, when you hear they are shipping let me know and I can probably get one as a dealer for you. I can go through national distributors, I have accounts with 3-4 of them.

[dan_bgblue]

That would be terrific. Thanks for offering to do that.

[KeithKSR]

I am also tracking resupply of inventory of the Charles Daly 12 Ga semi auto at Sportsmans Warehouse. I will post when I am notified of new stocking of this weapon. I wish it did not have to be shipped from Turkey. It may not be coming from there, but I do know that some if not all of their consumer arms are manufactured there.

I’m also supposed to get an email when the Charles Daly is back on stock.

The price of the S&W M&P 2.0 compact is back on stock at Buds. I took a screenshot of it at $427 on the 9th. I wanted to wait until I got my taxes finished before going ahead with the purchase and did them last week. On Thursday I went back on Buds to make sure it was still in stock at their Lexington store and the price jumped back up to $529. Evidently they jacked up their prices when the stimulus checks hit bank accounts and spurred another buying spree. The odd thing is the price on the M&P Shield the wife wants has remained unchanged.

Lots of first time firearms purchasers have made purchases since the pandemic began.

[KeithKSR]

Just in case you were thinking of purchasing one of these, I had sent an email to Palmetto State Armory earlier last week asking about their 9mm Glock clone and received this response in my mail this morning.

We do not have any authorized dealers in KY. In addition, the DAGR has not been released for public sale and we have regrettably had to push back the release date for the time being due to the Covid-19 crisis. At this time we have not set a new date for release.

Thanks for your inquiry,

Thanks for the info, Dan. Those may not be ready until sometime this summer. Initially they were to hit the market this month, then I saw an updated May 15th date after the pandemic hit. I’ve seen two different potential prices. One was $199, the other was $299. If it is close to the Gen 3 Glock 19 that is a good price, the Gen 3 was $499 before the pandemic and now isn’t to be found anywhere.

[Darrell KSR]

Just in case you were thinking of purchasing one of these, I had sent an email to Palmetto State Armory earlier last week asking about their 9mm Glock clone and received this response in my mail this morning.

We do not have any authorized dealers in KY. In addition, the DAGR has not been released for public sale and we have regrettably had to push back the release date for the time being due to the Covid-19 crisis. At this time we have not set a new date for release.

Thanks for your inquiry,That looks like something I'd like.

I wanted a Glock 19, but wasn't willing to spend the dollars for it. I ended up with a Walther Creed at half the price, and ecstatic with the choice. But I might be interested in another if it were a 19 clone at a great price.

[KeithKSR]

That looks like something I'd like.

I wanted a Glock 19, but wasn't willing to spend the dollars for it. I ended up with a Walther Creed at half the price, and ecstatic with the choice. But I might be interested in another if it were a 19 clone at a great price.

Here is an article I read back a few months ago on the PS9. http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2020/01/22/palmetto-state-armory-ps9-dagger/

One big selling point I see is that it has the cutout under the trigger guard that a lot of Glock fans have done to make the Glock more comfortable. It also comes with metal sights, another popular Glock swap out.

[suncat05]

I have not had a chance to handle one of these yet, but it certainly appears functional, with some nice features to it.
Of course, putting rounds downrange is the real test.
I like what I see, but I'd have to actually hold one and shoot it to decide if I'd buy one.

[dan_bgblue]

I like what I see, but I'd have to actually hold one and shoot it to decide if I'd buy one.

That is exactly what I told the folks at Palmetto State Armory when I asked them if they had a dealer in KY. I do not think it is worth a drive to South Carolina to make a purchase

[KentuckyWildcat]

That is exactly what I told the folks at Palmetto State Armory when I asked them if they had a dealer in KY. I do not think it is worth a drive to South Carolina to make a purchase

I have every intention of ordering one sooner or later. No clue when. But when I do, you are welcome to come try it. I am in Bowling Green some and if you are ever near Muhlenberg or Christian you are welcome to stop by.

[dan_bgblue]

That is a very kind offer, or I may just ask for your product review and decide from that.

[Darrell KSR]

Here is an article I read back a few months ago on the PS9. http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2020/01/22/palmetto-state-armory-ps9-dagger/

One big selling point I see is that it has the cutout under the trigger guard that a lot of Glock fans have done to make the Glock more comfortable. It also comes with metal sights, another popular Glock swap out.

Good article and appreciate the photos of it.

[DanISSELisdaman]

I have an 11-87 Super-mag Special Purpose that doubles as a turkey gun and home defense weapon. Believe me nobody wants to be on the receiving end of a 3 1/2 in. load from that bad boy.It's by far the best shotgun I have ever owned.

[dan_bgblue]

I just want it for self protection, I do not want it to blow out the window glass all over the house when I fire it off inside a closed up house.

[KeithKSR]

I just want it for self protection, I do not want it to blow out the window glass all over the house when I fire it off inside a closed up house.

A 2 3/4” load suits me fine for home defense.

[KeithKSR]

I picked up a Glock 19 Gen 4 at Rural King at the pre-pandemic $499 price tag. It was among a group of about four or five pistols in that 9mm, 4 inch barrel, and 15 round capacity group I had narrowed things down to. I could have gone with one of my other choices for around that $450-$475 price range, but when I considered the extra mag the Glock comes with and the speed loader it became the better buy. $30-$40 to buy a third magazine and $12-$15 for a speed loader would have put some of the other choices at the price of the Glock or higher.

I still am on the hunt for the home defense shotgun. With the prices of the off the rack shotguns being what they are I think I can buy one much more economically than I can buy a used pump action and build one. Another hindrance is the unavailability of used pump action Mossberg and Remington shot guns. The only used shotguns I have found are single barrels of various manufacturers made on the 30s and 40s or earlier.

[Darrell KSR]

I picked up a Glock 19 Gen 4 at Rural King at the pre-pandemic $499 price tag. It was among a group of about four or five pistols in that 9mm, 4 inch barrel, and 15 round capacity group I had narrowed things down to. I could have gone with one of my other choices for around that $450-$475 price range, but when I considered the extra mag the Glock comes with and the speed loader it became the better buy. $30-$40 to buy a third magazine and $12-$15 for a speed loader would have put some of the other choices at the price of the Glock or higher.

I still am on the hunt for the home defense shotgun. With the prices of the off the rack shotguns being what they are I think I can buy one much more economically than I can buy a used pump action and build one. Another hindrance is the unavailability of used pump action Mossberg and Remington shot guns. The only used shotguns I have found are single barrels of various manufacturers made on the 30s and 40s or earlier.Everybody needs a G19.

[dan_bgblue]

Everybody needs a G19.

If I can get lucky and snag the PSA glock G19 clone I can save about 200.00 and still have what I want. May not be able to get lucky though

[Darrell KSR]

If I can get lucky and snag the PSA glock G19 clone I can save about 200.00 and still have what I want. May not be able to get lucky thoughDan, I ended up with the Walther Creed, and I'm very content with it. Beyond content, very happy in fact. It is substituting for a niche I thought I needed (higher capacity reliable 9mm. I have a nice S&W 39-2 9mm, but single stack 8 shot mags).

But if they had the PSA Glock clone then that's likely what I would have ended up with. I am looking forward to some of you getting it and letting me know what I'm missing.

[dan_bgblue]

:trink40:

Amazing what one can find just prowling around the net.

II can get a brand new Barrett .50 cal with built in tripod for $8,499.00 and that includes a 25X50 scope. Includes the standard 10 round clip. I just need an additional $7,000.00 in stimulus money.

It is a absolutely beautiful weapon.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/5/1/5165491830-barrett-model-82a1-rifle.jpg

[Darrell KSR]

Dan, can you get extended round magazines for that?

Maybe we can all chip in and get a KSR one we can share.

[dan_bgblue]

50 round drum mags are available. Only way to make this work is for everybody to get together and I shoot once, you shoot once, and on down the line. You shoot that thing more than once a day and it is gonna hurt.

[KeithKSR]

If I can get lucky and snag the PSA glock G19 clone I can save about 200.00 and still have what I want. May not be able to get lucky though

A big factor for me is availability of a lot of less expensive aftermarket goodies. If the PSA clone can use the most of the a Glock stuff they may have trouble keeping them in stock.

The Ruger PC Carbine uses Glock mags, and I can see other companies picking up on the use of Glock mags in the future. Patents have expired through Gen 3 and lots of companies are churning out magazines.

[KeithKSR]

50 round drum mags are available. Only way to make this work is for everybody to get together and I shoot once, you shoot once, and on down the line. You shoot that thing more than once a day and it is gonna hurt.

I can’t imagine what kind of pain the shooter’s shoulder would be in after emptying a drum out of that .50 cal.

[DanISSELisdaman]

:trink40:

Amazing what one can find just prowling around the net.

II can get a brand new Barrett .50 cal with built in tripod for $8,499.00 and that includes a 25X50 scope. Includes the standard 10 round clip. I just need an additional $7,000.00 in stimulus money.

It is a absolutely beautiful weapon.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/5/1/5165491830-barrett-model-82a1-rifle.jpg

That one might blow the glass out of your house too Dan! :friendly_wink:

[dan_bgblue]

That one might blow the glass out of your house too Dan! :friendly_wink:

LOL

[dan_bgblue]

A big factor for me is availability of a lot of less expensive aftermarket goodies. If the PSA clone can use the most of the a Glock stuff they may have trouble keeping them in stock.

The Ruger PC Carbine uses Glock mags, and I can see other companies picking up on the use of Glock mags in the future. Patents have expired through Gen 3 and lots of companies are churning out magazines.


The clone uses the glock mag, trigger group and other parts for the gen 3 model 19.

[suncat05]

Everybody needs a G19.

My Agency just issued us all brand new Glock Model 45's in 9 mm.
We had the option of buying back our former duty weapons, mine is the H&K USP Compact .40 S&W.
Not bragging, but I got mine, with 3 magazines for LESS THAN $400.00.
As far as the Glock is concerned, it's a Glock. It still has that messed up European cant to the grip, and it's a 9 mm, not a .40 or a .45. It's functional, and at least they issued us good duty ammunition, the Hornady Critical Duty in 135 grain +P.
As I have said before, I am NOT a Glock fan. I hate the European grip angle, it doesn't facilitate a true from the holster point of aim on target. But.......it is functional, very basic, and I do like the safety features on it.
It's okay. But it isn't a Sig or an H&K. JMHO.

[dan_bgblue]

If I were not concerned about over penetration into the neighbors house i would be shopping for a Springfield arms model 1911 .45 cal. The 1911 fits my hand, I love the balance and with the 5 inch barrel the recoil and barrel rise are both very manageable.

I can't stop your Prius but I can kill your Expedition or your Tahoe.

[KeithKSR]

If I were not concerned about over penetration into the neighbors house i would be shopping for a Springfield arms model 1911 .45 cal. The 1911 fits my hand, I love the balance and with the 5 inch barrel the recoil and barrel rise are both very manageable.

I can't stop your Prius but I can kill your Expedition or your Tahoe.

I miss my Rock Island 1911, I’ll probably get another 1911 in a few years.

[CitizenBBN]

I'm going to look hard at the Sig P320 (military designation M17 or M18 for the compact version which I would probably go with), the new military service weapon. It's gotten really good reviews. Sig makes great guns. If I were getting a full size semi auto that's my first stop.

Now that's a 9mm, and I prefer a 40S&W or 45ACP.

My next small gun is probably the Springfield XDS in 45acp. Sweet gun.

Or a bazooka.

[Doc]

my home defense?


https://www.facebook.com/rsball/videos/3051391804882184/

[KeithKSR]

I'm going to look hard at the Sig P320 (military designation M17 or M18 for the compact version which I would probably go with), the new military service weapon. It's gotten really good reviews. Sig makes great guns. If I were getting a full size semi auto that's my first stop.

Now that's a 9mm, and I prefer a 40S&W or 45ACP.

My next small gun is probably the Springfield XDS in 45acp. Sweet gun.

Or a bazooka.

In the 9mm compact world there are lots of good offerings by lots of manufacturers. The 15 round capacity and around 4 inch barrel size is a very popular combination of firepower, and size. Nice size for the range, home defense and can be squeezed into the CCW role.

[dan_bgblue]

Another reason for some long range protection. (https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/05/02/us/02asian-hornet-promo/02asian-hornet-promo-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/05/02/us/02asian-hornet-promo/02asian-hornet-promo-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

[KeithKSR]

Another reason for some long range protection. (https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/05/02/us/02asian-hornet-promo/02asian-hornet-promo-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/05/02/us/02asian-hornet-promo/02asian-hornet-promo-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

That’s a wicked looking hornet.

[dan_bgblue]

Dan, I ended up with the Walther Creed, and I'm very content with it. Beyond content, very happy in fact. It is substituting for a niche I thought I needed (higher capacity reliable 9mm. I have a nice S&W 39-2 9mm, but single stack 8 shot mags).

But if they had the PSA Glock clone then that's likely what I would have ended up with. I am looking forward to some of you getting it and letting me know what I'm missing.

Have you found any downsides to the Creed? Misfires, trigger snags, empty jams? Anything?

I do not think the PSA9 is going to come to market anytime soon and the list is $309.00 for the Walther. Major difference is bobbed hammer vs striker fire and I do not think that will bother me at all.

Thanks.

[KeithKSR]

Have you found any downsides to the Creed? Misfires, trigger snags, empty jams? Anything?

I do not think the PSA9 is going to come to market anytime soon and the list is $309.00 for the Walther. Major difference is bobbed hammer vs striker fire and I do not think that will bother me at all.

Thanks.

The Ruger Security 9 is a compact size 9 mm that has a low $300 price tag, sometimes upper $200 prices. The S&W SD9VE, which has a lot of the Glock 19 in it, runs around $289-$299. The Taurus G3, which is a really nice striker fire polymer compact runs $250, or less when on sale.

I got my wife a Taurus G3, she really liked the way it felt in her hand. It really is a comfortable fit. It comes with a 15 round mag and a 17 round mag.

Like the Walther Creed these all get good reviews.

[KeithKSR]

Dan, here is Hickock45’s video review of the Walther Creed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cslHRLOEc8

[dan_bgblue]

Thanks Keith. I will watch the Hickock vid later today. A deal breaker for me is any gun with a barrel length less than 4 inches. Seems like most of the compact 9mm are 3 to 3 1/4 inches

[suncat05]

Really like his ball cap there! 👍
And oh yeah, nice gun review too! 😂

[KeithKSR]

Thanks Keith. I will watch the Hickock vid later today. A deal breaker for me is any gun with a barrel length less than 4 inches. Seems like most of the compact 9mm are 3 to 3 1/4 inches

The shorter barrels are sub compact. The compact barrel sizes run around 4 inches, and magazines are typically 15 rounds. Typically the Glock 19 is the comparative model used most often for these.

Ruger is a bit different In their sizing, the Security 9 has a barrel length of 4 inches, the Security 9c (C for compact) has a barrel length of 3.42”, putting it in the subcompact size.

The 15 round magazines give you three fingers on the grip, vs two for the subcompact. The 4 inch barrel makes it easier to aim accurately.

Here is a list of some of the 4 inch barrels, 15 round mags that I have researched:
CZ P10C
Taurus G3
Walther Creed
Walther PPQ
Glock 19
S&W M&P 9 2.0 Compact (there are two versions the 11683 has the four inch barrel with no slide safety)
S&W SD9VE
Ruger Security 9
Ruger SR9
Springfield XD
Beretta APX
Sig P320 Compact has a 15 round capacity, barrel length is 3.9. Some have barrel lengths of 3.6” and others are full size.

[Darrell KSR]

The shorter barrels are sub compact. The compact barrel sizes run around 4 inches, and magazines are typically 15 rounds. Typically the Glock 19 is the comparative model used most often for these.

Ruger is a bit different In their sizing, the Security 9 has a barrel length of 4 inches, the Security 9c (C for compact) has a barrel length of 3.42”, putting it in the subcompact size.

The 15 round magazines give you three fingers on the grip, vs two for the subcompact. The 4 inch barrel makes it easier to aim accurately.

Here is a list of some of the 4 inch barrels, 15 round mags that I have researched:
CZ P10C
Taurus G3
Walther Creed
Walther PPQ
Glock 19
S&W M&P 9 2.0 Compact (there are two versions the 11683 has the four inch barrel with no slide safety)
S&W SD9VE
Ruger Security 9
Ruger SR9
Springfield XD
Beretta APX
Sig P320 Compact has a 15 round capacity, barrel length is 3.9. Some have barrel lengths of 3.6” and others are full size.

Walther Creed has a 16 round capacity, FWIW. It didn't hurt my feelings when I was looking that it had a 16+1 capacity.

Dan, I like it a lot, but (always a but) it ain't perfect. Has a high bore axis. I don't find it has a muzzle flip, but that's the issue you may see others suggest. Hickok had no problems with it, that's for sure lol. I've had no problems with it, as reliable as my Glock (so far) and my S&W 39-2, which I really like as well.

I got a steal for it at $249.99, no tax, from CDNN. Shipped to Hoover Tactical with an indoor shooting range to try it out, they charge $20 for a FFL transfer.

I think CDNN has it now for $269.99, with three magazines (two spares). I know you're like me, though, and like to try it out before buying, but that's a possible option, depending on price.

[KentuckyWildcat]

https://www.facebook.com/PalmettoStateArmory/photos/a.386076837096/10156969253862097/?type=3&theater

[dan_bgblue]

Thank you. There is no mention of any recent progress on their home page.

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2020/01/22/palmetto-state-armory-ps9-dagger/

[KeithKSR]

Walther Creed has a 16 round capacity, FWIW. It didn't hurt my feelings when I was looking that it had a 16+1 capacity.

Dan, I like it a lot, but (always a but) it ain't perfect. Has a high bore axis. I don't find it has a muzzle flip, but that's the issue you may see others suggest. Hickok had no problems with it, that's for sure lol. I've had no problems with it, as reliable as my Glock (so far) and my S&W 39-2, which I really like as well.

I got a steal for it at $249.99, no tax, from CDNN. Shipped to Hoover Tactical with an indoor shooting range to try it out, they charge $20 for a FFL transfer.

I think CDNN has it now for $269.99, with three magazines (two spares). I know you're like me, though, and like to try it out before buying, but that's a possible option, depending on price.

I’ve seen some indications that the Creed has been discontinued. If so what is currently in the pipeline will be all there will be.

Walther always gets high marks for ergonomics, and the PPQ is considered by many to have the best trigger among striker fired pistols.

[KeithKSR]

https://www.facebook.com/PalmettoStateArmory/photos/a.386076837096/10156969253862097/?type=3&theater

The Dagger looks like a Glock with an M&P style trigger, which is not a bad combo.

[dan_bgblue]

Check back first of next week for update on PS9. they may start shipping then

[KentuckyWildcat]

Anyone have any opinions on a 6.5 creedmoor in a bolt action? Wanting one to reach out longer ranges when needed.

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

[dan_bgblue]

Wish I had an opinion but I have never even touched one much less fired one.

[dan_bgblue]

Priced anywhere from $450.00 up to $3,500.00. That is a heck of a spread

[KentuckyWildcat]

Under $800 ideally

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

[dan_bgblue]

Plenty to look at here. Mossbergs quality weapon on the lower end of the price spectrum

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/firearms/rifles/bolt-action/6.5-creedmoor/

[KeithKSR]

Under $800 ideally

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

The Savage 110 and 111 models are great shooter and within your price range.

[KentuckyWildcat]

The Savage 110 and 111 models are great shooter and within your price range.

They have lots of options in that series. Are they all the same level of accuracy?

[KeithKSR]

They have lots of options in that series. Are they all the same level of accuracy?

They all have the AccuTrigger. The differences are primarily in how they are set up, stocks, sights, internal or external magazine, etc. The AccuTrigger lets you adjust the trigger pull weight, and has a nice crisp pull.

I’ve got a 110G in .30-06. It came with wood stock, iron sights and internal magazine. My son-in-law bought a Remington 700 about the same time. My Savage was more accurate out of the box, and we’ve had a couple of people that have shot both when checking scope alignment for deer season. Everyone likes the Savage more. I had a local shop order the Savage for me, so I could get it the way I wanted it. The only thing I would do different if I had it to do over would be to order it in .308, because it shoots flatter than the .30-06 round.

[KeithKSR]

BTW, the Savage Axis II also has the AccuTrigger and is generally a sub $500 rifle that has a fantastic reputation for accuracy out of the box.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Somewhat OT

The bad thing about having a scope that records is that you see how bad you miss...But yes, I have an excuse. I rushed my shot knowing a calf was close and walking that way.

[bigsky]

Anyone have any opinions on a 6.5 creedmoor in a bolt action? Wanting one to reach out longer ranges when needed.

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk A big favorite here in Montana, sir. People are liking those short magnums here too. Were I to get a new antelope/deer/elk rifle it would be the Creedmore. I’ve shot 30.06, .308, 7mm magnum(ouch),.280,.270, .257. 25.06. Creedmore is an easy shooting round with good bullet ballistics.

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2019/7/2/65-creedmoor-proven-how-does-it-actually-perform-on-big-game/

[bigsky]

Gotta say, Without recommending it, I used a .264 WinMag and it was a virtual RayGun. Something about that bullet coefficient with a lot of powder behind it.

[bigsky]

My coronabux are going towards a
Marlin 1894CSBL 357. Home defense and matching caliber to my little carry revolver. And I can reload those .38 and .357 rounds any way I want.

[KentuckyWildcat]

PSA dagger update tonight at 9 eastern

https://www.facebook.com/PalmettoStateArmory/photos/a.386076837096/10156996729317097/?type=3&theater

[dan_bgblue]

I do not have a facebook account and have not been able to sign up for one tonight. If you sit in on the web meeting, I would appreciate you sharing any details you remember with us.

Thanks

Dan

[dan_bgblue]

For you revolver lovers, her is a unique weapon. Tarus has a 357/38 special/9mm luger out for sale. 1 ported barrel fits all, and you swap out the cylinder to accommodate the 9mm rounds.

It has a niche and it might fit yours, especially if you have a dirty harry fetish.

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2018/01/17/taurus-692-multi-caliber-revolver/

[KeithKSR]

9394

They have the Savage Axis II on sale at Sportsman’s Warehouse in Lexington. The sale started today.


Anyone have any opinions on a 6.5 creedmoor in a bolt action? Wanting one to reach out longer ranges when needed.

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

[KentuckyWildcat]

I do not have a facebook account and have not been able to sign up for one tonight. If you sit in on the web meeting, I would appreciate you sharing any details you remember with us.

Thanks

Dan

They hope to have the remaining parts in 2-3 weeks. Assemble and test. So Probably 6 weeks before release. Still starting at $299.

Note, they didn't say 6 weeks, but that seems to be logical release date from most in the group.

[dan_bgblue]

Thanks very much. I do not want to wait that long, but I am enamored with that gun, which is really weird for me as I have not laid d finger on it yet, but comparing it to all others in that price range, I am stuck on getting it rather than settling for something else.

At least knowing their is a light at the end of the tunnel o the pistol is better than not knowing anything about the shotgun. The company does not have a timeline for the one I want. May wind up with something else on that front..

sigh

[CitizenBBN]

For you revolver lovers, her is a unique weapon. Tarus has a 357/38 special/9mm luger out for sale. 1 ported barrel fits all, and you swap out the cylinder to accommodate the 9mm rounds.

It has a niche and it might fit yours, especially if you have a dirty harry fetish.

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2018/01/17/taurus-692-multi-caliber-revolver/

Interesting, and I hear good things about the Taurus moon clips, but that's my big issue shooting rimless cartridges in a revolver. You have to clip them for it to work.

IMO the most versatile is definitely still the Judge, b/c it can shoot the .410 but also the 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, and the Raging judge also shoots the .454 Casull and supports the 3" 410 shells. All with the same cylinder, etc.

But it is interesting to pare the 9mm with the 357/38. I guess my question is what it gives the shooter other than cool (not that there's anything wrong with that lol).

It is unique, and I do love revolvers. OK, you talked me into it. :)

[dan_bgblue]

Well you do go from break your wrist 357 mag to a sweet shooting 9mm in less than 2 minutes and it all fits in the same holster.

[Darrell KSR]

Not in the market right now, but the Judge is the ET weapon I'll be interested in someday. Just love the 410 defense loads.

[dan_bgblue]

Not in the market right now, but the Judge is the ET weapon I'll be interested in someday. Just love the 410 defense loads.

Only get to use it in the summer time as if the perp is wearing a coat or even a hoodie the .410 pellets won't push thru the fabric.

[KeithKSR]

Well you do go from break your wrist 357 mag to a sweet shooting 9mm in less than 2 minutes and it all fits in the same holster.

Plus, 9mm is way cheaper to shoot. Even with recent shortages I found a 250 round bucket of 9mm for just under $52.

[Darrell KSR]

Hang on

[Darrell KSR]

Only get to use it in the summer time as if the perp is wearing a coat or even a hoodie the .410 pellets won't push thru the fabric.

OK, I'm on my computer now...I'll see if I can "pretty this up" a little.

The PDX defense loads aren't "pellets," per se. But to give a bit of an introduction to the defense loads, I thought the better way to show it was through a test of 7 different .410 loads as defense load possibilities. The following is a cut and paste excerpts from an article linked at the bottom. If you want to skip to the PDX defense load, it's listed at 6. Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 .410 Bore
2.5-inch S410PDX1, $11.47/10.

"We started off by showing how ineffective birdshot was for self defense, then moved on to the main event: in-close patterning and penetration for buckshot, BBs, defense discs, and slugs.

It is quite interesting that when we test ammunition, some participants, observers, and readers get bent out of shape. They have told us that, sure, the ballistic test shows one thing, but my friend has shot clean through a deer with . An anecdotal incident may in fact be true, and it may run counter to our results. But our basis for testing ammo has proven profitable in testing individual loadings and comparing one to the other, as well as comparing one caliber to the other.

It is possible to compare loads and render recommendations based on their performance, and it is also possible to test a single load and determine if the penetration and expansion standards are adequate for the intended mission.

We are not delicate flowers who get our knickers in a wad when a favorite caliber doesn't cut the mustard. There is something for everyone, and we simply tell it like it is. Our results are verifiable and repeatable. Variances in velocity and accuracy are par for the course, but any reader who runs his own tests should find the general results will be very close to our results. We point out that we do not have an adversarial relationship with the ammunition makers; rather, we are often in awe of the efficiency and consistency of the ammunition we test. But there has to be a best choice.

When it comes to the .410 bore shotgun shell, we found a range of opinions among our raters. The majority of the raters had little use for the .410, with one referring to it as useless. However, once we had gathered some facts, most of us came to a different opinion of the .410 by the time the test was over. With the one having no use for the .410, another of our raters was adamant concerning the role of .410 slugs, as an example, in killing fox, coyote, and other predators. In an accurate shotgun, the .410 slugs kills better than any .22 rifle, he mentioned, while offering greater safety. The slug breaks up and also has less range than the rimfire rifle he said. In this niche, there is nothing quite as capable as the .410, he asserted. Our experiments confirmed his assessment of the .410 slug.

Another interesting development is the introduction of the Taurus Judge in 45 Colt and .410 bore. This handgun has elicited different reactions from different folks. Many experienced shooters who favor the big bore .45 Colt or .44 Magnums took a look at the Judge and felt that it was ungainly and would never be useful. While this is a strongly held opinion by many professionals, sales of the Judge are very strong. One of our raters noted that practically everyone in his circle of shooting friends owns one Judge or the other version. Sadly, the Judge cannot be offered in smoothbore form because short-barrel shotguns are illegal, and a smoothbore pistol is a short-barrel shotgun, according to federal law. But those who own slug guns will tell you that shot being swirled around in rifling is seldom, if ever, capable of producing a good pattern.

With all of this background, we elected to test several .410 bore shotshells. All of our testing was done with a .410 shotgun, not a pistol. If the load doesnt perform well in the shotgun, it will be much less effective in the handgun. The projectile launcher was a standard Mossberg .410 pump with 24-inch barrel. Hardly a tactical model, this shotgun features a gold trigger, vent rib, and solid smooth action. Overall, everyone was suitably impressed with this light, fast-handling shotgun.

....

We next shot a load designed for personal defense, the Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 .410 Bore 2.5-inch S410PDX1, $11.47/10. This combo load included both buckshot and discs and cost $1.15 apiece (CTD No. 8-WIN-S410PDX1). Then we rounded out the test with Winchester Super-X Slugs X413RS5 3-inch .25-oz. Rifled Slug, $5.02/5. They were $1 apiece (CTD No. 2-WNX413RS5).

Here's how the rounds performed in our tests:

1. Birdshot: Estate Cartridge High Velocity
Hunting Load .410 Bore HV4103 3-inch
Max dr. eq., 11/16 oz. No. 6s, $11.94/25

Our Team Said: Birdshot should not be your load choice for personal defense. We could have picked nearly any hunting load to illustrate how poorly birdshot penetrates, so dont take away that Estate is a bad shell. Its actually quite a good upland bird choice.
GUN TESTS GRADE: D


2. Federal Premium Personal Defense .410 Bore
PD4122JGE-000 2.5-inch 000 Buckshot, $12.40/20

Our Team Said: Great performance for self defense, but we rated the Federal load a step behind the Winchester 3-inch buckshot choice. The Federal was slightly cheaper than the Winchester personal defense load, though pricing can vary.
GUN TESTS GRADE: B+


3. Winchesters Super X .410 Bore B41000
2.5-inch #000 Buck, $4.88/5.


Our Team Said: This Winchester 2.5-inch load was less powerful than its stablemate, so we think the 3-inch load is a better choice.
GUN TESTS GRADE: C


4. Golden Bear .410 Bore AG41B5 #4 Buck
3-Inch Magnum, $3.49/5

Our Team Said: It was easy to like the pattern, the lightest felt recoil of any load tested, and the inexpensive price. But the Golden Bear 2.5-inch load was noticeably less powerful than some of the others.
GUN TESTS GRADE: C


5. Winchester Super-X .410 Bore XB413
3-inch 000 Buck, $5.91/5

Our Team Said: In a contest between the Winchester 3-inch load and the 2.5-inch Federal Handgun Load, we noted that the Winchester load has the greater payload and energy, although its velocity is lower. Next you have to compare the Winchester buckshot load to the Winchester PDX. This is more difficult. The 000 buckshot load has virtually the same penetration as a 12-gauge load, but with a much lighter payload. This means shot placement is vital, and that means a tight pattern at close range and adequate penetration. All the buckshot balls did not penetrate 36 inches, but one or two did. The PDX load has a respectable mixed payload. The PDXs BB shots demonstrated adequate penetration, while the slugs demonstrated consistently good penetration. The flat disk would disrupt or excise tissue more cleanly than a round ball. We were by no means unanimous on this decision, but the weighted vote gave the PDX the nod.
GUN TESTS GRADE: A

6. Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 .410 Bore
2.5-inch S410PDX1, $11.47/10.

This is a load we tested with great expectation. More expensive and with greater T&E in each shell, the PDX contains an interesting payload. However, it is only slightly more expensive in the total picture. The PDX is worthwhile if there is an advantage. There are 12 plated BBs and three cylinder-bore projectiles. The payload is over 300 grains. The PDX is intended to give a swarm of pellets at close range while offering a solid projectile for use at longer range. The result is the largest pattern at 7 yards, 7 by 3 inches with the flat disks grouping into about 3 inches and the rest taken up with the 12 BB shots.

Our Team Said: With this load we feel we have penetration in the ideal range for personal defense without risking overpenetration. The greatest distance traveled by a single BB pellet was 24 inches. The slugs went 18 inches. This good performance, with a good payload and pattern. This is a true personal defense load rather than a hunting or pest control load. In the days of the Old West, there was a legendary shotgun load that was comprised of a roll of dimes. It was claimed this load was extremely deadly. This would have been an expensive proposition, and while there may be truth to the legend, we have no idea. The Winchester disk may be the modern equivalent.
GUN TESTS GRADE: A


7. Winchester Super-X Slugs X413RS5
3-inch .25-oz. Rifled Slug, $5.02/5

Our Team Said: The slug certainly has its merits as a home-defense round. Velocity and energy are excellent, more than we would have guessed before beginning the test program. The slug is the least likely of the loads tested to overpenetrate, aside from the birdshot. Still, a shotgun is a shotgun, and it uses shot. The slug performs well and shoots to the point of aim with excellent accuracy. It is an option that cannot be discounted. In the end the .410 shotgun seems very useful for personal defense. The raters agree that a slightly built person or youth would be well served with the .410 shotgun if they simply cannot handle the 12 gauge. As for the rest of us, we enjoyed shooting the .410, and we think it would not be out of place as an all-round pest popper and personal-defense shotgun.
GUN TESTS GRADE: B+

https://www.gun-tests.com/ammo/checking-out-the-410-bore-we-test-seven-loads-for-defense-2/

[Darrell KSR]

I messed that cut and paste up badly, but I was trying to get a blurb on one of the PDX defense load for Dan. I saw that one that included bird shot pellets and the like and tried to include it as well for contrast from the defense loads.

FWIW, I think it's an ideal truck or anti-carjack gun and load.

By the way, the review above was for the 2.5 inch. The 3" version contains 4 plated defense disks, 16 plated bb's, rather than 3 & 12. Taurus makes a Judge that will chamber 3" ones (but not all of them do).

[dan_bgblue]

Anyone interested in a Walther Creed, I found this deal on the net.

$269.89 Limit 3.

I have almost picked up the phone 3 or 4 times to call in an order, and I may still do it later today

https://www.cdnnsports.com/walther-creed-9mm.html

[KeithKSR]

I messed that cut and paste up badly, but I was trying to get a blurb on one of the PDX defense load for Dan. I saw that one that included bird shot pellets and the like and tried to include it as well for contrast from the defense loads.

FWIW, I think it's an ideal truck or anti-carjack gun and load.

By the way, the review above was for the 2.5 inch. The 3" version contains 4 plated defense disks, 16 plated bb's, rather than 3 & 12. Taurus makes a Judge that will chamber 3" ones (but not all of them do).

The problem in my area is .410 ammo isn’t very plentiful.I didn’t realize how hard it was to find until I bought my daughter one of those Rossi single shot .410/.22 combos with interchangeable barrels. Right now most types of personal defense ammo is hard to get. A local pawn shop that sells ammo told me they sold a year’s ammo inventory in one month.

[KeithKSR]

Thanks very much. I do not want to wait that long, but I am enamored with that gun, which is really weird for me as I have not laid d finger on it yet, but comparing it to all others in that price range, I am stuck on getting it rather than settling for something else.

At least knowing their is a light at the end of the tunnel o the pistol is better than not knowing anything about the shotgun. The company does not have a timeline for the one I want. May wind up with something else on that front..

sigh

I saw a couple of semiauto 12s similar to the Charles Daly at a pawn shop/gun shop this week. They were both priced at $369. I think one was the TriStar Raptor. Watched some videos on it and it seems to function well. One guy had a charging handle issue and the company sent another one out. Another guy evidently didn’t check to be sure his choke tube was properly tightened and lost it off the end of the barrel. A new choke tube fixed that issue, like the Charles Daly it takes Benelli choke tubes.

I’m not sure what brand the other was, it also looked very similar. My glasses were steamed up from the mask, so reading info off the barrel was impossible. I’ll go back for a closer look if the CD doesn’t get to where it can be ordered.

[dan_bgblue]

Thanks Keith. Do not go to a lot of trouble, but any info you come up with will be appreciated

[dan_bgblue]

I do not know the rules about buying from a pawn shop. Does it proceed just like a gun shop? If I were to buy from them over the phone, do they have to send it to a FFL location and me pick up from there?

[dan_bgblue]

CBBN, you have anything coming up at an auction that any of us may like?

[KeithKSR]

I do not know the rules about buying from a pawn shop. Does it proceed just like a gun shop? If I were to buy from them over the phone, do they have to send it to a FFL location and me pick up from there?

Pawn Shops that sell firearms are licensed FFL dealers. Several of the Pawn Shops in my area are also dealers.

Bud’s is now listing a Citadel Warthog, it looks nearly identical to the Charles Daly. https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/415012241/legacy+citadel+warthog+tactical+12+ga+20+4%2b1

I’ve not done any research on it yet, but assume it is a Turkish import.

[dan_bgblue]

These clones are made in both China and Turkey, and are imported by Tristar.

Chas Daily only imports the ones made in Turkey and htey are a bit different than the Chicom ones

[KeithKSR]

These clones are made in both China and Turkey, and are imported by Tristar.

Chas Daily only imports the ones made in Turkey and htey are a bit different than the Chicom ones

Linberta is one of the Turkish imports. The videos I have seen of the Turkish guns all seem to be pretty positive.

[dan_bgblue]

Linberta is still showing out of stock and it looks identical to the Chas Daly pic in the online add

[KeithKSR]

Dan, here is a Palmetto State Q&A With info on the DAGR that popped up on my YouTube stream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHHYkSxHweU

[dan_bgblue]

Thank you Very Much

[Darrell KSR]

The problem in my area is .410 ammo isn’t very plentiful.I didn’t realize how hard it was to find until I bought my daughter one of those Rossi single shot .410/.22 combos with interchangeable barrels. Right now most types of personal defense ammo is hard to get. A local pawn shop that sells ammo told me they sold a year’s ammo inventory in one month.

Keith, I think the PDX-1 defense load is pretty available. I haven't been in local stores in a couple of months, but they had them on the shelf, and a couple of mail order places like Midway have them in stock. Regular 410 shotgun shells may be more difficult, but if you don't mind plunking down $15 for 10 shells, the defense load is around.

But scarcity of ammo is why I really like my two 9mm handguns. It seems like that will be around when nothing else will. I almost got rid of my Smith and Wesson 39-2 some ago, but decided to keep it and glad I did. It's not my most practical, limited capacity, not terribly concealable, but it is such a good shooting 9mm handgun.

[dan_bgblue]

That was awesome. Projection for initial release of the 1st basic model at the #299.00 price point is 2 to 3 weeks, and I go the impression that they will start shipping in 2 weeks if something does not blow up. They are not taking any pre completion orders.

Thanks again Keith. That made up my mind for me and I am a happy camper.

[KeithKSR]

Keith, I think the PDX-1 defense load is pretty available. I haven't been in local stores in a couple of months, but they had them on the shelf, and a couple of mail order places like Midway have them in stock. Regular 410 shotgun shells may be more difficult, but if you don't mind plunking down $15 for 10 shells, the defense load is around.

But scarcity of ammo is why I really like my two 9mm handguns. It seems like that will be around when nothing else will. I almost got rid of my Smith and Wesson 39-2 some ago, but decided to keep it and glad I did. It's not my most practical, limited capacity, not terribly concealable, but it is such a good shooting 9mm handgun.

Self defense load are always significantly higher than standard rounds. In this area ammo is still flying off the shelves. I was at Rural King midweek and was going to pick up some Aguila .22 they had on sale for $2.29/box of 50. They didn’t have a single box of it. They also didn’t have any 9 mm, and the only 5.56 they had was in an overpriced bulk box. They did have some 2 3/4” 12 ga 00 buck for $3.99/box of 5 shells. They didn’t have any .410 of any kind, no 20 ga shells, no 12 gauge beyond the 00 buck. They had less than 20 boxes of the 00 buck. I picked up two boxes of the buckshot, which was the limit. They did have a single box of .30 Carbine, which is normally harder to find. Anything else they had was low in quantity, 5 boxes or less, and not in popular calibers.

The Judge seems to have driven the .410 self defense load innovation. Prior to that the .410 loads were mostly field loads for rabbit, squirrels, and birds like grouse and pheasant.

[KeithKSR]

That was awesome. Projection for initial release of the 1st basic model at the #299.00 price point is 2 to 3 weeks, and I go the impression that they will start shipping in 2 weeks if something does not blow up. They are not taking any pre completion orders.

Thanks again Keith. That made up my mind for me and I am a happy camper.

This place has some good prices on Glock mags. With Glock compatible magazines you can boost capacity to with the 17 round or 33 round magazines.

https://gunmagwarehouse.com/all-magazines/handguns/semi-automatic--9mm-luger

[Darrell KSR]

Self defense load are always significantly higher than standard rounds. In this area ammo is still flying off the shelves. I was at Rural King midweek and was going to pick up some Aguila .22 they had on sale for $2.29/box of 50. They didn’t have a single box of it. They also didn’t have any 9 mm, and the only 5.56 they had was in an overpriced bulk box. They did have some 2 3/4” 12 ga 00 buck for $3.99/box of 5 shells. They didn’t have any .410 of any kind, no 20 ga shells, no 12 gauge beyond the 00 buck. They had less than 20 boxes of the 00 buck. I picked up two boxes of the buckshot, which was the limit. They did have a single box of .30 Carbine, which is normally harder to find. Anything else they had was low in quantity, 5 boxes or less, and not in popular calibers.

The Judge seems to have driven the .410 self defense load innovation. Prior to that the .410 loads were mostly field loads for rabbit, squirrels, and birds like grouse and pheasant.Gracious. Not a bad idea to stock up when it gets available, for sure.

[dan_bgblue]

This online store has some .410 shells available in limited quantities. The have some double aught, bird shot, discs, and slugs.

https://ammo.com/shotgun/410-ammo

[KeithKSR]

Dan, I got over to Ashland today and talked to the Charles Daly dealer. They said that the Charles Daly semiauto isn’t in stock at their shop and they ran the UPC and the computer shows the warehouse is out of stock. They said things are beginning to get moving again and to keep checking back with them. They told me when they can get one of them my price will be about $245.

I did lay my mitts on the Legacy Citadel Warthog. They had it priced for $369 and the guy told me that it is nearly identical to the CD, both come from Turkey and he said they were likely made in the same factory with the differences being the specs for each importer. The Warthog they have only comes with one choke tube. The one Buds sells is supposed to come with five tubes, and the Charles Daly is supposed to come with three. Choke tubes start out at about $30 and go up from there, so that may factor in your decision.

The Bud’s version of the Citadel has the 20” barrel, which could double as a turkey gun with an extra full or turkey choke tube. They show available serial numbers on the Bud’s website, but show none available in their three stores. I’m not sure what the story is there, perhaps they are in the process of shipping them to stores?

[KentuckyWildcat]

If anyone sees any Hornady Black in 7.62x39 post it here please. Down to my last 15 or so rounds in that.

I have plenty of Wolf. But I prefer to hunt with Hornady.

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

[KeithKSR]

If anyone sees any Hornady Black in 7.62x39 post it here please. Down to my last 15 or so rounds in that.

I have plenty of Wolf. But I prefer to hunt with Hornady.

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

I was just in the Ashland Rural King, they had some of the better 7.62x39 in stock. They didn’t have a lot of any of it, but had a few boxes of three or four different types. I think one of them was Hornady. They had lots of 12 gauge in sizes 7.5 and 8. They had a few boxes of 12 gauge #2 steel, and had a dozen or so 12 gauge mini shells, they had about three boxes of buck. They had some limited 20 gauge. No boxes of .410 of any kind. They did have Armscor .22 LR for $1.99. They had some .40, .38, .357. They had about a dozen boxes of .30 carbine. They had a few boxes of Two different types of self defense 9mm. It was the fullest I had seen their ammo shelves since the pandemic began.

I forgot to mention when I was at the gun shop earlier they had just put out 20,000 rounds of Fiocchi 9mm FMJ, priced at $12.95 a box/50. They expect it to be gone by the end of the day today.

[KentuckyWildcat]

My scope can zero multiple rounds and I need to zero it with Wolf as well. Point of impact is about 2-3 inches different and it does not group quite as well. Federal supposedly makes a good 7.62x39 round I need try at some point.

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

[KeithKSR]

My scope can zero multiple rounds and I need to zero it with Wolf as well. Point of impact is about 2-3 inches different and it does not group quite as well. Federal supposedly makes a good 7.62x39 round I need try at some point.

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

All I’ve ever used in my SKS is Wolf, Tula and some generic white boxed stuff. It wouldn’t know how to behave with good ammo. It’s pretty accurate without an optic with the cheap stuff, I’d think it would shoot well with better ammo.

[dan_bgblue]

Keith, if you see one at that price, please just let me know and it will be sold quickly. I have a FFL dealer here that will handle a sale in one of 2 ways. If they can find a CD to purchase themselves, they will sell it to me at the sticker price I find elsewhere, or they will handle the transaction for me for 20 bucks to do the transfer.

[KeithKSR]

Keith, if you see one at that price, please just let me know and it will be sold quickly. I have a FFL dealer here that will handle a sale in one of 2 ways. If they can find a CD to purchase themselves, they will sell it to me at the sticker price I find elsewhere, or they will handle the transaction for me for 20 bucks to do the transfer.

Sure thing. If the Citadel would have had the choke tubes with it that the CD has it would have come home with me today. The $100+ difference in price and no choke tubes was too much for this version of the Citadel to overcome.

[KentuckyWildcat]

All I’ve ever used in my SKS is Wolf, Tula and some generic white boxed stuff. It wouldn’t know how to behave with good ammo. It’s pretty accurate without an optic with the cheap stuff, I’d think it would shoot well with better ammo.KS47, Hornady Black, Accufire Scope, 100 yards. Very happy with this combo so far.

Have not tried it in my SKS or AK. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200523/c0274afb8c891a6980b11c020e553116.jpg

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

[dan_bgblue]

That is a really spiffy shot right thru the middle of the 1. What caliber bullet did you use for that shot? That looks smaller than even the .177

[KentuckyWildcat]

Bostitch 18 gauge :)

Sent from my LM-X210APM using Tapatalk

[dan_bgblue]

I was hoping you had latched on to one of these


http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2008/06/07/dewalt-ar-15-nail-gun/

[CitizenBBN]

Self defense load are always significantly higher than standard rounds. In this area ammo is still flying off the shelves. I was at Rural King midweek and was going to pick up some Aguila .22 they had on sale for $2.29/box of 50. They didn’t have a single box of it. They also didn’t have any 9 mm, and the only 5.56 they had was in an overpriced bulk box. They did have some 2 3/4” 12 ga 00 buck for $3.99/box of 5 shells. They didn’t have any .410 of any kind, no 20 ga shells, no 12 gauge beyond the 00 buck. They had less than 20 boxes of the 00 buck. I picked up two boxes of the buckshot, which was the limit. They did have a single box of .30 Carbine, which is normally harder to find. Anything else they had was low in quantity, 5 boxes or less, and not in popular calibers.

The Judge seems to have driven the .410 self defense load innovation. Prior to that the .410 loads were mostly field loads for rabbit, squirrels, and birds like grouse and pheasant.

This is why I ordered ammo when this started, even 22. Got guns and ammo, you can get everything else. :)

[KeithKSR]

This is why I ordered ammo when this started, even 22. Got guns and ammo, you can get everything else. :)

I don’t have nearly enough ammo to make me feel comfortable. Some calibers and gauges a couple of boxes is plenty, but not for primary defensive weapons.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I don’t have nearly enough ammo to make me feel comfortable. Some calibers and gauges a couple of boxes is plenty, but not for primary defensive weapons.

https://grabagun.com/hornady-black-7-62x39-123gr-sst-20-rounds.html

Was able to order 3 just now if you wanted to try it.

[KeithKSR]

https://grabagun.com/hornady-black-7-62x39-123gr-sst-20-rounds.html

Was able to order 3 just now if you wanted to try it.

I use 7.62x39 for plinking and stuff, so I buy cheaper Tula, Wolf, etc., for my SKS. My primary defense calibers/ gauges are 9mm, .223/5.56, and 12 gauge.

[Darrell KSR]

I need to go shooting, so I need to buy more ammo to do that. I'm ok for what I have right now, but it wouldn't bother me to have some more 9mm and .45 ACP, and some .38. Heck, some .22, too, for that matter. If the price ever gets back down to the dirt-cheap price they used to be, I'll really stock up, even though I just have one .22 pistol.

[dan_bgblue]

Hey, if you have plenty of ammo it is an incentive to purchase a few more guns to go with it

[Darrell KSR]

Hey, if you have plenty of ammo it is an incentive to purchase a few more guns to go with it

lol. Good point.

[KeithKSR]

I need to go shooting, so I need to buy more ammo to do that. I'm ok for what I have right now, but it wouldn't bother me to have some more 9mm and .45 ACP, and some .38. Heck, some .22, too, for that matter. If the price ever gets back down to the dirt-cheap price they used to be, I'll really stock up, even though I just have one .22 pistol.

Rural King has had .22 for $1.99/box of 50 the last couple of times I have been in there. I’ve picked up a couple of boxes each trip. I remember getting .22 for 50 cents a box as a kid at Maloney’s.

[Darrell KSR]

I well remember them for $0.79, but I wasn't buying .22's as a kid, so I didn't pay attention to them. I remember buying for less than $1.

$1.99 for a box is a darn good price. Academy Sports here has Aguila for $2.49 for a box, and I thought *that* was a good price.

[CitizenBBN]

www.sgammo.com. .22LR 40 and 36 gr starting at 0.04/round. Doesn't include shipping, but it's pretty reasonable. Good small business operation on this site, I like them.

FWIW I can't get it wholesale cheaper than the bulk sites sell for at retail. I could if I order a truckload. Hmmm.......

[KeithKSR]

I well remember them for $0.79, but I wasn't buying .22's as a kid, so I didn't pay attention to them. I remember buying for less than $1.

$1.99 for a box is a darn good price. Academy Sports here has Aguila for $2.49 for a box, and I thought *that* was a good price.

Rural King advertised the Aguila recently for $2.49 and never had any in stock.

[dan_bgblue]

Winchester 40 gr .22 LR HP 500 cartridge box selling for .0779 a pop. I can step onto my back porch most any time of the day and return with the meat course of supper for 16 cents. That is pretty dang cheap.

Thanks for the link. They actually have ammo in stock at good prices and they promised to get it out the door tomorrow, maybe even tonight.

I like doing business with independent operations, specially mom and pop stores.

[CitizenBBN]

They're a good one. Very fair prices, if not outright the cheapest, and great service.

I may buy another bunch of 22 just to be safe. Price is still a good penny per round higher than normal, but that's not crazy.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Any of you guys own a Tikka?

[CitizenBBN]

I've sold a couple of Sako rifles, but never fired one.

[dan_bgblue]

Any of you guys own a Tikka?

I will not own nor shoot anything I can not pronounce.

[Darrell KSR]

I will not own nor shoot anything I can not pronounce.

No Sturmgewehr?

[KeithKSR]

Anyone have any opinions on a 6.5 creedmoor in a bolt action? Wanting one to reach out longer ranges when needed.

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I’ve been doing some reading about the 6.5 Creedmoor.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/5-things-i-learned-about-65-creedmoor-for-whitetails/

I am intrigued by this round as a replacement of my .30-‘06 as a deer hunting round. A flatter shooting round with less recoil becomes more desirable as one gets older. When you choose a rifle you’ll have to give us a report on your thoughts.

[KeithKSR]

No Sturmgewehr?

It’s not hard to pronounce its common shortened name, STG 44.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I will not own nor shoot anything I can not pronounce.

That would eliminate a lot of Russian models. But you may only be talking about rifles.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I’ve been doing some reading about the 6.5 Creedmoor.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/5-things-i-learned-about-65-creedmoor-for-whitetails/

I am intrigued by this round as a replacement of my .30-‘06 as a deer hunting round. A flatter shooting round with less recoil becomes more desirable as one gets older. When you choose a rifle you’ll have to give us a report on your thoughts.

Exactly why I'm looking at it. Read nothing bad about it. Accurate and flat. Limited recoil. Considered to be an improved 308. I've not never shot either so...

I only have 7.62 and 223. So I want one rifle that will reach out to 300 yards with some knock down power.

I'm 40, far from being older (in my mind at least lol). But my shoulder and really my entire right arm has some nerve damage. All this talk about 12 gauge in this thread makes me hurt.

It will be a while before I get one. Probably fall or maybe even Christmas. But hopefully fall. Currently looking at the Tikka 3x lite or the Tikka CTR. I've watched a lot of YouTube lately on the 6.5 rounds and those seem to be the cream of the crop in my price range.

[dan_bgblue]

No Sturmgewehr?

Huh?

[CitizenBBN]

No Sturmgewehr?

In American English I believe it's pronounced "felony". :)

Or, if you have a Class III license, it's pronounced "insanely expensive".

[Darrell KSR]

Hey, you know I'm just talking airsoft guns ;).

https://www.airsoftmegastore.com/453-430-fps-agm-full-metal-mp44-sturmgewehr-stg-44-wwii-aeg-airsoft-rifle-AGM-056A?iid=453

[Darrell KSR]

For history buffs, there's a lot to like about the Sturmgewehr, predecessor to the AK-47. Hitler shunned it as a great mix of submachine gun and infantry rifle, and by the time he figured it out, they had lost the war.

There's a company in Georgia that either makes replicas, or used to make them. A buddy of mine collects about anything, and he has one. I think he has 50-round magazines with it. Don't hold me to that; I don't know, but I think that's what he said.

[KeithKSR]

In American English I believe it's pronounced "felony". :)

Or, if you have a Class III license, it's pronounced "insanely expensive".

For me it’s pronounced “out of reach” with those $20,000-$30,000 prices. The Class III license is a comparative bargain.

[dan_bgblue]

For history buffs, there's a lot to like about the Sturmgewehr, predecessor to the AK-47. Hitler shunned it as a great mix of submachine gun and infantry rifle, and by the time he figured it out, they had lost the war.

There's a company in Georgia that either makes replicas, or used to make them. A buddy of mine collects about anything, and he has one. I think he has 50-round magazines with it. Don't hold me to that; I don't know, but I think that's what he said.

https://money.cnn.com/2016/06/29/smallbusiness/german-sturmgewehr-assault-rifle/index.html

[CitizenBBN]

If I get a class III gut it will be a Thompson. To me that's just the classic submachine gun and it is the iconic American gun of an era.

They're also super expensive, $50K range and up. Had a buyer here that had one, I didn't know, and he sold it for $18K. For that I'd sell my car and get it, that was a steal. It was unfired in the original wood box. Easy $70-$90K gun to the right buyer.

[Darrell KSR]

https://money.cnn.com/2016/06/29/smallbusiness/german-sturmgewehr-assault-rifle/index.htmlThat's it! Thanks, Dan.

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[KeithKSR]

If I get a class III gut it will be a Thompson. To me that's just the classic submachine gun and it is the iconic American gun of an era.

They're also super expensive, $50K range and up. Had a buyer here that had one, I didn't know, and he sold it for $18K. For that I'd sell my car and get it, that was a steal. It was unfired in the original wood box. Easy $70-$90K gun to the right buyer.

The Thompson is a good choice, as is the BAR.

[dan_bgblue]

That's it! Thanks, Dan.

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Hickock 45 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMK5OGEIbwk)

[dan_bgblue]

:trink40:

Amazing what one can find just prowling around the net.

II can get a brand new Barrett .50 cal with built in tripod for $8,499.00 and that includes a 25X50 scope. Includes the standard 10 round clip. I just need an additional $7,000.00 in stimulus money.

It is a absolutely beautiful weapon.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/5/1/5165491830-barrett-model-82a1-rifle.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWC-Cp0MYB0

[KeithKSR]

Darrell needs one of these as a companion to The Judge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Wo2YhtpnI

[dan_bgblue]

Darrell needs one of these as a companion to The Judge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Wo2YhtpnI

I would like to have one, but it is too expensive for me, even though it would fill 2 needs in home defense. I just do not see me packing it around instead of a pistol.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Wish the wife would learn to shoot that

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[Darrell KSR]

Darrell needs one of these as a companion to The Judge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Wo2YhtpnIThat looks awesome.

-No Signature Harmed During the Posting of this Comment-

[dan_bgblue]

Anyone have any opinions on a 6.5 creedmoor in a bolt action? Wanting one to reach out longer ranges when needed.

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TheLateBoyScout


Many 1S9tf aruaStp oc6:nshaor2l8fio hPtieldMrm · Public

Cabela's
has the Savage Arms
110 Tactical Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor and .308 Win for just $429.97 right now! It comes with a 20" barrel, an adjustable, synthetic stock, and of course the Savage AccuTrigger. This would be an awesome, budget long-range platform. 酪
https://bit.ly/2WJgCk9

This store is currently sold out, but you might find one at the same price elsewhere. They were $429.97

[KentuckyWildcat]

That would have been a bargain...I tend to miss bargains....

[dan_bgblue]

What about #548.00?

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/savage/firearms/rifles/bolt-action/6.5-creedmoor/

[KeithKSR]

What about #548.00?

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/savage/firearms/rifles/bolt-action/6.5-creedmoor/

Tough to beat the out of the box accuracy of a Savage 110.

[KeithKSR]

My search for a home defense shotgun continues. It seems like the supply of shotguns with 18.5 to 20 inch barrels has completely sold out. I’ve never seen a run on firearms like what we have seen. Hunting rifles are available, but shotguns aren’t. Handguns are starting to be resupplied, but have been in limited supply since the pandemic struck.

[dan_bgblue]

It has definitely been a lousy time to get the urge to buy a gun. I got started looking about a month too late.

[CitizenBBN]

The first crunch was just supply lines. Now they really are out of inventory.

I'm good with it. I have a pretty good idea who is buying up most of the guns and I'm glad they're well armed.

[CitizenBBN]

I sold an 1897 some time ago. I should have kept it and cut it down to the legal limit and spruced it up a bit.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Posted by PSA on the Dagger Facebook group 1 hour ago:

"The Dagger is entering the final stages of pre-production. We are hopeful that the supply line delays have ended, and we can return to normal operations, focus on completing the Dagger project and bring it to market very soon"

[KentuckyWildcat]

The first crunch was just supply lines. Now they really are out of inventory.

I'm good with it. I have a pretty good idea who is buying up most of the guns and I'm glad they're well armed.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ammocom-reports-a-recent-spike-in-ammunition-sales-that-indicates-rise-in-african-american-gun-ownership-301074060.html

[CitizenBBN]

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ammocom-reports-a-recent-spike-in-ammunition-sales-that-indicates-rise-in-african-american-gun-ownership-301074060.html

Works for me. If I lived in these neighborhoods terrorized by gangs and drugs I'd be arming myself as well. The telling stat in that is that half their members are women. Women get guns for self defense.

[KeithKSR]

It has definitely been a lousy time to get the urge to buy a gun. I got started looking about a month too late.

Yep. I’m hoping maybe by late July home defense shotguns will be back in stock.

[KeithKSR]

Works for me. If I lived in these neighborhoods terrorized by gangs and drugs I'd be arming myself as well. The telling stat in that is that half their members are women. Women get guns for self defense.

The more the better.

[dan_bgblue]

Posted by PSA on the Dagger Facebook group 1 hour ago:

"The Dagger is entering the final stages of pre-production. We are hopeful that the supply line delays have ended, and we can return to normal operations, focus on completing the Dagger project and bring it to market very soon"

Thank you sir for the heads up

Do you have a link to the dagger facebook group page?

I finally got hooked up with facebook just to I could see what they are talking about and I am so facebook stupid that I can not find it.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Thank you sir for the heads up

Do you have a link to the dagger facebook group page?

I finally got hooked up with facebook just to I could see what they are talking about and I am so facebook stupid that I can not find it.https://www.facebook.com/groups/2574979176065162/?ref=share

Try that

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[KentuckyWildcat]

Warning they are kind of annoying.

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[dan_bgblue]

Kinda snotty too, hiding behind a private wall.

Thanks

[KentuckyWildcat]

Most FB groups are private or they get hijacked.

PSA themselves are ok. But their followers are arrogant and immature.

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[Darrell KSR]

Kinda snotty too, hiding behind a private wall.

Thanks

I wouldn't belong to any private group that would accept me as a member. Gotta have some standards!

[KentuckyWildcat]

Kinda snotty too, hiding behind a private wall.

Thanks


Most FB groups are private or they get hijacked.

PSA themselves are ok. But their followers are arrogant and immature.

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Since we now follow them on FB...does that make us...I won't speak for you. I am definitely immature :)

[dan_bgblue]

I do not know what it makes me other than an anxious potential customer that is dealing with a business that sees fit to do business on facebook rather than their www. website. I feel comfortable that when I try to make a purchase it will be done on their on line catalogue and not on facebook, but they keep pumping out production info on facebook so if I want to satisfy my need to know I have to play in their sandbox.

[KeithKSR]

I do not know what it makes me other than an anxious potential customer that is dealing with a business that sees fit to do business on facebook rather than their www. website. I feel comfortable that when I try to make a purchase it will be done on their on line catalogue and not on facebook, but they keep pumping out production info on facebook so if I want to satisfy my need to know I have to play in their sandbox.

That page isn’t their official FB page.

[dan_bgblue]

Here is a youtube video of an interview with the gun's creator. Lots of good information about the weapon and the process of creation of the Dagr.

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/06/catching-up-on-the-ps9-dagger-with-palmetto-state-armory/?fbclid=IwAR3TkNz7fHZhf_Vr-S8ol2APeoCW_SwXE975H2LvCo_E2id4hFc5nmrjQ8M

Looks like first week of July for the weapon to be released for sale. I hope they will have several thousand of them ready to ship by then.

[dan_bgblue]

That page isn’t their official FB page.

True but it is one step away, and is the official handgun forum. That would be like saying that this page or the UK sports forum is not the official KSR forum page and only accepting the KSR Front Page as the "official" KSR internet page.

https://www.facebook.com/PalmettoStateArmory/

[KentuckyWildcat]

And PSA does post on that page.

I find gun forums and reviews/comments on products to be ridiculousness at best. I use Facebook to follow a few gun related people and products. But this is the only forum I will post anything on related to guns. We certainly have the most rationale and well spoken UK/Gun fans here. I'm not a really a "gun" person so I have some dumb questions sometimes and I ask those here. Until recently, I only had a SKS and a 12 single shot. All I ever needed and really, all I still need. But I do want to grow my collection some.

[KeithKSR]

Here is a youtube video of an interview with the gun's creator. Lots of good information about the weapon and the process of creation of the Dagr.

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/06/catching-up-on-the-ps9-dagger-with-palmetto-state-armory/?fbclid=IwAR3TkNz7fHZhf_Vr-S8ol2APeoCW_SwXE975H2LvCo_E2id4hFc5nmrjQ8M

Looks like first week of July for the weapon to be released for sale. I hope they will have several thousand of them ready to ship by then.

It appears that they will sell a large number immediately. PSA has produced quality firearms and has an outstanding reputation.

[dan_bgblue]

It appears that they will sell a large number immediately. PSA has produced quality firearms and has an outstanding reputation.

They have ticked off a lot of folks who would have jumped on the PSA9 right away, but they got on the internet and hyped the gun, and made a big splash at the shot show and did not have anything ready to sell, then the virus hit and really set them back. Lots of potential buyers have already bought something else in a comparable caliber and price range. They will likely sell lots of units and i hope they do not sell out before they can fill my order.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Wife has decided we are getting a pool...not sure what this means to my long term gun purchases, but I know what it means for my short term purchases...

[dan_bgblue]

Make sure you tell her that you will have to guard the pool against invading polar bears and migrant sheep herders. If you really want to get her attention, mention beavers and raccoons.

Make sure to let her know that you are making a sacrifice in getting the puny shotgun instead of the .50 cal you have been lusting over for years.

[KeithKSR]

BTW, Dan, checked on the Charles Daly again since the 4th. Still nothing to report. Buds has gotten more of the Citadel Legacy Warthogs in, but prices have jumped to north of $400.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I'll still get the Dagger sooner or later. I really feel like that is a need. I want a pistol with a light to walk in the woods at night. It is not uncommon to deal with a cow or calf in the woods at night. I'd feel much better with a pistol with a light mounted on it. I currently do not have a pistol with a rail.

[Darrell KSR]

I'll still get the Dagger sooner or later. I really feel like that is a need. I want a pistol with a light to walk in the woods at night. It is not uncommon to deal with a cow or calf in the woods at night.

Afraid of the killer calf?

😉

[KentuckyWildcat]

Afraid of the killer calf?

😉Afraid what wants to kill/eat the calf. And the boogeyman lol

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[KeithKSR]

Afraid what wants to kill/eat the calf. And the boogeyman lol

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If it’s eating the calf there are either several of them, or bigger than the calf. Either way it pays to be armed. In the past decade there have been confirmed kills of both wolves and cougars in Kentucky, plus the ever present coyote.

[KentuckyWildcat]

If it’s eating the calf there are either several of them, or bigger than the calf. Either way it pays to be armed. In the past decade there have been confirmed kills of both wolves and cougars in Kentucky, plus the ever present coyote.

I remember the cougar. I'd prefer those things stay out west.

[KeithKSR]

I remember the cougar. I'd prefer those things stay out west.

With less and less actual farming occurring in the state there is a lot more land area that is a suitable habitat for animals that were once no where near the area. In the 1930s deer were rarely seen, now they are everywhere. The predators will go where they have a habitat and a food supply, so now they are arriving. Bear sightings the last couple of summers have now become common here.

[KeithKSR]

I’ve noticed in the past couple of weeks that shotguns are becoming more available. I’ve even seen some Mossberg 500s. The place I get a lot of ammo has advertised a Benelli Super Nova home defense 12 gauge. At a price take near $550 I’m not sure it’s priced right.

[KeithKSR]

I broke over and bought a Charles Daly 301, pump action, 20 inch barrel. It’s one of the multitude of Turkish shotguns coming into the US. The action seems pretty stiff, so before I take it out to shoot I’m going to get some jewelers rouge and polishing pad for the Dremel and do some refinement, then lube it good and reassemble. I may still do a build later when the used pumps are back on the market. I’d really like to do a Mossberg build, they have the smoothest action to me.

[Darrell KSR]

I’ve noticed in the past couple of weeks that shotguns are becoming more available. I’ve even seen some Mossberg 500s. The place I get a lot of ammo has advertised a Benelli Super Nova home defense 12 gauge. At a price take near $550 I’m not sure it’s priced right.


I broke over and bought a Charles Daly 301, pump action, 20 inch barrel. It’s one of the multitude of Turkish shotguns coming into the US. The action seems pretty stiff, so before I take it out to shoot I’m going to get some jewelers rouge and polishing pad for the Dremel and do some refinement, then lube it good and reassemble. I may still do a build later when the used pumps are back on the market. I’d really like to do a Mossberg build, they have the smoothest action to me.

As you know, I'm not much of a shotgun guy, just having the one I've owned since a kid for sentimental reasons, I guess. I took a look at what you bought, and that would really be nice to have around the house. Hopefully they aren't too scarce, as you were seeing, and I might see if I can pick one up.

As you ALSO know, I am less-than-handy so I'd really like something that works out of the box pretty well, with no modifications or refinements. Would a Mossberg 20-gauge pump be the ticket? That Charles Daly looked really good.

[KeithKSR]

As you know, I'm not much of a shotgun guy, just having the one I've owned since a kid for sentimental reasons, I guess. I took a look at what you bought, and that would really be nice to have around the house. Hopefully they aren't too scarce, as you were seeing, and I might see if I can pick one up.

As you ALSO know, I am less-than-handy so I'd really like something that works out of the box pretty well, with no modifications or refinements. Would a Mossberg 20-gauge pump be the ticket? That Charles Daly looked really good.

I think the Mossberg’s have the smoothest action out of the box, at least out of those that would be in the sub $400 range.

There are a lot of the budget pumps out of Turkey. The Stevens 320 gets good reviews, not sure who makes it.

The Charles Daly would smooth out with a little lube and a break in period, I just want to shortcut the break in period.

00 buck is hard to find, but #4, #5 or #6 is good for home defense ranges.

[suncat05]

And PSA does post on that page.

I find gun forums and reviews/comments on products to be ridiculousness at best. I use Facebook to follow a few gun related people and products. But this is the only forum I will post anything on related to guns. We certainly have the most rationale and well spoken UK/Gun fans here. I'm not a really a "gun" person so I have some dumb questions sometimes and I ask those here. Until recently, I only had a SKS and a 12 single shot. All I ever needed and really, all I still need. But I do want to grow my collection some.

KentuckyWildcat, there are no dumb questions when it comes to guns.
Just ask. There are plenty of knowledgeable people on this forum that know their stuff about guns and gun related materials. And if they know the answer to your questions, they will readily assist you.
This is by far the best public conversation forum around. We talk about almost anything and everything here. This site is about as diverse as you will find. There are lots of folks from all walks of life that are honest and open about anything we talk about.
This site is about Kentucky sports, but that's just where we begin. Great people in this community.

[KeithKSR]

I did a little work on the Charles Daly. I didn’t have the jewelers rouge, so haven’t done any polishing. The bolt had a burr, so I removed it. I oiled anything that looked like it was rubbing and reassembled. I’m using a Lucas gun oil, it really seems to work well. The action is working better. I’ve yet to shoot it, but anticipate that it will continue to get smoother as the oil coats the internal slide rails.

[Darrell KSR]

Sounds good, Keith. When you get a chance to shoot it a little, be sure and post how you like it.

[dan_bgblue]

BTW, Dan, checked on the Charles Daly again since the 4th. Still nothing to report. Buds has gotten more of the Citadel Legacy Warthogs in, but prices have jumped to north of $400.

Located the Charles Daly 12 ga semi auto for $249.99 plus tax and any necessary fees. Just in case you are still interested.

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/shotguns/charles-daly-601-tactical-black-12ga-3in-semi-automatic-shotgun-185in/p/1625271

[KeithKSR]

Located the Charles Daly 12 ga semi auto for $249.99 plus tax and any necessary fees. Just in case you are still interested.

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/shotguns/charles-daly-601-tactical-black-12ga-3in-semi-automatic-shotgun-185in/p/1625271

Did you order one?

[dan_bgblue]

My plan is to make sure they have one in stock at either Lexington or Crescent Springs and then visit next week to handle it and then buy it if the feel is right for me. If that cant happen then I will order and have it shipped to Lex so I can play with it and keeping it or returning while I am at the store.

[KeithKSR]

My plan is to make sure they have one in stock at either Lexington or Crescent Springs and then visit next week to handle it and then buy it if the feel is right for me. If that cant happen then I will order and have it shipped to Lex so I can play with it and keeping it or returning while I am at the store.

Let me know how much you like it. I bought a Charles Daly 301 pump, but would sell it and buy the 601.

[Darrell KSR]

Uh oh. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210327/b2343a9ccfcc221a26b54c806acb6735.jpg

[KeithKSR]

Uh oh. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210327/b2343a9ccfcc221a26b54c806acb6735.jpg

They didn’t stay in stock very long. When I clicked the link earlier it was available.

[KeithKSR]

The Citadel is supposed to be a quay Rural King stores. https://www.rkguns.com/citadel-atac-12-gauge-semi-automatic-shotgun-katac1220-4-1-20.html?trk_msg=V9HCNQ6GA37K92QH6N485OJQQ4&trk_contact=7P8L8F5TNFOD2VBRS1S8QGIBKS&trk_sid=6FD1MKI5V6A314GE6ADF9296LS&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=31300436&utm_campaign=March+2021&utm_content=2021-03-21+Gotw

[dan_bgblue]

Dang it

[KeithKSR]

I’ve seen some favorable reviews on the Hatfield SAS that is sold at Walmart stores. Prices range from $206 to $236, they come in 12, 20, 28 and .410. The Walmart in Morehead had one in 20 gauge and one in 28 gauge on the shelf Saturday so I had the wife pick up the 20 gauge for me. $216 plus tax. They didn’t have any ammo, unfortunately. What 20 gauge I have on hand is regular small game loads, so I’m going to try to locate some 1300fps stuff to break it in with.

The Hatfield semiauto is one of the Turkish imports. I thought I’d use it for clay pigeons. My daughter got my SIL one of the target throwers for his birthday, and I thought the 20 gauge would be easier on the shoulders for shooting the clay pigeons. If it works out well I may spring for the 28 gauge for the daughters and my wife to use.

[KeithKSR]

We put a box of shells through the Hatfield SAS 20 gauge today. We were using 2 3/4” heavy field loads. The shells were at least 20 years old, and maybe as old as 34 years old. The only 20 gauge I’ve had is a single shot Winchester 37A I traded some scrap metal for back in 1987 and I don’t recall shooting it more than a few times.

Back on track. I was expecting some hiccups that are common to semiauto shotguns in the early going, but the little shotgun ran like a champ. The only issue I had was of my own fault in feeding shell into the magazine a couple of times I didn’t get the shells far enough into the magazine and the pushed out onto the lifter. This didn’t cause any issue with operation, it shot the chambered round and then loaded the round on the lifter. Ejection of spent rounds was strong, as it tossed the rounds out 12-15 feet.

Hatfields had issues with cracked forends, but that issue seems to have been resolved. For a $216 + tax semiautomatic shotgun, which is a comparable price to the low end pumps, the Hatfield performed surprisingly well. Obviously, at $216 the fit and finish isn’t the same as you would have on a $2000 Benelli, but if someone wants a functional shotgun at a budget price this is worth a look.

My wife took some shots at a few clays, and found the recoil very manageable. I would equate it to a single shot .410. She’s all in on getting a 28 gauge, which I think she should be able to get on the clays with a bit easier.

[Darrell KSR]

We put a box of shells through the Hatfield SAS 20 gauge today. We were using 2 3/4” heavy field loads. The shells were at least 20 years old, and maybe as old as 34 years old. The only 20 gauge I’ve had is a single shot Winchester 37A I traded some scrap metal for back in 1987 and I don’t recall shooting it more than a few times.

Back on track. I was expecting some hiccups that are common to semiauto shotguns in the early going, but the little shotgun ran like a champ. The only issue I had was of my own fault in feeding shell into the magazine a couple of times I didn’t get the shells far enough into the magazine and the pushed out onto the lifter. This didn’t cause any issue with operation, it shot the chambered round and then loaded the round on the lifter. Ejection of spent rounds was strong, as it tossed the rounds out 12-15 feet.

Hatfields had issues with cracked forends, but that issue seems to have been resolved. For a $216 + tax semiautomatic shotgun, which is a comparable price to the low end pumps, the Hatfield performed surprisingly well. Obviously, at $216 the fit and finish isn’t the same as you would have on a $2000 Benelli, but if someone wants a functional shotgun at a budget price this is worth a look.

My wife took some shots at a few clays, and found the recoil very manageable. I would equate it to a single shot .410. She’s all in on getting a 28 gauge, which I think she should be able to get on the clays with a bit easier.Great report. Intrigued with this one.

[KeithKSR]

Great report. Intrigued with this one.

It’s not a bad looking shotgun. The exchange rate with Turkey has enabled the importers to sell the Turkish shotguns at bargain prices

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[dan_bgblue]

The local Wally world stores are following the "we will not sell firearms" policy that the mother ship adopted a few years ago. Any other outlets for the Hatfield brand of weapons?

Thx