9/11 - And today’s politics

[ukpumacat]

Today just made me super frustrated and sad. Frustrated at the stupid news and twitter on both sides of the aisle. And sad at how bad things have gotten.
I remember so well post 9/11 and how United we were as a nation.
Certainly, we still had great political differences. But man, when George W went on that mound and threw that pitch it was so damn powerful.
I disagreed with many of his policies and hated the Iraq war. But he was/is a good man. I do believe that. That didn’t make him void of political dishonesty or making bad decisions, but he was a good man.
Obama was too. Don’t care what others say but I believe it. He’s a man of faith and he’s an incredible family man. He represented himself and our country well. And he treated people with dignity (still does). Obviously, many disagreed with his policies. But he’s a good man (again, not void of political dishonesty or making bad decisions).
Bill Clinton...eh...not so much. Ha

Anyways, for 16 years I felt we had a man in the Oval Office I was proud of (even if I wasn’t proud of the policy). Wasn’t embarrassed about. My kids could look up to them and respect them.
I hate that we don’t have that now. I hate it more than I care about the economy or my taxes. The political discourse on both sides has devolved completely into idiocy and outright embarrassment.
ALL of our media is biased and just gross. I can’t watch any of it anymore no matter the channel. The “good ones” (as rare as they are) in government have become complacent. On both sides.
Yes, we have always been divided. Yes, the media has always been biased. Yes, politicians have always bent the truth and leveled some heavy attacks on one another. Yes, we’ve had some low quality individuals as President. Yes, we have always disagreed.

But not like this. This is different. People can’t talk. People don’t listen. People can’t respect anything about the other side. Dems can’t call George W a good man (and crucified him when he was President) and Reps can’t call Obama a good man (and crucify him still).
It’s just so sad that we have devolved to this. It’s truly embarrassing. And I hate that my kids have to watch it.
And I get my own hypocrisy. I am saying this with the full awareness that I said above “we don’t have that now”. But we don’t. Trump is not that.
I would literally sign a petition/agreement right now (as a Democrat) that I will put a Republican in office for the next 8 years if Trump is out.
Give me Sasse. Give me Rubio. Give me Kasich any day of the week. Give me Romney even. Give me 8 years of them. I would literally trade that right now for the guarantee Trump won’t be back.
And that is 100% not a political statement (clearly as I don’t agree with any of the above). I simply want my kids to respect our President once again. And I want to stop being embarrassed. (And I totally understand the media will still be biased and we will still be divided. But surely the man in the highest office should at least be respectable. Even if I hate their policy).
This is way beyond politics to me. I believe strongly in some of my political viewpoints. And some topics are incredibly personal to me. But I genuinely believe there are some things more important than those things. And my heart hurts for where we are. The ends do not justify these means. And I care a lot about the ends. But the means have become...way more than mean.
On a day that United us 18 years ago, all I heard all day was finger pointing, stupid twitter rants (starting with our president) and hypocritical diatribes about the “other side”.
I’m just so over it. And I want someone in the Oval Office who is too busy to tweet and too honorable to be “the worst of us”.
We need an example. We need goodness again. Honor matters.

Kasich (insert almost any Republican name here) 2020. Sign me up. I think millions of other Independents and Dems would join me.
No debate needed. Just put them on the ballot and you have my vote.

[Catonahottinroof]

To me the problems you note are exactly the problems that skew your thinking to your conclusion.
Strip away the brash, buffoonery that Trump exudes and look at the policy he has implemented.
He is fairly moderate despite how it’s reported by then media. Unfortunately he tweets because the media is agenda driven and that agenda is not in step with the majority of the populous.

[KSRBEvans]

There are people who will vote next year who not only don't remember 9/11 but weren't born on 9/11. I find it interesting that many of these young voters gravitate toward the AOCs of the Democratic party and are increasingly tribal, but the likely Democratic nominee is a guy in his mid 70s who's more moderate than most of the younger candidates. It will be interesting to see how it all sorts out.

[ukpumacat]

the likely Democratic nominee is a guy in his mid 70s who's more moderate than most of the younger candidates. It will be interesting to see how it all sorts out.

I really do not believe he will win the nomination. Guess we shall see.

[KSRBEvans]

I really do not believe he will win the nomination. Guess we shall see.

I didn't think so, either, but I keep waiting to see who's going to beat him. I think you've got a top tier of Biden/Bernie/Warren, a 2nd tier of Harris/Mayor Pete (whom I call "Mayor Pete" because I haven't learned to correctly spell his last name) and then a 3rd tier with The Rest, with Steyer out there as a wild card.

Harris had her moment at the debate but Gabbard hit her hard at the next debate and Harris lost all her momentum.

Sanders and Warren are splitting the same vote--at some point they have to try and take the other one out. The longer they wait, the better it is for Biden IMHO.

Mayor Pete? Hasn't shown a way to get past 5%.

Steyer might be able to swoop in with his $ and just carpet-bomb the primary states with media and get a groundswell going, but it's getting late awful early.

The rest have no shot.

[ukpumacat]

To me the problems you note are exactly the problems that skew your thinking to your conclusion.
Strip away the brash, buffoonery that Trump exudes and look at the policy he has implemented.
He is fairly moderate despite how it’s reported by then media. Unfortunately he tweets because the media is agenda driven and that agenda is not in step with the majority of the populous.

That "brash buffoonery" is my exact point. I can't strip it away...on either side. I reject the notion I should or have to.
To me (and I'm only speaking for me) it has reached the point way beyond policy. I care more about the civil discourse and how my kids view/respect the office of the President than I do his policy. I actually agree with you, I don't think his policy is extremely conservative. We have had much more conservative Presidents.
I am not a Republican or a Conservative. And I am saying I would rather have a MORE conservative President who doesn't come with the "buffoonery". Sign me up.
But again, my post was about FAR more than Trump. Its the media on both sides. Its voters on both sides. Its become so ugly, divisive and vile.
My point was simply this...there have been really important times in our country where people (candidates/voters/media) put aside their differences in policy/politics and cared about something greater. That something greater was unifying. Post-9/11 was absolutely one of those times. Tragedy often is.
And I'm not intimating that we need a tragedy to do that. But we need to do it. We have had several tragedies in the last two years that in the past WOULD HAVE done just that. And they simply don't anymore. Something awful happens and immediately both sides go to their corners and the finger pointing begins. Both sides. Mass shootings. Category 5 hurricanes. 9/11 memorials. Doesn't matter anymore.
Look, I was a History major (and got my degree from a conservative school). And am still a History lover. I certainly know the history of our country and government and that politicians haven't always been rosy and nice.
But, there has always been certain standards and decorum that everyone has kept. Certain things used to matter that simply don't anymore and it is terribly disheartening. And frankly, I HATE what it is teaching our kids.
We are teaching them to "strip away the brash buffoonery". That someone's policy matters more than their actions or character. That the ends completely justify the means (as long as they agree with the ends).

I reject that.

I yield the rest of my time to John Adams...a man who absolutely hated his political rival for a time (and exchanged a few choice words with)...but spent almost all of their time in silence or writing sensible letters to each other about their differences. And eventually died (on the same day) as closest friends.
This is what he said in a letter to James Warren in April of 1776:

"We may please ourselves with the prospect of free and popular governments, But there is great danger, that those governments will not make us happy. God grant they may. But I fear, that in every assembly, members will obtain an influence by noise and not sense. By meanness and not greatness. By ignorance and not learning (or listening). By contracted hearts, not large souls...
There is one thing, my dear sir, that must be attempted and most sacredly observed or we are all undone.
There must be decency, respect and veneration introduced for persons in authority, of every rank. Or we are undone."

[Darryl]

After 9/11 every police officer in this country was a hero; people wearing NYPD hats/T-shirts, etc. In 8 years Obama and Eric Holder helped put a bull's eye on the back of every police officer in the nation. Holder is despicable. Hated and disrespected the very men and women who worked for him. I find it humorous that Trump is so far away from what we want in the White House and yet Obama was so respectable. He grew up in a family that hated America; he attended a racist black Church; he made no secret of his distaste for the military, the police, Israel (plus other long term Allies).

I especially liked his apology tour around the world for America's sins. I despised everything he did BUT I wanted him to succeed for our country's sake. Democrats have wanted everything Trump does to fail (from day 1). For heaven's sake, they tried to overthrow the government with outright lies. Very much a "7 Days in May" coup.

And I certainly don't think Trump hung the moon. I grew up in a Democrat family; my Father would be appalled with the Democrats of today. I used to be considered a moderate, but I say this in all sincerity; I would vote for a member of the Taliban before I ever voted for a Democrat the rest of my life.

Darryl

[kingcat]

After 9/11 every police officer in this country was a hero; people wearing NYPD hats/T-shirts, etc. In 8 years Obama and Eric Holder helped put a bull's eye on the back of every police officer in the nation. Holder is despicable. Hated and disrespected the very men and women who worked for him. I find it humorous that Trump is so far away from what we want in the White House and yet Obama was so respectable. He grew up in a family that hated America; he attended a racist black Church; he made no secret of his distaste for the military, the police, Israel (plus other long term Allies).

I especially liked his apology tour around the world for America's sins. I despised everything he did BUT I wanted him to succeed for our country's sake. Democrats have wanted everything Trump does to fail (from day 1). For heaven's sake, they tried to overthrow the government with outright lies. Very much a "7 Days in May" coup.

And I certainly don't think Trump hung the moon. I grew up in a Democrat family; my Father would be appalled with the Democrats of today. I used to be considered a moderate, but I say this in all sincerity; I would vote for a member of the Taliban before I ever voted for a Democrat the rest of my life.

Darryl

Prefer the taliban? The most conservative of all conservative extremist groups?

I'll safely wager half of the 9/11 heroes if not more, were, and remain Democrats. And also of those law enforcement people across the nation, a huge percentage would be just as offended by such an attitude toward your fellow citizens. And they are just as informed and intelligent as any one of us here.
And you would sooner vote for the taliban who just murdered an American citizen while in peace talks a few days ago over...say a veteran who served and sacrificed for this country?

That type of division is not a normal response, it is a programmed response imo. One formed by having one's attention focused on the extremes of one party and blinded to the extremes of their own party as well as to the virtues of another in helping to form a moderate and fairly representative middle ground.

And forgive me..but it is just plain un-American. Yet, it is becoming all too representative of not just the extreme right, but the republican party in general.

What's worse is, it requires an equally rigid response. That's what we are now seeing and that's where the real danger lies for both sides of the political spectrum. It will not ever be this way or that way. It is an impossibility for a democratic government.

It can only be the agreed upon way that best promotes freedom and liberty for all men and women regardless of race, or religion.
And every American must be willing to compromise to maintain their own liberty.

If any citizen is alienated, the whole thing comes crashing down.

Extremists on both sides are using that to destroy our country.
So we must stop being receptive to hate mongering. Something which goes against the current partisan media's financial game plan, and foreign attacks on our democratic form of government.

Sadly, hate unites and is easy to incite. We must become smarter and more broadminded as a nation...or else we lost.

[Darryl]

I'll safely wager half of those heroes you hate, if not more, were, and remain Democrats.
That type of division is not a normal response, it is a programmed response imo.

Your response makes no sense. What heroes do I hate?

Darryl

[Darryl]

Speaking of civil discourse, I am trying to remember the celebrities, news people, TV hosts that actually physically threatened President Obama, President Clinton, etc. like multiple Liberals have for Trump. I thought that was against the law.

Darryl

[kingcat]

Your response makes no sense. What heroes do I hate?

Darryl

I edited that almost immediately to better express myself, which I think I did. That is not what I intended to say.

Here is what I said...

Prefer the taliban? The most conservative of all conservative extremist groups?

I'll safely wager half of the 9/11 heroes if not more, were, and remain Democrats. And also of those law enforcement people across the nation, a huge percentage would be just as offended by such an attitude toward your fellow citizens. And they are just as informed and intelligent as any one of us here.
And you would sooner vote for the taliban who just murdered an American citizen while in peace talks a few days ago over...say a veteran who served and sacrificed for this country?

[kingcat]

Speaking of civil discourse, I am trying to remember the celebrities, news people, TV hosts that actually physically threatened President Obama, President Clinton, etc. like multiple Liberals have for Trump. I thought that was against the law.

Darryl

OBama was under constant attack for everything from playing too much golf :D, not being a US citizen, to being a Muslim.
And entertainers are known for big mouths and being starved for publicity of any kind. We actually now have a President who is one of them and in general seeks the same things they do.

But, Obama, the Clintons, the Bush'e etc.. are not the issue anymore.

They serve only as a safe harbor for "yeah, but what about" arguments.

My post above visits the current situation as head on as I can muster.

But preferring the taliban to any democrat running for office is just wrong and hugely offensive.
And yes, it is an outrageous attack on all democrats or anyone who might vote that way...and our country.

I believe you should re-think that.

[Darryl]

Where I stand:

1. I think the money I earn working 2 full time jobs for 35 years should mostly belong to me and my family. The current Liberals/Socialists/Democrats disagree

2. I believe in an orderly process for LEGAL immigration. I have absolutely no sympathy for these idiots wanting open borders

3. Working in Healthcare for 40 years, I am infuriated when these Liberals promote Healthcare for all, including illegals.

4. I think everyone has the right to bear arms to protect their families. Civil war will ensue if gun confiscation occurs.

5. I love how every conservative is a racist. Obama got 95% of the Black vote but whites are the racist ones. I am fair to everyone, always have been.

6. I do think helping everyone go to college is admirable. Unsure if it would work. Maybe stop all foreign wars (I tend toward isolationism) and use that money for infrastructure, helping the homeless, veterans, etc

Rambling post but some of my views.

Darryl

[kingcat]

Where I stand:

1. I think the money I earn working 2 full time jobs for 35 years should mostly belong to me and my family. The current Liberals/Socialists/Democrats disagree

2. I believe in an orderly process for LEGAL immigration. I have absolutely no sympathy for these idiots wanting open borders

3. Working in Healthcare for 40 years, I am infuriated when these Liberals promote Healthcare for all, including illegals.

4. I think everyone has the right to bear arms to protect their families. Civil war will ensue if gun confiscation occurs.

5. I love how every conservative is a racist. Obama got 95% of the Black vote but whites are the racist ones. I am fair to everyone, always have been.

6. I do think helping everyone go to college is admirable. Unsure if it would work. Maybe stop all foreign wars (I tend toward isolationism) and use that money for infrastructure, helping the homeless, veterans, etc

Rambling post but some of my views.

Darryl

#1 is fairly ambiguous. Many Dems would agree that money is mostly yours. And you seem to agree some part should go towards social programs and to support the govt.
So maybe it is some current Liberals/Socialists/Democrats that disagree..although that is unfairly lumping all democrats into one big pile. Something both sides like to do.

#2 Nearly everyone believes in an orderly process for LEGAL immigration. But not everyone believes in humane treatment of illegal immigrants or in aiding them in becoming "legals"
There is right or wrong in how we deal with our fellow man, and our country and it's citizenry is required to show compassion to the suffering and less fortunate. Or as I believe, God will judge us just as harshly.
I try to imagine looking into the faces of those illegals and their children..their identity is not automatically an evil thing.
https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/child-immigrants_military-base.jpg

#3
As a Christian, to refuse healthcare to anyone ,especially a child, is a grievous sin imho. Sorry, but that is the bottom line to me. If other countries can do it (which they do), we surely can.

#4 Nearly everyone believes in the right to bare arms. Not everyone has the right to carry assault rifles or bazookas and flame throwers. Nor did the founding fathers consider issuing a cannon to every citizen, even though there were enough dangerous foreign aggressors to have warranted it.
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/wp-content/gallery/politicians-who-hunt/bill-clinton-hunting.jpg

#5
Racism has come to the forefront because of a natural backlash against a Black President. A few of those accusations I mention above about OBama, were born of a racist mindset. That racism still exists has been a rude awakening to much of White America.
And so many go about condemning those who would dare point out racism as it exists, just to avoid feeling guilty. When all along we aren't guilty of anything but denial.

The fact is, there are those on the far right who proudly declare themselves racist. And there are many on the far left who like to declare all on the right racists. And there are some on both left and right who deny they are racist, when in fact they are.
It's time to let rational thought and Christian understanding prevail over those who only want to divide us as a people.

#6
I pretty much agree. I'm beginning to wonder if concern over a college education is anywhere near as important as a complete revamping of our general education system void of partisanship and theory presented as fact.
Reserve paying for college for the brightest among us to actually stuudy to increase human knowledge, rather than earn high paying jobs that add little tangible benefit to humanity. Teach every little boy to dig a big ole hole standing right next to another little boy of a different race and then neatly fill the hole up, and teach every little girl that she can do the same but only if she really wants.

Make Momma's cooking, if its as good as my Momma's, mandatory at all affairs of state. And ditch the suits in Washington DC in favor of work shirts with their name, title, and/or affiliation on it. Silly stuff I know, but no silly'er than what we have.

Oh, and as a people, observe and judge every person and every situation on its own merit. Not depending on precedent or rigid opinion so as to lazily wash our hands on matters of importance.

Outlaw all political opinion pieces on any type media news service. Make it illegal as being anti-American propaganda with severe individual penalties
if found guilty of spinning facts for political reasons or gain. I mean mandatory jail time of no less than five years.

[Darryl]

FYI, I hate the Taliban. I would never vote for them, and there is less chance I would vote for a Democrat.

Darryl

[Darryl]

King, people who stress over them need to adopt several illegals and pay for their Healthcare. They talk the talk, walk the walk.

By the way, your hero Obama deported more illegals than President in history.

The Democrats tried to take down a government, but the Republicans are causing the ill feelings.

Laughable

Darryl

[kingcat]

History will not see it your way.

Obama was a good enough President. I believe the stock market did triple under his leadership after tanking under his predecessor.
But Hero? I have never declared him a hero.
That is just an expression of anger because I won't trash him.

I do however outwardly appreciate how a person of color could view him as such. And I believe every American should understand and appreciate that.
It was the ultimate expression of a true democracy which came full circle as a one time slave to it became the leader of both it and the free world.

I am proud of that, even though I understand God sees no difference in any of us.

As for stressing over anyone in need of healthcare, it our Christian duty to do so. There is no biblical alternative. What to do about it is another thing...we can ask Canada what to do maybe.

As for anyone abusing healthcare insurance, our reasonable service is to report it and seek to correct it..Legal or not. Citizen or not.

But not the children.

[suncat05]

This discourse here is way more civil than most I encounter daily.
The points made by both sides here are vaild. I see both sides, although I do not always agree with both sides.
This thread, and others like it, are why I keep telling you guys here that there is a storm coming. Believe me or not, I see it coming closer every day. When it happens, the bad apples on both sides will eventually be weeded and then perhaps we will all be able to come together and civil discourse will be the rule, not the exception.
We are a nation divided right now, by many different sources. By our politicians, by our education system, by outside influences, just to name a few. We are becoming what we loathe.
Unfortunately, occasionally the roots of the Tree of Liberty must be bathed in the blood of tyrants and Patriots.

[ukpumacat]

I used to be considered a moderate, but I say this in all sincerity; I would vote for a member of the Taliban before I ever voted for a Democrat the rest of my life.

Darryl

D, I know you are a great guy and I love you to death, but goodness I sure hope you don’t mean that.
It’s exactly what I mean that so many have been driven to. To hate as opposed to disagree with.
The Taliban is a murdering, raping, genocidal terrorist organization that hates Christians and Americans with blood boiled anger.
And I get thinking a group of one party is bad for the country and hating that, but come on now. Don’t let the rhetoric get to you.
There are patriots on both sides of the aisle. Smart, God fearing, family loving, well intentioned Democrats who just see things different than you.
I can’t stand some conservative politics and absolutely think some are awful for the country. But that’s politics. It would never leave me to say, think or believe the above.

[ukpumacat]

And I’m not entering into the political debate above. Because my OP isn’t about politics. It’s above politics. It’s about civil discourse and the need for it more than ever in our country right now.
People have allowed the media (on BOTH sides) and a handful of politicians (on both sides) to develop an anger, hatred and viscousness that is simply unhealthy and wrong imo. To vilify.
Our country works best when the pendulum swings both ways. It always has. and That works best (and maybe only) when both sides can disagree without the vile discourse we see in our country today.

[Darryl]

D, I know you are a great guy and I love you to death, but goodness I sure hope you don’t mean that.
It’s exactly what I mean that so many have been driven to. To hate as opposed to disagree with.
The Taliban is a murdering, raping, genocidal terrorist organization that hates Christians and Americans with blood boiled anger.
And I get thinking a group of one party is bad for the country and hating that, but come on now. Don’t let the rhetoric get to you.
There are patriots on both sides of the aisle. Smart, God fearing, family loving, well intentioned Democrats who just see things different than you.
I can’t stand some conservative politics and absolutely think some are awful for the country. But that’s politics. It would never leave me to say, think or believe the above.

Nah, I was just making a point. I wouldn’t vote for either of them.

Darryl

[Doc]

Going to refer back to the ORIGINAL post......

I too felt Obama was a "good person". I never felt he was "unamerican" etc.. even though many did. He saw America in a different way that I did, yet because I didn't see it that way I was repeatedly called a RACIST. People who didn't agree with a welfare state were by definition racist. Those who disagreed with him on POLICY were degraded and termed RACISTS. The term took on a who new meaning. It went from a person who demeaned an entire race of people based on their ethnicity to anybody who wasn't a lock step liberal. He booted 1/2 of the nation "to the back of the bus" (his terms--one that a white GOP uses its a "dog whistle for racism") because according to him elections have consequences when it to his benefit. He literally helped turn the nation against the law enforcement of this nation, helping to paint them all LEO's as racist. He was every bit as divisive, if not more so, than trump. Yet I still viewed him as an honorable man. Most republicans did not spend every waking minute looking to impeach, arrest, or make his life miserable. Did some? Sure but no more than many democrats did for Bush. Yet now we have congress people advocating VIOLENCE against those who support the duly elected President simply because they can not fathom they lost. They have resorted to creating hoaxes and conspiracies in cahoots with the meida.

Much of Trump's image of being an ass, somebody who you don't respect is HIS doing but much is the media and the democrats doing. They label him a white supremacist but ask them for specifics and they come up flat, using vague examples like what he said at Charlotteville, or that he is Anti-Mexican, or wants a Muslim ban...all things that are huge media/left spins. I too believe that both sides in Charlottesville had a right to be there and have their say. We love to spout the "I may not agree with what they say but will fight for their right to say it" until they say something we don't agree with. THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED IN CHARLOTTESVILLE. Believe me, I find every word uttered by BLM, the "Reverand Al Sharpton", Louis Farrakan, Jessie Jackson, etc every bit as disgusting and hate mongering!!!! Yet they have the right to spew their filth. Wanting to secure out boarders isn't anti Latino. It is about protecting our nation. Ditto for increased screening for people coming from high terrorist countries. But his opponents paint it as something its not, repeat it ad nasueum and eventually some stick. But I actually LIKE a president who isn't a flaming pussy, one who stands up for America and puts us first. One who isn't a "globalist". One who isn't afraid to offend those who have taken advantage of us for decades. Does he need thicker skin? Sure, but you know what. So did Obama. How often did he attack Fox and other conservative News outlets?
the difference is that Obama took the same approach when attacking them as he did with foreign policy. It was lots of bluster and no action. In essence, he brought a spit ball to a gun fight. In Contrast, Trump brings a bazooka to a knife fight.

I'm like Darryl. I work hard for my money. And despite what liberal say...I DO PAY MY FAIR SHARE OF TAXES. Its the 50% of the nation that pay NO FEDERAL INCOME TAXES THAT ARE NOT PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE. When I was living on hot dogs and mac & cheese while going to school, paying my own way, I managed to put away money for my kids college fund. I didn't squander money on a big TV, or season sports tickets, or other luxuries. I spent my money on planning ahead so MY kids, the kids I created and the kids I am responsible for, could go to college. I have no responsibility to pay for somebody elses kids education, or for their medical cost. I didn't have the fun of making them so why should I pay for them?

As for the non political aspect, the social discourse...well the social discourse is a result of the politics. It is as simple as one side lost and can't handle it. The retaliation is to stomp their feet and act like a bunch of ####ing 2 year old babies. When my side lost (when Obama won), I simple tolerated the results and vowed to vote again in 4 years. Thats how our political system is suppose to work. Not any more. Now its "we don't like the results so lets 1) invalidate the results by creating a Russian Conspiracy hoax 2) lets go after the president, his family and anybody associated with him 3) Impeach, impeach, impeach and 4) Physically, verbally and mentally attack anybody who supports him. I mean lets make red hats illegal because they make somebody "uncomfortable" and represent the oppression of African Americans. Get the F over yourself.

[Doc]

King, people who stress over them need to adopt several illegals and pay for their Healthcare. They talk the talk, walk the walk.

By the way, your hero Obama deported more illegals than President in history.

The Democrats tried to take down a government, but the Republicans are causing the ill feelings.

Laughable

Darryl

He also put the kids in cages. Lets not forget that.

[Doc]

But bottom line, there is a bit of selective memory going on. Lets not forget the "discourse" under Nixon and Watergate. Probably every bit as bad. Or Slick Willy on the impeachment process that went on under his administration.

A "nice" president that we respect is great. Hell, Jimmy Carter....great guy, nice, respectable, moral and upstanding guy.... but an incredibly inept leader of the free world. By most accounts the #1 worse president. By those who have met him (I do know several people who have) he is one of the nicest most genuine people out there. So for my money, give me an asshole who does the country right over a great guy who leads us into 20 plus percent interest rates, gas lines, Olympic boycots and 52 American hostages held in Iran for 444 days.



PS: the day the DJT gets his pecker slupped in the oval office by an intern is the day I will allow a liberal to lecture me on moral character.

[Darryl]

Going to refer back to the ORIGINAL post......

I too felt Obama was a "good person". I never felt he was "unamerican" etc.. even though many did. He saw America in a different way that I did, yet because I didn't see it that way I was repeatedly called a RACIST. People who didn't agree with a welfare state were by definition racist. Those who disagreed with him on POLICY were degraded and termed RACISTS. The term took on a who new meaning. It went from a person who demeaned an entire race of people based on their ethnicity to anybody who wasn't a lock step liberal. He booted 1/2 of the nation "to the back of the bus" (his terms--one that a white GOP uses its a "dog whistle for racism") because according to him elections have consequences when it to his benefit. He literally helped turn the nation against the law enforcement of this nation, helping to paint them all LEO's as racist. He was every bit as divisive, if not more so, than trump. Yet I still viewed him as an honorable man. Most republicans did not spend every waking minute looking to impeach, arrest, or make his life miserable. Did some? Sure but no more than many democrats did for Bush. Yet now we have congress people advocating VIOLENCE against those who support the duly elected President simply because they can not fathom they lost. They have resorted to creating hoaxes and conspiracies in cahoots with the meida.

Much of Trump's image of being an ass, somebody who you don't respect is HIS doing but much is the media and the democrats doing. They label him a white supremacist but ask them for specifics and they come up flat, using vague examples like what he said at Charlotteville, or that he is Anti-Mexican, or wants a Muslim ban...all things that are huge media/left spins. I too believe that both sides in Charlottesville had a right to be there and have their say. We love to spout the "I may not agree with what they say but will fight for their right to say it" until they say something we don't agree with. THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED IN CHARLOTTESVILLE. Believe me, I find every word uttered by BLM, the "Reverand Al Sharpton", Louis Farrakan, Jessie Jackson, etc every bit as disgusting and hate mongering!!!! Yet they have the right to spew their filth. Wanting to secure out boarders isn't anti Latino. It is about protecting our nation. Ditto for increased screening for people coming from high terrorist countries. But his opponents paint it as something its not, repeat it ad nasueum and eventually some stick. But I actually LIKE a president who isn't a flaming pussy, one who stands up for America and puts us first. One who isn't a "globalist". One who isn't afraid to offend those who have taken advantage of us for decades. Does he need thicker skin? Sure, but you know what. So did Obama. How often did he attack Fox and other conservative News outlets?
the difference is that Obama took the same approach when attacking them as he did with foreign policy. It was lots of bluster and no action. In essence, he brought a spit ball to a gun fight. In Contrast, Trump brings a bazooka to a knife fight.

I'm like Darryl. I work hard for my money. And despite what liberal say...I DO PAY MY FAIR SHARE OF TAXES. Its the 50% of the nation that pay NO FEDERAL INCOME TAXES THAT ARE NOT PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE. When I was living on hot dogs and mac & cheese while going to school, paying my own way, I managed to put away money for my kids college fund. I didn't squander money on a big TV, or season sports tickets, or other luxuries. I spent my money on planning ahead so MY kids, the kids I created and the kids I am responsible for, could go to college. I have no responsibility to pay for somebody elses kids education, or for their medical cost. I didn't have the fun of making them so why should I pay for them?

As for the non political aspect, the social discourse...well the social discourse is a result of the politics. It is as simple as one side lost and can't handle it. The retaliation is to stomp their feet and act like a bunch of ####ing 2 year old babies. When my side lost (when Obama won), I simple tolerated the results and vowed to vote again in 4 years. Thats how our political system is suppose to work. Not any more. Now its "we don't like the results so lets 1) invalidate the results by creating a Russian Conspiracy hoax 2) lets go after the president, his family and anybody associated with him 3) Impeach, impeach, impeach and 4) Physically, verbally and mentally attack anybody who supports him. I mean lets make red hats illegal because they make somebody "uncomfortable" and represent the oppression of African Americans. Get the F over yourself.

Just outstanding....outstanding!

Darryl

[KeithKSR]

The two parties were united after 9/11 up until the Dems realized they couldn’t win in 2002 being united.

[ukpumacat]

Going to refer back to the ORIGINAL post......

As for the non political aspect, the social discourse...well the social discourse is a result of the politics. It is as simple as one side lost and can't handle it. The retaliation is to stomp their feet and act like a bunch of ####ing 2 year old babies. When my side lost (when Obama won), I simple tolerated the results and vowed to vote again in 4 years. Thats how our political system is suppose to work. Not any more. Now its "we don't like the results so lets 1) invalidate the results by creating a Russian Conspiracy hoax 2) lets go after the president, his family and anybody associated with him 3) Impeach, impeach, impeach and 4) Physically, verbally and mentally attack anybody who supports him. I mean lets make red hats illegal because they make somebody "uncomfortable" and represent the oppression of African Americans. Get the F over yourself.

But, here is the bottom line...you aren't a racist, are you? I don't believe you are. So anyone who called you that or made you feel that way was wrong.
I certainly didn't call you that. And the very least we can do (and sometimes all we can) is govern ourselves. I don't want Trump impeached (and think anyone who does is wrong). I don't think the election was a sham. I could go on and on. Do people believe or think that way? Of course they do. But they are wrong.
Just as wrong as the conservatives who over and over again questioned Obama's legitimacy as President. Or what country he was born in. Or called him a million other names. You can't control them either.
If we all simply point the finger at what the "other side" is doing wrong...well, then nothing will ever change.

But, if we can at least say of ourselves..."I will not act like this". And if we can stop defending "our sides" antics and stop only seeing the other sides....well, maybe things can get better. If we hold our leaders up to a higher standard and say, "enough is enough". Maybe things can change.
Its pretty clear, the bases of both parties are dug in like never before. BOTH sides have become ridiculous. When we can admit that its BOTH sides and not give anecdote after anecdote about how the "other side" is worse...well, maybe we will have a start.

[ukpumacat]

But bottom line, there is a bit of selective memory going on. Lets not forget the "discourse" under Nixon and Watergate. Probably every bit as bad. Or Slick Willy on the impeachment process that went on under his administration.

A "nice" president that we respect is great. Hell, Jimmy Carter....great guy, nice, respectable, moral and upstanding guy.... but an incredibly inept leader of the free world. By most accounts the #1 worse president. By those who have met him (I do know several people who have) he is one of the nicest most genuine people out there. So for my money, give me an asshole who does the country right over a great guy who leads us into 20 plus percent interest rates, gas lines, Olympic boycots and 52 American hostages held in Iran for 444 days.


Citing one extreme doesn't negate that we can have both: a decent example of a President AND a good leader. That is a straw man argument. Again, I reject that notion that we have to settle for what politics has become in order to get the policies we desire.
The problem of course is a "good leader" is in the eye of the beholder (based on their politics most often).

[Doc]

Citing one extreme doesn't negate that we can have both: a decent example of a President AND a good leader. That is a straw man argument. Again, I reject that notion that we have to settle for what politics has become in order to get the policies we desire.
The problem of course is a "good leader" is in the eye of the beholder (based on their politics most often).

You missed my point, preferring to call it a straw man arguement. Point is I could not care less about whether or not the President is an personally asshole. I care about his policy, his (or her) political philosophy. We need not "settle" because I don't put much value in a personal level. I do as far as ethics go which is why I would never vote for Hilary. Now her husband, I actually thought a good president, even back when he was being impeached. Wasn't fond of the lying etc...but as far as policy goes, thought he did a good job. And for those clamoring about Trump's lack of ethics, show me where he has violated the law.

[Doc]

But, here is the bottom line...you aren't a racist, are you? I don't believe you are. So anyone who called you that or made you feel that way was wrong.
I certainly didn't call you that. And the very least we can do (and sometimes all we can) is govern ourselves. I don't want Trump impeached (and think anyone who does is wrong). I don't think the election was a sham. I could go on and on. Do people believe or think that way? Of course they do. But they are wrong.
Just as wrong as the conservatives who over and over again questioned Obama's legitimacy as President. Or what country he was born in. Or called him a million other names. You can't control them either.
If we all simply point the finger at what the "other side" is doing wrong...well, then nothing will ever change.

But, if we can at least say of ourselves..."I will not act like this". And if we can stop defending "our sides" antics and stop only seeing the other sides....well, maybe things can get better. If we hold our leaders up to a higher standard and say, "enough is enough". Maybe things can change.
Its pretty clear, the bases of both parties are dug in like never before. BOTH sides have become ridiculous. When we can admit that its BOTH sides and not give anecdote after anecdote about how the "other side" is worse...well, maybe we will have a start.

The people who questioned Obama legitimacy were not congressmen. There is your strawman arguement. There will always be joe smos who gripe and complain about a president but when elected officials like Maxine Water, Jerry Nadler, Chuck Schumer, Rashad Telib etc...people elected to run the country spend more time trying to bring down the president than doing their job, that is an issue.

The left and media has labelled Trump as "the most devisive President" ever. Two issue with that. First, where where they under the last administration? You know, the one who used the IRS to target his opponents? Or the one who targetted the law enforcement of this nation? Or the one who actually did obstruct justice be it with Holder's tactics conceening fast and furious or hillary destroying government email (Trump does eithee of those it is IMPEACH, IMPEACH, IMPEACH). Yet the right did not take that approach because it was and is devicive. So when talking devicive, one needs to place blame with the left as well. It takes two to tangle yet only one is blame.
Second devicive politics started long before Trump. Liberals started by changing rules, they admittedly lie about opponents (you recall Harry Reid's comments on Mitt's taxes? An outright lie he admitted to knowing it was a lie), the method Obama care was hammered thru? Liberals will claim it started with the "vast right wing conspiracy" to get slick willie. So this is not on Trump, nor is it new. It is to a new level perceptionwise because it is media driven. Again, I dislike Trumps social meia approach of attacking individuals. It is childish, and boorish, and petty....and probably beneath the President but so is congress blocking things they voted for under previous administeations (like a wall) simply because it is a Trump goal. I have not seen both sides become ridiculous. I wish the right had been more vidictive when they had the chance. I will admit that I was moderately disgusted by the tone and behavior under Obama at times however the current antics by the left has all but erased that embarrassment. Trump is a fool at times but Nadler, Waters, Schumer, Pelosi, Talhib, Pressley Omar, Stallworth, etc make him look like a mental giant yet it is ONLY Trump who is the great divider

[Catonahottinroof]

Doc..the left didn’t see Obama as divisive..and that includes the media.

[dan_bgblue]

when elected officials, people elected to run the country spend more time trying to bring down the president than doing their job, that is an issue.

edited for brevity as if I tried to name all members of the lynch mob, I would run out of ink and patience.

[Doc]

Doc..the left didn’t see Obama as divisive..and that includes the media.

Exactly my point. I saw him as far more divisive. Also far more of an obstructionist. As aggressive to media, and maybe more so (it was under Obama administration that Fox reporter James Rosen was charged). Yes he was a "nice guy" so we will accept all that stuff. Trump on the other hand is a jackass but also a target for the media and an opposing party who won't accept defeat, and go to ANY LEVEL to attack him. That is fine but lets quit with blaming it all on the Donald. I remember a time when the vast majority of Americans would be appauled at the idea of the assination of a president. Now we have a large segment that wish for and would applaud it...and that includes people in our government. I'm tired of the blame it all on Trump. He holds some culpability but not all, or even the majority of it.

[Darryl]

I have never seen anything as blatant as the way the National media reacted to Trump's win on election night. They were emotionally destroyed. At that moment they started trashing everything connected to Trump and his supporters.

It is laughable to see people say the hateful rhetoric from both sides needs to stop. The Libs started ALL of this. As a friend of mine said of the Democrats; "it isn't just Trump they hate, it is all the people that support Trump they hate". Personally, I love the fact conservatives are fighting back; I wish they would do it more. I see these videos of people attacking Trump supporters; I say it again, they are not attacking those folks I know. It would end badly for the attackers.

Darryl

[ukpumacat]

I have not seen both sides become ridiculous.

Not much more to say then.

[ukpumacat]

I have never seen anything as blatant as the way the National media reacted to Trump's win on election night. They were emotionally destroyed. At that moment they started trashing everything connected to Trump and his supporters.

It is laughable to see people say the hateful rhetoric from both sides needs to stop. The Libs started ALL of this. As a friend of mine said of the Democrats; "it isn't just Trump they hate, it is all the people that support Trump they hate". Personally, I love the fact conservatives are fighting back; I wish they would do it more. I see these videos of people attacking Trump supporters; I say it again, they are not attacking those folks I know. It would end badly for the attackers.

Darryl

This post is exactly why I started this thread.

[ukpumacat]

I feel incredibly sad for our children (and grandchildren). The undertones of violence and threats (on both sides) is becoming alarming.
I see it on Jr. High, High School and college campuses every day.

Discussion, debate and dialogue has been replaced by hatred, anger and threats.

I hate what I see and what it is becoming. Our country is better than this. We, as a people, should be better than this. I hate the constant grenades thrown by the media and the Democratic congress. I hate what twitter has become. I hate the finger pointing that constantly happens on both sides. I hate that anyone questions the legitimacy of an election. I hate that every day there is a new news story about some old story drug up. I hate all of that. And that is all on the Dem side.

But I also hate the racist undertones that I constantly read (it may not be you...but it exists). I hate that a Mexican father in California accidentally killed his son while boating this weekend (he was drinking) and the comment section on Foxnews.com is some of the most disgusting, inflammatory stuff I've ever read. I hate the childish behavior that others look past. I hate that a thread on today's politics and the awful rhetoric that exists predictably turned into finger pointing about "who started it" as opposed to offering solutions to fix it.

My offered solution still stands...BOTH sides need to stop. People need to have civil debates. People need to stop fingerpointing and using extreme hyperbole. And people need to stop pointing out all of the examples of when "the other side" did something and simply do the only thing they can do: monitor their own behavior.

Look, everyone on this board who is not a die-hard conservative or didn't vote for Trump knows better than to attempt to give a different point of view. But the whole 9/11 stuff just really got to me and a lot of this hits home (for several reasons for me).
I don't hate Trump. I certainly don't hate anyone who supports him. I don't think conservatives are "dumb as fenceposts" and I certainly wouldn't vote for a Taliban member before I would vote for a Republican. And I know California has a lot of amazing people in it.
I disagree with many of Trump's policies and I strongly disagree with his antics. He will not be getting my vote.
I love and respect all of you guys on here and since I grew up and was raised as a staunch conservative I certainly understand the basis behind what you all believe.
I just happen to see things differently.
And someday...boy do I hope that someday people will be able to sit down again and have real discussions on real issues without it turning into a circus or even worse. I hope that for my kids.

They are lucky. They go to school every single day on a military base. So, they are exposed to some things most kids their age are not. We respect our military. We respect the office of the President no matter who it is. And we respect the flag and our country (and the rights of others to kneel to it).
But they also hear a lot of racist talk every day. Their school is about 90% white so it is not reflective of the area we are in.
We live in a neighborhood that is 80% hispanic so almost all of their friends and teammates in sports leagues are hispanic. Its personal to them.
So when they hear friends at school talking about the wall and how we need to "send them all back" it hurts them. When they hear kids (and sometimes teachers) talk about how, "They just need to get in line and do it the right way"....they know that those kids and teachers simply are naive. Naive to what "getting in line" actually means.
That we have friends down the street...the kids were born here. The mother is a citizen here. But their dad is "doing the right thing" and living in Tijuana to wait his turn. Its been 17 years now. He's been in front of about every judge, advocate, etc that you can be in front of. We've raised money for his family to hire a lawyer. I've driven the kids down there on weekends to visit with him because they miss their dad. And he waits. Just waits. While his family lives here because she works for a school district and they go to a great school. He's "doing it the right way".
And my kids see that and they hurt for them. They know the only difference between them and those kids is their dad was lucky enough to be born here.
So my kids are lucky. They have been exposed to many cultures and they have learned the value to listening to others points of views. We don't watch news in our house. We don't poison ourselves with Fox or CNN or MSNBC or any other outlet that is simply feeding red/blue meat to the masses to make a buck.
We have gun-toting conservative neighbors. And we have hippy-liberal yoga neighbors. And we have everything in between. And thankfully, when we host 4th of July BBQ's, etc we have a backyard full of every race, every religion, every age and every voting block...and we love (and even like) all of them.
All except the one Duke fan a street over. That M'fer isn't invited.

Peace all. Thanks for the discussion. I am way better over on the basketball side, so I will see you there.

[Darryl]

A counter point. My wife is 1/4 Mexican and my kids 1/8th. She grew up in El Paso and her entire family is way more anti-illegal immigration than me. They absolutely believe in people standing in line waiting their turn. I know multiple other Mexicans who feel the same.

It is absurd to think illegal immigrants have ANY right to free medical care, welfare, Social Security, Medicare, etc. as Liberals are proposing. I work in the Medical field and the system simply cannot handle the load.

Use the money spent on people with no right to be here on our Veterans, our homeless, our children, our drug addicted people, etc. It is both fair and logical.

As for racism,; when liberals stand up to black racists I will pay more attention to them. If Fox hired David Duke I Suspect there may be an uproar, yet CNN and every Democratic candidate kisses that thug Al Sharpton’s butt every time they see him.

Your kids (great looking kids by the way) would probably see racism in a 90% black school just like they do in their current school. I know in Hoover (a mostly white area) blacks come and go with little problems; the same cannot be said for whites going into black areas. If that sounds racist, I am sorry.

Best to you and hope this different point of view does not cause bad feelings. Like I said, I was very objective and moderate till 2016. The Liberal hatred changed me.

Darryl

[ukpumacat]

Your kids (great looking kids by the way) would probably see racism in a 90% black school just like they do in their current school. I know in Hoover (a mostly white area) blacks come and go with little problems; the same cannot be said for whites going into black areas. If that sounds racist, I am sorry.

Best to you and hope this different point of view does not cause bad feelings. Like I said, I was very objective and moderate till 2016. The Liberal hatred changed me.

Darryl

Absolutely "white people" are not the only ones that can be racist. It happens everywhere and its rotten in all places it exists.

And of course no hard feelings whatsoever. My UK love and bond is MUCH greater than politics. Seriously.

[Darryl]

Absolutely "white people" are not the only ones that can be racist. It happens everywhere and its rotten in all places it exists.

And of course no hard feelings whatsoever. My UK love and bond is MUCH greater than politics. Seriously.

D, I read a funny thing the other day:

“I’m proud to be an Asian” said the Asian man.

“I’m proud to be a black man” said the black man.

“I’m proud to be a white man” said the racist.

Darryl

[kingcat]

People in general are conditioned to take a side and condemn the other. Whether in politics, music genres, sports, etc..

Rivals are evil.

And if it were not that way,, with everyone of the same mind, all media outlets would be out of business with none preferred over the other.
But because it appeals to the conditioning we have succumbed to...there is no desire whatsoever to admit we are being willingly deceived, herded, and/or manipulated.

I don't dislike or hate any who shares in the phenomenon..but I feel sorry for everyone who doesn't understand this.
Because even understanding it is not a solution in and of itself. But it the only starting place for healing. In this nation, neither political "side" will survive without heavy compromise from the other.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? Matthew 7:3
Thats not written for one side or the other....its written for all of us and applies to the nature of ALL mankind in general (especially Christians) and in all aspects of life.....including politics.

Without understanding that, there is no compromise. And without compromise there is no such thing as equality, human rights, nor even The United States of America and the precepts this nation was built upon.

That, we should all be able to agree upon...but I fear we won't. Which in itself re-enforces it as fact.
Perhaps an irreversible one at this point.

But if we dont, we will be the generation that betrayed this nation for our own self gratification.

The quote below by Senator McClain is as fitting for the time we live in as the Gettysburg Address was for its day and time. But if anyone believes our sources of news and opinion, on both sides, want such a society...they are 100% terribly mistaken.

“Before I leave I’d like to see our politics begin to return to the purposes and practices that distinguish our history from the history of other nations,
“I would like to see us recover our sense that we are more alike than different. We are citizens of a republic made of shared ideals forged in a new world to replace the tribal enmities that tormented the old one. Even in times of political turmoil such as these, we share that awesome heritage and the responsibility to embrace it.”

[Doc]

Why social discourse? CNN finally called out by somebody at CNN. This is a huge part of the reason for discourse

CNN contributor accuses Chris Cuomo of spreading 'fake news' about Trump in heated clash

https://www.foxnews.com/media/cnn-contributor-accuses-chris-cuomo-of-spreading-fake-news-about-trump-in-heated-clash

And what is a shame is that people fall subject to the tactic. Pundits intentionally read things into what Trump says that are not there on order to seed discourse. All people say things that are "gaffs", or could be taken in several ways but only one is constantly portrayed as the most possible offensive every single time. Obama's gaffs were mentioned them moved on. Same with GWB. So the 16 years of repecting the president and the office of the president was in large part due to how the man in the office is portrayed. Obama was every bit the racist Trump is. I suspect Bush used some of the same terms that Trump did...but all former Presidents are eventually given a pass and everybody moves on. Hell, Biden use the ol "locked em up in chains" and "you can't go into a 7-11 without seeing an Indian" yet he is portrayed as some civil right activiist. Imagine Trump saying something alongs those lines and it would be added to the proof he is a racist. I'm sure the media believes there is a white hood hanging in the Lincoln bedroom despite the Klan being an organization that is no longer relevent.

I have always respected the Office of the President, and continue to do so. Likewise I have always respected the electoral process and the results of that process, even when my guy lost. But mostly I ignore what the media, Hollywood elites and the opposing party opines. Their opinions are agenda driven, and thise are their's, not mine. And so while politics has become nasty, vile, uncivil and violent for a multitude of reasons, including the Presidents no holds bar approached, my request is that rather than tune it out, its simply look at that actual facts without the bias imput and ignore all the peripherals

[ukpumacat]

I agree King and Doc.

[ukpumacat]

A follow up on this (and I am glad I waited to post this so I could be balanced in my attack):

The protesters attacking Trump supporters in Minnesota was appalling.

The video going viral that was played at a Trump Conference by his supporters is disgusting and dangerous.

Both are just more examples of exactly why I started this thread. I will say once again...the ONLY way this ever stops is if people on BOTH sides stop blaming the other side for all of this and playing a "who started what" chicken and egg game and simply take responsibility for themselves.

Its so sad that this is likely going to get worse before it gets better. And we aren't even in 2020 yet. It will not be long before this leads to some major egregious violent act (and I know there have been small ones) that will inevitably lead to some other violent act in retort. It needs to stop now.