Can we all agree Ocasio-Cortez is fencepost dumb or nuts?

[CitizenBBN]

Seriously.

I get socialism. I do. It's deeply flawed and a violation of basic individual rights in every way, but I get it, and I get why some are proponents of it.

But her brand of "socialism" isn't even sane. it's that young, naive, dont' bother me with facts or math type of socialism.

Her "Green New Deal" today included gems like "support" for those "unwilling" to work. Taking socialist flaws such as the removal of incentives for work to eleven, they embrace the idea with vigor and pride. Just dont' like work? no problem, here's your check and house and food.

But wait. If you vote now, you'll also get: “net-zero greenhouse gas emissions through a fair and just transition for all communities and workers;”

You know, b/c we said so, so surely it'll just work right? I mean the fact that mathematically we can't generate enough energy for our needs with solar and wind isn't the issue at all. We're just going to pass a law that it WILL meet our needs, and to be safe we'll include a paragraph that says the transition has to be fair and just for everyone so no one is hurt. See, magic!!!

Then there's this, which should prove to everyone these people are bat crap crazy, and not just social justice socialists: An accompanying FAQ, released by Ocasio-Cortez’s office and obtained by NPR (https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=5729035-Green-New-Deal-FAQ), goes even further, calling to "upgrade or replace every building in US for state-of-the-art energy efficiency."

Read that a few times. Going to go to every building in America and bring it up to some kind of net-zero greenhouse level of efficiency, either by retrofitting or tearing it down and replacing it.

Every. Building. In. America. Google says there are about 5.6 million commercial buildings. IN 2000 there were 115 million residences, per US Census 70 million were single family, 6.4 million were semi-attached (duplexes), rest were attached like apartment buildings, etc. Households up over 126 million now.

So say 105 or 110 million or so actual buildings in America. give or take. It'll take a lot more than a grand or two to fix on average, lol. My house was built in 1889. To get to modern "efficiency" would take at least $50-60K, probably more like $100K if you really did it right. Plaster walls with brick frame, no insulation. Can't use formaldehyde, so do you take down all the plaster on every exterior wall, insulate and put it back up? Windows all need replacing, roof needs insulation and soffit venting, insulate crawl, radon abatement b/c you just sealed up the house so much.

Can't knock it down, it's in a historic zone, or do they override state and local building codes and laws across the board?

You know how many trillions it would cost to do such a thing? The unreal legal hurdles and issues?

And how about the simple violation of basic property rights for tens of millions of Americans? What if they decide my home can't be saved and they just take it,knock it down and give me a new, better home? Not my choice, but why does that matter? It's about saving the planet right? So I should shut up and be grateful.


Seriously, done with silly rant, but can we agree she's a fencepost with a pretty face? And whole generations of kids who have gone to college on mommy and daddy's money and gotten zero actual education all think it's a dandy idea.

Oh, and so do most of the early Democratic candidates for President. People thought the GOP lost its mind voting for Trump, but their solution is to one up that move to the extreme with one that makes Trump look like Lieberman.

[Catonahottinroof]

She’s a product of modern university thought....let that sink in....
And I find it funny all the Trump hate from the left. If anything, his donations over the years indicate he was a democrat albeit a more conservative one. There are portions of the right that hate him for that very reason.

[CitizenBBN]

I forgot to mention she wants to "make air travel obsolete", and today alone said it was both massive government intervention and wasn't massive government intervention, in a span of 12 hours.

Oh, and eliminate cows eventually. No joke. High speed rail only vegetarians. Where do I sign up?

She's the kid in your classes who talked like she "got it", and was lucky to pass. I wouldn't put her in charge of a shoe shine concession in the airport she wants to close.

[CitizenBBN]

Even Pelosi jabbed at it today with this comment:

“It will be one of several or maybe many suggestions that we receive,” Pelosi told Politico on Wednesday. “The green dream or whatever they call it, nobody knows what it is, but they’re for it right?”

Yeah Pelosi, kinda like Obamacare.... (short memories on politicians)

[Doc]

according to Nancy, we have to pass it to know whats in it.


Ocasio is simply a sign of the times. A politician who promises whatever to get elected without consideration for the mechanics. Look at places with Universal Health Care. Those countries all have minimun tax rates of around 15%. Everybody pays taxes, even those make $10,000 a year. That is how it is paid for, not by taxing the rich who already are paying their fair share. The 50% of the nation who does not pay federal income tax, that is where other countries find the revenue for UHC. This GND is the same. Logistically it is not doable. It put thousands out of work and achieves nothing. Other countries step up fossil fuel usage as oil become cheap due to lower demand (making the incredible assumption this hairbrained plan come to fruition). And you think China, India, etc are going to use environmentally friendly methods? Good luck with that. They will produce cheaper good with cheaper energy while our industrial costs skyrocket and put "made in America" out of business

As for her...why is any attention being garnered to a 30 something freshman senator? Well, she is attractive so much of the nation fantasizes about that. Much of the nation is fixated on her ignorance because most of what comes out of her mouth is just stupid and third, folks love "AOC" and other cute names (Beto and Kahmilla fall in here too).

[Catonahottinroof]

“'Green New Deal' document disappears from Ocasio-Cortez's website after receiving massive social media mockery”

https://www.theblaze.com/news/green-new-deal-document-disappears-from-ocasio-cortezs-website-after-receiving-massive-social-media-mockery

[suncat05]

The stupid part of her act is just that: an act.

This woman is one of a new breed of Socialists. And they have a plan, which involves saying a lot that sounds like one thing but actually means something else.
In another time most of us here would have called this plan exactly what it really is: COMMUNISM. Period.

And don't be fooled by her (good?) looks. Every rose has its thorns. Only hers are poisonous to anyone who gets pricked by them.
This woman is dangerous. A clear and present danger in a nicer package, but a danger nonetheless.
Obama, Hillary and Bernie must be so proud of themselves and what they have unleashed into our midst.

[suncat05]

Somewhere in the bowels of Hell, Nikita Kruschev is laughing.

[CitizenBBN]

“'Green New Deal' document disappears from Ocasio-Cortez's website after receiving massive social media mockery”

https://www.theblaze.com/news/green-new-deal-document-disappears-from-ocasio-cortezs-website-after-receiving-massive-social-media-mockery

Mockery? how about a recall. lol.

Wants to ban cows and airplanes. and that's not an exaggeration, it's in the documents and FAQ, which as you said are being removed b/c it's also a sure sign she's bat crap crazy.

As Doc said, this is so wholly absurd and unworkable I really don't know where to start. Does anyone think we have enough trained construction workers to either rebuild or retrofit every standing building in the country in 10 years even if we had the $20 trillion to do it? Anyone think it's feasible to eliminate air travel or that it should even be a policy goal?

It's nuts. Not just your basic unworkable, can't pay for it socialism, but utterly stupid. Seriously, I'd flunk a 6th grader for turning in work this poorly conceived and thought out. maybe you give a 1st or 2nd grader an A for thinking about it, but by 6th grade you should know better.

[dan_bgblue]

No

Who in heck decided she was/is pretty? She is more pleasing to look at than Pelosi, but so are half of the mules in Missouri, and the other half of the mules are just headed in the opposite direction.

[Doc]

The estimates are a cost of $7,000,000,000,000 (7 trillion). I say no way. No way can you refit every building in the USA to eliminate fossil fuel for that AND replace every car AND pay every person who can't work or does not want to work AND provide health care for all AND build a high speed rail system. I'd multiply that by 10.

[CitizenBBN]

The estimates are a cost of $7,000,000,000,000 (7 trillion). I say no way. No way can you refit every building in the USA to eliminate fossil fuel for that AND replace every car AND pay every person who can't work or does not want to work AND provide health care for all AND build a high speed rail system. I'd multiply that by 10.

7 trillion? yeah, sure. That's hysterical.

Quick google fact check:

64 million homes or more use natural gas for heat. Zero greenhouse gas means all those houses (not counting businesses) have to convert over, right? Found a site that says average cost of an electric furnace install is $4,266.

That's $281 billion just to pay for the change in furnaces, say $350 with businesses to be conservative. That's just furnace, not counting electrical work to wire up for it in older homes that may not have the voltage load, or radiator homes, businesses like mine that use tube radiant heaters, that would need extra adjustments and work.

That same study says a high end furnace average is $9K. Cost overruns, etc. you're looking at say half a trillion, and that doesn't even count that the rates will go up b/c you're going to be short about a million HVAC guys to cover that much work, maybe a couple million. Oh, and I don't think we have 66 million furnaces in inventory currently, so how much does all that manufacturing production ramp up cost? It's a one time thing b/c once we're done demand drops back to normal, so those are going to take a big loss on investment.

now that is only to get off natural gas for heat. That doesn't count insulation and windows and such to meet their efficiency requirements.

All the costs rolled up it's trillions just to retrofit houses, and many can't be retrofitted, so then you're looking at new construction.

Now let's talk about that high speed rail system that is going to totally replace air travel...

[CitizenBBN]

This is so correct.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/wsj-writer-slams-ocasio-cortezs-green-new-deal-says-it-looks-like-dem-parody-bill-written-by-gop

WSJ writer says this thing reads like the GOP did an Onion parody of the Democratic platform. That is so true. it's so absurd no one would laugh, and these people are serious.

Education in this country is in the toilet.

[dan_bgblue]

CBBN, how in hell is enough electric current going to be generated to power up those electric heaters without burning fossil fuels? There are more cloudy days than sunny ones in many parts of the country when the max loads will be needed to heat the buildings. Solar and wind just will not get it done.

[bigsky]

She isn’t dumb. And 75% of people under 30 love her. She is a frightening prospect and the media is all over her every day.

[CitizenBBN]

CBBN, how in hell is enough electric current going to be generated to power up those electric heaters without burning fossil fuels? There are more cloudy days than sunny ones in many parts of the country when the max loads will be needed to heat the buildings. Solar and wind just will not get it done.

It's a mathematical impossibility. We simply don't have the technology.

The thing might as well have called for dilithium anti-matter drives in 10 years to solve the energy problem. Seriously. it's that realistic.

To go to some kind of "zero greenhouse" emission based on their standards we'd have to a) slaughter every farm animal, and then b) live like the Walking Dead. That's the only way we're going to get there in 10 years.

Maybe she can ask if Thanos can do The Snap. That might help.

[Doc]

She isn’t dumb. And 75% of people under 30 love her. She is a frightening prospect and the media is all over her every day.

Lots of dumb people are well liked. I'd say she is as dumb as a fence post because her ideas make zero sense and are logistically impossible, plus they would have little effect since you still have every other nation in the world being a glutton for fossil fuel. Take us out of the equation and far less responsible users become the major consumers and greenhouse gasses increase. She is clueless about foreign policy, and finance.

[CitizenBBN]

She isn’t dumb. And 75% of people under 30 love her. She is a frightening prospect and the media is all over her every day.

Oh, she's dumb. Some people are dumb like a fox, but IMO she really believes this stuff. That's why she's so good at selling it. She really lacks the cognitive ability to see more than one variable in the equation. She wants everyone to have everything like some utopia of PC social justice, and thinks just passing a law magically makes it happen.

I saw this in debate. Some team would run a case and think just passing a law would "make it so." We'd point out it lacked solvency, i.e. you can't pass a law mandating all utility plants run on dilithium anti-matter drives in 10 years b/c it can't be done, and they'd respond that they have a law and that will make it happen.

A great example is when you get into incentive based things. We'd point out that people won't do X even if you mandate it, like for example how banning drugs hasn't really eliminated drug use, and they'd reply that there is a law and that's that and it's magically going to work.

She's like that. Now I agree she is smart enough to know she's making her career and gaining power by doing this, but in the end for someone to suggest such idiotic things they are either complete con artists or stupid enough to think it's workable. I think she's maybe 20/80.

Her staff people are probably even dumber, but I do think she actually thinks this is at least in part achievable. I don't know how you suggest eliminating air travel for high speed rail and not have brain damage. Or getting rid of meat production in the US, specifically cattle.

Now I do agree 100% she and this generation of drooling morons that have been spoon fed stupid pills by the nation's colleges and universities are frightening beyond belief.

I keep thinking this is what Rome must have been like in the waning years, with entire generations of people coming up who were so utterly clueless about what kept the system running that they broke it utterly and didn't even know what they were doing.

The end of the Great Experiment is coming no doubt. I imagine I'll be gone before it's finalized, but I kinda hope not. Should make for great entertainment.

[kingcat]

She appears to be of little substance and all about building a brand to me. Where have we seen the flood the news with nonsensical imaginations and when you offer something abrasively cutting edge, they'll not be as incensed, modus operandi?
The added bonus is you are assured great news coverage and a rabid base of Q-Anon like support.

I'm not impressed with her at all.

[CitizenBBN]

BTW, lots of Americans lack that fundamental ability to go another layer down and look at the reaction to the action and how things really play out. The whole basis of socialism is to not look at that reaction.

Like her suggestion we support those "unwilling" to work. They can't see the obvious point that millions upon millions will then choose not to work, and the machine stops. They can't understand incentive based behavior at all, b/c it's not about the action but the reaction, and they can't go that far.

Prohibition is a great example, and the current drug situation. We tried banning a vice once. We banned it despite many Americans wanting to partake, we spent fortunes trying to enforce it, and in the end it was more pervasive while banned than before the ban.

But did we collectively learn that lesson, check the box and say "OK, in future we have to take the reaction of those who demand a thing into account in our planning"? Nope.

So we went back to banning a thing in great demand. Yes a thing we wish wasn't in demand, but in demand regardless, just like Demon Rum in the 1920s. And it has done the exact same things. We've spent vast treasure on stopping it an all we've done is increase use and fund an entire global criminal network worth trillions designed to provide it through the black market.

People just can't learn the reaction to the action. And interestingly they can't see the action/reaction things that work either. For example, our approach to tobacco, b/c it was too politically powerful to ban outright, worked great. Focusing on treatment and shaming and changing the culture of it has reduced use dramatically without creating any of the adverse side effects such as a black market criminal enterprise.

So they can't see how free markets, not these corporate/government oligarchies but real free markets, solve most of what they want solved.

Sorry, but as I've gotten old I'm less politic about it. If you can't see the action/reaction relationship of human behavior, which is the basis for economic behavior, then you won't see it. If you can see how that works, and honestly since we all do it every day many times you'd think it would be clear, then it's easy to see how wrongheaded these polices will be and are now, and what should be done.

There is one caveat: a lot of "social justice" isn't based on what is best for "me", but rather simple jealousy. If you tell a person you will elevate their standard of living and they will have more and work less, but the price is that your neighbor will get even more than you, many will be incensed and turn that down, even though they are actually hurting themselves. They would rather be poorer and have their neighbors be poor too than be richer and better off but not be as well off relative to others.

it's an interesting failing of the human condition, and that's the source of social justice, socialism and communism. Many would rather be more equal than more prosperous. they don't know that's the decision, but it's the decision.

[CitizenBBN]

She appears to be of little substance and all about building a brand to me. Where have we seen the flood the news with nonsensical imaginations and when you offer something abrasively cutting edge, they'll not be as incensed, modus operandi? The added bonus is you are assured great news coverage.

I'm not impressed with her at all.

She's a loon, and I agree completely she's building a brand, and that part she does know she's doing.

She's got senior Senators chasing her coattails. They're dumber than she is IMO.

That part of what she's doing is smart, there I agree with Bigsky. But I do think she actually believes a lot of this stuff, which means she's stupid but smart enough to play others, which makes her even more dangerous.

It'll be interesting to see if she ends up being the GOP's wet dream. If the 2020 candidates all embrace this kind of lunatic extremism, they may put Trump right back in the big chair. Extremism typically loses the middle in elections, and this kind of policy initiative seriously makes Trump's positions moderate if not centrist by comparison.

[kingcat]

She's a loon, and I agree completely she's building a brand, and that part she does know she's doing.

She's got senior Senators chasing her coattails. They're dumber than she is IMO.

That part of what she's doing is smart, there I agree with Bigsky. But I do think she actually believes a lot of this stuff, which means she's stupid but smart enough to play others, which makes her even more dangerous.

It'll be interesting to see if she ends up being the GOP's wet dream. If the 2020 candidates all embrace this kind of lunatic extremism, they may put Trump right back in the big chair. Extremism typically loses the middle in elections, and this kind of policy initiative seriously makes Trump's positions moderate if not centrist by comparison.

Like I edited to add above, I can see some political advantage to establishing a rabid fringe base of support like the QAnon phenomenon. One that you can eventually distance yourself from but yet reap the benefits of an overtly faithful social media presence.

I have (?) a friend who is now a shape shifter following, lizard fearing QAnon member, and the lengths (non violent) he goes to in support of their cause is freakish.

[Catonahottinroof]

The problem I see is the media is pushing her as the face of the Democratic Party....which she isn’t.

[CitizenBBN]

The problem I see is the media is pushing her as the face of the Democratic Party....which she isn’t.

That's what they are doing, and Pelosi apparently didn't care for it this past week. lol.

In fairness, there's a reason they don't push Pelosi as that face. ;)

[bigsky]

She is doing the thing that got Trump elected. If it sounds good, say it. Maximum populism.

[dan_bgblue]

Now let's talk about that high speed rail system that is going to totally replace air travel..

Those are gonna be some impressive tunnels to far away places for the high speed rail.

[Catonahottinroof]

I’m of that opinion as well. However I also see that brand of extremism fracturing the Democratic Party from people with actual common sense.
She is doing the thing that got Trump elected. If it sounds good, say it. Maximum populism.

[kingcat]

I’m of that opinion as well. However I also see that brand of extremism fracturing the Democratic Party from people with actual common sense.

It's expected of both sides to provide the strange and extraordinary in this made for TV realty show. That's the new theme for both sides

It's like, have someone you can pound on publicly to appease the ever important moderates and crossovers, who also attracts the fringe viewers you cant openly appeal to. Ocasio-Cortez and a guy like Steve King both serve that purpose...and probably will end up sleeping together.

..As the audience screams with seething indignance

[Catonahottinroof]

It’s s given the conservatives aren’t going to agree (which is mostly republican) The problem is level headed democrats who actually think things through won’t buy the line being thrown out hook line and sinker. This is the extreme left dictating (via mainstream media) what the democratic image will be in the future. I have plenty of left leaning friends that see it as bat-$hit crazy and feel like their party is leaving them.

It's expected of both sides to provide the strange and extraordinary in this made for TV realty show. That's the new theme for both sides

It's like, have someone you can pound on publicly to appease the ever important moderates and crossovers, who also attracts the fringe viewers you cant openly appeal to.

..As the audience screams with seething indignance

[kingcat]

I’m of that opinion as well. However I also see that brand of extremism fracturing the Democratic Party from people with actual common sense.

Fair or not, that's exactly what has been said of our president and the republican party by both sides.

Perhaps the next thing we know she'll claim the Chinese and/or Russians will be made to pay for all the changes she proposes, as she drops her hat into the presidential race

[Catonahottinroof]

I see it as different than that kingcat, simply because Trump isn’t a dyed-in-the-wool conservative spouting (and implementing) all their ideals. That portion of the Republican Party doesn’t care for him either. This is a left of center fight IMO and will fracture the centrist democratic base from their more progressive counterparts
Fair or not, that's exactly what has been said of our president and the republican party by both sides.

Perhaps the next thing we know she'll claim the Chinese and/or Russians will be made to pay for all the changes she proposes, as she drops her hat into the presidential race

[kingcat]

I see it as different than that kingcat, simply because Trump isn’t a dyed-in-the-wool conservative spouting (and implementing) all their ideals. That portion of the Republican Party doesn’t care for him either. This is a left of center fight IMO and will fracture the centrist democratic base from their more progressive counterparts

But the fact is the extreme conservatives are exactly at the base of Trumps support. For example many if not most evangelicals are convinced he is either here to usher in the second coming or deliver the country into a heaven here on earth. I know them and have seen that stated by enough to trust in the sample size. Now I understand the president also has the support of many less extreme conservatives but there is no doubt that the extreme right fuels the flames of discord equal to the extreme left. And that both figure into the plans of our president and Ocasio-Cortez respectively. That's why the president kiind of apppreciates her.

The most extreme QAnon followers who are touting our president as judge, jury, and even as the behind the scenes executioner of former President Bush, John McCain and every democrat and republican moderate they are secretly hauling off to Gitmo as we speak. Well, those are the extremes and form a cult'ish political following as extreme as any in the history of our country. At least equal to the most extreme left.
The less extreme is still ardent in their support of the president over even the precepts the country is founded upon, and will admit it.

Now these are still extremes I am talking about but they number in the millions and are now organized where at one time they were not. Social media has changed the game for both parties, and the media has no choice but to cater to such a growing demographic.

I read an article from January that stated.

“I aspire to be the conservative AOC,” Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.) told POLITICO. Gaetz, an outspoken 36-year-old in his second term who has achieved a measure of prominence as a highly visible Trump defender, said there’s just one problem with that aspiration: “I can’t dance for ****.”

"AOC has what I call 'gameness' or competitive heart — the combination of grit, determination, fighting spirit that you can't coach,” Steve Bannon, Trump’s former chief strategist, told POLITICO. “You either have it or you don't, and she has it big league."


Which I translate into someone who is not afraid to use extreme measures and sleep with extreme bedfellows to assure their individual success.

So we will have to disagree on the similarities I see as pretty evident, and even undeniable.

And I dont intend this as a knock on the President. It is something I believe he invented and it's inevitable that if it succeeds, and doesn't fracture the party for one side, the other will adopt it for themselves.

Thats not a good thing imo.

[Catonahottinroof]

All I can say is you were not paying attention in the last election then. Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan flipped simply because Trump addressed populist issues directly to them, and Clinton didn’t. Whether the action taken to address those campaign remains to be seen..
What is going on in the Democratic Party with AOC will not fix the issue. If anything it’s making the gap wider and putting other candidates in the race as independents (Howard Schultz) who can fund his own run much like Trump did who will draw more from the left than the right and Trump gains re-election. Trump has a good section of the conservative base, but not all. He didn’t in 2016 either. Conservatives held their noses and voted for him or didn’t vote at all. If AOC has the influence on the party the media is portraying, its going to happen again too. It took Democrats to elect him in 2016 and the continual drone of socialist ideals from the left will bring the same result again.

[Doc]

As a conservative, Im all for the attention she is getting and all for all the democrat presidential candidates jumping on the bandwagon. Middle/mainstream America hears the word "socialism" and runs. The left base might love it but its middle america/independents that decide elections. Its how Trump won because he realky is more of a centrist than anything. One might not like his personal style, I sure don't, but his policies are fairly moderate despite how the left and media depict him.

As for ACO, I'm not sure why anybody is paying one iota of attention to a freshman congresswoman who has done nothing other than spout off some ridiculous ultra left wing gibberish

[kingcat]

Yet it is the right that is giving her the most attention.

Still I dont think I'm getting my point across well at all. If I were I believe you would agree with me.

But unlike Trump, she has zero chance at a presidential run for obvious reasons. But she does have a chance to garner support otherwise unreachable by mainstream Dems.
And then that support would be hers to wield in support of a legitimate candidate.

And that's not saying I want that type of support for my party of choice.

[ukpumacat]

This went viral.

I'm giving no opinion on her. But this speaks to libertarians too...does it not Chuck?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOnB4Y7nTv8

[Catonahottinroof]

She can be lauded for calling out those who need calling out, no question about that. She cannot be lauded for government takeover of most aspects of our lives, that she’s advocated in the green new deal.

This went viral.

I'm giving no opinion on her. But this speaks to libertarians too...does it not Chuck?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOnB4Y7nTv8

[CitizenBBN]

This went viral.

I'm giving no opinion on her. But this speaks to libertarians too...does it not Chuck?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOnB4Y7nTv8

Calling out corruption sure. But her approach isn't to work on it the Libertarian way, but rather is to deny the underlying rights that limits our ability to come at the problem from the money side.

In the end she doesn't believe in individual rights, and even in some of this you see that clearly. A lot of why we are limited in cleaning up political influence peddling is that it's an individual right to do things like speak for a given candidate. It's a fundamental right. That's been interpreted to mean that a corporation or other entity can take their own money and run ads for a candidate. It's free speech.

She wants to "clean that up", which means she wants to eliminate the ability of non-governmental entities to use money to speak about candidates and thus issues. Who does that leave then? Well it leaves those already in power, it leaves government.

I'm all for eliminating what is IMO an oligarchy that runs this country, a triumvirate of big government, big business and big labor. But we can't do it by carving up the First Amendment.

The problem is really simple: She and those like her do not think individual rights are more important than the larger goals of the majority. Even when it's something we all want, like less influence peddling in Washington, we cannot cross the line of denying individual rights to solve our problems. Those rights are inalienable. If we do then we will not need in the long run to worry about corruption, b/c we will have no rights to worry about protecting from corruption.

The solution is even easier: if government doesn't have complete power over our lives and our economy then there's no reason to bribe politicians b/c they can't do anything for you. The answer isn't to limit the First Amendment, we need that to oppose politiicans and express our ideas. The answer is to do the opposite of what AOC wants, which is to limit government to the point it's just not influential enough to be the center of all economic and social power.

AOC is proposing fascism in the Green New Deal. Supporters have suggested we may have to have government approved control over vacation travel to help reduce emissions. To do what she wants requires government to mandate everything.

If you centralize that much power you will have absolute power and then of course follows absolute corruption. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. the ONLY way out of that is to just not have centralized power.

That's Libertarianism. Don't have a centralized power, then you don't have the ability to be corrupt or deny the Rights of Man b/c there simply isn't power to do so.

So I applaud calling out the false "capitalism" we live with today where massive corporations and massive NGO lobby groups are all in bed with Government on nearly every level from basic bureaucratic reg promulgation to Congressional laws, but her answer is to simply go farther and farther down that same road.

What she's really suggesting is, and I say this without hyperbole, much closer to the true socialist model of former Soviet states, Venezuela, etc. Maybe you could say it's more the current Chinese model, with an iron fisted government directing the private companies but definitely in charge, but if you're going to, by law, make everyone take trains and end air travel and maybe even review the reasons why people travel to make sure it's important enough to produce greenhouse gases, you're basically right there with nationalization and fascism.

The reason I say that is b/c if you want to find some SERIOUS corruption that makes our system look as clean as a bunch of nuns you need to look at governments that have near absolute control and power.

That's what she wants, and in classic socilaist form she dismisses the corruption that comes with it under the belief that everyone who works for government is there for altruistic public service. That's crap and a pipe dream, in socialist or capitalist countries.

She'll concentrate power to such a degree the corruption of "Big Pharma" and "Big Energy" giving money for speeches or ad campaigns will look quaint.

[UKHistory]

She is doing the thing that got Trump elected. If it sounds good, say it. Maximum populism.

The similarities are uncanny. Speaking to populism because grown up nuance is too difficult to digest or accept because it is not all roses 🌹

The extreme elements of both parties if adopted fully would be a danger to democracy.

Republicans need Jack Kemp. Democrats need a Sam Nunn. Not that either was perfect but patriots who were closer to the middle and this is better for America.

The freshmen Congress woman is way over her head. She is inexperienced and unrealistic.

Unwilling to work is not a personal description that one can defend.

Some individuals are so sick they might not be able to hold down a job That pays anything.

Some might poorly define some individuals as unwilling to work. But embracing people that are unwilling is far different than unable.

[Catonahottinroof]

In this instance she’s going at millennial voters with her version of socialism “Agenda 21” populism.

[CitizenBBN]

This is a great example of what I'm talking about.

Today she claimed re the tax incentives offered to Amazon: “If we were willing to give away $3 billion for this deal, we could invest those $3 billion in our district ourselves, if we wanted to."

See, now either she's aware she's lying her ass off, or she's dumber than a fencepost.

B/c tax incentives are monies you don't charge someone in taxes, i.e. they get a tax break versus what they would normally pay as incentive to come to a certain area. But you aren't giving them money from somewhere else, you're simply not charging them full price. The incentive money doesn't exist. It's revenue you don't take from a company coming and bringing jobs and revenue you can then tax. You just don't tax it as much.

Now I'm confident that explanation isn't necessary for a single person on this board.

It's obvious stuff really, I think we'd all agree. So either she's full of crap, using this as a way to convince people who have no clue on Earth about anything that she's really doing a good thing for them, or she really thinks she's doing a good thing.

The reality is that Amazon was going to bring so much money to the area they were willing to not charge them full rate.

this is a normal business practice. Lots and lots of businesses offer discounts on rates for volume or higher dollar business. AOC, having never actually done anything in business ever, of course doesn't know this is normal practice and a smart one.

So is she knowingly spewing this nonsense or is she just that stupid?

[KentuckyWildcat]

I've not read this thread so apologies if this is a different direction.

But AOC has convinced one of the most hardcore democrats I've ever known to start leaning toward to the republican party.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Today she claimed re the tax incentives offered to Amazon: “If we were willing to give away $3 billion for this deal, we could invest those $3 billion in our district ourselves, if we wanted to."

See, now either she's aware she's lying her ass off, or she's dumber than a fencepost.

Dumber than a fence post.

Granted, the 3 billion looks really bad as most do not understand what you explained IMO. And even to me, 3 billion seems like quite a break to Amazon. But still: 25,000 jobs is 25,000 jobs.

[CitizenBBN]

Dumber than a fence post.

Granted, the 3 billion looks really bad as most do not understand what you explained IMO. And even to me, 3 billion seems like quite a break to Amazon. But still: 25,000 jobs is 25,000 jobs.

It's a big break, but New York (albeit likely with padded numbers) was estimating something like $27 billion in added tax revenue from Amazon's presence. So you're kicking in $3 billion to basically fund them building their campus, but then they have a huge cost of exit in the area and you are getting all that tax revenue on the salaries and multipliers.

And you aren't actually spending $3 billion. You're just getting $27 billion from them and the move rather than $30 billion.

Now those numbers are likely generous as the politicians in Albany wanted the deal, but it was still going to be a boon for that area.

People did the same thing to Martha Lane when she went after Toyota in Georgetown. People made the same argument against giving tax breaks to a wealthy company. Now Georgetown and that area has gone from a sleepy bedroom community of Lexington to an active town, and dozens of other companies sprang up to support Toyota, if not hundreds.

Over the years that move has paid back huge for Kentucky b/c it's not like Toyota will just up and move the plant on a whim. The provided thousands of good reliable jobs, they donate millions to local groups, the multiplier effect for Kentucky tax revenue has been 10s if not 100s of millions over these years.

The idea New York was raising $3 billion and just giving it to Bezos is a complete falsehood. Everything she said was wrong.

And I'm with you, I think she just may be that stupid, which maybe makes her more dangerous than if she was just a conman.

[KentuckyWildcat]

It's a big break, but New York (albeit likely with padded numbers) was estimating something like $27 billion in added tax revenue from Amazon's presence. So you're kicking in $3 billion to basically fund them building their campus, but then they have a huge cost of exit in the area and you are getting all that tax revenue on the salaries and multipliers

You take the deal for 25,000 jobs if the estimated revenue was 1/3 of that.

[Doc]

I've not read this thread so apologies if this is a different direction.

But AOC has convinced one of the most hardcore democrats I've ever known to start leaning toward to the republican party.

Are you talking about Nancy, Chuck or Barrach?

[Catonahottinroof]

This situation is replicating itself in California too. Illinois faces it as well. Taxing business out of your state....

[Doc]

Dumber than a fence post.

Granted, the 3 billion looks really bad as most do not understand what you explained IMO. And even to me, 3 billion seems like quite a break to Amazon. But still: 25,000 jobs is 25,000 jobs.

The point is that the money was not money lost. NY didn't have the 3 billion to spend other places because they didn't have the 3 billion to start with. The money was in tax breaks and the idea that it was the already NY's money. NY never had that money, and you can't spend money you don't have......well, the government can....but you can't suggest that the money we don't have would have been spent elsewhere.

[Doc]

This situation is replicating itself in California too. Illinois faces it as well. Taxing business out of your state....

and if things continue, we will be taxing the "they don't pay their fair share" rich out of the country. See where that gets us.

[Doc]

and just more dumbness

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-raises-eyebrows-after-comparing-trumps-border-wall-to-berlin-wall

Of course I knew eventually some democrat was going here, just waiting to see which one.

[Catonahottinroof]

I truly believe the progressive left will split the Democratic Party.
and just more dumbness

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-raises-eyebrows-after-comparing-trumps-border-wall-to-berlin-wall

Of course I knew eventually some democrat was going here, just waiting to see which one.

[CitizenBBN]

and just more dumbness

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-raises-eyebrows-after-comparing-trumps-border-wall-to-berlin-wall

Of course I knew eventually some democrat was going here, just waiting to see which one.

Big difference between walls meant to keep people in and walls meant to keep people out. Not that many don't miss such minor details.

[CitizenBBN]

I truly believe the progressive left will split the Democratic Party.

I honestly hope so b/c the alternative is them following along down the road to what has unveiled itself this year to be unbridled socialism, and in combination with the social justice warriors and PC police will end up being some kind of Maoist communism.

I keep hoping for a 90 degree rotation in political parties in this country, where we get one that is "out of my wallet and my bedroom", i.e. real Libertarianism. A majority of americans still generally feel that way, but they have no political home. I know many hard core Democrats who would vote GOP if not for social issues such as abortion. A true party of limited government, where states decide social issues and the feds provide for defense and foreign policy and that's it, would win a lot of elections.

[Doc]

Big difference between walls meant to keep people in and walls meant to keep people out. Not that many don't miss such minor details.

And its funny that a socialist would miss that distinction

[CitizenBBN]

And its funny that a socialist would miss that distinction

it has a certain delicious irony that they reference a wall put up by a socialist nation to keep people from fleeing en masse to a capitalist one. One people tried to cross anyway under pain of death their lives were so relatively worse off under socialism.

It's secondarily delicious irony that part of why their lives were so bad is that socialist nations are also the least "green" of any countries, routinely polluting their nations to the bring of the abyss due to the lack of wealth creation it takes to be able to expend on environmental protections.

The worst polluters in the US and worldwide are government or government protected entities. The burn pits of the military, the water poisoning, the Oak Ridge facility, Area 51, you name it. Companies have done bad things too, but the difference is those companies are then liable for billions in damages. There is at least some level of accountability. Ask folks in the military how those lawsuits over Agent Orange and burn pits are going.

Ask East Germans how nice that river was in Berlin before the fall of that wall. Ask the Chinese about the air in Bejing, or how the natural resources of Venezuela are being treated right now.

Idiots. The empirical evidence is in. We have had 50-70 year experiments with government control, and matching experiments in free markets over the same time period. Neither proved to be utopia or perfect, but a clear winner in terms of standard of living, freedom and even environmental quality emerged and it wasn't the bill of goods they are selling.

[Doc]

If we had a train that could get me from Fort Lauderdale to Las Vegas in 8 hours for $400, great. I'm fine with that but when it 2 days and $800, not so much, especially when British Airways, Air France, Quantas, Air Lingus, Qutar Air, etc are all flying around the earth, and Americans are taking a train to Montreal so they can catch a plane to an international destination

[ukpumacat]

A true party of limited government, where states decide social issues and the feds provide for defense and foreign policy and that's it, would win a lot of elections.

Agreed it would.

[CitizenBBN]

Agreed it would.

And it's what the FOunders intended. Even in their day some states were more conservative on social issues, some more liberal on other issues. It never mattered to the federal government b/c it wasn't their job.

It didn't mean there weren't huge battles. The battles over slavery and tariffs came together to cause a Civil War, but we'd be better off IMO letting things get settled at the state level as much as possible, and focus the national party on a limited government, live and let live platform.

It's not perfect, but it would better reflect the nation, and give us a chance to come together on things we can, and agree to disagree but not force ourselves on each other on things on which we disagree.

[Catonahottinroof]

Funny you mention tariffs. Most folks don’t know, or even acknowledge that triggered much of the Civil War.
And it's what the FOunders intended. Even in their day some states were more conservative on social issues, some more liberal on other issues. It never mattered to the federal government b/c it wasn't their job.

It didn't mean there weren't huge battles. The battles over slavery and tariffs came together to cause a Civil War, but we'd be better off IMO letting things get settled at the state level as much as possible, and focus the national party on a limited government, live and let live platform.

It's not perfect, but it would better reflect the nation, and give us a chance to come together on things we can, and agree to disagree but not force ourselves on each other on things on which we disagree.

[Catonahottinroof]

And the economic illiteracy of AOC chased Amazon’s HQ from NYC along with its $1B impact per year. She feels the $3B incentive the state of NY was giving should be spent on every socialist wet dream under the sun. She (and many of her thinking)fail to realize there is no $3B in the coffers waiting to be giving. The best explanation I can give for it is like a coupon the state of NY had given to Amazon for the tax rate to be less than retail in exchange for relocation over a 25 year span.

[bigsky]

$90 trillion for the green new deal is “soo many sweet potato cubes”.

[Catonahottinroof]

$600,000 per household.....let that sink in a bit....

$90 trillion for the green new deal is “soo many sweet potato cubes”.

[Doc]

Initially it was 9 trillion. I laughed at that suggestion.

Funny that spending $9,000,000,000,000 to $92,000,000,000,000 is something the democrats get behind and support, but think $1,600,000,000 is too much to spend on a wall... or at least that is ONE of their arguments. That is 0.0018%...because democrats are so fiscally responsible. :sCo_huhsign:

[Catonahottinroof]

You can give me $600,000 and I’ll take care of all you need and have some left over.....

[CitizenBBN]

For $92 Trillion we could probably put it into R&D and invent cold fusion or warp reactors or something and end the limitation on resources altogether.

You mean rebuilding or retrofitting every single home and business in America to be green might cost something? Huh.. Never would have made the connection.

[KentuckyWildcat]

And I'm with you, I think she just may be that stupid, which maybe makes her more dangerous than if she was just a conman.


I have decided that you owe all of my fence posts an apology.

[CitizenBBN]

I have decided that you owe all of my fence posts an apology.

At least fence posts are useful. You have a point.

[dan_bgblue]

I am not sure how dumb she is, but it is obvious to me that she believes the sheep are easily duped...................

The piece mentioned the New York Democrat’s call in January for more sustainable energy solutions: "The world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change,” she said at the time.


report accuses her of 'Green New Deal' hypocrisy
(https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-responds-to-criticism-of-travel-methods-while-pushing-to-address-climate-change)

[Catonahottinroof]

Economics major from Boston University.....let that sink in in too..

[CitizenBBN]

Economics major from Boston University.....let that sink in in too..

What she knows about economics wouldn't fill a thimble. Tells you a lot about the state of education these days.

Micro is I imagine still largely OK, but macroeconomics has long been filled with clever idiots. People who forget that economics is the study of how individuals react and behave, and that all macro movements are a function of micro behaviors and decisions.

[bigsky]

Now she is forced to take plastic bags at the grocery. Forced!

[Doc]

but potentially she thinks like a politician where the laws are suggestion for them. I hope the new AG goes after her campaign finance issue as hard as the left is going at Trump.

[UKHistory]

I am not sure how dumb she is, but it is obvious to me that she believes the sheep are easily duped...................

The piece mentioned the New York Democrat’s call in January for more sustainable energy solutions: "The world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change,” she said at the time.


report accuses her of 'Green New Deal' hypocrisy
(https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-responds-to-criticism-of-travel-methods-while-pushing-to-address-climate-change)

If it really is 12 years, lets just party.

[Doc]

If it really is 12 years, lets just party.

She didn't happen to give us an exact date, right? Is so, can we change the "debt clock" above to the "end of the world/ apocalypse" countdown? I need to start on my bucket list now.

Oh, and where is the actual science to support this?

[bigsky]

My mortgage companies are gonna be so mad. The lack of morality and personal responsibility all makes sense if the world IS gonna end in 12 years. Why aren’t we all wearing a duck suit and drunk on a beach somewhere? I am waiting for one of those Hollywood jerks to sell me their millions of dollars beachfront house for pennies because it is about to dive dive dive

[CitizenBBN]

Told you she was dumb as a fence post:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-falsely-claims-republicans-amended-constitution-to-kick-fdr-out-of-office

Socialism: the stupid leading the blind.

[Catonahottinroof]

The gift that keeps on giving lol

[CitizenBBN]

This is an oldie but a goodie, remembered it b/c it was mentioned in that article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/12/04/alexandria-ocasio-cortezs-trillion-mistake/?utm_term=.e481fd3722b1

“$21 TRILLION of Pentagon financial transactions ‘could not be traced, documented, or explained.’ $21T in Pentagon accounting errors. Medicare for All costs ~$32T. That means 66% of Medicare for All could have been funded already by the Pentagon.”
— Rep.-elect Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.), in a tweet (https://twitter.com/Ocasio2018/status/1069307293752279040), Dec. 2, 2018

Of course the Pentagon annual budget is around $600 billion a year, so if we wiped out the entire US military, the $32T cost is over 10 years, so we could pay for 6T of the 32T if we had NO MILITARY WHATSOEVER.

The article she obviously didn't or couldn't read points out the "missing" $21T is on both sides of the DoD ledger, and includes lots of duplicate budget dollars not being tracked multiple times. The point of the story was that the Pentagon has absolutely horrid bookeeping, but that $21T isn't just money somehow missing or not used or sitting there.

Which is just like her belief that $3B in New York tax breaks to Amazon can now somehow be spent b/c it is apparently in a pot of gold under Gov. Cuomo's mansion.

Seriously, she's an idiot. A complete fool. She doesn't understand the most basic concept of accounting or economics or American history, despite having a degree in the subject.

Which shows how the biggest ripoff in this nation right now is the bill you get for a college education. They're a joke. They turn out people who don't have a clue in the world what is going on and charge you $50K a year in the process.

[Doc]

I started a thread but will delete

She does realize FDR died in office, right? Is a corpse qualified to be president?

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez falsely claims Republicans amended Constitution to kick FDR out of office.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-falsely-claims-republicans-amended-constitution-to-kick-fdr-out-of-office

[CitizenBBN]

Harry Truman is sure offended by her lack of knowledge.

Dumb. As. Rock.

[Doc]

Harry Truman is sure offended by her lack of knowledge.

Dumb. As. Rock.

Plus he would not get credit for ending the war... but then I'm sure some other democrat would take credit.

[CitizenBBN]

Plus he would not get credit for ending the war... but then I'm sure some other democrat would take credit.

Given the way he ended the war I doubt if any of them have the guts to stand up and say it was the right decision.

Say, wouldn't it be fun to give AOC, and really the whole Congress, a history test? And an economics test too. Micro econ, something that can't be debated.

She'd have answers on there that would end up on one of those youtube videos of funniest test answers. those videos are usually full of answers from 6-12 year olds, but I bet hers would fit right in.

Of course if the Left gets its way we'll simply have a Cultural Revolution and purge all those false and misleading facts from schools and books.

[Doc]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez uses pricey croissants to criticize opponents of $15 minimum wage

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-uses-pricey-croissants-to-criticize-opponents-minimum-wage

I wanna know why she is at Laguidaria. Why not Grand Cental Station and catch a train?

And who the hell think the price of ANY airport food is relevant. If the point is that a croussant cost $7 hence we should pay everybody at least $15...do that and your Airport Pastry is $20....and $1.50 at the corner bakery

[KeithKSR]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez uses pricey croissants to criticize opponents of $15 minimum wage

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-uses-pricey-croissants-to-criticize-opponents-minimum-wage

I wanna know why she is at Laguidaria. Why not Grand Cental Station and catch a train?

And who the hell think the price of ANY airport food is relevant. If the point is that a croussant cost $7 hence we should pay everybody at least $15...do that and your Airport Pastry is $20....and $1.50 at the corner bakery

LaGuardia employees already have a $19+ minimum wage. Apparently she thinks everyone should have to pay $7 for a croissant.

[Doc]

every day is a new adventure

Ocasio-Cortez slammed as 'financially illiterate' at Sharpton event over Amazon, faces calls to be ousted from office

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-slammed-as-financially-illiterate-at-sharpton-event-over-amazon-faces-calls-to-be-ousted-from-office



and she now speaks ebonic---- "Aint nothing wrong with that" but she forgot to end with the N word.........shiiiii

AOC mocked for ‘accent’ at Sharpton event; compared to Hillary Clinton

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-mocked-for-accent-at-sharpton-event-compared-to-hillary-clinton

[Catonahottinroof]

I wonder if voters in her district are beginning to figure out she’s a financial moron? Even doubly worse that she actually has an economics degree......

[Doc]

I wonder if voters in her district are beginning to figure out she’s a financial moron? Even doubly worse that she actually has an economics degree......

I am wondering if that degree isn't from UNC-CH*

[CitizenBBN]

I wonder if voters in her district are beginning to figure out she’s a financial moron? Even doubly worse that she actually has an economics degree......

She's going to have an interesting re-election race. At least 2 people have announced they are running against her, and her running off Amazon had a lot of detractors in her district that wanted that company coming in with those jobs.

she's now got off the charts name recognition and national cred, but is she delivering what her constituents really want? Given that district was held forever by a Democratic moderate I have to wonder if her base is anywhere near this radical.

with a few exceptions most districts care more about fundamental things like jobs and health care than her tripe. I'm betting she gets a couple of interesting challengers, one in the primary and one in the general even though it's a strongly Democratic district.

Her primary challenger will be her biggest problem.

[dan_bgblue]

Muslims were so ticked off at terror attacks against muslims in New Zealand, that they decided to blow up part of the Philippines. We should definitely lift the ban on muslims wanting to enter this country and make sure they all live on the same block in DC with AOC.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-called-out-for-abnormal-silence-over-sri-lanka-terror-attacks-while-seizing-over-new-zealand-attack

[KSRBEvans]

AOC dunks on Kentucky Republicans for posing next to a cardboard cutout of her.

Only problem is, that's no Kentucky Republican--that's John Yarmuth, Democrat Congressman from KY-3 and House Budget Committee Chairman:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5AuaPMXkAIRLDQ.jpg

https://twitter.com/CalebJHull/status/1121447495408734213

I think that's what is known as an "own goal."

[CitizenBBN]

He's white and male, that's enough to trigger people these days. lol.

You would think she'd bother to know the most important Committee Chairs, but then again you'd think she wouldn't think the Pentagon had mis-spent $92 trillion in the past several years when the entire Federal Budget is less than $4 trillion.

Other graduates of her university should sue for some kind of economic damage from her showing herself to be so jaw droppingly dumb and still got a degree.

[dan_bgblue]

How do you make AOC's eyes twinkle? Shine a flashlight in her ear.

[MickintheHam]

How do you make AOC's eyes twinkle? Shine a flashlight in her ear.

Made my day!

[MickintheHam]

He's white and male, that's enough to trigger people these days. lol.

You would think she'd bother to know the most important Committee Chairs, but then again you'd think she wouldn't think the Pentagon had mis-spent $92 trillion in the past several years when the entire Federal Budget is less than $4 trillion.

Other graduates of her university should sue for some kind of economic damage from her showing herself to be so jaw droppingly dumb and still got a degree.

Obviously, you don't understand. Numbers are numbers. They make no difference. The point is she doesn't like the Dept of Defense and you shouldn't either. That's what's wrong with old white men. They argue technicalities.

[CitizenBBN]

Obviously, you don't understand. Numbers are numbers. They make no difference. The point is she doesn't like the Dept of Defense and you shouldn't either. That's what's wrong with old white men. They argue technicalities.

Yeah, my misogyny and racism knows no bounds to stick to things like actual facts.

[Catonahottinroof]

This gem happened Thursday and stayed up for a good bit until she was called out for Yarmuth being a Democrat lol
7989

[Doc]

This gem happened Thursday and stayed up for a good bit until she was called out for Yarmuth being a Democrat lol
7989

Maybe we can a snapshot of Creepy Joe Biden sniffing her cardboard hair

[UKHistory]

He's white and male, that's enough to trigger people these days. lol.

You would think she'd bother to know the most important Committee Chairs, but then again you'd think she wouldn't think the Pentagon had mis-spent $92 trillion in the past several years when the entire Federal Budget is less than $4 trillion.

Other graduates of her university should sue for some kind of economic damage from her showing herself to be so jaw droppingly dumb and still got a degree.

While the law defines (technically there are 4 key statutes). improper payments in broad strokes, many of those dollars were not misspent. They just don’t have all the proper documentation to support the dollars were spent appropriately.

A correct payment could be late and would be counted improper. A payment might require three signatures and the paper trail has two.

On the flip side a payment could be late or may not have been paid at all for several years incurring fines, interest, etc. the payment will be defined as improper but the fines and interests, provided they are paid accurately and timely, would not be considered a part of the improper payment. Although the actual improper payment may cost tax payers more than what is actually listed.

[TRUCKERCATFAN]

I saw this morning on Twitter that she was calling for Barr to resign. I replied to her tweet and told her “the only thing you know about Barr is that you used to serve drinks in one”.

[Doc]

Speaking of dumb.... I'll give a vote to Omar as a close runner up on the stupid chart.

Trump "biggest nemisis"? (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ilhan-omar-calls-herself-trump-biggest-nemesis)

I suspect the Donald could not a give a **** about a freshman senator who only makes Trump look better because she says more stupid stuff than he does. And I love self proclaiming people.

[CitizenBBN]

Trump loves Omar and AOC. They are doing everything they can to frighten middle of the road voters in key states that voting for a Democrat will bring real socialism, anti-semitism etc. into fruition. And if they were in charge that's exactly what we'd see, they're pretty honest about it.

The best thing that could happen for Trump is for them to keep the base all inflamed so they wont' vote for a nice moderate like Biden and they end up with Bernie. Then the GOP can run ads of Bernie's endorsement of Castro and Che all day long. Will suit him fine.

[Catonahottinroof]

Smh....

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/may/7/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-garbage-disposal-video-hi/

[CitizenBBN]

Smh....

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/may/7/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-garbage-disposal-video-hi/

Wow, didn't know what a garbage disposal was.

I love her attempt to be hip with slang. Using a word derived from "bourgeois" to describe where she lives. Holding up the Communist/Socialist mantra well though: criticize the rich and powerful as a means to become rich and powerful, all the time whining about the poor while you enjoy the good life.

I'm glad they included this one:

But AOC has an explanation for her string of errors and gaffes and just plain dumb statements. In a CNN appearance the day after she was sworn into office, she said: “I think that there’s a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.”

That sums it up right there. The actual facts aren't important to her, or her ilk. What is important is what they believe, and if the facts just get in the way then ignore them.

She really is this dumb, and she's a member of Congress.

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, and if this doesn't make the case for the relative lack of value of a college education, and the massive investment it requires, nothing does.

Seriously, she has a college degree in economics and she thinks the Pentagon wasted $92 Trillion dollars over 10 years. They wasted $9.2 trillion a year with a total federal budget of only half that amount.

Honestly she shouldn't have passed high school with her level of intelligence, much less college. it's proof positive you can get through 4 years of college and be a complete idiot and not learn a damned thing, so the degree tells us absolutely nothing about the capabilities of a person, so what value does it really have?

As a credential it's worthless. You can certainly go to college and learn a lot, and really take advantage of all it has to offer. Or you can go and get the same piece of paper and come out dumber than you were when you started. But the paper tells you nothing b/c it doesn't really require you ever develop critical thinking skills or common sense. It lets the idiots through as well as the geniuses, and they both end up with the same paper.

If I was a Boston U grad I'd sue her for devaluing my degree.

[Doc]

Oh, and if this doesn't make the case for the relative lack of value of a college education, and the massive investment it requires, nothing does.

Seriously, she has a college degree in economics and she thinks the Pentagon wasted $92 Trillion dollars over 10 years. They wasted $9.2 trillion a year with a total federal budget of only half that amount.

Honestly she shouldn't have passed high school with her level of intelligence, much less college. it's proof positive you can get through 4 years of college and be a complete idiot and not learn a damned thing, so the degree tells us absolutely nothing about the capabilities of a person, so what value does it really have?

As a credential it's worthless. You can certainly go to college and learn a lot, and really take advantage of all it has to offer. Or you can go and get the same piece of paper and come out dumber than you were when you started. But the paper tells you nothing b/c it doesn't really require you ever develop critical thinking skills or common sense. It lets the idiots through as well as the geniuses, and they both end up with the same paper.

If I was a Boston U grad I'd sue her for devaluing my degree.

That is illustrated every year for the past 2 decades in North Carolina

[Doc]

Wow, didn't know what a garbage disposal was.

I love her attempt to be hip with slang. Using a word derived from "bourgeois" to describe where she lives. Holding up the Communist/Socialist mantra well though: criticize the rich and powerful as a means to become rich and powerful, all the time whining about the poor while you enjoy the good life.

I'm glad they included this one:

But AOC has an explanation for her string of errors and gaffes and just plain dumb statements. In a CNN appearance the day after she was sworn into office, she said: “I think that there’s a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.”

That sums it up right there. The actual facts aren't important to her, or her ilk. What is important is what they believe, and if the facts just get in the way then ignore them.

She really is this dumb, and she's a member of Congress.

she took lessons from Creepy Joe Biden

[Doc]

Ocasio-Cortez 'entertaining' idea of endorsing 2020 Democratic candidate, possibly Sanders or Warren

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-2020-endorsement-bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren

The kiss of death?

One thing I will say, the idea of capping interest rates credit card companies can charge is something I can get on board with. 20 plus percent is almost loan sharking at best, thievery at worse. But so is extorting money from banks to pay for your ludicrous give-a-ways to buy votes

[CitizenBBN]

She suggested that capping card rates was "radical". Honestly that's the only thing out of her mouth I've ever heard that is at least NOT radical.

The only difference, and IMO it is a big difference, is those are state laws. I googled and about half of the US states have usury laws of some kind, so this isn't a new concept.

But yes she'll mess it up, on several levels. First, if you cap them too low all you do is hurt people who have bad credit b/c they simply won't get credit cards. They are higher risk, companies have to charge more to cover the higher rate of default.

That's like the cash for clunkers program. It only hurts those it portends to help by cutting them completely out of the market.

Second, no doubt they'll pile on a bunch of other regs and details and filing requirments, and then want to somehow raise government revenue from it and spend it on something else.

But it's not a radical concept. I'm against it, the market can work just fine on its own if they just do more to deregulate the hyper high costs of entering financial markets rather than adding more regulation, but it's not radical.

[dan_bgblue]

She is smart enough to have at least 10 "uncle Joes" fawning over her like a pack of male mutts sniffing around a bitch in heat.

8008

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, she's got the Dems wrapped on her little finger, other than Pelosi.

It's like watching the dumb hot chick getting asked by 10 guys to prom.

And my she is dumb.

[CitizenBBN]

This is genius:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-impersonator-green-new-deal

[dan_bgblue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMsov0H06g0

[CitizenBBN]

Thanks for posting that Dan.

"It costs $93 trillion dollars. do you know how much that is? Me either, b/c it's totally worth it."

not sure if this is a parody or of they're just reading AOC quotes.

[CitizenBBN]

For the love of Pete...

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-growing-cauliflower-colonial


Growing Cauliflower instead of yucca offends "people of color" b/c it's "colonial".

Can this get any more stupid? It's flat depressing people actually buy into this complete lunacy. It's the mental equivalent of believing wrestling is real. It's dumber than that really.

Do we sue Italy for cultural appropriation next since they stole tomatoes from the Americas? Am I allowed to eat corn since I'm an European oppressor?

I think a big chunk of this country is just too stupid. They're holding back the evolution of the species.

[dan_bgblue]

Every time this woman opens her mouth to speak, a book in a library somewhere bursts into flames.

[Doc]

Facepalm

Detention facilities = Concentration camps? (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/cheney-ocasio-cortez-concentration-camp-democrats-condemn)

When in doubt, bring out the old Godwin's Law!

Lets see the differences.
1) I don't recall any Jews sneaking across the boarder into Poland or Czechoslovakia voluntarily knowing that they were likely to end up in a concentration camp
2) I don't recall Nazi concentration camps providing medical treatment (unless you consider Josef Mengele's experiments as medical treatment)
3) Detention camp occupants are not forced laborers
4) Detention camp occupants are not starved or forced to eat their valuable, and then have dig thru their own waste to retrieve them
5) Don't recall hearing about those in detention camps having their teeth pulled in order to retrieve the gold fillings

"Do not worry, it is only a chemical shower...."

Surely she isn't that big of an idiot....or maybe she is.

[KeithKSR]

Surely she isn't that big of an idiot....or maybe she is.

Based on the frequency of the stupid stuff she throws out it is becoming obvious that she is that stupid.

[Doc]

http://coralspringstalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/dachau-survivors.jpg

vs

https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/fashion/daily/2018/06/18/CBP/mcallen-detention-center-10.w700.h467.jpg

[Doc]

I'll add

route they got there:

Detention center
https://images.wsj.net/im-31982?width=620&aspect_ratio=1.5


Concentration camp
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRHMJdfL0a4d53FrfNlh0Sazbb5UiUJQ TtwVYm4bdty6oog0z9v

[Doc]

I believe anybody who wants to leave the detention centers and go back home to their native county is able to do so. I don't think that could have happened in Nazi Germany

[CitizenBBN]

Neither she nor her party will vote for more funding to house and hold all these illegals coming across the border, yet she's upset at the conditions for their detention.

Of course what she wants is to just ignore immigration law and let anyone in the country that walks across, without detention or arrest or any legal status issues whatsoever.

And you know what? that's fine. All she has to do, being a member of Congress, is get Congress to pass a law saying that it's LEGAL, b/c right now Congressionally passed law says the Executive has to detain these people b/c it's currently ILLEGAL. Thus the term "illegal alien".

but they don't have the votes to do that, so their solution is to just let the system collapse through lack of funding. It's an end run around their own laws and the general will of the people to not have unquestioned open borders for anyone to walk across.

If the Democratic House doesn't like the conditions at the detention centers they can fix that problem. But they don't want it fixed, they want those conditions as bad as possible so they can argue against having any detention at all.

I'd say it's clever but any 7th grader should be able to see right through it.

[UKHistory]

https://www.npr.org/sections/publiceditor/2012/02/10/146691773/euphemisms-concentration-camps-and-the-japanese-internment

I am sharing this article written in 2012 discussing the use of the term concentration camp comparing and contrasting its historical use before and after Nazi Germany and the comparisons made with the Japanese Internment Camps.

The article written doesn't address immigration but discusses the use of the term and how concentration camps predated Nazis whose concentration camps Death camps.

For many of us the term concentration camp evokes the connotations associated with the Nazis.

Reading the article and seeing the term has been used in the past and how historians have interpreted its meaning may give a little context to how we are defining the camps of illegal immigrants today.

The child separation is the bigger issue in how people are being detained to me.

Immigration reform as well as determining how best to address asylum seekers is paramount.

Congress should tackle the issues and craft laws that address today's circumstances. Instead both parties, whose rich elites have benefitted from illegal immigrants for decades, defer to the executive or the judicial to make decisions.

Work to fix the system.

[Doc]

https://www.npr.org/sections/publiceditor/2012/02/10/146691773/euphemisms-concentration-camps-and-the-japanese-internment

I am sharing this article written in 2012 discussing the use of the term concentration camp comparing and contrasting its historical use before and after Nazi Germany and the comparisons made with the Japanese Internment Camps.

The article written doesn't address immigration but discusses the use of the term and how concentration camps predated Nazis whose concentration camps Death camps.

For many of us the term concentration camp evokes the connotations associated with the Nazis.

Reading the article and seeing the term has been used in the past and how historians have interpreted its meaning may give a little context to how we are defining the camps of illegal immigrants today.

The child separation is the bigger issue in how people are being detained to me.

Immigration reform as well as determining how best to address asylum seekers is paramount.

Congress should tackle the issues and craft laws that address today's circumstances. Instead both parties, whose rich elites have benefitted from illegal immigrants for decades, defer to the executive or the judicial to make decisions.

Work to fix the system.

There is one HUGE difference that is overlooked. In the given situations, the camps were not voluntary. The Japanese did not choose to be encamped. Those coming here illegally are doing so by their choice..and if they elect to, they can leave and return home to their native land. These West Coast Japanese/Americans or Russians sent to the Gulag or those inturned during the Boer War did not have that option.

The comparison IS offensive to the millions who died at the hands of Hitler and his murderous band.

[dan_bgblue]

I believe it is time for her to revisit the science, or total lack of science, behind her 12 years out prediction for the end of the world.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190627114111.htm

[Catonahottinroof]

It’s a talking point...since 1989....
https://www.apnews.com/bd45c372caf118ec99964ea547880cd0

I believe it is time for her to revisit the science, or total lack of science, behind her 12 years out prediction for the end of the world.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190627114111.htm

[dan_bgblue]

Good grief, if she is basing her prognostications on UN data, she should be knee deep in liquid trash in New York's 14th today.

[CitizenBBN]

That's the problem with Doomsayer science. It presumes a lot of fixed constants that are in fact variable. Goes back all the way to Malthus and his projections of mass starvation. he observed that population was growing geometrically and food supplies growing linearly, but of course he didn't understand that the linear growth in food was just about demand and when demand increased the growth rate changed.

In the 70s these same groups were predicting starvation and both global warming and cooling among other disasters. They all hold things constant that aren't constant, like the ability of technological innovation to create substitutes in response to demand, change in behavior, innovation that is unrelated that changes the whole equation, etc.

Does it mean we should pollute wildly? Of course not. It's clear that is a bad idea and yes if we don't do something about it we will pay a price, but it's also not a dire zero sum universe where we can only avoid doomsday by abandoning air travel and meat eating and go back to grazing on the plain in small bands of foragers and farmers.

But these kinds of crazy end of the world predictions from AOC and the UN and other groups who coincidentally all are for massive government intervention in every aspect of our lives are not a good basis for policy. We will lose our freedoms unnecessarily and in the end not even help address the problem. It will be a lose lose where the world pollutes as much or more and we simultaneously lose the principles of individual liberty upon which this nation was founded.

[KeithKSR]

There are some predictions that the coming solar minimum could rival the Maunder Minimum.

https://principia-scientific.org/study-solar-cycle-to-cause-a-mini-ice-age-as-early-as-2020/

What will that do to the alarmists?

[Catonahottinroof]

My view of Boston University has hit new lows....since they educated this twit...

[UKHistory]

I am not a fan but the manner in which the 10-15 group photoshopped images of AOC, I am not criticizing her today

Some if not all Her policies deserve ridicule. She should not be demeaned the way the ice guards d picture her on the site. That site has 9,500 members. Not all are pigs. But The good ones are consorting with pigs.

We talked about concentration camps and what constitutes such a facility. If the guards act like nazi pigs, there is a vote for a concentration camp.

[Doc]

"And the beat goes on"

Sonny Bono 1967


Ocasio-Cortez allegedly screamed at border agents during recent trip to southern border: report

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-border-agents-southern-border

[Doc]

I am not a fan but the manner in which the 10-15 group photoshopped images of AOC, I am not criticizing her today

Some if not all Her policies deserve ridicule. She should not be demeaned the way the ice guards d picture her on the site. That site has 9,500 members. Not all are pigs. But The good ones are consorting with pigs.

We talked about concentration camps and what constitutes such a facility. If the guards act like nazi pigs, there is a vote for a concentration camp.

I hope you take the same attitude to photoshopped images of Trump, such as the ones of him playing golf with Swastka golf balls, etc.... or "vulgar and degrading" comments about him which seem to be quite the rage. But I agree. Such things need not be done, and the actions of a few taint the actions of all. Of course in using the actions of a few to taint an entire group would be no different than suggesting all congress people are racist or Jewphobic based on comments of Omar Talib. One person does not speak for the group, nor do internet posts while away from.work. She is worthy of criticism 365 days a year for being a friggin idiot

[UKHistory]

Attack her For being a friggin idiot--yes. To demean in her those images in such a violent and forceful way--no.

And you are right about Trump. He doesn't deserve to be treated that way in images. And if I don't speak up then I am wrong for being inconsistent.

Criticize ideas. Criticize actions. Don't threaten a woman with rape. Those images do that. That is a real problem.

[Doc]

So, who to believe? A congress woman who has been calling for ICE to be abolished and pining for closure of detention centers, even to the point of equating them to concentration camps

or

A minister who happens to be a Latino? https://www.foxnews.com/politics/immigration-border-facility-aoc-hispanic

[UKHistory]

The redacted images I saw of the facebook page make me cringe. If those are accurate (and we can't seem to agree on what images or statement are remotely accurately portrayed anymore in this country)

I will read the article. I am unclear as to which sites were documented this group of attorneys as so spartan conditions.

Guards, all guards, have a tendency to dehumanize those incarcerated.

AOC assuredly has an agenda and position. The guards who photoshopped the images and wrote demeaning and insulting things only work to prove her point.

Treating her with respect and the folks detained at the sites as human beings goes a long way with defending our borders the right way.

There are a lot of good people who want secure borders and who disagree on the means of achieving that.

One thing you said or I interpreted you saying was the folks at the sites could leave and head back south.

If I understood your comment correctly and I am not sure of that. These folks broke the law and generally people detained for breaking the law, even misdemeanors as is the case, are not allowed to leave. Certainly underage children, separated from their parents, could not or should not be told to head south unaccompanied.

Maybe they would prefer to stay at the sites as opposed to returning home via Mexico. I am not sure. But I am not sure they are given the option to leave on their own either.

[Doc]

My position is the facebook posts are irrelevant to what is happening at the detension center. I would have more sympathy to AOC and her being disrepected if she were not so disrespectful herself. See, I take calling the President a traitor as highly disrespectful. Some might say a photoshopped image of her going Monica Lewinski on "the Donald" is on a different plane, but not me. One was a joke (poor one at that) and one is the serious accusation that the leader of this country is a traitor. I find a joke as something that some get and some don't. Being called a traitor and meaning it is far worse in my book. Said the same about those who hurled that at BHO too. You reap what you sow IMO. That said, two wrongs don't make a right.

As for the detention centers...she CLEARLY has an agenda. She voted against ALL funding bills for the border because she want no border, no immigration controls, etc so why not create a "they drink out of toilets" scenario....because democrats have a storied history of flat out lying to achieve their goals. Simply put, I don't believe her. Personally I am sick and tired of law enforcement officers being treated like ####bags because they are doing their job. Might some detention center detainee have drunk out of a toilet? Possible but I doubt anybody was force to do so. I do know this, she didn't see it. A detainee told her. Well, lets say I am skeptical. Somebody also told a congress woman that Bret Kavanugh raped them. Telling somebody something when that person has an agenda means nothing to me...zero

[Catonahottinroof]

Both sides are guilty of creating a narrative. However, there is no proof of her claim on the Detention centers.....none.
And the photos that were staged, and then propagated by the media of her looking distressed.....were looking at an empty parking lot....all for perpetuating the narrative.

[Doc]

Both sides are guilty of creating a narrative. However, there is no proof of her claim on the Detention centers.....none.
And the photos that were staged, and then propagated by the media of her looking distressed.....were looking at an empty parking lot....all for perpetuating the narrative.

Its a big fat narrative, much like the "Donald Trump is putting kids in cages" then using pictures from the Obama era as proof.

I'm not for abuse or mistreatment ... but will say if ANY OF THE DETAINES WANT OUT, THEY ARE FREE TO LEAVE AT ANY TIME and head back south to Mexico, Venezula, Guatamala, etc.... In essence they are there ON THEIR OWN FREE WILL. They are not prisoners. To leave, all they need to do is request to be returned.

[Catonahottinroof]

and unfortunately, she’s earned The skewering she getting from this whole episode. 8189

[KeithKSR]

The types of toilets she claims people are drinking out of, while at the same time claiming there is no running water. 8190

Obviously, clean, potable water is dispensed at the top, while the toilet portion is located below.

[CitizenBBN]

The types of toilets she claims people are drinking out of, while at the same time claiming there is no running water. 8190

Obviously, clean, potable water is dispensed at the top, while the toilet portion is located below.

Keith, this is the woman who raved about the fabulous new invention she'd never seen.. the garbage disposal.

Seriously, she did. She may legitimately think the whole thing is a "toilet" b/c she really is that dumb.

But she's also a socialist, and there hasn't been one yet who won't lie their ass off to promote their ideology.

[Doc]

I once urinated in a sink at Commonweath. Does that make the sink a toilet?

[dan_bgblue]

Death threats for Mini AOC. (https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/mini-aoc-ends-parody-videos-after-receiving-death-threats-harassment-from-left)

"The Left's Harassment and death threats have gone too far for our family. We have been getting calls on our personal phone numbers," Martinez's stepfather Salvatore Schachter tweeted. "For our safety and for our child's safety, we deleted all Mini AOC accounts."

Death threats for a fun loving 8 year old?

[Catonahottinroof]

Ah yes...the tolerant left....

Death threats for Mini AOC. (https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/mini-aoc-ends-parody-videos-after-receiving-death-threats-harassment-from-left)

"The Left's Harassment and death threats have gone too far for our family. We have been getting calls on our personal phone numbers," Martinez's stepfather Salvatore Schachter tweeted. "For our safety and for our child's safety, we deleted all Mini AOC accounts."

Death threats for a fun loving 8 year old?

[Doc]

But Baby Trump balloons are fine.

I am sure AOC felt threatened at the boarder by the agents (heavy sarcasm). Funny that nobody has backed up her story or expressed similar concerns

[Catonahottinroof]

Whoever doxxed her and her parents in the process should be subject to prosecution.....

[CitizenBBN]

Going to start eating their own. Now inferring Pelosi's shots at the young radicals are racist in nature.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-pelosi-singling-out-women-color

[CitizenBBN]

Whoever doxxed her and her parents in the process should be subject to prosecution.....

AFAIK AOC has yet to condemn the threats. She may have, but hadn't as of a day or two ago.

[Catonahottinroof]

Now we will see how consistent the judiciary is.....
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/10/nyregion/aoc-twitter-lawsuit-trump.html

[Doc]

Going to start eating their own. Now inferring Pelosi's shots at the young radicals are racist in nature.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ocasio-cortez-pelosi-singling-out-women-color

Classic liberal approach...agree with me or you are a racist

[Doc]

Now we will see how consistent the judiciary is.....
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/10/nyregion/aoc-twitter-lawsuit-trump.html

I never saw this coming...dws.

[CitizenBBN]

I just can't process this level of irony. I love irony, but this is coma level irony:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/democrat-blasts-ocasio-cortez-pelosi

Rep. William Lacy Clay, D-Mo., (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dem-rep-paid-sisters-law-firm-80000-from-campaign-funds-this-year) added to the mounting Democratic (https://www.foxnews.com/category/politics/elections/democrats) criticism of Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., (https://www.foxnews.com/category/person/alexandria-ocasio-cortez) reportedly calling her, her chief of staff, and the group Justice Democrats "juvenile."

"Their ignorance is beyond belief," Clay, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus, reportedly said while in the Speaker's Lobby.

His comments followed a feud between House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., (https://www.foxnews.com/category/person/nancy-pelosi) and freshman congresswomen, like Ocasio-Cortez, that involved racially-charged criticism.


Clay reportedly addressed the racial undertones of the criticisms coming from Ocasio-Cortez's office, saying it was "unbelievable" it would bring up that issue.


“What a weak argument, because you can’t get your way and because you’re getting pushback you resort to using the race card? Unbelievable. That’s unbelievable to me,” Clay reportedly said on Thursday.
(https://thehill.com/homenews/house/452671-democratic-lawmaker-unloads-on-ocasio-cortez-chief-of-staff-for-using-the-race#.XSeT6xFobms.twitter)

[Catonahottinroof]

I’ll just leave this right here....


https://youtu.be/ZEFoi_leYDw

[CitizenBBN]

I’ll just leave this right here....


https://youtu.be/ZEFoi_leYDw

I'll have to watch that in sections. It's actually painful to watch how dumb she is, and how uneducated, to be a US Congressman.

[suncat05]

She might be dumb. She might be smart. But she definitely is a good little Commie.

[UKHistory]

She is also an American. I don’t agree with her. I am not a fan. But she is an American and a human being.

Trump is the single worst defender of Christianity, family values, love of country and the American way of life I have ever seen.

Telling AOC and the other women to leave the country is lacking all class.

I dont agree with them. I don’t particularly like them. But to be told by the president to leave the US and go back where you came from.

Wow.

[kingcat]

She is also an American. I don’t agree with her. I am not a fan. But she is an American and a human being.

Trump is the single worst defender of Christianity, family values, love of country and the American way of life I have ever seen.

Telling AOC and the other women to leave the country is lacking all class.

I dont agree with them. I don’t particularly like them. But to be told by the president to leave the US and go back where you came from.

Wow.

Never thought I would see the day things like this could be overlooked and even defended. As he has made claim, there is no limit to what he can do or say...none.

[Doc]

I never thought I would see the day when the duly elected president was refered to as a mother ####### while the audience applauded, called a traitor by congressmen/women, and millions of dollars of federal money along with 2 plus years was dedicated to overthrowing him. I can imagine he is tired of their bullshit

[suncat05]

I haven't changed my mind. She's still a COMMUNIST. Period. Although most people today tend to avoid using that name due to "political correctness", I am a firm believer that you call it what it really is. She might pretend to be or masquerade as a "socialist", but in the end, everything she espouses comes straight from the Marxist/Leninist playbook.
She's a COMMUNIST. Period.

[Doc]

Never thought I would see the day things like this could be overlooked and even defended. As he has made claim, there is no limit to what he can do or say...none.

Why? You overlook the disrespect slung at him for years. He told them to love it leave it. Boo hoo. He should have called them traitorists, MFing, racist, illegitmate office holders because all those are fine when used by "the squad" (I am a big fan of cheesy nicknames--dws) and other liberals like Nadler, Schumer, Pelosi, etc. and fired towards the "occupant of the White House". I would take the criticism seriously if the same standard was applied to all. You expect the President to be this kind gentler guy while he is constantly belittle, berated and attacked? He is the one "caging children" because he is enforcing the laws congress made? He is the one under CONSTANT attack from liberals but have him tweet something minuscule compared to what is hurled his way and it is now something you never thought you would see the day? That day came along time ago when the morons In MI felt it appropriate to elect somebody who would call the President, or any elect official a MFer. That day happens when the people elected a Jew hating, ISIS supporter to congress. So lets stop the faux rage about how evil Trump is because while his level of civility is less than I would like, it pales when compared to what he has been called and subjected to

[Doc]

She is also an American. I don’t agree with her. I am not a fan. But she is an American and a human being.

Trump is the single worst defender of Christianity, family values, love of country and the American way of life I have ever seen.

Telling AOC and the other women to leave the country is lacking all class.

I dont agree with them. I don’t particularly like them. But to be told by the president to leave the US and go back where you came from.

Wow.

And so is Trump. He is not a Russian plant or operative despite what the media and liberal shout 24/7/365. See its OK to call Trump a traitor or unAmerican but dare him to do it to somebody who does nothing but attack him and call him Putin's puppet and suddenly its an issue. Trump is LITERALLY being called not just not an American but a traitor to this country.

I would also take exception to family values, love of country and the American way of life statement. I don't think post birth abortion is "family values"--something the left advocates. Nor do I believe that it is a particularly Christian belief. He constantly defends Love of Country. In fact that was the entire point of the most recent tweet. Same with his stance on respecting the flag/non kneeling. As for American way of life... not sure where socialism fits in the American way of life scheme. For me, the American way of life is I am responsible for myself and my family. That isn't the governments job.

[kingcat]

Because the president, when elected, is elected to represent us all, not to disrespect a majority of people, which over time he has clearly and willfully done. If you refuse to see the difference and divert the discussion so no defense of the presidents actions are needed, the discussion is moot
Do all Republican senators and representatives represent your views, and do you respect the views and ethics of them all?

The disrespect shown here for the former president far, far exceeds anything said about the current one on this site. I don’t answer for other mediums.

And I did not attack your opinion. Either you support what he says and does or you don’t.

You make yourself perfectly clear as do I.

[suncat05]

And I concur with Doc's last assertion 100%.
Trump is NOT the demon many of the leftists try to make him out to be. And, if I'm reading the signs correctly, many of the leftists in love with Obama are fixing to find out just what a bad guy he really is. So, stand by to stand by, because a lot of people are getting ready to be severely butthurt after the Barr & Horowitz investigations are concluded.

[Doc]

Because the president is elected to represent us all, not to disrespect a majority of people. If you refuse to see the difference and divert the discussion so no defense of the presidents actions are needed, the discussion is moot
Do all Republican senators and representatives represent your views, and do you respect the views and ethics of them all?

The disrespect shown here for the former president far, far exceeds anything said about the current one on this site. I don’t answer for other mediums.

And I did not attack your opinion. Either you support what he says and does or you don’t. You make yourself perfectly clear as do I.

Sorry, but not even close how Obama was treated (and I do see the disclaimer "ON THIS SITE"...that is a cop out IMO. Go to a liberal leaning site and see who was treated disrespectfully. I make no bones that the posters here are more conservative/liberitarian, thus are going to have a slant that direction. Still, I don't think "disrespectfully" is how Obama was treated here). Obama was never called a MFer, nor did elected congress people spend 2 1/2 years trying to throw him out of office. He wasn't ROUTINELY called a traitor, rapist, misogynist, Nazi, white supremacist or any of dozens of things Trump has been called.

Getting back to the American Way of Life comment. I always pictured the American way of life to be something where we respect the results of an election. If you don't like the results...tough. If you don't like them then vote in 2 or 4 years. To me, that concept is unequivocally American. Instead we have a left who is hell bent on overturning an election simply because they lost. I didn't like the results in 2008 or 2012, but you didn't see me or most republicans acting like a bunch of jackasses. So please don't tell that it is Trump that is threatening the American system when a large segment of the democratic party is using every measure to reverse the choice of the people per our Constitution. That is where your threat to the American way is.

I also believe the American way is for citizens and citizen alone to vote and elect our representatives, not illegal immigrants. Failure to do so is a far greater threat to the American system than any tweet that Tumps makes.

I always pictured the American way of life as following the laws of the land...ALL the laws of the land. And if you don't like the laws then they need to be changed. Not the selective enforcement we saw in the past. Yet Trump enforcing the laws implemented by Congress somehow threatens the American system?

Likewise, if Trump publicly (or privately) came out and told people how to avoid the law....something democrats do in Sanctuary Cities as well as how to evade arrest in the round up of people who have been told by Judges that they need to leave this country, he would be charge with and guilty of OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE. Yet for the left, this practice is not an issue. So much for the American way of life, unless we believe in one set of rules for some and other for others?

To me, using the IRS against conservatives was far worse than anything Trump ever did or tweeted. Using a gov't agency against the people based on political affiliation is certainly not the American way of life IMO. But then that is just me.

I know many people who claimed Obama would be the end of democracy. I knew that was folly, and those who stated so were over-reactionaries. No different under Trump. Those who don't agree will cry "end of this nation" with the same tone and vigor. Somehow we survived Obama, and will somehow survive Trump.

[kingcat]

In short, I take it that means you at least sympathize if not agree with the President’s tweet.
It is a simple, strait forward discussion of a simple to understand statement by the president.

Imo, you defend the indefensible. And I don’t mean to offend you.

[KeithKSR]

In short, I take it that means you at least sympathize if not agree with the President’s tweet.
It is a simple, strait forward discussion of a simple to understand statement by the president.

Imo, you defend the indefensible. And I don’t mean to offend you.

Telling someone that if they don’t like it here to go somewhere else isn’t racists, nor is it that big a deal.

What I find more disturbing is someone being given an opportunity to denounce al Qaida and declining to do so.

[kingcat]

Telling someone that if they don’t like it here to go somewhere else isn’t racists, nor is it that big a deal.

What I find more disturbing is someone being given an opportunity to denounce al Qaida and declining to do so.

I believe you are in a huge minority. Joined by those who don’t care if it is racist or not, and those who are racist themselves, and many who would defend the president no matter what he may do or say.

There’s not much more to be said from my perspective.

[Doc]

In short, I take it that means you at least sympathize if not agree with the President’s tweet.
It is a simple, strait forward discussion of a simple to understand statement by the president.

Imo, you defend the indefensible. And I don’t mean to offend you.

No offense taken..

In short, I am tired of ONE STANDARD being applied to the President and another to those in Congress. The same standard should be applied to both. If Trump called Talib a MFer, I would not be fine with that. If Trump made truly anti-Semitic remarks (not frabricated ones), I would not be fine with that. If Trump told individuals who were in violation of the law how to evade capture, I would not be fine with that.

Personally his statement does not bother me one bit. I don't have an opinion on whether or not I agree with it. My view is tainted by disgust for the manner in which the squad ( :671: I prefer the "moronic 4") antagonize then play the victim. Spend 2 years calling him every name in the book then cry like little ####### when he comes back at you. BOO HOO.

[Doc]

I believe you are in a huge minority. Joined by those who don’t care if it is racist or not, and those who are racist themselves, and many who would defend the president no matter what he may do or say.

There’s not much more to be said from my perspective.

I don't believe he is in the minority at all. Personally I don't believe Trump is a racist. I believe he has been called it but have yet to see a single bit of evidence to support it. Because when you disagree, the easiest thing to do is call the other side "racist". Hell, even the democrats are doing that to within their party.

[suncat05]

In short, I take it that means you at least sympathize if not agree with the President’s tweet.
It is a simple, strait forward discussion of a simple to understand statement by the president.

Imo, you defend the indefensible. And I don’t mean to offend you.

Sorry kingcat, but what President Trump said is no different than what the conservatives in the '60's said to the Vietnam war protesters back in those days.
Very little difference, as a matter of fact. And just as it was back then, it doesn't matter "who" says it, because to be able to say it in dissent is an American citizen's Constitutional right. So, in this regard, I have to respectfully disagree with you.
Hey, I am not a fan of the current President, as an individual. I don't agree with some things that he says or does, but I do agree with him on this, although I really believe he shouldn't say stuff like that out loud. And he has done a much, much better job up to this point than the previous resident of the White House did in his eight years of residing there. JMHO.

[kingcat]

There’s a huge difference. Elect an Indian or a person of color and let him as representing the American people tell a group of Caucasian’s to go back to their witch hanging plague filled European countries, and see how that flies . Then add to that scenario a history of us being owned like livestock by the very ethnicity of that leader sho spake such a thing.

But I will also point out that I never mentioned the tweets as racist yet that is where the defense of the President started in our conversations. There are many points between outright racism and sound leadership that demand a reprimand by God fearing men and women
Yet there is no line apparently that this man can’t cross with his followers. He has even said as much.

And I don’t count everyone who takes an opposite view as a “follower”. But there are many that fall into that category if one will look closely and fairly at the situation. I have friend who is now a faithful Q follower and the size and depravity of that group is overwhelming. Last week he informed that it had been proven there was a giant Q at the end of every rainbow but the Queen and the Obamas were forcing the proof withheld from the population
Before anyone laughs at that, take a look the number of followers who believe in that cause and that the Jews are the enemy of all society. And that the alien from the future was here to assure Trump gets to the bottom of the shadow government.

It is Supreme Idiocy with the support of the White House. And it is being perpetrated on many levels

[CitizenBBN]

Because the president, when elected, is elected to represent us all, not to disrespect a majority of people, which over time he has clearly and willfully done.

"You didn't build that" was beyond disrespectful to me and those who work to build their own businesses, but I don't recall people being too upset about it when it didn't call them out.

As for this notion the President should "represent us all", who was it that, when faced with that claim said "elections have consequences" in his dismissal of the opposing viewpoint?

it was OK when that President was implementing an agenda that disrespected a lot of Americans, but now it's not OK when that goes the other way?

[CitizenBBN]

In short, I take it that means you at least sympathize if not agree with the President’s tweet.
It is a simple, strait forward discussion of a simple to understand statement by the president.

Imo, you defend the indefensible. And I don’t mean to offend you.

Do you know what he actually tweeted?

here's the relevant part:


"Why don't they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how it is done. These places need your help badly, you can't leave fast enough."


And there's more. It was a pretty long statement really.

Is that "simple"? To me it's pointing out that their corrupt, socialist/communist ideology has failed everywhere else and their attempt to drag out country down to their level should be rejected.

It was a dumb way to put it IMO, but that's not exactly surprising for Trump. He tweets lots of absurd, over the top stuff. He loves trolling. I think it's a mistake, but he loves it and it clearly won't stop.

"America Love it or Leave it" is a decades long saying that has been used by a TON of politicians and others, and they weren't considered racists for it. Now it's apparently racist, along with wanting an actual immigration law of some kind.

Trump can be a complete ass, but as Doc said it's OK for senior politicians to call him a Traitor, a Russian spy, a Nazi, etc. but suddenly his comments are over the top and out of line?

Sorry, but in this mud slinging fest Trump has gotten more than he's dished out. I'm tired of the mud, but let's not pretend he's not got it slung at him by the truckload on a daily basis, and things just as negative as his tweet.

Yes AOC is an American. So is Trump, yet you and others even on here have said as much that he's not, that he's a Russian spy and a traitor, right? So your calling a fellow American a Traitor without any proof whatsoever is OK, but telling AOC to leave and go fix some other country and then come back is worse? Or is it just b/c he's President and he can't behave like AOC and Omar have towards him?

I won't defend his over the top behavior, never have and won't now. It's absurd and boorish and childish. But it's unfair to act like he's crossed some new line here that wasn't crossed long ago in the attacks and accusations and false claims leveled at him by so many. We spent two years checking out many of those claims and they turned out to be completely false, yet they are still made against him without apology.

It's ugly right now, but neither side is backing down. And as long as we have sitting Congressmen proposing laws that will set up a federal agency to approve our private travel plans I guarantee you it's going to get even more ugly b/c now we're fighting for the soul of this country.

[Doc]

"You didn't build that" was beyond disrespectful to me and those who work to build their own businesses, but I don't recall people being too upset about it when it didn't call them out.

As for this notion the President should "represent us all", who was it that, when faced with that claim said "elections have consequences" in his dismissal of the opposing viewpoint?

it was OK when that President was implementing an agenda that disrespected a lot of Americans, but now it's not OK when that goes the other way?

Not only that but why is it that the elected President has one level that he must stay on but congress(wo)men have a different one? its OK for elected officials to call the president illegitimate, racist, nazi, etc.... but the President saying "love it or leave it" is somehow not representing the people? Folks can claim I'm a Trump supporter all they want. Like the chant of "racism", saying it does not make it so. There are a multitude of things about Trump I don't like. I feel comfortable saying you are the same. One thing you won't see me doing is teaching my kids to chant or sing the praises of Trump....unlike the democrats did with Obama. Kingcat is right, there is a difference. Only problem is the difference is one was called (and treated like) a messiah and one is called a Nazi.

[Doc]

and as long as we are being 100% accurate...Trump NEVER told them to go back to their countries. Sure the reference, and inference was there but he didn't say "Go back to Somilia, or Peurto Rico, etc..." He said ""Why don't they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how it is done. These places need your help badly, you can't leave fast enough." You ever been to the Bronx? You ever been to Detroit? Broken and crime infested certainly describes both.

[Doc]

Here is the entire tweet...cut and pasted




....and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how....
32,006 replies 38,331 retweets 180,693 likes


Nope, no go back to your country. GO BACK TO YOUR PLACES FROM WHICH YOU CAME.

See, words, like black lives and election consequences, do matter.

[kingcat]

Does anyone honestly believe Trump meant go back to their district or what have you? Even our excellent lawyer friends here wouldn't dare attempt to twist his meaning that much. :trink39:

[Doc]

Does anyone honestly believe Trump meant go back to their district or what have you? Even our excellent lawyer friends here wouldn't dare attempt to twist his meaning that much. :trink39:

I don't know what he meant, but I do know what he tweeted. I leave it to liberals to determine how to define what he meant so it will be as racist as possible, so it fits their "impeach Trump" agenda. I do also know that he said for them to come back and show us how its done. So contrary to how it is portrayed, he did not even say "love it or leave it". He did not say get out of WHITE AMERICA or anything along those lines. I guess when it comes to accusing somebody of being a racist, I tend to error on the side of caution. Racism is not the first thing I think of when somebody disagrees with me, and before I label somebody with such a vile and disgusting adjective I want to be 100% certain.

See for me, that is the problem with defining everything with the race card. It eventually looses its effectiveness.

[dan_bgblue]

GO BACK TO YOUR PLACES FROM WHICH YOU CAME. `

Thanks for beating me to that. I parse things out by the exact words used in my daily personal life, business life, and my fun time life here. I see what was said and go from there. I do not think I am wise enough to see into the mind of another and know what they meant because they left out a word or two that I thank they would have said if they had thought to do so.


Does anyone honestly believe Trump meant go back to their district or what have you? Even our excellent lawyer friends here wouldn't dare attempt to twist his meaning that much.

As you know I am not a lawyer and sometimes take issue with the way they think but still value their input and consider them friends.

If they want to read his exact words and put their own spin on them then that is fine by me, but honest to God, my first thought when I read the words was he was telling them to leave Washington and go back to New York, Minneapolis, and wherever the other two are from and fix the mess they left behind, and once they got that taken care of to come back to DC and return to being a part of the US congress. Nothing more and nothing less. I guess that I could have looked at the 4 of them and immediately assumed it was a sexist comment, but I did not so shame on me.

[kingcat]

The president followed that tweet with other statements clarifying what he meant. I just heard him five minutes ago discussing it with reporters and he stated he meant if they don't love this country go back to the one they came from.

[kingcat]

The president followed that tweet with other statements clarifying what he meant. I just heard him five minutes ago discussing it with reporters and he stated he meant if they don't love this country go back to the one they came from, or just leave it.
That's pretty clear. as to what locations he was suggesting.

It seems everyone is pretty entrenched in their support for his tweet here.
I don't, and I agreed with our friend History's opinion.

[UKHistory]

The love it or leave it mantra, which I get and get strongly about say the US flag of the revolutionary war era, is an honest reaction

Not normally a way to learn, grow or compromise.

Telling people to leave the US and go back to where they came from is wrong when said to Americans. And if you aren’t saying it to Americans of Irish or Italian descent and just non white is racist.

I don’t agree with the squad much. Don’t like them. But all are Americans. Three of them were born here. The other came here as a child.

If trump had just said love it or leave it-ignoring his American Carnage speech that was the most depressing inauguration speech I can recall-fine. It is not productive and demands unquestioning blind loyalty to authority which by its nature is as American vodka and black bread.

Trump specifically urged them to go back to wheee they came from and improve those countries. That is bullshit.

I don’t think the squad has good ideas or the experience to get things done In Congress.

But they are Americans. Criticize their ideas. But threatening photoshopped porn and telling them to leave the country is bush league.

Also some folks say trump is being held to a double standard. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Obama said stupid things. Insulting things. Hell he insulted UK in 2012 and 2013 during the NCAA champ WH meetings

Just because Harry Reid was a dick or Nancy Pelosi has been awful, that doesn’t mean trump can behave as badly.

Hell he should and they all should try to put the country over cheap shots and personal wealth.

But the president of the US, the commander our armed forces should be held to a higher standard than a Congresswoman.

I can’t show respect to a man that wipes his ass with the Constitution and the Bible on a daily basis.

There is not a lot to say good about the squad but even less about Trump.

[Catonahottinroof]

It works both ways....... and I sense a Trump is playing Congressional Dems like a fiddle because he is making these 4 congresswoman the face of the party he is running against. The bad part is it is being bought hook, line and sinker by the left.
The love it or leave it mantra, which I get and get strongly about say the US flag of the revolutionary war era, is an honest reaction

Not normally a way to learn, grow or compromise.

Telling people to leave the US and go back to where they came from is wrong when said to Americans. And if you aren’t saying it to Americans of Irish or Italian descent and just non white is racist.

I don’t agree with the squad much. Don’t like them. But all are Americans. Three of them were born here. The other came here as a child.

If trump had just said love it or leave it-ignoring his American Carnage speech that was the most depressing inauguration speech I can recall-fine. It is not productive and demands unquestioning blind loyalty to authority which by its nature is as American vodka and black bread.

Trump specifically urged them to go back to wheee they came from and improve those countries. That is bullshit.

I don’t think the squad has good ideas or the experience to get things done In Congress.

But they are Americans. Criticize their ideas. But threatening photoshopped porn and telling them to leave the country is bush league.

Also some folks say trump is being held to a double standard. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Obama said stupid things. Insulting things. Hell he insulted UK in 2012 and 2013 during the NCAA champ WH meetings

Just because Harry Reid was a dick or Nancy Pelosi has been awful, that doesn’t mean trump can behave as badly.

Hell he should and they all should try to put the country over cheap shots and personal wealth.

But the president of the US, the commander our armed forces should be held to a higher standard than a Congresswoman.

I can’t show respect to a man that wipes his ass with the Constitution and the Bible on a daily basis.

There is not a lot to say good about the squad but even less about Trump.

[CitizenBBN]

The love it or leave it mantra, which I get and get strongly about say the US flag of the revolutionary war era, is an honest reaction

Not normally a way to learn, grow or compromise.

Telling people to leave the US and go back to where they came from is wrong when said to Americans.

At some level I agree with you, but at another I don't. Two parts (if you'll bear with me).

Part 1: Love it or leave it.

OK, that shouldn't apply to honest differences of opinion, but what if the person in question wants to fundamentally change the Great Experiment, and wants to remove individual liberty as the primary goal of this nation?

AOC has suggested we create a federal agency that will OK our private travel plans, regulate what we eat, etc. It's fundamentally anti-American. it wants to do away with individual liberty and the Constitution that protects it.

Should we compromise with that? How about we leave America as the one nation founded for the pursuit of life, liberty and property and if you can't accept that basic goal you go to ANY other place on the planet, b/c every other place on Earth does not see it that way so you have a ton of options.

I don't see that as an unfair position. Why should we eliminate the one place on Earth that is resreved for those who value their liberty more than their safety?


Part 2: Wrong when said to Americans


Is it wrong to accuse an American of being a Russian agent with no evidence whatsoever? To believe it in your heart as true despite no first hand knowledge and nothing more than innuendo and rumor?

That seems about as wrong as telling an American to pack a bag and get out to me.

What about accusing an American of being a Nazi? Of being as bad or worse than Hitler, a man who led to the deaths of tens of millions? Should an American endure those things?

I see a gaping double standard here. AOC can't be subjected to being told to pack up and get out if she wants to turn us into Venezuela, but Trump can be PRESUMED to be a traitor and a Hitler wannabe and that's not even worth a footnote.

So a duly elected President of the United States can be called illegitimate despite 60 million Americans voting for him, be accused of being a traitor with no proof, and compared to one of the most evil men in all human history, but let a few liberals be told to pack a bag and all hell breaks loose.

HUGE double standard guys. HUGE. Unreal in fact.

[CitizenBBN]

It works both ways....... and I sense a Trump is playing Congressional Dems like a fiddle because he is making these 4 congresswoman the face of the party he is running against. The bad part is it is being bought hook, line and sinker by the left.

IMO that's exactly what he's doing.

In his view the Pelosi/AOC feud is actually bad for him b/c Dems in swing areas can point to it and say "we're lot like AOC, we're standing up to her" etc.

By doing what he did now they're all in lock step again and those 4 are being featured, not Pelosi.

Will it work? I don't know, but I think Trump trolled them very intentionally in the middle of their feud and did it b/c he thinks it helps him for them to not feud but to keep painting the Squad as the face of the Democratic party.

I KNOW them being the face of the party helps him and the GOP, the question is if this helps accomplish making them the face of it.

[Catonahottinroof]

You can only yell racist, nazi, Russian spy so many times and when it continues to come up empty that it loses its effect. Especially when legit racism pops up, it likely won’t get the response it deserves to get by the stupidity going on in the political environment. I’m no supporter of his by any means, but the standard is very double, if not worse for every action he takes in the press and by the regressive left. They end up proving his points by their stupid responses.
The left has become mindnumb to their language and their actions in combatting what Trump does, and says. He will continue to bait them because they ALWAYS bite on the bait. Quit it...let his words ring without a response and then he really, really looks stupid for saying it...
At some level I agree with you, but at another I don't. Two parts (if you'll bear with me).

Part 1: Love it or leave it.

OK, that shouldn't apply to honest differences of opinion, but what if the person in question wants to fundamentally change the Great Experiment, and wants to remove individual liberty as the primary goal of this nation?

AOC has suggested we create a federal agency that will OK our private travel plans, regulate what we eat, etc. It's fundamentally anti-American. it wants to do away with individual liberty and the Constitution that protects it.

Should we compromise with that? How about we leave America as the one nation founded for the pursuit of life, liberty and property and if you can't accept that basic goal you go to ANY other place on the planet, b/c every other place on Earth does not see it that way so you have a ton of options.

I don't see that as an unfair position. Why should we eliminate the one place on Earth that is resreved for those who value their liberty more than their safety?


Part 2: Wrong when said to Americans


Is it wrong to accuse an American of being a Russian agent with no evidence whatsoever? To believe it in your heart as true despite no first hand knowledge and nothing more than innuendo and rumor?

That seems about as wrong as telling an American to pack a bag and get out to me.

What about accusing an American of being a Nazi? Of being as bad or worse than Hitler, a man who led to the deaths of tens of millions? Should an American endure those things?

I see a gaping double standard here. AOC can't be subjected to being told to pack up and get out if she wants to turn us into Venezuela, but Trump can be PRESUMED to be a traitor and a Hitler wannabe and that's not even worth a footnote.

So a duly elected President of the United States can be called illegitimate despite 60 million Americans voting for him, be accused of being a traitor with no proof, and compared to one of the most evil men in all human history, but let a few liberals be told to pack a bag and all hell breaks loose.

HUGE double standard guys. HUGE. Unreal in fact.

[Doc]

You can only yell racist, nazi, Russian spy so many times and when it continues to come up empty that it loses its effect. Especially when legit racism pops up, it likely won’t get the response it deserves to get by the stupidity going on in the political environment. I’m no supporter of his by any means, but the standard is very double, if not worse for every action he takes in the press and by the regressive left. They end up proving his points by their stupid responses.
The left has become mindnumb to their language and their actions in combatting what Trump does, and says. He will continue to bait them because they ALWAYS bite on the bait. Quit it...let his words ring without a response and then he really, really looks stupid for saying it...

One of my beefs concerning double standard is the Obstruction of Justice that the left is now hanging their hat on. They see attempting to defend yourself as obstruction. Trump won't release taxes? Obstruction of Justice. Won't release his private info? Obstruction of Justice. CONSIDERS removing Meuller ( but does not)? Obstruction of Justice. Yet mayors forewarn crimminals of impending ICE arrest so they can elude arrest is the moral thing to do. Smash a blackbeery and delete e-mails...old news

Call the president,who is also an Ameeican citizen, a traitor, a Nazi, a white supremist and a Russian operative and its fine but tell those folks who are doing it to go backnwhere you came from draws congressional sancture...because they are Americans

[Catonahottinroof]

Like I said, their response points out the double standard and the toxic state that exits in political speak these days.
Pie in the sky is hoping the entire Congress is swept out on its ass to begin anew. It won’t happen, but it needs to.....

One of my beefs concerning double standard is the Obstruction of Justice that the left is now hanging their hat on. They see attempting to defend yourself as obstruction. Trump won't release taxes? Obstruction of Justice. Won't release his private info? Obstruction of Justice. CONSIDERS removing Meuller ( but does not)? Obstruction of Justice. Yet mayors forewarn crimminals of impending ICE arrest so they can elude arrest is the moral thing to do. Smash a blackbeery and delete e-mails...old news

Call the president,who is also an Ameeican citizen, a traitor, a Nazi, a white supremist and a Russian operative and its fine but tell those folks who are doing it to go backnwhere you came from draws congressional sancture...because they are Americans

[suncat05]

Like I said, their response points out the double standard and the toxic state that exits in political speak these days.
Pie in the sky is hoping the entire Congress is swept out on its ass to begin anew. It won’t happen, but it needs to.....

If we could get 34 states to convene an Article V Convention of the States, and not have ANY POLITICIANS involved to foul up the process, that would be a very good place to begin to fix this mess.
Unfortunately, to get to that place the crooked & corrupt politicians are in the right-of-way, so arriving at that place, which the Founding Fathers saw fit to place in the Constitution for just such a time as this, is going to be very, very difficult.
There is another way to make BOTH SIDES come back to the mainstream middle, but I can't say THAT out loud and in public.
Because the extremists on both sides are completely out of control and are moving our Republic towards eventual destruction. And then, where will our world be? It definitely would not be a better place.

[KSRBEvans]

I just can't process this level of irony. I love irony, but this is coma level irony:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/democrat-blasts-ocasio-cortez-pelosi

Rep. William Lacy Clay, D-Mo., (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dem-rep-paid-sisters-law-firm-80000-from-campaign-funds-this-year) added to the mounting Democratic (https://www.foxnews.com/category/politics/elections/democrats) criticism of Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., (https://www.foxnews.com/category/person/alexandria-ocasio-cortez) reportedly calling her, her chief of staff, and the group Justice Democrats "juvenile."

"Their ignorance is beyond belief," Clay, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus, reportedly said while in the Speaker's Lobby.

His comments followed a feud between House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., (https://www.foxnews.com/category/person/nancy-pelosi) and freshman congresswomen, like Ocasio-Cortez, that involved racially-charged criticism.


Clay reportedly addressed the racial undertones of the criticisms coming from Ocasio-Cortez's office, saying it was "unbelievable" it would bring up that issue.


“What a weak argument, because you can’t get your way and because you’re getting pushback you resort to using the race card? Unbelievable. That’s unbelievable to me,” Clay reportedly said on Thursday.
(https://thehill.com/homenews/house/452671-democratic-lawmaker-unloads-on-ocasio-cortez-chief-of-staff-for-using-the-race#.XSeT6xFobms.twitter)

I was listening to a podcast (https://twitter.com/JonahNRO/status/1151460253327867904) this morning and the guest, A.B. Stoddard, said she'd heard a Congressman say you can be a workhorse or you can be a Congressional Kardashian. I thought that was a really good way of putting it, and it's pretty clear which one AOC is.

[UKHistory]

At some level I agree with you, but at another I don't. Two parts (if you'll bear with me).

Part 1: Love it or leave it.

OK, that shouldn't apply to honest differences of opinion, but what if the person in question wants to fundamentally change the Great Experiment, and wants to remove individual liberty as the primary goal of this nation?

AOC has suggested we create a federal agency that will OK our private travel plans, regulate what we eat, etc. It's fundamentally anti-American. it wants to do away with individual liberty and the Constitution that protects it.

Should we compromise with that? How about we leave America as the one nation founded for the pursuit of life, liberty and property and if you can't accept that basic goal you go to ANY other place on the planet, b/c every other place on Earth does not see it that way so you have a ton of options.

I don't see that as an unfair position. Why should we eliminate the one place on Earth that is resreved for those who value their liberty more than their safety?


Part 2: Wrong when said to Americans


Is it wrong to accuse an American of being a Russian agent with no evidence whatsoever? To believe it in your heart as true despite no first hand knowledge and nothing more than innuendo and rumor?

That seems about as wrong as telling an American to pack a bag and get out to me.

What about accusing an American of being a Nazi? Of being as bad or worse than Hitler, a man who led to the deaths of tens of millions? Should an American endure those things?

I see a gaping double standard here. AOC can't be subjected to being told to pack up and get out if she wants to turn us into Venezuela, but Trump can be PRESUMED to be a traitor and a Hitler wannabe and that's not even worth a footnote.

So a duly elected President of the United States can be called illegitimate despite 60 million Americans voting for him, be accused of being a traitor with no proof, and compared to one of the most evil men in all human history, but let a few liberals be told to pack a bag and all hell breaks loose.

HUGE double standard guys. HUGE. Unreal in fact.

Let’s talk. Very thoughtful points.

1) Let’s take AOC and the proposed travel authorization agency. I have not heard that but will accept that it is a logical extension of her policies. My response is to fight them like Hell. Condemn her positions at that point as denying liberty UnConstitutional. And UnConstitutional is UnAmerican in my book

She will play the race card. This week she knows how to distinguish what a racist attack (trump) is over a strong rebuke that isn’t (Pelosi). In my view.

The congresswoman originally from Somalia made the anti Semitic comments about Israel. Criticizing Israel is another set of issues I will discuss when I can type with more than thumbs

With regards to the double standard. The President publicly making a statement is different than me on this platform or in my personal life. I say what I believe but I would be more careful if I had a different job

I can’t and don’t speak this way professionally (Hatch Act. )

That said accusing the president of conspiring or even coordinating with the Russians to win the election is a very serious statement. It is destructive and and about as an offensive thing one could say.

But trumps own words and behavior towards Russia and his treatment of NATO members disturbed me from the moment he spoke.

You can want better relations with Russia. You can be critical of NATO contributions. You can not do that while embracing the Russians and ignoring our own intel assessments that Putin has worked against our elections.

If you do all of those things I will say you are a traitor. If he is just stupid and is actively working against long term US interests I am wrong.

But I do think trump using his bully pulpit (he has the bully part down) to incite racist rebukes of Congress is disgraceful.

Attack their positions. Attack their experience. Attack the way they conduct themselves.

Do not say they should go back where they came from. America is their home. I’d love trump to go back home. Hell isnt accepting returns until the apocalypse.

[Doc]

I was listening to a podcast (https://twitter.com/JonahNRO/status/1151460253327867904) this morning and the guest, A.B. Stoddard, said she'd heard a Congressman say you can be a workhorse or you can be a Congressional Kardashian. I thought that was a really good way of putting it, and it's pretty clear which one AOC is.

Let me guess...she has a giant ass

[Catonahottinroof]

All I can say is your interpretation is askew in my opinion. You’re inferring assumptions that aren’t proven, and never will be other than in your mind. Trump’s race is green IMO. I find it laughable that the left hurls that tag at him. He sees green, money green. He wouldn’t have a Jewish son-in-law if he was truly racist.
His business dealings cross the spectrum of all races, but he is always favorable to the ones that produce “green”.
I seen a funny meme that stated Trump didn’t name anyone in his tweet...and 4 morons spoke up that it was them.
In a nutshell, that is how I see it too and the left always takes the bait.
Let’s talk. Very thoughtful points.

1) Let’s take AOC and the proposed travel authorization agency. I have not heard that but will accept that it is a logical extension of her policies. My response is to fight them like Hell. Condemn her positions at that point as denying liberty UnConstitutional. And UnConstitutional is UnAmerican in my book

She will play the race card. This week she knows how to distinguish what a racist attack (trump) is over a strong rebuke that isn’t (Pelosi). In my view.

The congresswoman originally from Somalia made the anti Semitic comments about Israel. Criticizing Israel is another set of issues I will discuss when I can type with more than thumbs

With regards to the double standard. The President publicly making a statement is different than me on this platform or in my personal life. I say what I believe but I would be more careful if I had a different job

I can’t and don’t speak this way professionally (Hatch Act. )

That said accusing the president of conspiring or even coordinating with the Russians to win the election is a very serious statement. It is destructive and and about as an offensive thing one could say.

But trumps own words and behavior towards Russia and his treatment of NATO members disturbed me from the moment he spoke.

You can want better relations with Russia. You can be critical of NATO contributions. You can not do that while embracing the Russians and ignoring our own intel assessments that Putin has worked against our elections.

If you do all of those things I will say you are a traitor. If he is just stupid and is actively working against long term US interests I am wrong.

But I do think trump using his bully pulpit (he has the bully part down) to incite racist rebukes of Congress is disgraceful.

Attack their positions. Attack their experience. Attack the way they conduct themselves.

Do not say they should go back where they came from. America is their home. I’d love trump to go back home. Hell isnt accepting returns until the apocalypse.

[kingcat]

We should have a discussion of each page of the Mueller report and the actual findings absent any media slant here.
It would be very enlightening

There were 117 contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian operatives. There was a call by our president for Russia to find and release emails which was done within hours of it.

These and other things are very disturbing and although absent any tangible proof of conspiracy, do point to collusion, which is not a crime.

Obstruction as far as I can tell is a given but can’t be used except in an impeachment hearing

The real double standard seems to be how such a discovery would have been viewed by my friends here were it the former POTUS.
Similar to the outrageous amount of time spent golfing discussed relative to the former administration, which was and is a silly accusation I agree.

It would be worth it to me and I’d agree to comment and add to such a discussion as best I can

[Catonahottinroof]

I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve read a lot of legal opinion about this particular issue when the Mueller report was being dissected by legal minds. Obstruction, while possibly provable with what is given in the report has the legs cut out from under it because there is no original, trial/case provable crime that existed. So then it goes to impeachment which will fall along party lines, and no conviction. I’d like hear some of our legal folks opinion on it to be honest.

Obstruction as far as I can tell is a given but can’t be used except in an impeachment hearing

[kingcat]

I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve read a lot of legal opinion about this particular issue when the Mueller report was being dissected by legal minds. Obstruction, while possibly provable with what is given in the report has the legs cut out from under it because there is no original, trial/case provable crime that existed. So then it goes to impeachment which will fall along party lines, and no conviction. I’d like hear some of our legal folks opinion on it to be honest.

Yeah I’ve heard the same

But I believe the ethical aspect is just as important when talking about his office. It’s nothing to be proud of just to avoid prosecution on a technicality or executive priveledge

[Catonahottinroof]

I suspect if this went to trial, it would come out moreso than it has prior that his campaign was spied upon. Then the previous administration has something to not be proud of on the hands and egg on their faces.
And the ultimate driver in all of this!? Crappy political candidates and crappy political policy.
Yeah I’ve heard the same

But I believe the ethical aspect is just as important when talking about his office. It’s nothing to be proud of just to avoid prosecution on a technicality or executive priveledge

[kingcat]

Whatever truth is, is a good thing regardless. There is no ‘you shouldn’t have found out defense worth a nickel. Now if other shady things come to light that is also a good thing.

It may be none from the POTUS on down are worth a crap or deserving of high office. I get this feeling of hopelessness when I hear the ‘yeah but what about’ defense used by anyone as it relates to my country. In my 70’s vernacular, that’s an age old cop out

[Doc]

I would have no issue with the feds looking into Trump and his connection to Russia IF the same was done to the DNC. IMO, a meeting between Trumps underlings with Russians is far less of a concern to me than paying for and using a Russian created dossier. I fully expect that not everybody holds that same opinion, that believe the DNC did nothing wrong, and Trumps alleged infractions are far more nefarious. But then Hillary did not win the election, and the purpose of the Meuller report was to overturn an election.

Also rest assured that my feelings towards the ethical standards of Trump is no better or worse than the last administration. Eric Holder, BHO, etc were every bit as guilty of "obstruction of justice" when it comes to Fast and Furious as well as the IRS targeting conservatives. They used "executive privilege" and ignored subpoenas in order to prevent the exposure of these potentially illegal programs. And that does not even address the FISA court abuse. I would take the "impeach crowd" more seriously if they showed the same outrage 4 or 5 years ago.

[Catonahottinroof]

Agree, however this is going to become our bad is not as bad as your bad is. To me, this Congress...the entire thing needs to be voted out and all the political power that exists within it.
The 2020 election is going to have to take care of the rest.
Whatever truth is, is a good thing regardless. There is no ‘you shouldn’t have found out defense worth a nickel. Now if other shady things come to light that is also a good thing.

It may be none from the POTUS on down are worth a crap or deserving of high office. I get this feeling of hopelessness when I hear the ‘yeah but what about’ defense used by anyone as it relates to my country. In my 70’s vernacular, that’s an age old cop out

[CitizenBBN]

I would have no issue with the feds looking into Trump and his connection to Russia IF the same was done to the DNC. IMO, a meeting between Trumps underlings with Russians is far less of a concern to me than paying for and using a Russian created dossier. I fully expect that not everybody holds that same opinion, that believe the DNC did nothing wrong, and Trumps alleged infractions are far more nefarious. But then Hillary did not win the election, and the purpose of the Meuller report was to overturn an election.

Also rest assured that my feelings towards the ethical standards of Trump is no better or worse than the last administration. Eric Holder, BHO, etc were every bit as guilty of "obstruction of justice" when it comes to Fast and Furious as well as the IRS targeting conservatives. They used "executive privilege" and ignored subpoenas in order to prevent the exposure of these potentially illegal programs. And that does not even address the FISA court abuse. I would take the "impeach crowd" more seriously if they showed the same outrage 4 or 5 years ago.

Exactly Doc. Exceptionally well said IMO.

Eric Holder has said in public he's "Obama's boy". He's the AG, who was held in contempt for not turning over documents related to a major disaster overseen by DOJ. If Barr came out and said he was "Trump's Boy" would that be OK? Oh no, that's proof of obstruction of justice, when it's Trump.

The law must be applied evenly, or it's not a law. Equality before the law, the rule of law, is essential.

Did Trump's people have contact with Russians? Yes. So did Hillary's, Obama's, Bush's, etc. Investigate it all evenly, fairly, or shut up about it. The truth is there is vastly more foreign influence in Washington than anyone really wants the general public to know, on all sides. I'm against all of it, but I'm against just singling out Trump for it when everyone has done it and acting like he's some kind of exception and that it proves he's a traitor.

The duplicity of this entire couple of years is mind blowing.

[kingcat]

:rolleye0013:
Was Holder also the beneficiary of a firing and subsequent hire at the peak of the investigation of his boss?

Heck, he may have been Im not sure. If so, I'd agree that is pretty shady stuff. :trink39:

But seriously, there is always time to start doing right and expecting better. If a thief gets away with stealing from you, do we stop holding the next robber responsible because your house wasn't the one robbed?

[Catonahottinroof]

Tim is a YouTube journalist. He is not conservative, nor is he regressively liberal. He has the same take as I do. I’m glad to know others out there see the same things I do...

https://youtu.be/Pak8vWbwyJQ

[Doc]

But seriously, there is always time to start doing right and expecting better. If a thief gets away with stealing from you, do we stop holding the next robber responsible because your house wasn't the one robbed?

No but what I don't do is let the first robbery go uninvestigated or unpunished and call the second thief a racist crook. Me, I look for BOTH thiefs, not just the second one

[CitizenBBN]

:rolleye0013:
Was Holder also the beneficiary of a firing and subsequent hire at the peak of the investigation of his boss?

Heck, he may have been Im not sure. If so, I'd agree that is pretty shady stuff. :trink39:

But seriously, there is always time to start doing right and expecting better. If a thief gets away with stealing from you, do we stop holding the next robber responsible because your house wasn't the one robbed?

Your analogy implying we should just NOW, when Trump happens to be in office, enforce the laws of the land we have ignored in the past, is quite a spin on things.

First, in this case Obama didn't have to fire anyone, b/c he put "his boy" in the position without opposition, and it was admitted publicly. Had Sessions stood up and said he was "Trump's Boy" you and others would have lost your minds screaming about the corruption and obstruction.

But second, the more apt analogy is there are two robberies on the same street, one say of a black family, and the other of a rich white family, and only the one of the rich white family gets investigated by the police. It's selective enforcement and it's wrong. Even if the black family was robbed the day prior to the rich white folks. Still wrong.

The left is willing to throw out every foundation principle of our legal system, even the principles of equality before the law and innocence until proven guilty, in order to "get Trump". The ends justifies the means for so many.

Calls to impeach a President b/c he insulted someone? Seriously? Believing he's a Russian agent not b/c he shifts policy (he didn't at all) but b/c he's honest and vocal about things like our allies not holding up their part of treaties?

It's absurd. Obama orders delivery of $4 BILLION in cash to Iran, sets the "reset" button with Putin that brings in hundreds of millions of hard dollars to his regime, and he's not even questioned. Trump calls out our allies who have for decades been lax in their obligations and he's now sent from some plane of Hell to bring down our Constitution. Jeez Louise guys.

[kingcat]

I can easily accept that you believe Obama should be investigated. Which as I understand it Barr can very well do at the request of the president. perhaps there is a reason why that has went nowhere other than the spin right wing media puts on things.

And there was (and is) every reason to investigate Trumps dealings. Many in the republican party supported and still support it. I have accepted that attacks on the former administration, Clintons, or even the Bush years have become the go to defense for Mr Trump.

The fact is, and without wanting to have any hard feelings, there is nothing the President can do or say that would be cause for alarm for the apologetic right wing of conservatives. A constant need to defend something is not always indicative of error on the part of the accuser. It is even more likely to be the willing blind eye of the defender.

And personally I believe firmly history will record this era unfavorably with regard to most Republicans and the Trump presidency.
Yet he has skillfully persuaded many that democracy is the enemy and turned them against the United States as it has existed for the last 100 years.
He has successfully divided the nation from within.
And rehashing the same arguments over and over, or loudly beating the drum of contempt for those Americans you disagree with, wont hide that fact from history. I know my history well enough to see the dangerous parallels which are evident everywhere in the world, as well as to most Americans I believe.
And it goes well beyond politics for me.

Democrats in the center like me (and I am center) are not going to stay silent..., and neither will Republicans of like mind, ..forever in the face of the most hate filled political movement in the history of our country. But I do believe my friends here will begin to see the truth before long.

[kingcat]

I can easily accept that you believe Obama should be investigated. Which as I understand it Barr can very well do at the request of the president. perhaps there is a reason why that has went nowhere other than the spin right wing media puts on things.

And there was (and is) every reason to investigate Trumps dealings. Many in the republican party supported and still support it. I have accepted that attacks on the former administration, Clintons, or even the Bush years have become the go to defense for Mr Trump.

The fact is, and without wanting to have any hard feelings, there is nothing the President can do or say that would be cause for alarm for the apologetic right wing of conservatives. A constant need to defend something is not always indicative of error on the part of the accuser. It is even more likely to be the willing blind eye of the defender.

And personally I believe firmly history will record this era unfavorably with regard to most Republicans and the Trump presidency.
Yet he has skillfully persuaded many that democracy is the enemy and turned them against the United States as it has existed for the last 100 years.
He has successfully divided the nation from within.
And rehashing the same arguments over and over, or loudly beating the drum of contempt for those Americans you disagree with, wont hide that fact from history. I know my history well enough to see the dangerous parallels which are evident everywhere in the world, as well as to most Americans I believe.
And it goes well beyond politics for me.

Democrats in the center like me (and I am center) are not going to stay silent..., and neither will Republicans of like mind, ..forever in the face of the most hate filled political movement in the history of our country. But I do believe my friends here will begin to see the truth before long.

On the other hand I still believe Ocasio-Cortez is both fencepost dumb and nuts.

But an American. Many old soldiers were fencepost dumb and nuts, yet gave their lives for Freedom and the Flag.

[CitizenBBN]

The fact is, and without wanting to have any hard feelings, there is nothing the President can do or say that would be cause for alarm for the apologetic right wing of conservatives. A constant need to defend something is not always indicative of error on the part of the accuser. It is even more likely to be the willing blind eye of the defender.

And personally I believe firmly history will record this era unfavorably with regard to most Republicans and the Trump presidency.
Yet he has skillfully persuaded many that democracy is the enemy and turned them against the United States as it has existed for the last 100 years.
He has successfully divided the nation from within.
And rehashing the same arguments over and over, or loudly beating the drum of contempt for those Americans you disagree with, wont hide that fact from history. I know my history well enough to see the dangerous parallels which are evident everywhere in the world, as well as to most Americans I believe.
And it goes well beyond politics for me.

Democrats in the center like me (and I am center) are not going to stay silent..., and neither will Republicans of like mind, ..forever in the face of the most hate filled political movement in the history of our country. But I do believe my friends here will begin to see the truth before long.

You prove your own point. Just as you say those on the right are locked in their views, you are just as locked into yours.

After 2 years and a massive investigation proving all your fears false re Trump, you still think he's convincing us that "democracy is the enemy" and that he's going to declare himself King or something. With absolutely not one single shred of evidence, despite years in office.

How's that for an entrenched view?

I've got years of his administration now proving he's exactly what I said he was in 2016: a boorish personal ass who will not be any more a danger to the US than any other President.

He's divisive? No, he's only divisive b/c he's on the other side from you. For those of us over on this side Obama was the divisive one, it's just no one noticed b/c conservatives don't control the media.

As for this somehow being the "most hate filled movement in the history of this country", sorry but it's not even close. Where's all this "hate" from Trump? Has he called you "deplorable"? Called you a racist for basic ideological beliefs that have nothing to do with race? Called you a Nazi b/c you want some kind of immigration law at all?

Oh, there's a lot of hate right now in this country, but I'm willing to have a big debate about its source.

And in a way Trump is a threat to democracy, but only b/c it has somehow triggered the Left to abandon basic American principles and traditional liberal views of civil liberties and free speech, using various fascist and McCarthyist techniques to try to silence any opposition.

I can provided dozens of examples of those on the Left trying to shut down free speech, hundreds. How many on the right?

[kingcat]

You prove your own point. Just as you say those on the right are locked in their views, you are just as locked into yours.

After 2 years and a massive investigation proving all your fears false re Trump, you still think he's convincing us that "democracy is the enemy" and that he's going to declare himself King or something. With absolutely not one single shred of evidence, despite years in office.

How's that for an entrenched view?

I've got years of his administration now proving he's exactly what I said he was in 2016: a boorish personal ass who will not be any more a danger to the US than any other President.

He's divisive? No, he's only divisive b/c he's on the other side from you. For those of us over on this side Obama was the divisive one, it's just no one noticed b/c conservatives don't control the media.

As for this somehow being the "most hate filled movement in the history of this country", sorry but it's not even close. Where's all this "hate" from Trump? Has he called you "deplorable"? Called you a racist for basic ideological beliefs that have nothing to do with race? Called you a Nazi b/c you want some kind of immigration law at all?

Oh, there's a lot of hate right now in this country, but I'm willing to have a big debate about its source.

And in a way Trump is a threat to democracy, but only b/c it has somehow triggered the Left to abandon basic American principles and traditional liberal views of civil liberties and free speech, using various fascist and McCarthyist techniques to try to silence any opposition.

I can provided dozens of examples of those on the Left trying to shut down free speech, hundreds. How many on the right?

Talk about entrenched! And in denial at that. :trink39:

Id start with the President of the United States and his followers to include some of craziest right wing fringe conspiracy theorists this country has ever known. Some were at the White House just recently making a mockery of that free speech you mention by the way. From Alex Jones to Gab and QAnon, and the common racist organizations that dont deserve a mention. There are an almost limitless group of anti-American right wing celebrities, dieties, and groups who would at one time not have been tolerated. These groups have been wittingly empowered and equally wish to silence their opponents...and by any means necessary like..driving a car into a crowd of people.

And I am confident if the generation who once defended against such hate and vitriol were still here much right wing and left wing speech would not be tolerated.
Speaking of Germans, many were deceived by a similar nationalist movement, and the subtle move towards white supremacy, a doctrine of hate, and a manipulation of ingrained bias, bigotry, and racism. Instilling fear and distrust of any media which might attempt to explore the dangers of such things with "alternate facts" while cultivating a network of propaganda.

Condemning our courts, electoral process, our longstanding alliances, the media, an entire political base, and any American who might dissent or disagree is cause for alarm. Add to that a large group of people who, absent common sense, dedicate themselves to defending the man using those same tactics and manufactured talking points.

"The far left in this country can be dangerous no doubt, but the equally far right is probably even more so. And many will admit that strait up.

There was a time when no one dared speak the things which have become commonplace. And make no mistake it comes equally from extremes on both sides despite your insistence otherwise. President Trump is your man, whether you believe it or not you have made that abundantly clear.
You are entrenched in your defense of everything he does and attack every opposing view vehemently.

All those fears were not proven false. It was proven that some in the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians, likely to include the President himself, but that collusion was not a crime. (Low down but not criminal, but enough to anger any American who finds it disgusting that the Russians tampered with our elections)

And there was not adequate evidence of conspiracy to bring charges. Kudos Mr. President!

And it was found that the president could not be cleared of obstruction but a sitting president cannot be charged. And that it was left to Congress to decide what to do about it.
...That is easy enough to decipher.

Like I said, on the whole, history will decide. (Not our History)

FWIW, I do agree with you on a lot of points. At least to some extent

[KeithKSR]

All I can say is your interpretation is askew in my opinion. You’re inferring assumptions that aren’t proven, and never will be other than in your mind. Trump’s race is green IMO. I find it laughable that the left hurls that tag at him. He sees green, money green. He wouldn’t have a Jewish son-in-law if he was truly racist.
His business dealings cross the spectrum of all races, but he is always favorable to the ones that produce “green”.
I seen a funny meme that stated Trump didn’t name anyone in his tweet...and 4 morons spoke up that it was them.
In a nutshell, that is how I see it too and the left always takes the bait.

Interviews with black and female cabinet members show that they know the accusations or racism and misogyny to be bunk. Ben Carson said he knows racism from his youth growing up in Detroit, and if Trump was racist he would have resigned his HUD position. Carson went on to list all the things Trump is doing in the traditionally minority areas to boost opportunities and jobs for minorities.

[KeithKSR]

:rolleye0013:
Was Holder also the beneficiary of a firing and subsequent hire at the peak of the investigation of his boss?

Heck, he may have been Im not sure. If so, I'd agree that is pretty shady stuff. :trink39:

But seriously, there is always time to start doing right and expecting better. If a thief gets away with stealing from you, do we stop holding the next robber responsible because your house wasn't the one robbed?


Holder was in his words Obama’s “wing man” and refused to investigate any of the numerous improprieties during his time as AG. In fact Holder was never held to account for his fast and furious gun running scheme.

[kingcat]

Never too late for the acting AG to prosecute him if there is proof of illegal activity. Why wouldn’t they?

They should go all the way back to 2006 and look at its predecessor Operation Wide Receiver.

I have no problem with anyone facing charges for past criminal activity. Wherever the truth leads. But when it isn’t pursued to it’s just conclusion I begin to doubt the veracity of the existing proof before the law. And think perhaps the right ones did suffer the right consequences.

And perhaps the same will be true for this administration in multiple matters

[CitizenBBN]

Yeah, I'm the "entrenched one". lol.

Are there right wing "hate" groups? Sure there are. None of them have much of a voice, certainly no input in mainstream media, and no platform other than a dabbling of websites.

Left wing hate groups get CNN specials and endorsements from universities, senior politicians, Hollywood and the mainstream media on a regular basis.

A left winger tried to kill US congressmen, no real outrage. An Antifa member who just was featured on CNN was killed trying to storm a border detention center, barely a raised eyebrow. Let a right winger attack someone and watch the national media panic.

I'm not "Trump's Guy", I'm simply a conservative Libertarian, and that happens to align with many but certainly not all of Trump's policies.

But I do vehemently attack hypocrisy, double standards, and outright political falsehoods wherever I find them, and I find a TON more of them right now coming from the Left, and it's not even close.

When Bush II and the GOP spent like drunken sailors I attacked them. When the GOP Congress for 2 years refused to do what they promised on health care etc. when they had the chance I attacked them.

of course that included the monumental hypocrite John McCain, who you idolize for some reason, but he's a hypocrite. He voted to repeal Obamacare every time he knew it would never mean anything, then the first time it would mean something he bails. That's just pure politics, not morality. He played to his base as long as it was safe, but then bailed when his vote actually counted.

And I called him out, despite being a Republican and war hero.

I've called out the Reagan era policy of releasing many who were mentally ill back into the streets. Called out Bush I and voted for Perot b/c of the "no new taxes" breach of promise.

No, I step across party lines more than most, and Trump really isn't a Republican, he's a Populist. But Populism in part usually wants to blow up the current political process, and I'm all for that, so yes I love watching him put wrenches into the current political machines. Doesn't mean I even like the guy, I don't, he's an ass, but his being such an ass has exposed the duplicity and hypocrisy and the REAL values of the far left of this country, and that I appreciate.

They don't stand for liberty or civil liberties or equality or anything else they claim. They have disavowed them all in the name of opposing Trump, and shown their true colors. They'd ban speech they don't like given the chance, shut down voices that disagree, intimidate through social pressure or threat of violence, and impose their views of what is best and right on everyone regardless of questions of liberty.

You say the right would do that, but there's no proof. In part b/c the Right isn't in charge. but on college campuses and HOllywood etc. where the Left rules we see it happen every day.

There is real empirical proof for my positions on Trump and where the vitriol and hate is coming from, and basically very little if any for your position. That's just the way it is, b/c Antifa is out there committing violence right now on a regular basis, and the KKK, which consists of "a few thousand" members, doesn't do anything but sit around in trailer parks drinking whiskey and complaining about why their lives suck. They do nothing, have no impact at all.

Think about that now. The KKK, the great evil of the far right, has a few thousand members per groups like SPLC, arranged into some few dozen of groups, and Antifa has somewhere in the 200 range of subgroups and no doubt far more total members.

It's just a myth there is a large white, racist extreme right wing out there. It's in the thousands nationally including all the Klan and skinhead groups and the survivalists. It's tiny, and they have no voice, none.

Antifa and BLM get endorsements and meetings with Presidents and Senators, yet the threat and hate is from the Right? Oh please.

I am entrenched. Entrenched in a fundamental belief that individual liberty is more important than the collective state, and everything I talk about on here flows from that premise. Everything I evaluate in political economy is measured by that standard.

What I see is a Left that is so bold about repressing speech and expression and assembly and basic liberty they are putting forth laws to ban words, ban travel, ban everything they don't like. I have never seen a conservative do so with any actual support, but the Left is now getting a real core of support for doing exactly those things.

Trump will only damage this nation's democracy b/c he's the excuse to abandon our liberties.

These constant comparisons to the Nazis are tiresome at best, intellectually insulting at worst. No camp in the US is "like a concentration camp", Trump is not anything close to Hitler.

But if you really want to draw on the rise of the Third Reich and look for signs, it's probably best to liken Trump to the Communists that Hilter used as the justification for his power grab. Hitler demonized the Jews, the Communists as this unseen, vast threat to Germany, and said he had to be elected, and later given emergency powers, to stop it.

Trump is the Reichstag fire, the rallying point for the real fascists to claim the ends justify the means as they shut down opposition and paint anyone who dares disagree with their agenda as a racist sexist homophobe.

Trump is an ass, but he's not going to seize power or nuke NATO or anything else so outlandish, and now getting on 3 years into it I think my position has held up a lot better than yours on who he is and what he will do as President. Likewise, the response by the Left has also been exactly as expected, using Trump to justify a massive shift to a more extreme platform across the board.

[kingcat]

We think much differently on the matter. Makes life interesting though.


Very strange coincidence today. And it is not being presented as a talking point for us here, just the unusual timing of the matter.

A Nam vet, or so he said, came in to a shop owned by my cousin and started preaching (and I mean preaching) about democrats and 70 plus thousand sealed indictments the President is holding for Democrats, including the one for Obama, and how Trump already has the special cell assigned for him at GB.



I asked him about the Q that they say the White House verifies researchers finding at the end of the rainbow (according to Q followers and posted GAB articles) He nodded.
A few more wild comments about how at the polls he watches as raggedly dressed Democrats with things hanging off their belt (whatever that meant) sadly trying to figure out how to vote, while every Republican who voted wore a suit and stood proudly at their station.

Said his Daddy, who was a Democrat told him he was a traitor, when he changed parties but he had found that all democrats were awful people and not fit for this country.

I asked if his Dad was really that bad a person and he stopped, made the big eyes look and said.
No, my Daddy is a great man.

I couldn't hold back on the guy and he finally scampered out the door with me letting him know I find such talk un-American.

It was a major shock to my cousin, a Republican candidate for Hardin Co. magistrate the last two races (he came very close twice, and will win next election) who read up on the phenomenon while I was there.

I would check out the numbers before discounting a movement like this. Roseanne Barr and conservative talker Curt Schilling are two more prominent believers.

https://compote.slate.com/images/0282cd4c-79b8-4a7c-a5dc-87fb12fab84a.jpeg?width=780&height=520&rect=3000x2000&offset=0x0

[kingcat]

The guy just came back to his shop asking if I had a criminal record. Said he worked in law enforcement and was a warden till he retired and I seemed squirrelly to him. Also asked if his Dad (my uncle) , who he talked to originally was senile or a liar. Swears he was told 90 dollars for a new roll and pleat truck seat cover and foam for his show truck.

:533:

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, there are insane people of all political persuasions. I try to avoid them, but they're out there.

[kingcat]

The Q thing takes the cake.

[KeithKSR]

The Q thing takes the cake.

Q thing?

[kingcat]

Q thing?

QAnon

Q is the entity supplying all the information. The more “enlightened” followers believe it is an alien from the future who is helping Mr Trump dispose of the deep state. Most widely known belief is seventy some thousand sealed indictments of mostly democrats and the refitting of Guantanamo Bay to jail them
I believe the Queen of England is included as well as the former POTUS, the Bush family, Clinton’s, etc..

Roseanne Barr is the most famous believer. as is Curt Schilling. Closely aligned with Nazi truths about WW2 and other events. Inspired the pizzagate gunman and the New York Synagogue massacre.

[Doc]

Guess Im not the only one awake at this ungodly hour

[kingcat]

Donna and I are riding to Ormand Beach with my daughters family. It was a 2:00 AM departure I still haven’t been able to sleep but the free accommodations and trip were something we couldn’t pass up
Paw Paw and Nana will serve as built in sitters a couple of nights.

[kingcat]

Speaking of QAnon. There is a huge new billboard just south of Chattanooga going North that reads.

"QAnon..it is freedom"

It may be dangerous to say but...People have gone plum crazy.

[Catonahottinroof]

Another case of verbal diarrhea from AOC

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/458122-ocasio-cortez-blasts-electoral-college-as-a-scam

[CitizenBBN]

Another case of verbal diarrhea from AOC

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/458122-ocasio-cortez-blasts-electoral-college-as-a-scam

Many Republican lawmakers have dismissed the movement. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said earlier this year that the push was "driven by the idea [that] Democrats want rural America to go away politically."

That sums it up pretty well.

The only real threat is this state compact deal, but I hope SCOTUS strikes it down if it goes into effect. it's an end run around the Constitution and the Federalist system. Ironically it's also a violation of the Voting Rights Act, b/c it basically says all their electoral votes go to whoever gets the most votes, not based on how their state's voters voted. It in theory disenfranchises their own voters.

But AOC once again is nuts. I love people who think they are so much smarter than this nations Founders. Who the hell do they think they are? Our system of government was designed by a group that is among the few truly great moments in human history. A rare coming together of great minds, of men loyal to ideas rather than themselves, most of whom lost their fortunes to create this Great Experiment.

Yet these buffoons who are amazed by things like garbage disposals (true) think they know better.

The hubris of the foolish knows no bounds, and it is undoing the master work of some of the greatest of human minds.

AOC thinks she knows more than Madison, Adams, Jefferson, much less men like Locke and Adam Smith. It would be funny if it wasn't so damned sad. I know I would have to study my whole life just to hope to stand in their shadow, she thinks they are to be dismissed and even scorned, and she's far from alone apparently.

[Doc]

The left wants it both ways. House of Rep seats and electoral collage votes are based on population per the census. Liberals want to include illegal aliens in the census to bolster their House of Representative representation, thus increase the power, yet do away with the electoral collage to lessen the influence, ie power of rural America.

[Doc]

Many Republican lawmakers have dismissed the movement. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said earlier this year that the push was "driven by the idea [that] Democrats want rural America to go away politically."

That sums it up pretty well.

The only real threat is this state compact deal, but I hope SCOTUS strikes it down if it goes into effect. it's an end run around the Constitution and the Federalist system. Ironically it's also a violation of the Voting Rights Act, b/c it basically says all their electoral votes go to whoever gets the most votes, not based on how their state's voters voted. It in theory disenfranchises their own voters.

But AOC once again is nuts. I love people who think they are so much smarter than this nations Founders. Who the hell do they think they are? Our system of government was designed by a group that is among the few truly great moments in human history. A rare coming together of great minds, of men loyal to ideas rather than themselves, most of whom lost their fortunes to create this Great Experiment.

Yet these buffoons who are amazed by things like garbage disposals (true) think they know better.

The hubris of the foolish knows no bounds, and it is undoing the master work of some of the greatest of human minds.

AOC thinks she knows more than Madison, Adams, Jefferson, much less men like Locke and Adam Smith. It would be funny if it wasn't so damned sad. I know I would have to study my whole life just to hope to stand in their shadow, she thinks they are to be dismissed and even scorned, and she's far from alone apparently.

I am always amazed at how circumstances came to be that the framers of the constitution and bill of rights came together to forge documents that were so perfect, and how thru thentest of time they still seem to be the perfect documents

[dan_bgblue]

She has plenty of company at the top 10 of the Political Loon Chart

Trump is afraid of the Squad (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rashida-tlaib-says-trump-is-scared-of-her-and-the-squad)

[CitizenBBN]

She has plenty of company at the top 10 of the Political Loon Chart

Trump is afraid of the Squad (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rashida-tlaib-says-trump-is-scared-of-her-and-the-squad)

Trump isn't afraid of the Squad, he loves them.

He's a lot of things I don't like, but Trump is a master at trolling, and he's constantly trolling the extreme of the DNC b/c he wants them to be the face of the their party for the election. he wants all the cameras on "The Squad" and to make a vote for GOP opponents a vote for them, b/c they're as popular in middle America as a bastard at a family reunion.

[Doc]

Trump isn't afraid of the Squad, he loves them.

He's a lot of things I don't like, but Trump is a master at trolling, and he's constantly trolling the extreme of the DNC b/c he wants them to be the face of the their party for the election. he wants all the cameras on "The Squad" and to make a vote for GOP opponents a vote for them, b/c they're as popular in middle America as a bastard at a family reunion.

Exactly...most democrats do not hold the same philosophies as those idiots but they will show solidarity. Trump will use that to paint all liberal with that brush. It is smart politically. He certainly does not fear them. In fact he loves them. They are a tool for him

[CitizenBBN]

Exactly...most democrats do not hold the same philosophies as those idiots but they will show solidarity. Trump will use that to paint all liberal with that brush. It is smart politically. He certainly does not fear them. In fact he loves them. They are a tool for him

It's a gift for him. Running against Pelosi and Schumer is fine but they're green peppers compared to the habaneros and ghost chilis that are the Squad.

That's why Pelosi et al in the leadership want them to shut up. It's partly their fault for putting them on key committees. Why would you put a person who is staunchly anti-israel and arguably anti-Semitic on the Foreign Affairs committee? Put them on something as mundane as possible, like Science and Industry.

[Catonahottinroof]

https://www.mediaite.com/news/watch-aoc-warns-of-prehistoric-diseases-soylent-green-and-death-from-climate-change-while-making-mac-cheese/

[dan_bgblue]

I am not sure how we managed to survive the opening of the Egyptian tombs or the archeological work being done in the Mayan cities. It also seems to be a miracle that we haven't pumped hundreds of deadly pathogens to the surface from the Ogallala Aquifer. That water is thousands of years old you know. :evilgrin0007:

[Doc]

I am not sure how we managed to survive the opening of the Egyptian tombs or the archeological work being done in the Mayan cities. It also seems to be a miracle that we haven't pumped hundreds of deadly pathogens to the surface from the Ogallala Aquifer. That water is thousands of years old you know. :evilgrin0007:

What, didn't you watch "The Andromeda Strain"? Space travel nearly led to extinction of the earth, and would have had it not been for a crying baby and an old dude eating sterno

[dan_bgblue]

She really needs to get out more. Her concern about mosquitoes moving north is an idiots viewpoint. She said that we need to be concerned about them carrying diseases north throughout the USA. She should have taken a canoe trip in the boundary waters canoe wilderness with me 50 years ago. The dang brown and grizly bears slept under mosquito nets in the summer. Seems like she thinks mosquito are currently a southern problem. They probably can't live in all the New York smog.

[dan_bgblue]

Texas city's Green New Deal experiment (https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/green-new-deal-preview-texas-town-environmentalism-chuck-devore)

oooops

[Catonahottinroof]

https://www.wdrb.com/news/national/aoc-pressley-vow-to-help-pay-bail-for-counter-protesters/article_eb84fa2a-cf0a-11e9-8088-8f40e31e6a4c.html

[Doc]

https://www.wdrb.com/news/national/aoc-pressley-vow-to-help-pay-bail-for-counter-protesters/article_eb84fa2a-cf0a-11e9-8088-8f40e31e6a4c.html

So a straight pride parade is "white supremaist"? How exactly are those two intertwined? And why is it OK to have gay pride but not straight pride? And why must straight people be tolerant of gay people but not vice versa? I don't recall any violence at any gay pride parades. I think who is not tolerant is obvious

[Doc]

AOC fires back after Rep. Steve King posts video of himself drinking water from sink at detention center

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-fires-back-at-steve-king-after-he-posts-video-of-himself-drinking-from-detention-center-toilet-so-anti-immigrant

So is she

1) clueless on how "pink eye" is transmitted? This is sort of like claiming you got crabs from a toilet seat.

2) suggesting that illegal immigrants are disease infested (how it would be painted if Trump uttered this idiocy)

3) so naive as to believe that somebody would "stretch the truth"? She saw nobody drinking from a toilet, only told they did, yet multiple people have refuted it.

[CitizenBBN]

I hear garbage disposals can give you pink eye.

[dan_bgblue]

This is sort of like claiming you got crabs from a toilet seat.

This could happen if the toilet was at the beach.

[dan_bgblue]

So, Rep. Ocasio-Cortez, feel free to have as many kids as you’d like and sleep well. Humans are going to be just fine!

I 100% disagree with the authors take. My recommendation would be immediate sterilization.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/justin-haskins-sleep-well-ocasio-cortez-science-shows-that-climate-change-not-catastrophic-and-actually-has-benefits

[dan_bgblue]

So Miami slips under the sea as AOC watches from the beach in Atlanta.

Ocasio-Cortez was touting her "Green New Deal" program at a NAACP forum Wednesday when she addressed critics who have called her plans "not realistic."

"What is not realistic is not responding to the crisis -- not responding with a solution on the scale of the crisis," she said. "Because what's not realistic is Miami not existing in a few years. That's not realistic. So, we need to be realistic about the problem."

[CitizenBBN]

Has she ever proposed a plan for how to get the rest of the developing world to get on board? This is all spitting into the wind until we can get China and India and the rest of the world to buy into her New Deal.

[dan_bgblue]

Nope, and neither did fat Al

[dan_bgblue]

She is at it again (https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/justin-haskins-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-proves-again-she-has-no-idea-what-she-is-talking-about)

Being out of the media spotlight for a couple of weeks did not suit well with her.

[Catonahottinroof]

Rules for thee, but not for me.....

https://dailycaller.com/2019/09/27/aoc-twitter-blocking-lawsuit/

[CitizenBBN]

Rules for thee, but not for me.....

https://dailycaller.com/2019/09/27/aoc-twitter-blocking-lawsuit/

She'll be losing this one if they follow the 2nd District precedent.

[Doc]

AOC isn't the only fence post dumb one.

Link (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2019/10/01/tlaib-use-only-blacks-detroits-facial-recognition-analysts/3830360002/)

and its the Trump supporters who are supposedly the racists. You know,..... "all blacks look alike". Even offensive to the police chief who happened to be African American.

[dan_bgblue]

AOC isn't the only fence post dumb one.

Link (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2019/10/01/tlaib-use-only-blacks-detroits-facial-recognition-analysts/3830360002/)

and its the Trump supporters who are supposedly the racists. You know,..... "all blacks look alike". Even offensive to the police chief who happened to be African American.

I wonder how Caucasian African Americans feel about the racist nature of those two words? I suspect they do not give a damn about it, but what I think and 10 bucks will get you frozen latte frapacgino and a cookie.

[dan_bgblue]

Does this behavior constitute aiding and abetting the petty criminals? (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-backs-anti-cop-protesters-who-jumped-subway-turnstiles-in-new-york)