Ammo sales.

[DanISSELisdaman]

http://now.msn.com/brownells-firearms-retailer-sells-3-years-of-ammo-in-72-hours

[thedeerehunter]

Unreal...

[suncat05]

Brownell's has good prices, and they ship their stuff right away.
I doubt seriously that any REAL legislation will come out of this incident, but of course, sometimes I am wrong too. Just do not see it happening though.

If any kind of new gun control measures to come forth, it will be through the "back door" of the UN, which out current POTUS and SecState are all enamored with. And don't look for Kerry to be any better. If anything he'll be worse than Billary...........if you can even imagine that! :sAng_soapbox:

[CitizenBBN]

Ask how much I have on order. I dare ya. ;)

The distributors are cleared out of about every 20 or 30 round mag, every AR, AK, everything listed in the possible ban. All of them. New, surplus, everything. RSR was showing 5-6K of one mag I went back the next day they were out.

Wish I had a room full of ARs. Sold a Bushmaster some months ago an an auction for $600. They're going for as much as $3,000 right now.

[CitizenBBN]

And not to be salesy but if anyone wants any (can ship but figuring pickup in general lex region) let me know quick. I'm a dealer for wolf and I'm putting in an order. I deal in quantity only so 500 or 1,000 round increments.

(don't want to violate site rules re commercial stuff but also know some ksr folk may be looking for some )

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[CattyWampus]

On a related note, my son ordered a home defender shotgun from Bud's Gun Shop and received notification Friday that it was available for pickup in Lexington. He called me and asked if I wanted to ride up with him on Saturday morning to pick it up. We got there at 9:10 (they open at 9:00) and the store was jam packed. My son's number was 61. It took an hour for his number to be called and another twenty minutes for the background check and to check out. It looked like for every one person checking out, another 3-4 people came into the store. By the time we left the store, the next number was 192.

While waiting, I talked to the young lady at the front of the store about how busy they have been and she told me that typically their business is pretty strong but that it had more than doubled after the election. She said it had begun to settle down and then the Newtown shooting happened, and they got slammed again and it hasn't slowed down. She said demand was strong across all product lines. She said inventories on many firearms and magazines were depleted and they were experiencing delays on shipments from the factories.

Prior to the Newtown shootings, I had read where in some parts of the country, dealers were having problems getting through to the FBI for the background checks. I won't be shocked if it becomes even more difficult for dealers to get through for those checks. Holder will simply make sure that the process is slowed way down. Afterall, if you can't get your paperwork approved, you can't leave the shop with your firearm. IMO, the whole process of getting the background check is antiquated. You can't fill out the paperwork ahead of time and bring it to the store. You need to fill out a new form every time you purchase a firearm because they have no record system that allows the approvals to be archived to reduce the burden on the approval system. Since they use a data base tied to your s/s number, you would think they'd have a more streamlined system.

[bigsky]

Been holding off for a real reason lack of $$, but now it's 10mm Glock time. The nostalgic in me wants a Colt but I didn't have the $700 for the well tuned and display quality one i was fondling either

Either way, both ways, they're on the chopping block and I'll sacrifice a basketball trip to get them now.

[CitizenBBN]

Wampus -- you don't want a streamlined check system. The whole design was fought by the NRA to keep it from being streamlined. However, I do agree with you on some things that could make it quicker.

A few things..

1) NICS has been very busy, always is this time of year but even more now. They've shut down the customer service side to just do the background checks. Had to last year as well, but this year is busier no doubt.

2) there is no registration in NICS. They don't know what guns you're buying and any record of the inquiry is deleted within 48 hours by law. If they kept the inquiries they'd have a national database of who is buying firearms and the NRA fought tooth and nail to keep that from happening.

For example, a paper in New York just used freedom of information to publish all the handgun permit holders and their addresses in their 2 counties of circulation so people would "know what guns were in their neighborhoods":

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/25/new-york-newspaper-faces-backlash-after-publishing-map-gun-permit-holders/?intcmp=trending

That's what the NICS system was designed to avoid, any record of who is buying guns.

3) the only record of what you bought is on the 4473 form, which is maintained by the dealer but doesn't go to the government unless the dealer closes and doesn't sell the business. Even then they aren't entered into a database.

We want a system that is antiquated at least on the buyer end. I've proposed fixing it on the database side so we can better find felons etc. but we want the ability to know what people are buying to be as crippled as possible.

4) The biggest reason the system is overburdened is in fact the dealers. We use the web interface for our checks, it's very efficient b/c we type in the info, it comes up there on their screen, they clear it or not, far easier. Only about 1% of dealers use it though. It requires installing a client side SSL certificate and apparently none of them know how to do that. I find that to be a less than acceptable reason. Even the big ones like Cabella's still call in on the phone.

5) I do think it wouldn't hurt for people to pre-fill their 4473. Obviously not a tracking issue, and the dealer has to verify it regardless. If you buy again within 5 days you don't have to fill out another one but that doesn't come up too often even in the retail stores.

So I both agree and disagree. I want a system that keeps no records, but it could be better if the dealers would take advantage of some stuff the FBI has offered. They even offer a form fill PDF they can do, no one uses it either.

At our gun auctions we sell as many as 200 guns in 4-5 hours and we keep up with all the checks very well by using the web interface. we dont' even have a single person just to do them, we have two people who jump on and off as needed. If the dealers would get up to speed on this it would help.

We do hand out a 4473 when you buy your first gun so that gets filled out but we can't do the check until you are done b/c the submission requires we check "handgun, long gun, both" and we won't know that in most cases till someone checks out. We can do the check in under a minute.

[CitizenBBN]

Been holding off for a real reason lack of $$, but now it's 10mm Glock time. The nostalgic in me wants a Colt but I didn't have the $700 for the well tuned and display quality one i was fondling either

Either way, both ways, they're on the chopping block and I'll sacrifice a basketball trip to get them now.

What kind of Colt? Shame you don't want a 357 Sig Glock b/c I have a sweet one.

[bigsky]

http://www.businessinsider.com/marines-reissue-1911-colt-45-because-the-9-mm-has-no-balls-2012-8

[CattyWampus]

Wampus -- you don't want a streamlined check system. The whole design was fought by the NRA to keep it from being streamlined. However, I do agree with you on some things that could make it quicker.

A few things..

1) NICS has been very busy, always is this time of year but even more now. They've shut down the customer service side to just do the background checks. Had to last year as well, but this year is busier no doubt.

2) there is no registration in NICS. They don't know what guns you're buying and any record of the inquiry is deleted within 48 hours by law. If they kept the inquiries they'd have a national database of who is buying firearms and the NRA fought tooth and nail to keep that from happening.

For example, a paper in New York just used freedom of information to publish all the handgun permit holders and their addresses in their 2 counties of circulation so people would "know what guns were in their neighborhoods":

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/25/new-york-newspaper-faces-backlash-after-publishing-map-gun-permit-holders/?intcmp=trending

That's what the NICS system was designed to avoid, any record of who is buying guns.

3) the only record of what you bought is on the 4473 form, which is maintained by the dealer but doesn't go to the government unless the dealer closes and doesn't sell the business. Even then they aren't entered into a database.

We want a system that is antiquated at least on the buyer end. I've proposed fixing it on the database side so we can better find felons etc. but we want the ability to know what people are buying to be as crippled as possible.

4) The biggest reason the system is overburdened is in fact the dealers. We use the web interface for our checks, it's very efficient b/c we type in the info, it comes up there on their screen, they clear it or not, far easier. Only about 1% of dealers use it though. It requires installing a client side SSL certificate and apparently none of them know how to do that. I find that to be a less than acceptable reason. Even the big ones like Cabella's still call in on the phone.

5) I do think it wouldn't hurt for people to pre-fill their 4473. Obviously not a tracking issue, and the dealer has to verify it regardless. If you buy again within 5 days you don't have to fill out another one but that doesn't come up too often even in the retail stores.

So I both agree and disagree. I want a system that keeps no records, but it could be better if the dealers would take advantage of some stuff the FBI has offered. They even offer a form fill PDF they can do, no one uses it either.

At our gun auctions we sell as many as 200 guns in 4-5 hours and we keep up with all the checks very well by using the web interface. we dont' even have a single person just to do them, we have two people who jump on and off as needed. If the dealers would get up to speed on this it would help.

We do hand out a 4473 when you buy your first gun so that gets filled out but we can't do the check until you are done b/c the submission requires we check "handgun, long gun, both" and we won't know that in most cases till someone checks out. We can do the check in under a minute.

Hey, thanks. That was really helpful. I was concerned that an administration as corrupt as Obama's might use the information for other purposes. At Bud's, they won't even give you the form to fill out while you're waiting for your number to be called. I asked why and they said that people were leaving the store with them and coming back a few days later. Apparently, that's a no-no.

[suncat05]

Been holding off for a real reason lack of $$, but now it's 10mm Glock time. The nostalgic in me wants a Colt but I didn't have the $700 for the well tuned and display quality one i was fondling either

Either way, both ways, they're on the chopping block and I'll sacrifice a basketball trip to get them now.

10mm? Just wondering, but WHY a 10mm? Ammo for that is hard to find and very expensive when you do find it. Yeah, I know it packs a big punch much like a .357 magnum, just wonder what you find so interesting about a caliber that never really caught on and is kinda outside the mainstream.
I'm a .40 S&W guy, myself. Like the .38 Special and the 9mm too, but mostly because if it ever hits the fan, those are going to be the calibers you'll find on the dead bodies laying around. Although even in those calibers the ammo will become troublesome to find quickly if things ever go 'south'.
Again, just wondering. :533:

[CitizenBBN]

My personal preference is for 45 but 9 and 380 are more suited to carry as are 38 and 357. I like revolvers more and more for carry. They'll almost never FTf under the worst circumstances. IMO the military should never have gone away from 45. I know you can carry more ammo but the colt m1909 is a great example Of how stopping power is sometimes more important ESP in sidearm where you know you're already in a desperate situation. Of course it fired 45 colt so it had stopping power to spare.

I like the 357 sig a lot for sa. Good balance between power and weight.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[KeithKSR]

Brownell's has good prices, and they ship their stuff right away.
I doubt seriously that any REAL legislation will come out of this incident, but of course, sometimes I am wrong too. Just do not see it happening though.

If any kind of new gun control measures to come forth, it will be through the "back door" of the UN, which out current POTUS and SecState are all enamored with. And don't look for Kerry to be any better. If anything he'll be worse than Billary...........if you can even imagine that! :sAng_soapbox:

The Senate Dems the media listed as favoring new firearms regulations after previously opposing the bans have backed off their new found stances and returned to their former pro-Second Amendment stances. Seems their constituents caught wind of their remarks and a few protests took place. Joe Manchin even wrote an Op Ed in the Washington Post stating he supported the millions of NRA members and would not endorse taking away Second Amendment rights.

Obama must have already conceded the battle is untenable as well, his task force is to be headed by Bumblin' Joe. When Bumblin' Joe is assigned to do anything it is a sure sign of that BHO lacks faith in the passage of that legislation. Legislation he thinks he can get passed is handed to either his Chicago minions or the far leftists from other parts of the country.

I think the UN treaty would require a 2/3 vote by the Senate before it would become American law as our Constitution is written. Ofcourse, we all know how much Constitutional Law means to BHO. If it passes I expect that one to end up in front of the SCOTUS if there is no treaty presented to the Senate for a vote. BHO and the State Department lack the authority to enter into an agreement with another nation without approval by the Senate.

[CitizenBBN]

Keith, thanks for the update. Good news on the renewed 2nd amendment beliefs of those members who are so concerned... about their congressional seats. Whatever the reason, I'll take it.

I've seen opinions both ways about Biden heading this up. he was a big part of getting the original ban passed so they say while his other tasks have been busy work this is serious. The others point out as you do that everything else has been busy work.

Politically it'll be interesting b/c the major fight is the budget and while I have no doubt Obama would round up everything bigger than a slingshot in a second I don't know if he'll have the political chips to use with this mess getting worse, at least not at this time. Feinstein will use them, she's a true zealot on this cause, but not sure the White House will be in position to do it.

I've never been 100% in line with the NRA and I'm still not, but this is one of those times I'm glad they're a little on the no-compromise side b/c in the local races those guys know they'll target anyone and spend to get them out.

Also, regardless of the polls, in my part of the world this has in a way made people more pro-gun if it's defined as "I need to get one or have more". We're not even running more ads for our next conceal carry class as we think it may be full already. Trying to do another one in no more than a month. many of those will be first time handgun owners.

Those people aren't likely to support the ban. Some do, some of those b/c they don't really understand 'assault rifles' are to the gun control crowd things like the Mini 14 and some b/c they are mistakenly seeing them as separate from other gun issues. I see their point, but this is a classic case of the Martin Niemoller soliloquy "First they came". If we don't all hang together we're all going to hang separately, even putting aside some of our internal differences. There hasn't been a nation yet that banned a certain type of gun that didn't eventually ban them all.

[CitizenBBN]

The UN treaty is something Feinstein was focused on before these shootings. Knowing the climate was bad for things like the ban she was hoping to get the Small Arms treaty passed and then use it.

It's an interesting stroke b/c the treaty of course only controls transfers between nations, thus ostensibly not impacting US gun rights. There are two caveats though. First is the importation of guns. They could make it much harder to get guns brought in from elsewhere to reduce the supply, and you know they would. We'd start making them but presumably they'd be more expensive, etc. Anything to hurt the market.

Far more important Mexico has been calling publicly for US gun law changes including a national gun registry. The Mexican President telling us how to treat our own citizens.

The argument is all built around civilian guns going to the cartels in Mexico, the whole reason for F&F. Feinstein already had her report calling for action based on this angle ready when F&F was exposed. that was their new plan of attack.

If the treaty is passed and signed by the US then Mexico could argue at the UN that these guns crossing the border are a treaty violation (which it easily could be, even I see how it would fit), and thus we have to change our laws to conform to prevent those transfers to conform to the treaty. You can bet Feinstein wouldn't support putting up a wall. A real back end approach. Subtle, but not subtle enough for the NRA or the NSSF or others. the NSSF and the others aren't really political at all so for them to protest it you know it's bad law.

[CitizenBBN]

FWIW, the reason the other nations want it has nothing to do with the US, but the language saying UN members can only sell to UN recognized member states. That is to say, providing arms to rebels and insurgencies would be a treaty violation. Now it's easy to see why Iran got a committee chair. The more repressive the regime, the more at risk they are of a civil war, the more they want this treaty.

So it's horrible law on every level. Not unlike most everything the UN produces, a law that helps the large numbers of backward Third World potentates and fascist regimes in the world at the expense of the West, the US and freedom in general.

[KeithKSR]

My personal preference is for 45 but 9 and 380 are more suited to carry as are 38 and 357.


I really like the .45. I've got a Rock Island 1911A clone, upgraded it with an 18 lb spring and full length guide rod. I need to get a couple of ten round mags for it, every little bit of extra firepower could be handy at some time or another. I think my next purchase will be a 9mm, just to add some extra flexibility to my ammo choices beyond the .45 and the revolver calibers I have on hand.

[suncat05]

The Senate Dems the media listed as favoring new firearms regulations after previously opposing the bans have backed off their new found stances and returned to their former pro-Second Amendment stances. Seems their constituents caught wind of their remarks and a few protests took place. Joe Manchin even wrote an Op Ed in the Washington Post stating he supported the millions of NRA members and would not endorse taking away Second Amendment rights.

Obama must have already conceded the battle is untenable as well, his task force is to be headed by Bumblin' Joe. When Bumblin' Joe is assigned to do anything it is a sure sign of that BHO lacks faith in the passage of that legislation. Legislation he thinks he can get passed is handed to either his Chicago minions or the far leftists from other parts of the country.

I think the UN treaty would require a 2/3 vote by the Senate before it would become American law as our Constitution is written. Ofcourse, we all know how much Constitutional Law means to BHO. If it passes I expect that one to end up in front of the SCOTUS if there is no treaty presented to the Senate for a vote. BHO and the State Department lack the authority to enter into an agreement with another nation without approval by the Senate.

Yeah, it gets passed and goes before the SCOTUS, I'm sure CJ Roberts will go out of his way to claim it's a TAX, and therefore constitutional! :juggle:

[KeithKSR]

Also, regardless of the polls, in my part of the world this has in a way made people more pro-gun if it's defined as "I need to get one or have more". We're not even running more ads for our next conceal carry class as we think it may be full already. Trying to do another one in no more than a month. many of those will be first time handgun owners.

Those people aren't likely to support the ban. Some do, some of those b/c they don't really understand 'assault rifles' are to the gun control crowd things like the Mini 14 and some b/c they are mistakenly seeing them as separate from other gun issues. I see their point, but this is a classic case of the Martin Niemoller soliloquy "First they came". If we don't all hang together we're all going to hang separately, even putting aside some of our internal differences. There hasn't been a nation yet that banned a certain type of gun that didn't eventually ban them all.

I think all too often people who don't know anything, or know very little, about firearms take the word from the gun-banners that speak of "assault weapons" (in all reality these weapons are not true assault weapons as they lack selective fire or automatic capabilities) and their vast firepower that allows them to fire "hundreds of rounds" a minute. That thinking to me is something out of Hollywood where every weapon seemingly is fully automatic, and has an unlimited magazine capacity.

[Darrell KSR]

Also, regardless of the polls, in my part of the world this has in a way made people more pro-gun if it's defined as "I need to get one or have more". We're not even running more ads for our next conceal carry class as we think it may be full already. Trying to do another one in no more than a month. many of those will be first time handgun owners.

Zero doubt about that.

[CitizenBBN]

Keith lots of folks don't understand, and I don't blame them. The anti-gun folks have gone out of their way to systematically create that image based on the look of the gun not its function. They want everyone to think it's the bottomless guns from the movies that spray ammo and blow up cars.

The only effective difference between a Remington semi-auto hunting rifle like the 740/7400 is the magazine size. The 740/7400 shoots far more powerful rounds. Think that 223 is nasty? try a 30-06.

The only additional 'danger' of ARs and other "assault weapons" is capacity. That's it. The Mini 14 is less powerful than the 7400 but b/c it has had larger capacity mags made for it it's on the list. The 7400 isn't on the list b/c it comes with 5 round mags. Few similar guns go above 10.

So at the most all you do is ban the magazines. Anything else is just for effect and to get us down the road towards more gun limits.

Most people don't know that, so they don't know they're being sold a bill of goods. Now they're "weapons of war", which is even more absurdly wrong than "assault weapon".

heck, in the last ban they sold AKs legally, they just had wood stocks and no pistol grips and you couldn't buy them with mags more than 10 rounds. Then they allowed you to modify them but you had to have at least 9 US made parts and there are all these silly rules. it ended up being endless silliness, which combined with its complete lack of effectiveness is why the ban was allowed to expire.

[KeithKSR]

Chuck, way too much emphasis is on magazine size, IMO. It takes a decent shooter very little time to change a magazine, and most decent shooters aren't going to spray massive amounts of lead downwind. Any rifle of the AK/AR and many other variants on the list can double their magazine size by using some duct tape and taping an extra magazine to the other upside down. A quick disconnect, flip and reconnect is all the movement that is needed.

I consider the .223 to be a varmint caliber, fit for coyotes and the like; it would not be my choice for a combat caliber. Agree with you on the 740/7400 Remington. Those rifles in any caliber .243 or above are much more lethal with 5 shots than the AR is with 15. The M16's three round burst is an option for a reason, someone along the way has decided it would take three rounds to incapacitate the enemy, you aren't going to attempt to take out three targets in a burst. I think the need for three round burst speaks loudly of the .222 caliber's lethality.

What makes little common sense with the weapons on the ban list is that few fit what criminals are likely to use. A number of these weapons are high end weapons and not the cheap, easy to obtain weapons that the criminal element is more likely to use.

The SKS is a good example of a firearm that was on the banned list last time around if it had been altered from original and did not have at least 9 US made parts. The SKS can be altered to look quite different, depending what is added. Put a folding stock on it with the forward hand grip, a heat shield; toss on a few other goodies like a one-point sling, bipod, muzzle break, tactical scope, and tactical light and the rifle looks every bit like the assault weapons that spew hundreds of bullets out of bottomless magazines on Hollywood movie sets. Drop the same action into a Monte Carlo stock with a hunting sling and standard 3-9x40 scope and it looks a lot like a run of the mill semiautomatic hunting rifle. Neither rifle is more lethal than the other. One was legal to possess, the other was not.

[BigBlue92]

I consider the .223 to be a varmint caliber, fit for coyotes and the like; it would not be my choice for a combat caliber. Agree with you on the 740/7400 Remington. Those rifles in any caliber .243 or above are much more lethal with 5 shots than the AR is with 15. The M16's three round burst is an option for a reason, someone along the way has decided it would take three rounds to incapacitate the enemy, you aren't going to attempt to take out three targets in a burst. I think the need for three round burst speaks loudly of the .222 caliber's lethality.



Many good points, Keith. I am not sure .223 was meant to be a lethal round, though. It was meant to create a wounded soldier, not a KIA. Debatable wisdom, esp against an enemy willing to die. But the real reason I am considering finally joining the 223 crowd is ammo availability and cost. I have a sniper package (customized Rem 700), and the 308 is just too hard to find and too expensive to run a lot of rounds. Esp match quality. If it hits the fan, I won't be able to get it unless I load my own.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[bigsky]

.338>30.06>.270>.308>7mm08 although the new short magnums are nice and getting much more available. Flat shooting rifles are fun, and shock power cant be dismissed, but nothing beats a big piece of lead. The .308 just isn't flat shooting enough for Montana's big country. Lots of people go to the 7mm magnum but its a big round and hard to reload. I like a long neck, unbelted.

.44>.357>.38 call me red hawk Harry

.220 swift>22.250>.223 or .222 love that 4000fps

.22 rimfire magnum>.22 rimfire for the bottom of the boat, my 20 gauge/.22 rimfire mag is nice

That's the pattern of my thinking, and owning.

And yes, reloading>buying off the shelf.

But if you're old school minimalist .30.06 and .45 Colt. a .22 and a 12 gauge will suffice.

Minimally.

Right now I only have two auto pistols, a .22 rimfire for target shooting and a vintage .32 acp. The colt is my little travel companion.

[BigBlue92]

If I lived in MT, I would check out the .333 lapua. But it is way worse even on ammo cost and availability than the 308. That will cover some distance. If you don't have a big Barrett .50, of course. I would love to shoot one of those.

I am in the same old school, mostly for time reasons. Don't have time to shoot, with small kids and the time it takes to go find a place to shoot if you live in Fayette County. .45 ACP, .308 bolt action (Rem 700 action), short-barrel 12 guage pump, .22 semi-auto.

Do you load? I have been looking at it - specifically the Dillon 550B progressive press, but as little as I get to shoot it is hard to justify.

Chuck, check you PMs.

[suncat05]

Many good points, Keith. I am not sure .223 was meant to be a lethal round, though. It was meant to create a wounded soldier, not a KIA. Debatable wisdom, esp against an enemy willing to die. But the real reason I am considering finally joining the 223 crowd is ammo availability and cost. I have a sniper package (customized Rem 700), and the 308 is just too hard to find and too expensive to run a lot of rounds. Esp match quality. If it hits the fan, I won't be able to get it unless I load my own.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Well, I do believe that the .223/5.56mm round is more than adequate to kill a man. Lots of our enemies have been killed with this round.
Your other point goes to military doctrine, in which many militaries could care less about their troops. Their troops get wounded, they get walked over/run over, walked away from. The Chinese do this, so do the Russians. Their doctrine does not value their troops.
American military doctrine calls for our wounded to be evacuated ASAP. As little waiting as possible, as much battlefield care as possible until EVAC., even to the point of taking troops away from the fighting to care for our wounded. We also have, without a doubt, the best trained battlefield medics anywhere. ANYWHERE.
And as far as how many rounds it takes.......... if it takes one, good......if it takes three, good........if it takes more, that's good too. As long as the bad guy gets dead, whatever it takes is good. But American doctrine calls for three rounds to get it done, according to the battlefield studies/simulations done to see what is the most efficient/cost effective way to kill our enemies.

[Darrell KSR]

Saw a video today where they said it takes 59 foot pounds to drive a potentially legal blow. They did it on a demonstration at 450 yards.

With a .22. No, not ideal. But very telling.

Sent using Forum Runner. All typos excused.

[CitizenBBN]

Saw a video today where they said it takes 59 foot pounds to drive a potentially legal blow. They did it on a demonstration at 450 yards.

With a .22. No, not ideal. But very telling.

Sent using Forum Runner. All typos excused.

I'm going to link to Chuck Hawk's great site, a chart that is based on the work of Marshall and Sanow. Their conclusions are HOTLY contested and debated, but their data is sound as long as you know what they did. They looked at police records of shootings and which calibers and ammo were used and developed a percentage of times that combo resulted in a "one shot stop".

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

Take that fwiw but in their data a .22 LR shot resulted in a one shot stop between 20 and 33% of the cases examined.

With all the talk out there about how this round or that round wont' stop someone, the truth is any caliber bullet can kill a person and where you shoot someone has a whole lot to do with it. Does no good to shoot a 45 if you can't shoot it well.

It's also all about the situation. Attackers don't politely announce they're going to attack you from 7 yards out and wait for you to get your ear protection on. that's why the 25ACP is involved in so many crime shootings. They're standing right in front of each other when the shooting starts.

I'm in the "any gun you have on you is better than the one in your gun safe" camp. For carry I see no reason to go below 380 b/c they make mouse gun sized guns in 380 now, smaller calibers aren't smaller guns. 9mm just a little bigger, and nothing beats a revolver in 38/38+P/357 for reliability.

Anyway, I digress. The 223 will sure kill someone, but a 30-06 will kill quicker, i.e. stopping power. You can kill a deer with a 22 but it's not legal b/c they won't drop in their tracks. Any hunter knows it's about shot placement and one shot stop.

So the 740/7400 and any other number of guns are more effective at killing someone with one shot on average than the assault weapon calibers. Those calibers were chosen so troops could carry more ammunition b/c they will be acquiring multiple targets in situations where they will have to shoot more than once. Hunting deer is totally different. The military didn't move away from the 30-06 b/c the 223 was a superior round. It flat isn't, it's just you can carry far more 223 than 30-06. That and the distance of combat went from 100s of yards to 10s of yards so the drop off of rounds like 223 wasn't a barrier.

BUT, any caliber can kill a person or a deer. I recoil a bit at the idea that "a 22 will just make them angry" as if we're shooting BBs.

Along these lines and on point with the Newtown/Assault weapon debate, there was a schoolyard shooting in 1979 by Brenda Spencer in San Diego that inspired the Boomtow Rats song "I don't like Mondays". She used a 22 rifle and just shot almost randomly into a school yard from her window. Killed two adults, wounded 8 children. Her explanation for her actions was "I don't like Mondays. This livened things up." She was 16 at the time.

[CitizenBBN]

Wampus -- picking up on our discussion of the NICS checks, got email from them today they are no longer sending checks that need "eyes" to agents, they are queuing it as "delayed" and it goes in line.

some come back with a basic "approve", some are only slightly delayed as it goes to an agent to scan the data and you get a very quick "approve" (often a minute or less), so those are both "approve". the next status is "delayed", which means they need to look at something closer. This goes to all those database issues I described elsewhere.

If it goes to "delayed" the ATF has 3 business days to investigate otherwise the gun can go out the door (with some exceptions they can set about release dates, but in general). What's happening is the delays are piling up so bad they are going to start missing the 3 day windows due just to the queue to process which obviously is a bad thing for all of us. By pushing these "quick looks" to the delayed pile they can focus 100% on the delays that are coming up on the 3 day deadline.

It's crazy busy for them. The funny part is the ban is looking less likely than last week or 2 weeks ago, but everyone is going to be safe and get their guns now.

it's not just gun owners buying more either. We added a 2nd conceal carry date and we're probably going to have a 3rd and many if not most of them will be first time handgun owners. It's also a rush of people buying their first gun before they are banned. Not a lot of support for a ban on those guns if non gun owners think they have a need, now is there?

In blue states the reaction may be different, but here in red state land we're adding new first time gun owners by the truck load with the threat of the ban. Probably not what Feinstein intended. lol.

[BigBlue92]

CBBN, I PM'd you yesterday but since u have not seen it I will repeat it here:

I did not realize you are a CCDW instructor. I have been looking. How do I find the dates for your class, how many to fill a class of my own, and/or do you offer a private class?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[CitizenBBN]

Hey, sorry just saw it and responded with all the details. I have GOT to change my layout to highlight them. On Forum Runner they show so well and I forget it when I'm on the computer. not good since I get them for site stuff as well.

It's rambly though, fair warning. We'll get something figured out.

[KeithKSR]

Well, I do believe that the .223/5.56mm round is more than adequate to kill a man. Lots of our enemies have been killed with this round.
Your other point goes to military doctrine, in which many militaries could care less about their troops. Their troops get wounded, they get walked over/run over, walked away from. The Chinese do this, so do the Russians. Their doctrine does not value their troops.
American military doctrine calls for our wounded to be evacuated ASAP. As little waiting as possible, as much battlefield care as possible until EVAC., even to the point of taking troops away from the fighting to care for our wounded. We also have, without a doubt, the best trained battlefield medics anywhere. ANYWHERE.
And as far as how many rounds it takes.......... if it takes one, good......if it takes three, good........if it takes more, that's good too. As long as the bad guy gets dead, whatever it takes is good. But American doctrine calls for three rounds to get it done, according to the battlefield studies/simulations done to see what is the most efficient/cost effective way to kill our enemies.

It's been a while since I have read about the 5.56, but I recall that another issue that impacted the 5.56 round being adopted were Geneva convention issues dealing with bullet fragmentation. The old .308 and .30-06 rounds fragmented a lot on impact, causing some nasty and lethal wounds. With the battlefield rounds needing to be designed with full metal jackets to prevent fragmenting the more powerful .308 and .30-06 rounds had the ability to pass through combatants and wounds that formerly took down the enemy then let them remain in the battle with their wounds. The 5.56 round hitting the same enemy in the same spot would tend to tumble more upon impact and do more damage as a result. This action of the lighter round resulted in taking an enemy down.

[BigBlue92]

The 7.62mm is the same size as the .308, and it is even more widely used that the 5.56. Of course in the AK weapons of the Soviet bloc, but NATO uses it too. I know we use it extensively in our sniper and marksman weapons (up to the 50 cal). Doesn't mean there isn't something to that, but it isn't the size alone.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Jeeepcat]

Somewhat OT, I enjoy this app:

http://ballisticscalculator.winchester.com/

[Jeeepcat]

I order ammo from Sportsmansguide.com I almost always have something on back order LOL

I really like the Wolf 7.62 - so I should order from Chuck in the future :happy0001:

[KeithKSR]

The 7.62mm is the same size as the .308, and it is even more widely used that the 5.56. Of course in the AK weapons of the Soviet bloc, but NATO uses it too. I know we use it extensively in our sniper and marksman weapons (up to the 50 cal). Doesn't mean there isn't something to that, but it isn't the size alone.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

The 7.62 NATO is a lot different than the 7.62 x 39 Russian round. The NATO round, a .308 Win round, packs a lot more punch than the 7.62 x39. For military use the rounds use a FMJ, I've got an SKS that uses the Russian round, not much power behind that round, but it will take a whitetail using a hollow point round.

[CitizenBBN]

I order ammo from Sportsmansguide.com I almost always have something on back order LOL

I really like the Wolf 7.62 - so I should order from Chuck in the future :happy0001:

How many rounds ya want? :)


The 308 Winchester (7.62x51mm NATO) was actually developed by the US Army at Springfield Armory and work was begun before WWII even ended.

It was driven by the creation of the M1 Carbine firing the .30 Carbine. They wanted a round smaller than the 30-06 but bigger and with more punch than the .30 and with as much of the power of the 30-06 as possible for the smaller size.

That round was approved and then permission was given to Winchester to market it as the 308 Winchester, and the M-14 was developed some years later to use the round. Interestingly Winchester was obviously working on a commercial version of the 308 casing before Ordnance was done with the approval process.

Anyway, the goal was to have a round suitable for the next generation of rifles that would be selective fire and be able to carry as much ammo as possible within the ballistic goals, i.e. have as small a round as possible. The 308 was born of a compromise between the .30 Carbine (small but not much punch) and the 30-06 (workhorse round of the army for decades).

The 5.56 NATO/223 was born of the same basic goals as the 308 is pretty heavy for selective fire shooting. Lots more recoil and again considered maybe a heavier round than necessary. More round than necessary means more weight, more recoil, more wear on the rifle and more weight in the rifle.

Personally I see some European influence in the 223 in that European nations are always picking a caliber smaller than what is seen as "enough" in the US market. No one here shoots 32 ACP unless b/c it's in a super small conceal gun. In Europe they still issue it to police.

There's no doubt the power/punch has dropped significantly from the 30-06, but battles at the time were not the long distance fights of older wars. 30-06 in the jungle is a lot. Of course in Afghanistan it's not.

[CitizenBBN]

FWIW the trend has continued in the Soviet gun scheme as well. They've moved from the 7.62x39mm to the 5.45x39mm and the AK-47 became the AK-74. Another move to smaller rounds. They make up for the smaller round with higher velocities in order to carry more ammo, have less recoil and thus lighter weapons as well.

The Ak-47 and the 7.62x39mm is the most ubiquitous development in weaponry history, but the Soviets moved from it in the 70s to the smaller round and lighter AK-74. Even most "gun people" don't seem to know that b/c the AK-47 is so well known and used by non Soviet armies the world over. The 5.45x39mm is hardly used in the US, and the 7.62 is IMO the most common caliber at least in the South and midwest. As many ARs as are out there there are a ton of SKSs and AKs, and the SKSs have been extremely popular in the South. Rugged, simple, reliable, cheap. The Southern tradition of using what works whether it's pretty or not. And the SKS and AK chew cheaper steel case ammo like candy.

[Jeeepcat]

I love my Saiga in all of its stamped metal glory lol
Just want a shotgun to go with it

[Jeeepcat]

Chuck you getting any 9mm wolf in?
Let me know about ccdw too for me and wife

[CitizenBBN]

Chuck you getting any 9mm wolf in?
Let me know about ccdw too for me and wife

Around 20,000-30,000 rounds of it. More if I can rob some people and get the cash.

I'll PM you (have a couple others on here as well interested), we're getting ready to expand where we have the classes. Trying to work out the details.

[suncat05]

There is nothing wrong with the 5.56 mm/.223 caliber round. Now, it may not be as effective at distances over 300 meters/yards that everyone would like, but at that range and inside of that range it is more than adequate at incapacitating an enemy.
No round is perfect, no matter the caliber. Work with what you have, deal with it within its limitations. Shot placement is more important than caliber.
1)Proper grip, 2)proper stance(or position, as the case may be!), 3)sight alignment, 4)proper breathing, 5)proper trigger squeeze(or pull, or whatever you like to call it!).
You do those five steps correctly and caliber doesn't matter all that much. Yeah, the bigger the better........ sure. A bigger ball bat works in baseball, a bigger football player makes a bigger hit on defense, a bigger basketball player makes a better player most of the time, but..........use what you have efficiently, make it as reliable as possible, and the caliber doesn't matter all that much at that point.
At least to my way of thinking. Focus on the basics, not the caliber. But that's just me.

[CitizenBBN]

There is nothing wrong with the 5.56 mm/.223 caliber round. Now, it may not be as effective at distances over 300 meters/yards that everyone would like, but at that range and inside of that range it is more than adequate at incapacitating an enemy.
No round is perfect, no matter the caliber. Work with what you have, deal with it within its limitations. Shot placement is more important than caliber.
1)Proper grip, 2)proper stance(or position, as the case may be!), 3)sight alignment, 4)proper breathing, 5)proper trigger squeeze(or pull, or whatever you like to call it!).
You do those five steps correctly and caliber doesn't matter all that much. Yeah, the bigger the better........ sure. A bigger ball bat works in baseball, a bigger football player makes a bigger hit on defense, a bigger basketball player makes a better player most of the time, but..........use what you have efficiently, make it as reliable as possible, and the caliber doesn't matter all that much at that point.
At least to my way of thinking. Focus on the basics, not the caliber. But that's just me.

I should clarify b/c I looked at my post and esp. the Euro comment made me think it came off as me criticizing the round.

I'm really not. Just b/c an Automag in 50AE has more punch than a 9mm doesn't mean everyone should carry them. I often laugh when I see people posting about a 22 or 25 not doing anything to someone. As you said, yeah in the pinky finger they don't stop you, but neither does a 45. Put it in the right place and it's all over.

The Soviets went the same way for the same reasons. The guns have less recoil which means more accurate shooting whether a follow up shot or select fire.

The only criticism I have of the smaller rounds, and this is true off them all in rifle/pistol and not just the 223, is they all give up on penetration/knock down power more than bigger rounds. Like I said it's a tradeoff. Everyone thinks the 45 ACP is the big daddy of pistols, but it was a step down from the 45 Colt issued in guns like the M1909. No doubt people were lamenting the "weak" 45 ACP. (I will say the 38 was the standard caliber prior to the 45 so most troops saw a bigger round, but the M1909 was 45 Colt so they stepped down from their biggest pistol caliber)

I pretty strongly think we need to carry 45 for sidearms b/c if you go to your sidearm you need to stop people NOW b/c they're 10 feet from you and closing. That's a function of the role of the sidearm, the fact they don't have to conceal carry it, and they will carry very limited ammo for a sidearm so the weight difference is pretty small.

The thing about the Euro comment is Americans at just about every level choose a bigger, heavier round than the Europeans. Same with our cars. They have high rev little sports car engins, we make bigger engines with more horses. Where they use a 32 we use a 38 and now a 9mm. Where they may use a 308 we use a 30/06. Size over speed.

I don't pretend to have combat experience so I won't even take the first step down the road of which round is superior between something like the .223 and the Grendel. I can look at the numbers and I have beliefs about the basic physics that a 30/06 is obviously more stopping power than a 223 b/c I can see that with deer hunting, but once you get past the big picture to the subtleties I won't claim any expertise. I can tell you a 9mm or 45 will be more effective in stopping someone in their tracks ON AVERAGE than a 25 ACP, but like you said if you hit them in the pinky versus the face make even more difference.

You've shot the AR/223 platform way more than me, and your life depends on it. I'd be Obama-esque to tell you which round works better in a given situation and honestly I think even for a given situation it's a very personal choice.

I tell people that all the time with pistol calibers. "What's the best caliber to carry?" or "whats the best carry gun?" are questions with no answers b/c it depends on the person. Does no good to have a great "stopping power" round from a rock solid reliable gun if you can't hit a barn with it. Does no good to have a gun you love but leave in the safe b/c it's hard to carry.

Shoot what you can shoot well and what works in the situation you're in, leave the math in the classroom. So we're 100% in agreement.

[BigBlue92]

Chuck you getting any 9mm wolf in?
Let me know about ccdw too for me and wife

Jeep, my wife and I are also interested and I PM´d Chuck. It would be awesome if we did a KSR ccdw class. Or just a blowing-stuff-up excursion.

Excellent thread, guys.

[Jeeepcat]

Jeep, my wife and I are also interested and I PM´d Chuck. It would be awesome if we did a KSR ccdw class. Or just a blowing-stuff-up excursion.

Excellent thread, guys.

Sounds like a plan!

[KeithKSR]

There is nothing wrong with the 5.56 mm/.223 caliber round. Now, it may not be as effective at distances over 300 meters/yards that everyone would like, but at that range and inside of that range it is more than adequate at incapacitating.

.223 is a very good round for the role it was designed to fill. You can carry a lot of rounds without the bulk of larger cartridges, relatively light recoil, decent range with a flatter trajectory. Hard to beat for urban warfare, jungle warfare, and terrain that forces most rifle fire to shorter distances.

[suncat05]

My basic load that I keep in my patrol car for emergencies is well over 400 rounds of 5.56mm. Plus another 60 rounds of .40 S&W caliber. Plus 18 rounds of 12 Gauge "00" buck. Plus several knives, assorted nylon multi-purpose straps, an NBC mask & suit, and other stuff that I can't tell you about.
I just wish I could carry more rounds........you can never, ever have enough bullets! My wife looked at me like I was crazy the first time I told her that......... :sSW_darthvader:

[Darrell KSR]

Jeep, my wife and I are also interested and I PM´d Chuck. It would be awesome if we did a KSR ccdw class. Or just a blowing-stuff-up excursion.

Excellent thread, guys.

Do it around a ballgame. Maybe I can make it, too. Would be fun.

Sent using Forum Runner. All typos excused.

[Darrell KSR]

an NBC mask & suit, and other stuff that I can't tell you about.


So you're the one responsible for the crappy network programming ;).

Seriously, the part that is cool is the "other stuff I can't tell you about." That's like Sheldon, but a different spin on "the big bang" theory. (If you don't watch, I wasted some finger swyping there.)

Sent using Forum Runner. All typos excused.

[suncat05]

CBBN-no offense taken, I knew we were both on the same channel, I think we were just taking different routes to the same objective. It's all good, my friend.

This goes back to another thread on another site(:sCo_huhsign:)where we were discussing how if the gun doesn't fit in your hand, then it's not going to be effective for you to have to use under a stressful situation. The caliber doesn't really matter all that much, what's important is whether the gun fits comfortably in your hand. If it fits your hand correctly, then you're most likely going to fare much better with it should you need to use it in defense of yourself, family, property, etc.
In the same vein, not everyone does well shooting a rifle or a shotgun(I know LOTS of cops that absolutely dread shooting a shotgun.........and no, I am NOT one of them!). Any range time is good training time, and that is the key for proper weapons handling.
We're on the same page, and we both see that there are different ways to get there. Now THAT is what I call diversity! :653:

[CitizenBBN]

assorted nylon multi-purpose straps, an NBC mask & suit, and other stuff that I can't tell you about.

Are we still talking about your cruiser or have we moved on to your rec room? :party0052:

[CitizenBBN]

CBBN-no offense taken, I knew we were both on the same channel, I think we were just taking different routes to the same objective. It's all good, my friend.

This goes back to another thread on another site(:sCo_huhsign:)where we were discussing how if the gun doesn't fit in your hand, then it's not going to be effective for you to have to use under a stressful situation. The caliber doesn't really matter all that much, what's important is whether the gun fits comfortably in your hand. If it fits your hand correctly, then you're most likely going to fare much better with it should you need to use it in defense of yourself, family, property, etc.
In the same vein, not everyone does well shooting a rifle or a shotgun(I know LOTS of cops that absolutely dread shooting a shotgun.........and no, I am NOT one of them!). Any range time is good training time, and that is the key for proper weapons handling.
We're on the same page, and we both see that there are different ways to get there. Now THAT is what I call diversity! :653:

:sHa_grouphug3:

Going to your comment about shooting what fits, got to shoot an Uzi last week at the range, semiauto version. Oh my, I have GOT to get me one of those. Never shot a gun so fluidly just picking it up.

I don't get to the range nearly enough. I find it very good mentally b/c you just take a complete break from work. You have to focus on what you're doing and follow safety procedures and concentrate on your shooting. It just takes me right out of all the other stuff running through my mind for that 30-60 minutes.

Almost everyone I know who goes to the range the first time enjoys it. I need to go more, or build a range. lol.

[dan_bgblue]

Lot of dissing going on about the 30-30. I take exception to that, so does my Marlin. You do not want to watch a round coming at you from less than 120 yards.

[bigsky]

I am okay with a .223 rifle barreled for proper varmint hunting, but they're all jury rigged to shoot the military ammo instead of some sweet reload. That's why I would buy a .22-250 or swift or even a .222 first, and have. The case itself is a good one, fitting in, powder capacity wise, between those alternatives.

I know everyone is out there buying up the AR clones, but a semi auto BAR in thirty caliber would be a good alternative, and if you could see them against the snow, you could stop them. Wolverines!

[CitizenBBN]

Truthfully Sky I'm not a big AR guy. Nothing wrong with them. I prefer the Soviet designs in general, and the BAR is absolutely the sweetest thing going. I just sold a first year Belgian production BAR at a sale. Thank goodness a couple of guys there knew just how special a gun we were selling.

[bigsky]

That was an amazing find for you and then the buyer.

[suncat05]

Lot of dissing going on about the 30-30. I take exception to that, so does my Marlin. You do not want to watch a round coming at you from less than 120 yards.

Nothing wrong with a .30-.30. Fine caliber, and a very good alternative to some of what we've been talking about here. Accurate out to a certain range, plenty of knockdown, very good for hunting something fairly big that can feed the family for a few days. Magazine capacity is good too, and once you've gotten the whole lever action thing, it's a fine weapon.

[BigBlue92]

Chuck, or anyone else on here, do you reload? I would love to learn to do that, before I invest in a bunch of equipment.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[KeithKSR]

Chuck, or anyone else on here, do you reload? I would love to learn to do that, before I invest in a bunch of equipment.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

I don't reload, but would expect people to begin to reload more if any kind of ammo restrictions are put in place.

[CitizenBBN]

Chuck, or anyone else on here, do you reload? I would love to learn to do that, before I invest in a bunch of equipment.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

I've reloaded shotgun, buddy of mine does it and I've done it with him when we've shot. Absurdly cheaper and reloading shotgun for just playing around is also crazy easy.

Reloading brass requires a bit more knowledge and care. The biggest thing is the casing and expansion/damage around the casing where the bullet is fit, or mouth. You have to inspect for damage and shape the mouth to accept the bullet. For choked down rounds you have to check head spacing.

For all rounds you have to remove the spent primer and replace it.

The good news is it's not like it's rocket science, and you can buy various levels of reloading press that will automate more of the process the more you spend. Single stage presses mean you do each stage one at a time with one lever pull. So you'll de-prime your cases one at a time, then re-prime them one at a time, etc. The bigger machines will do more than one thing at a time, and can also measure and add powder automatically.

It's not hard though. Right now I still find it better to buy ammo versus the time to reload, but it definitely saves money and it has the advantage of you being able to make your own loads. There's an endless amount of info on hand loads with different pressure and bullet weight. You can get into it big time.

I can get you all the Wolf ammo you can shoot. May be some delays and there will be a run on all ammo for now but I can tell you every plant is working 24/7 right now to crank it out. Oddly 22 LR is one of the toughest to get. So it's not like people are stocking up for all out war. May come a day when the anti-gun people have us down to 22s to defend ourselves but we're not there yet.

I'm more familiar with RCBS and Dillon presses, and Dillon's catalog I get always has a hot chick on the cover so they must be good. ;)

Thought about taking a class in it so I can help folks out more on the subject b/c I do get questions, but tough to find the time. I am going to try to get qualified to teach the NRA Basic Pistol course, lots of demand beyond the basic CCDW class to work on pistol shooting and technique. We cover the very basics in the CCDW class but people really want a full class on it. I don't pretend to be a career expert or combat veteran or competition winner but I've gotten to be a pretty good shot and you don't have to win Top Shot to know good grip form. To pass the tests to teach it you have to at least be pretty solid. No matter what people think of the NRA, their course instruction is outstanding and has good quality control.

[BigBlue92]

I've reloaded shotgun, buddy of mine does it and I've done it with him when we've shot. Absurdly cheaper and reloading shotgun for just playing around is also crazy easy.

Reloading brass requires a bit more knowledge and care. The biggest thing is the casing and expansion/damage around the casing where the bullet is fit, or mouth. You have to inspect for damage and shape the mouth to accept the bullet. For choked down rounds you have to check head spacing.

For all rounds you have to remove the spent primer and replace it.

The good news is it's not like it's rocket science, and you can buy various levels of reloading press that will automate more of the process the more you spend. Single stage presses mean you do each stage one at a time with one lever pull. So you'll de-prime your cases one at a time, then re-prime them one at a time, etc. The bigger machines will do more than one thing at a time, and can also measure and add powder automatically.

It's not hard though. Right now I still find it better to buy ammo versus the time to reload, but it definitely saves money and it has the advantage of you being able to make your own loads. There's an endless amount of info on hand loads with different pressure and bullet weight. You can get into it big time.

I can get you all the Wolf ammo you can shoot. May be some delays and there will be a run on all ammo for now but I can tell you every plant is working 24/7 right now to crank it out. Oddly 22 LR is one of the toughest to get. So it's not like people are stocking up for all out war. May come a day when the anti-gun people have us down to 22s to defend ourselves but we're not there yet.

I'm more familiar with RCBS and Dillon presses, and Dillon's catalog I get always has a hot chick on the cover so they must be good. ;)

Thought about taking a class in it so I can help folks out more on the subject b/c I do get questions, but tough to find the time. I am going to try to get qualified to teach the NRA Basic Pistol course, lots of demand beyond the basic CCDW class to work on pistol shooting and technique. We cover the very basics in the CCDW class but people really want a full class on it. I don't pretend to be a career expert or combat veteran or competition winner but I've gotten to be a pretty good shot and you don't have to win Top Shot to know good grip form. To pass the tests to teach it you have to at least be pretty solid. No matter what people think of the NRA, their course instruction is outstanding and has good quality control.


I have studied it some, but even so don't feel comfortable without hands-on instruction. I have looked at the Dillon 550B progressive press.

Never shot any Wolf. I shoot Federal Gold Medal Match in 168g in the rifle, but for the 45 A C P I may take you up on the Wolf.

[suncat05]

Nothing wrong with Wolf ammo, aside from it being very dirty, thereby making your weapon a bit harder to clean after shooting.

[KeithKSR]

Nothing wrong with Wolf ammo, aside from it being very dirty, thereby making your weapon a bit harder to clean after shooting.

My SKS will eat Wolf ammo like candy. I don't use it in anything else. I used to get it for a couple of bucks a box, the last I bought was nearly $6, and it is likely higher now.

[CitizenBBN]

Nothing wrong with Wolf ammo, aside from it being very dirty, thereby making your weapon a bit harder to clean after shooting.

Dirtier than some of the US stuff for sure, but the reliability is great and it's not as dirty as the other import stuff like TulAmmo or Bear. I went with them b/c I want great reliability and after that it was a good tradeoff for cost to be dirtier but not like the Tul.

They've gotten into the higher end stuff with their Gold line but I haven't shot it yet. Trying to get some. It's brass case, not steel. The Polyformance is a coated steel, then the original stuff they call their "Military" is the dirtiest. I stick to Polyformance, trying to see if the Gold is even better. Have a feeling its coming from a US manufacturer and being branded Wolf but not sure yet.

Russian/Chinese stuff definitely loves it. No surprise, they were designed for each other. One of the main reasons I like the SKS/AK approach over the AR, not finicky about dirt from any source be it ammo or just burying it in the back yard.