Am I in the minority?

[Doc]

Today there were many reports on the gun debate. Both sides discussed, those being the "pro-gun" and the "anti-gun". Me, I guess I'd fall into the "pro-gun" side but not because I'm "pro-gun" but rather pro-freedom. I see this the same way I see the abortion issue. I'm not "pro-abortion", just like I'm not "pro-gun". What I am is pro-I-don't-want-the-government-telling-adults-what-they-can-and-cannot-do.

[CattyWampus]

Since the words, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" are contained in The Bill Of Rights, maybe you're just pro-Constitution.

[Doc]

Since the words, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" are contained in The Bill Of Rights, maybe you're just pro-Constitution.

I can live with that. I gladly accept that definition.

[CitizenBBN]

I'm with you Doc. it's a convenience, but a misnomer IMO.

despite my fervor over the subject, I'm more than happy to consider ideas that don't begin by stripping law abiding citizens of their options but by stripping criminals of rights they decided to surrender through their actions.

I will say there is one way in which i am "pro gun" and not just pro 2nd Amendment. the 2nd Amendment was there primarily as a right to be the last protection against tyranny if all the other checks and balances failed. it is a focus on the people versus the state.

I'm behind that, but also from a self defense and safety view i'm "pro gun' in the sense that i think I should have one and they're a good idea for most other law abiding citizens. I'm thus "pro" people not only having the right to have them but pro their actually having them.

the 2nd amendment issue is critical, and having the ability to defend ourselves from those who the state clearly cannot remove from our society is a really good idea.

[KeithKSR]

I'm very pro-keep the government out of everybody's business.

[UKHistory]

I toured the holocaust museum a couple of years ago. One display showed the weapons stolen and many made by the Polish jews who fought back. People and governments are capable of horrible, horrible acts.

People have the right to own weapons for defense (forget hunting for food or for those who consider it a sport). Call me paranoid but this nation was founded in revolution and that spirit of innate distrust of government is why we have the Bill of Rights.

[CitizenBBN]

I toured the holocaust museum a couple of years ago. One display showed the weapons stolen and many made by the Polish jews who fought back. People and governments are capable of horrible, horrible acts.

People have the right to own weapons for defense (forget hunting for food or for those who consider it a sport). Call me paranoid but this nation was founded in revolution and that spirit of innate distrust of government is why we have the Bill of Rights.

iMO the problem is that far too many people see such extreme occurrences as something that 'can never happen' so they dismiss the need.

I'm not saying we'll have another holocaust, and even the founders didn't see an armed citizenry as the first line of defense against tyranny. they had better hopes imo for their new government than that, but they wanted an armed citizenry as the last line of defense for when everything else failed.

no right now, today, there is little risk of widespread armed repression by our government, but if we give up that last line of defense now we don't get a do over if those risks do go up.

Hitler and Franco and Mousillini rose to power through the democratic process and were born of extreme economic distress. it didn't take an invading army or a force of arms, those nations voted in their own oppressors out of economic suffering. is it so insane to say that at some point the US could see that kind of distress?

do we want to give up our guns and get little or nothing by way of safety in return and simply hope nothing so bad happens to this country that we need that armed citizenry?

[UKHistory]

I don't think it was coincidence that the we were given the right to speak and assemble and pray and read what we choose and then given the right to have weapons.

Having a gund was #2 on the top 10 list for a reason and we should never, never allow a government to take that away.

Drugs and mental illness are the major problem here. Crazy people or rather people on drugs that make them crazy do crazy things. I know plenty of gun owners and collectors who have not killed anyone ever.

[CitizenBBN]

I don't think it was coincidence that the we were given the right to speak and assemble and pray and read what we choose and then given the right to have weapons.

Having a gund was #2 on the top 10 list for a reason and we should never, never allow a government to take that away.



Agreed. We're talking about people who picked up arms to fight their government. Many of them fought in the war directly, picking up arms, others funded the purchase of arms or the smuggling of arms or the supplying of powder for arms.

They earned their liberty at the point of a gun. They knew exactly what a well armed citizenry was for and its importance. It damned sure wasn't about states having a national guard. sorry but the idea that men who distrusted government so much would simply assign such a power to other governments and not the People is silly. When a Justice says that was the meaning, he/she is just looking for ways to ignore the will of the Founders. As if serving officers of the Continental Army who relied on volunteers with their own guns to fight a war would be afraid of people having guns?

The Founders were beyond clear in the importance they placed on an armed citizenry that could stand against government tyranny. I agree it was 2nd on the list for a reason.

[suncat05]

Given that Hitler, Mussolini and Franco were elected, and that as a result of those elections that a World War ensued, and that it was us(Americans)that eventually liberated them from their own mistakes(Hitler & Mussolini, not the Spanish with Franco),then if we do the same to ourselves it begs the question as to who comes to our aid? But I already know that answer, and it is not one that suits me in any manner.
There will be no one to help America should we lose that particular right. And then what? That is why it is so important that our Constitution and all of its ideals, as our Founding Fathers intended, remain as it is. There can be no compromise to that.

[Doc]

I don't think it was coincidence that the we were given the right to speak and assemble and pray and read what we choose and then given the right to have weapons.

Having a gund was #2 on the top 10 list for a reason and we should never, never allow a government to take that away.

Drugs and mental illness are the major problem here. Crazy people or rather people on drugs that make them crazy do crazy things. I know plenty of gun owners and collectors who have not killed anyone ever.

I also know plenty of people who are on medications that have never killed anybody either. Ditto for mental illness. Heck, I'm on one medication that has "thoughts of suicide" listed as possible side effect but I'm not thinking I'm gonna blow my brains out any time soon. So while many want to put the emphasis on anything but guns, areas like mental health, drugs, etc... guns are a contributory factor. Many on the left wants to focus soley on guns while many on the right want focus soley on anything but guns, reality is its both.

However I go back to the point of the OP which is that some folks can be like me and not be pro-gun however support what the constitution and bill of rights guarantees. To me the one of the most difficult things to do is to go against your personal beliefs to protect others rights. I'm not ever going to own a gun because I believe they are too dangerous however our founding fathers founded this nation on individual freedoms. I will always go against government intrusion into one private life and personal decisions.

[ColonelSteve]

Alcohol was once banned, people still did it and the result was the beginning of organized crime.
Marijuana is banned, people still do it and the result has been the beginning of petty crimes, people in prison for years for one joint in their possession, people dying because of a drug deal gone bad.

What good is banning guns? People are still gonna have guns, you're still gonna have crooked cops trying to make an extra buck, selling these to more criminals, all this is doing is taking the guns out of the innocent, criminals dont follow laws anyway, how is this gonna stop them from getting their hands on a gun?

[KeithKSR]

I also know plenty of people who are on medications that have never killed anybody either. Ditto for mental illness. Heck, I'm on one medication that has "thoughts of suicide" listed as possible side effect but I'm not thinking I'm gonna blow my brains out any time soon. So while many want to put the emphasis on anything but guns, areas like mental health, drugs, etc... guns are a contributory factor. Many on the left wants to focus soley on guns while many on the right want focus soley on anything but guns, reality is its both.

Doc, lots of people are on medications that alter mental status, in today's world it is not at all unusual due to the stresses placed on people for anti-anxiety meds to be given. It is troublesome that so many of the youth are given mood altering medications and are not monitored closely enough for side effects. A huge number of the people that have been involved in school violence have been on ritalin, prozac, zoloft, etc.

The problem I see is that is the incidence of people taking these medications that commit these violent acts large enough to enact legislation on many to protect a few? Should the government have access to medical records to the extent that they can prevent exercising of a Constitutional right due to taking a certain medication?

I am wary of taking away any rights of the individual through rash actions brought about by emotional responses.

I do think there is a rush to medicate American youths and that there is not enough known about how these medications impact a developing brain. What seems even more unusual is that when you toss the mood altering medications in with violent video games in which the youth becomes a first person participant there seem to be an unusually high number of school shooters who fit into both categories.

[ColonelSteve]

School Shooting Prozac WITHDRAWAL 2008-02-15 Illinois ** 6 Dead: 15 Wounded: Perpetrator Was in Withdrawal from Med & Acting Erratically
School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 2005-03-24 Minnesota **10 Dead: 7 Wounded: Dosage Increased One Week before Rampage
School Shooting Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2001-03-10 Pennsylvania **14 Year Old GIRL Shoots & Wounds Classmate at Catholic School
School Shooting Zoloft Antidepressant & ADHD Med 2011-07-11 Alabama **14 Year Old Kills Fellow Middle School Student
School Shooting Zoloft Antidepressant 1995-10-12 South Carolina **15 Year Old Shoots Two Teachers, Killing One: Then Kills Himself
School Shooting Med For Depression 2009-03-13 Germany **16 Dead Including Shooter: Antidepressant Use: Shooter in Treatment For Depression
School Hostage Situation Med For Depression 2010-12-15 France **17 Year Old with Sword Holds 20 Children & Teacher Hostage
School Shooting Plot Med For Depression WITHDRAWAL 2008-08-28 Texas **18 Year Old Plots a Columbine School Attack
School Shooting Anafranil Antidepressant 1988-05-20 Illinois **29 Year Old WOMAN Kills One Child: Wounds Five: Kills Self
School Shooting Luvox/Zoloft Antidepressants 1999-04-20 Colorado **COLUMBINE: 15 Dead: 24 Wounded
School Stabbings Antidepressants 2001-06-09 Japan **Eight Dead: 15 Wounded: Assailant Had Taken 10 Times his Normal Dose of Depression Med
School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 1998-05-21 Oregon **Four Dead: Twenty Injured
School Stabbing Med For Depression 2011-10-25 Washington **Girl, 15, Stabs Two Girls in School Restroom: 1 Is In Critical Condition
School Shooting Antidepressant 2006-09-30 Colorado **Man Assaults Girls: Kills One & Self
School Machete Attack Med for Depression 2001-09-26 Pennsylvania **Man Attacks 11 Children & 3 Teachers at Elementary School
School Shooting Related Luvox 1993-07-23 Florida **Man Commits Murder During Clinical Trial for Luvox: Same Drug as in COLUMBINE: Never Reported
School Hostage Situation Cymbalta Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2009-11-09 New York **Man With Gun Inside School Holds Principal Hostage
School Shooting Antidepressants 1992-09-20 Texas **Man, Angry Over Daughter's Report Card, Shoots 14 Rounds inside Elementary School
School Shooting SSRI 2010-02-19 Finland **On Sept. 23, 2008 a Finnish Student Shot & Killed 9 Students Before Killing Himself
School Shooting Threat Med for Depression* 2004-10-19 New Jersey **Over-Medicated Teen Brings Loaded Handguns to School
School Shooting Antidepressant? 2007-04-18 Virginia **Possible SSRI Use: 33 Dead at Virginia Tech
School Shooting Antidepressant? 2002-01-17 Virginia **Possible SSRI Withdrawal Mania: 3 Dead at Law School
School Incident/Bizarre Zoloft* 2010-08-22 Australia **School Counselor Exhibits Bizarre Behavior: Became Manic On Zoloft
School/Assault Antidepressant 2009-11-04 California **School Custodian Assaults Student & Principal: Had Manic Reaction From Depression Med
School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 1992-01-30 Michigan **School Teacher Shoots & Kills His Superintendent at School
School Shooting Threats Celexa Antidepressant 2010-01-25 Virginia **Senior in High School Theatens to Kill 4 Classmates: Facebook Involved: Bail Denied
School Violence/Murder Antidepressants* 1998-05-04 New York **Sheriff's Deputy Shoots his Wife in an Elementary School
School Knifing/Murder Meds For Depression & ADHD 2010-04-28 Massachusetts **Sixteen Year Old Kills 15 Year Old in High School Bathroom in Sept. 2009
School Stabbing Wellbutrin 2006-12-04 Indiana **Stabbing by 17 Year Old At High School: Charged with Attempted Murder
School Threat Antidepressants 2007-04-23 Mississippi **Student Arrested for Making School Threat Over Internet
School Suspension Lexapro Antidepressant 2007-07-28 Arkansas **Student Has 11 Incidents with Police During his 16 Months on Lexapro
School Shooting Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-11-07 Finland **Student Kills 8: Wounds 10: Kills Self: High School in Finland
School Shooting Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2004-02-09 New York **Student Shoots Teacher in Leg at School
School Threat Prozac Antidepressant 2008-01-25 Washington **Student Takes Loaded Shotgun & 3 Rifles to School Parking Lot: Plans Suicide
School Shooting Plot Med For Depression 1998-12-01 Wisconsin **Teen Accused of Plotting to Gun Down Students at School
School/Assault Zoloft Antidepressant 2006-02-15 Tennessee **Teen Attacks Teacher at School
School Shooting Threat Antidepressant 1999-04-16 Idaho **Teen Fires Gun in School
School Hostage Situation Paxil & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-15 Washington **Teen Holds Classmates Hostage with a Gun
School Hostage Situation Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2006-11-28 North Carolina **Teen Holds Teacher & Student Hostage with Gun
School Knife Attack Med for Depression 2006-12-06 Indiana **Teen Knife Attacks Fellow Student
School Massacre Plot Prozac Withdrawal 2011-02-23 Virginia **Teen Sentenced to 12 Years in Prison For Columbine Style Plot
School Shooting Celexa & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-19 California **Teen Shoots at Classmates in School
School Shooting Celexa Antidepressant 2006-08-30 North Carolina **Teen Shoots at Two Students: Kills his Father: Celexa Found Among his Personal Effects
School Shooting Meds For Depression & ADHD 2011-03-18 South Carolina **Teen Shoots School Official: Pipe Bombs Found in Backpack
School Shooting Threat Antidepressant 2003-05-31 Michigan **Teen Threatens School Shooting: Charge is Terrorism
School Stand-Off Zoloft Antidepressant 1998-04-13 Idaho **Teen [14 Years Old] in School Holds Police At Bay: Fires Shots
School Shooting Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-10-12 Ohio **Teen [14 Years Old] School Shooter Possibly on Antidepressants or In Withdrawal
School Threat Antidepressants 2008-03-20 Indiana **Teen [16 Years Old] Brings Gun to School: There Is a Lockdown
School Suicide/Lockdown Med For Depression 2008-02-20 Idaho **Teen [16 Years Old] Kills Self at High School: Lockdown by Police
School Threats Prozac Antidepressant 1999-10-19 Florida **Teen [16 Years Old] Threatens Classmates With Knife & Fake Explosives
School Stabbing Med For Depression 2008-02-29 Texas **Teen [17 Year Old GIRL] Stabs Friend & Principal at High School
School Hostage Situation Prozac/ Paxil Antidepressants 2001-01-18 California **Teen [17 Years Old] Takes Girl Hostage at School: He is Killed by Police
School Knife Attack Treatment For Depression & Strattera 2009-03-10 Belgium **Three Dead in School Day Care: Two Children & a Caregiver: Happened Jan 23, 2009
School Shooting Plot Antidepressants 2009-09-22 England **Two English School Boys Plot to Blow Up High School
School Arson Incidents Paxil 2002-04-12 Michigan **Unusual Personality Change on Paxil Caused 15 Year Old to Set Fires inside High School
School Bomb Threat Med For Depression 2009-06-29 Australia **Vexed Father Makes Bomb Threat Against Elementary School
School Violence Antidepressant 2005-11-19 Arizona **Violent 8 Year Old GIRL Handcuffed by Police at School
School Violence Celexa Antidepressant 2002-01-23 Florida **Violent 8 Year-Old Boy Arrested At School
School Threat/Lockdown Lexapro* 2008-04-18 California **Violent High School Student Shot to Death on Campus by Police
School / Child Endangerment Antidepressants 2008-02-27 Canada **Wacky School Bus Driver Goes Berserk: Also Involved Painkillers
School Violence Paxil 2004-10-23 Washington DC **Young Boy, 10 Year Old, Has Violent Incidents at School
School Threat Wellbutrin Antidepressant 2007-04-24 Tennessee **Young Boy, 12, Threatens to Shoot Others at School
School Hostage Situation Med for Depression 2006-03-09 France **Young Ex-Teacher Holds 21 Students Hostage
School Shooting/Suicide Celexa 2002-10-07 Texas **Young Girl [13 Years Old] Kills Self at School With a Gun
School Hostage Situation Paxil 2001-10-12 North Carolina **Young Man Holds Three People Hostage in Duke University President's Office
School Murder Attempt Med For Depression 1995-03-04 California **Young Woman Deliberately Hits 3 Kids with Her Car at Elementary School: Laughed During Attack

[ColonelSteve]

http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

[CitizenBBN]

Good link.

SSRIs weren't designed for use by children. They can be effective, and I have seen first hand the benefits of SSRIs. But they do have side effects and among children the risks are higher. They can save and improve lives, it just requires more monitoring and most important not just using them to avoid doing a thorough medical assessment of the person and monitored treatment.

Of course the correlation need not be causative. It could be predictive. Obviously you're having issues to be prescribed SSRIs, it could be a simple matter of the obvious fact that people who gun down children in schools are clearly troubled. It's likely that those with such severe troubles will have been treated in some way and probably prescribed medications.

Just like with guns, taking such a medication doesn't mean you're going to kill someone, any more than owning a gun does. So why are these groups aiming at guns and not meds? Medications aren't constitutionally guaranteed, we already have an extensive tracking system for their access, and best of all...... they are consumed and there are no stockpiles so any changes to policy can have fairly immediate impact on the situation.

Guns will work 100 years from now, it would take decades or more for even Feinstein's draconian plan to reduce the number of assault weapons and magazines to any degree, but we can change the rules on how SSRIs are prescribed to children and in 30 days the changes will impact 99% of those we want to impact.

As I said, this gun control push has nothing to do with protecting children. If we really worried about that we'd be reviewing things that could actually work like examining the treatment of the most troubled cases, in this case a kid who was so troubled the school assigned a person to monitor him constantly.

[KeithKSR]

Just like with guns, taking such a medication doesn't mean you're going to kill someone, any more than owning a gun does. So why are these groups aiming at guns and not meds? Medications aren't constitutionally guaranteed, we already have an extensive tracking system for their access, and best of all...... they are consumed and there are no stockpiles so any changes to policy can have fairly immediate impact on the situation.

It has nothing to do with school violence, or children being killed. It is all about banning guns that certain wealthy people on the left don't think Joe and Jill Citizen should own so that they can more easily impose their draconian rule. Marxism dictates that disarmament be accomplished to further collectivism. Not only is the left not above taking advantage of situations to further their agendas, but "Fast and Furious" showed us the administration is not above people dying to further the agenda.

[jazyd]

ding, ding ding, winner.

Feinstein had a concealed permit, the Hollywood types have armed body guards, many of the anti gun leftists have guns that don't talk about for their protection, and while they claim they dont' want to take away the rights of hunters it is a total lie as most of them are anti hunting and animal right activists, so they will chip away at the smaller things, magazines, assault weapons, higher taxes on ammo, all to drive out the ability to own a gun for protection, for sport, to hunt. The democrats and left are way smarter than republicans and NRA folks with their choice of words.
They own the media so most never hear about Fast and furious, don't hear about the mom with twin girls who protected themselves and saved her kids lives by shooting an intruder, or the grandma who shot an intruder or any number of people who have protected themselves by owning a gun. Nor do they talk about the Pearl HS shooter who killed his mom first with a bat and knife before using a regular riflt to shoot kids at school and was stopped by the asst principle who had a .45 pistol in his truck.

And Obama and his administration in many ways are closer to Hilter than we want to think, bad economy, gift to speak, runs over the constitution at every opportunity, armed thugs in Mexico in order to use that to take away our right to own guns here, allowed our 4 men in Libya to be killed, rarely voted as a senator to keep those votes from being used against himself, refuses to negotiate, his way or the highway, taking advantage of a dumbdowned soceity, increasing the number of people depending on government assistance. You name it, he does it.



It has nothing to do with school violence, or children being killed. It is all about banning guns that certain wealthy people on the left don't think Joe and Jill Citizen should own so that they can more easily impose their draconian rule. Marxism dictates that disarmament be accomplished to further collectivism. Not only is the left not above taking advantage of situations to further their agendas, but "Fast and Furious" showed us the administration is not above people dying to further the agenda.

[Doc]

School Shooting Prozac WITHDRAWAL 2008-02-15 Illinois ** 6 Dead: 15 Wounded: Perpetrator Was in Withdrawal from Med & Acting Erratically--used a gun?
School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 2005-03-24 Minnesota **10 Dead: 7 Wounded: Dosage Increased One Week before Rampage--used a gun?
School Shooting Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2001-03-10 Pennsylvania **14 Year Old GIRL Shoots & Wounds Classmate at Catholic School--used a gun
School Shooting Zoloft Antidepressant & ADHD Med 2011-07-11 Alabama **14 Year Old Kills Fellow Middle School Student--used a gun
School Shooting Zoloft Antidepressant 1995-10-12 South Carolina **15 Year Old Shoots Two Teachers, Killing One: Then Kills Himself--used a gun
School Shooting Med For Depression 2009-03-13 Germany **16 Dead Including Shooter: Antidepressant Use: Shooter in Treatment For Depression--used a gun
School Hostage Situation Med For Depression 2010-12-15 France **17 Year Old with Sword Holds 20 Children & Teacher Hostage--didn't used a gun
School Shooting Plot Med For Depression WITHDRAWAL --used a gun?
2008-08-28 Texas **18 Year Old Plots a Columbine School Attack
School Shooting Anafranil Antidepressant--used a gun?
1988-05-20 Illinois **29 Year Old WOMAN Kills One Child: Wounds Five: Kills Self
School Shooting Luvox/Zoloft Antidepressants 1999-04-20 Colorado **COLUMBINE: 15 Dead: 24 Wounded--used a gun?
School Stabbings Antidepressants 2001-06-09 Japan **Eight Dead: 15 Wounded: Assailant Had Taken 10 Times his Normal Dose of Depression Med--didn't used a gun
School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 1998-05-21 Oregon **Four Dead: Twenty Injured--used a gun?
School Stabbing Med For Depression 2011-10-25 Washington **Girl, 15, Stabs Two Girls in School Restroom: 1 Is In Critical Condition--didn't used a gun
School Shooting Antidepressant 2006-09-30 Colorado **Man Assaults Girls: Kills One & Self--used a gun?
School Machete Attack Med for Depression 2001-09-26 Pennsylvania **Man Attacks 11 Children & 3 Teachers at Elementary School--didn't used a gun?
School Shooting Related Luvox 1993-07-23 Florida **Man Commits Murder During Clinical Trial for Luvox: Same Drug as in COLUMBINE: Never Reported--used a gun?
School Hostage Situation Cymbalta Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2009-11-09 New York **Man With Gun Inside School Holds Principal Hostage--used a gun?
School Shooting Antidepressants 1992-09-20 Texas **Man, Angry Over Daughter's Report Card, Shoots 14 Rounds inside Elementary School--used a gun?
School Shooting SSRI 2010-02-19 Finland **On Sept. 23, 2008 a Finnish Student Shot & Killed 9 Students Before Killing Himself--used a gun?
School Shooting Threat Med for Depression* 2004-10-19 New Jersey **Over-Medicated Teen Brings Loaded Handguns to School--used a gun?
School Shooting Antidepressant? 2007-04-18 Virginia **Possible SSRI Use: 33 Dead at Virginia Tech--used a gun?
School Shooting Antidepressant? 2002-01-17 Virginia **Possible SSRI Withdrawal Mania: 3 Dead at Law School--used a gun?
School Incident/Bizarre Zoloft* 2010-08-22 Australia **School Counselor Exhibits Bizarre Behavior: Became Manic On Zoloft--really, bizarre behavior?
School/Assault Antidepressant 2009-11-04 California **School Custodian Assaults Student & Principal: Had Manic Reaction From Depression Med--used a gun?
School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 1992-01-30 Michigan **School Teacher Shoots & Kills His Superintendent at School--used a gun?
School Shooting Threats Celexa Antidepressant 2010-01-25 Virginia **Senior in High School Theatens to Kill 4 Classmates: Facebook Involved: Bail Denied--threaten to use a gun?
School Violence/Murder Antidepressants* 1998-05-04 New York **Sheriff's Deputy Shoots his Wife in an Elementary School--used a gun?
School Knifing/Murder Meds For Depression & ADHD 2010-04-28 Massachusetts **Sixteen Year Old Kills 15 Year Old in High School Bathroom in Sept. 2009--didn't use a gun
School Stabbing Wellbutrin 2006-12-04 Indiana **Stabbing by 17 Year Old At High School: Charged with Attempted Murder--didn't use a gun
School Threat Antidepressants 2007-04-23 Mississippi **Student Arrested for Making School Threat Over Internet
School Suspension Lexapro Antidepressant 2007-07-28 Arkansas **Student Has 11 Incidents with Police During his 16 Months on Lexapro--internet threatening? Now can we list all the cases of internet threatening where the threatener wasn't on anti-depressants
School Shooting Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-11-07 Finland **Student Kills 8: Wounds 10: Kills Self: High School in Finland--used a gun? --used a gun?
School Shooting Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant 2004-02-09 New York **Student Shoots Teacher in Leg at School--used a gun?
School Threat Prozac Antidepressant 2008-01-25 Washington **Student Takes Loaded Shotgun & 3 Rifles to School Parking Lot: Plans Suicide--used a gun?
School Shooting Plot Med For Depression 1998-12-01 Wisconsin **Teen Accused of Plotting to Gun Down Students at School--used a gun?
School/Assault Zoloft Antidepressant 2006-02-15 Tennessee **Teen Attacks Teacher at School--did he use a gun?
School Shooting Threat Antidepressant 1999-04-16 Idaho **Teen Fires Gun in School--used a gun?
School Hostage Situation Paxil & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-15 Washington **Teen Holds Classmates Hostage with a Gun--used a gun?
School Hostage Situation Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2006-11-28 North Carolina **Teen Holds Teacher & Student Hostage with Gun--used a gun?
School Knife Attack Med for Depression 2006-12-06 Indiana **Teen Knife Attacks Fellow Student--used a knife
School Massacre Plot Prozac Withdrawal 2011-02-23 Virginia **Teen Sentenced to 12 Years in Prison For Columbine Style Plot--used a gun?
School Shooting Celexa & Effexor Antidepressants 2001-04-19 California **Teen Shoots at Classmates in School--used a gun?
School Shooting Celexa Antidepressant 2006-08-30 North Carolina **Teen Shoots at Two Students: Kills his Father: Celexa Found Among his Personal Effects--used a gun?
School Shooting Meds For Depression & ADHD 2011-03-18 South Carolina **Teen Shoots School Official: Pipe Bombs Found in Backpack--used a gun?
School Shooting Threat Antidepressant 2003-05-31 Michigan **Teen Threatens School Shooting: Charge is Terrorism--used a gun?
School Stand-Off Zoloft Antidepressant 1998-04-13 Idaho **Teen [14 Years Old] in School Holds Police At Bay: Fires Shots--used a gun?
School Shooting Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2007-10-12 Ohio **Teen [14 Years Old] School Shooter Possibly on Antidepressants or In Withdrawal--used a gun?
School Threat Antidepressants 2008-03-20 Indiana **Teen [16 Years Old] Brings Gun to School: There Is a Lockdown--used a gun?
School Suicide/Lockdown Med For Depression 2008-02-20 Idaho **Teen [16 Years Old] Kills Self at High School: Lockdown by Police--used a gun?
School Threats Prozac Antidepressant 1999-10-19 Florida **Teen [16 Years Old] Threatens Classmates With Knife & Fake Explosives--used a knife?
School Stabbing Med For Depression 2008-02-29 Texas **Teen [17 Year Old GIRL] Stabs Friend & Principal at High School--used a knife
School Hostage Situation Prozac/ Paxil Antidepressants 2001-01-18 California **Teen [17 Years Old] Takes Girl Hostage at School: He is Killed by Police--used a gun?

ETC........




Now out of fairness, shall we list all the cases of school violence with a gun where anti-depressents were not involved?

My point is, was and will continue to be that there are multiple factors in these shootings. One of those is guns. In fact I suspect the number one common factor in school shootings is a gun. Realistically its very hard to have a school shooting without a gun. Some of the shooters might be on meds, some might be depressed, some might be mentally ill, some might be bullies or outcasts. Dealing with any of those factors is great and a worthwhile approach. But that does not change the fact that a gun was used.

[ColonelSteve]

How can it be a shooting if a gun is not used? Death by shot dice?

[CitizenBBN]

In fact I suspect the number one common factor in school shootings is a gun.

Given that the definition of "gun" legally varies somewhat, I'd guess the #1 common factor in school shootings is the school. lol.

So if we decentralized education and got rid of these gatherings of kids we'd be 100% sure of eliminating school shootings. :)

I don't know if anyone is suggesting they are "the" factor, I'm sure they aren't. but they very well may be a statistically significant factor and that has clear policy implications.

We know guns are used in shootings, not sure how that helps us. It may help to know which guns and if they are the only guns that could be used, etc., but we're looking for what we can do policy wise to make things better so we have to look at factors like drug use to see if we can find solutions.

I agree with you though there's no single root cause. There's never one cause or method of evil in the world. but policy wise it seems obvious we should focus on treatment of mental illness given the correlation. Don't focus just on that, but at least focus on things that have something to do with these cases.

For example Obama wants universal background checks. Why? Va Tech, Aurora, now Newtown, none of those guns were obtained through private transactions that got around background checks. Why ask for something that isn't a factor in these shootings?

I guarantee drugs are more highly correlated with these shootings than private gun transactions. The latter is 0% for the three most cited shootings.

So yes there are multiple factors. I just want us to stick to those and not use these horrors as an excuse to do things that aren't even close to being factors in their occurrence.

[Doc]

at least somebody got the joke.


I know the liberals/progressives want to focus 100% on gun control while the gun advocates want to focus on anything and everything but gun restriction. One of the tactics commonly employed by gun advocates is to shift to mental illness and drugs as the cause or main factor, so lets go that route. Several of the posts in the gun control treads suggest that medications are a factor. So what is the solution, or partial solution, that advocates would offer? What is the gun advocates suggestions for possible solutions to that problem? Is it not allowing folks who are on prozac or zoloft or elavil or other psychotropic drugs to not own guns? Would the NRA or ACLU go for that (rhetorical question)? What about drugs who side effects include aggressive behavior? 30 years ago I was on theophyline for asthma/allergies (when I started vet school). Made me very very irritable, irritable enough that they took me off of it after a week because I was so aggitated (even more than normal). Should that preclude me from owning a gun while on that med, and how do we determine what meds are included? Does it preclude me from ever owning a gun even if off the meds for years since I could end up back on it?
As for mental health, same rules apply? If you've ever seen a shrink, does that put you on the "banned from owning a gun" list? Does the NRA or ACLU go for that (rhetorical question)? Does implementing that make folks less likely to reach out for help with mental issues? What level of help falls into review? Psychologist? Psychiatrist? Priest? School counsiler? letter to dear abby?

I'm not attempting to be a smart ass in the above, only hoping that those who suggest its a drug issue or mental health issue offer something more than "its not guns, its all this stuff". Gun advocates want to shoot down any suggestions made by the other side and come back with the its not guns but rather drugs or mental health etc.... yet seldom offer any type of solution. They claim increased background checks won't help, increased license won't help, but seldom offer any solution other than let everybody roam the street packing a 6 shooter and get rid of "gun free" zones (let me say that there is ZERO chance that a public school would be declared a gun free zone and if it ever was I can promise most parents would take their child out of that school), etc... Well what realistic suggestion would help? Lets be a bit more creative than enforcing the gun laws already on the books. Lets look affecting what gun advocates propose as the factors of gun violence in schools (aka everything but guns).

Personally I believe radicals on both sides of the issue are misguided. I don't believe that banning guns would work (nor would it be constitutional) nor do I believe having 15 armed private citizens in Showcase Cinemas is the answer.

[CitizenBBN]

Surprisingly Doc I tend to agree. First off I don't think the mental health side is any easier to address than the gun side. No people on anti-depressants shouldn't be prohibited from having a gun. that's just the other side of the gun control argument that we ban guns from everyone b/c a few are using them to hurt others. Banning guns from a whole group when only a tiny, minute fraction are the problem is unacceptable regardless of what we're banning or with what group.

i'm pushing the mental health side b/c it should be included in the debate. we're talking about incremental steps in both cases. Obama did in fact address some of those on both sides with the exec orders. reporting of issues to the NICS system is an incremental step, just like prosecuting people who lie on their firearms paperwork.

I just want to see those things on the table too when they say "all options are on the table." I'm not saying the NRA doesn't deflect, they do, but I do understand their reasons b/c guns and the NRA in particular are the constant targets whenever these things happen. I have supported them being more "reasonable" on some things but like we both know and agree, the government is a one way street so they fight every advance of it b/c they know if they give in on that roadblock they wont' stop until they are up against the most serious ones.

Yes that's more political than constructive policy, but I understand why they do it.

I don't think there are any easy answers, just like there are none to the drug problem short of giving up and legalizing them. We have a fundamental problem in this country with violence and public safety: it is in inherent conflict with liberty. we allow a level of privacy and personal decision making that makes it impossible to prevent drug trafficking and gun trafficking and every other kind of activity.

so everything we do to address these things will be incremental b/c the "solutions" are more unacceptable due to the means that would have to be used. Mental health will be no different.

IMO the obvious mental health one is when a doctor deems a person to be a danger to others. that's already "in the system" as it were, it needs to be reported to NICS immediately so they can't go out and buy a gun. Once the doctor says they aren't a danger, that roadblock is cleared.

Imperfect for sure, but more likely to help than the assault weapons ban.

I applaud Obama for having some of these things on his list of orders. I really do, and I can't believe he has any. I think he avoided the entertainment industry for obvious political reasons, but at least he did address some mental health related options.

[CitizenBBN]

at least somebody got the joke.


Glad we're on the same wavelength. :) In truth we agree about the majority of this issue, which is cool b/c it's a good sign people can in fact work constructively on tough, emotional issues even with differences. Maybe you and I should be given power to work this one out. I guarantee we'd come up with something better than anyone else in the issue.

one thing re the mental health side -- I wish there would be more investigation of drug use to treat children regardless of violence or guns. I'm very concerned about giving brain chemistry altering meds to children when the drugs weren't developed for their brain chemistry. that includes violence but also just overall development and health impact as well as them being used to avoid tougher but more effective treatments.

I think it's a factor in these incidents but also a factor in overall development and even cultural acceptance of how we raise children.

[Doc]

Surprisingly Doc I tend to agree.

Why is that surprising? You can be right every now and then! :fam24:

[CitizenBBN]

Why is that surprising? You can be right every now and then! :fam24:

not according to my wife or mother. :happy0002: