No, there's no deep state

[CitizenBBN]

“[Trump’s] not ever going to become president, right? Right?!” Page texted Strzok.
“No. No he won’t. We’ll stop it,” Strzok responded.

Reminder, Strzok was in charge of the Hillary email investigation and was one of the first people put on the Mueller team, and was only removed after all of this became public.

IMO even more damning, the first text was released by DOJ/FBI to Congress, but the SECOND text, the reply, was NOT released to Congressional oversight and was redacted by the DOJ/FBI.

So not only did he say the FBI would stop a Trump Presidency, the CURRENT DOJ/FBI authorities decided to not disclose that to the lawful elected oversight to which they are supposed to answer.

But this isn't political. Oh no. It's all OK, now eat your Solient Green and shut up.

[KeithKSR]

Timing is key here too. Those texts came about the same time the FBI was placing a spy to try to entrap low level Trump campaign workers.

[CitizenBBN]

I'm honestly more concerned this wasn't disclosed to Congress. It was all requested, and we know they redacted information as mundane as the price of a conference table, so we know DOJ and FBI aren't answering to Congress honestly. We know they dont' think they answer to the PResident (any President since Nixon) either, so just who the hell do they answer to that was actually elected by The People?

Apparently no one. Rosenstein and the others clearly think they are appointed and that's that, they are the determiners of right and wrong and are above answering to the political "whim" of the actual citizens of this nation.

We have people with unlimited budgets, vast police powers, who answer to no one. I'm pretty sure we should all be worried, whether we think they have good intentions or not. The very structure is anti-American and unconstitutional and will only lead to the kind of corruption we see with at least these specific people, but also to the hubris of Comey taking matters into his own hands, etc.

[suncat05]

We are never going to get the entire truth, good or bad.
This report should have been presented as written in the final draft, WITHOUT all of the players and their damn lawyers being involved.
I am very dismayed by all of this. This report, as presented, just makes all of this even worse, and from what I've seen, it's nowhere close to being the entire truth.
I was afraid that this report was going to be "whitewashed" and "sanitized" , and my fears have been realized.

[CitizenBBN]

suncat, it is important to note the FBI had strong influence on reviewing this, and these are the same people who redacted information about a $70,000 conference table on the grounds it was a national security issue. Clearly the FBI thinks anything that embarrasses them is a matter of national security, and honestly that's probably not far from the truth. They think their image is so very important to the nation it must be protected.

I don't know if you can get much more crafted than this:

The report stated that investigators "did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that improper considerations, including political bias, directly affected [the Clinton email investigation]," but added that “we were concerned about text messages exchanged by FBI Deputy Assistant Director Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, Special Counsel to the Deputy Director, that potentially indicated or created the appearance that investigative decisions were impacted by bias or improper considerations.”

So there's no "evidence" political bias affected the investigation, but then there's this evidence that "potentially indicated" they were affected by political bias. WHAT????Essentially the report says both, that there was no "evidence" of political bias, other than this evidence in these texts of such potential bias. Very well crafted to get some of that evidence out there but without actually admitting there is evidence of political bias. Tough to do both at the same time, but that's what this does.

[CitizenBBN]

IMO what that really says, and I'm sure the FBI and DOJ had a lot of influence in this part, is that the OIG coulnd't find "documentary evidence" or "testimonial evidence" of bias.

That is to say, they didn't find an email or get a statement that said "hey, we need to make sure and go easy on this interview" or "we need to give Abedin immunity" to "protect Hillary and make sure she can win this election." Well duh! No, I would hope they weren't dumb enough to put actual admissions of their bias into department recorded emails.

These texts between page and Strzok were uncovered, but how many more conversations happened with nothing on the record, or on encrypted non FBI devices? OIG has no power to subpoena FBI agent's personal phones or records, so we don't know.

So it says the obvious in the end: there was no smoking gun email laying around or some drawn up formal written down plan to execute, but the Strozk emails show there was at least an obvious potential for such bias to have existed. OIG just coudln't find "documentary or testimonal" evidence of it. There were no emails and no one talked, but if that's the standard for "so there was no crime" the mafia in this country should be on easy street.

[CitizenBBN]

BTW, I'm not sure Comey was politically motivated. Strozk obviously was, and I'm sure others, but Comey may just be an incompetent idiot. B/c he managed to tick off just about everyone on both sides of the aisle and in fact both sides are roasting him with this report with equal fervor.

but Strozk is obvious, and he ran the Hillary investigation. ANd if these texts hadn't been found he'd still be a very senior player on the Mueller team. A team where the vast majority of members have actually been donors to Democratic campaigns.

[suncat05]

Now we hear that 5 FBI employees are going to be referred for possible criminal investigations.
Just as I said before, some low level employees are going to be offered up as sacrificial lambs on the altar of so-called justice while the real criminals are going to skate with no repercussions.
And just like I told you guys before, you cannot trust these azzholes to police themselves, because they won't.
This entire situation is a farce.

[KeithKSR]

IMO what that really says, and I'm sure the FBI and DOJ had a lot of influence in this part, is that the OIG coulnd't find "documentary evidence" or "testimonial evidence" of bias.

That is to say, they didn't find an email or get a statement that said "hey, we need to make sure and go easy on this interview" or "we need to give Abedin immunity" to "protect Hillary and make sure she can win this election." Well duh! No, I would hope they weren't dumb enough to put actual admissions of their bias into department recorded emails.

These texts between page and Strzok were uncovered, but how many more conversations happened with nothing on the record, or on encrypted non FBI devices? OIG has no power to subpoena FBI agent's personal phones or records, so we don't know.

So it says the obvious in the end: there was no smoking gun email laying around or some drawn up formal written down plan to execute, but the Strozk emails show there was at least an obvious potential for such bias to have existed. OIG just coudln't find "documentary or testimonal" evidence of it. There were no emails and no one talked, but if that's the standard for "so there was no crime" the mafia in this country should be on easy street.

Interpretation, the IG felt that political bias was a factor, but could find no direct evidence. On the other hand, the Strzok texts indicate there was bias in the Trump case.

[Doc]

I prefer Soylent yellow since Im a vegan.

That basically encompasses the level of interest and faith I have in the Meuller investigation. The farse that it was about Russian interference in our election when in reality it was a effort to go after Trump is one thing but then add the relative ignoring of a MAJOR national security breach by the Secnof State, something far more serious, only highlights the selectivity, and the length and side branches....Ive lost all interest

[bigsky]

National politics are corrupt. State politics are corrupt. In what situation would thinking people trust members of two parties who have deiven this country 21 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT?????!!!!

Hillary Clinton vs Donald Trump. It’s not funny; it’s like our country crapping the bed and ignoring that we’ve lost control of our body functions.

[kingcat]

no matter what the report had contained the reaction would be the same imo. The odds weigh heavy that the report is spot on and the rest is just covenient and expected spin.

These five members of the so called “deep state” had an opinion. That does not preclude them doing their job thoroughly. The fact is that the Republican Party controls most every facet of govt and if there is anything there they would find it. So maybe most of it it was fake news all along presented as alternate facts

[bigsky]

Feeling free to have your “get Trump” opinions part of your official publicly discoverable FBI email chain is sufficient competent evidence of allowed and approved bias, in my opinion.

[kingcat]

Feeling free to have your “get Trump” opinions part of your official publicly discoverable FBI email chain is sufficient competent evidence of allowed and approved bias, in my opinion.

Approved is a reach. And it somewhat depends on if they are referring to facts not yet made public.
Maybe you will agree with their opinion, if not how it was expressed, at some point. :trink39:

[CitizenBBN]

The fact is that the Republican Party controls most every facet of govt and if there is anything there they would find it. So maybe most of it it was fake news all along presented as alternate facts

You really think the GOP controls the government? 98% of government employees are Democrats, and yet in 500 days they are all packed up and gone or loyally doing as ordered by the new administration. Sure.

Saying they have an "opinion" is about as tepid a description as you could have used. Saying "we'll stop it" (a Trump presidency) is a long way past simple opinion. That's not opinion. "Insurance plans" aren't opinions.

Their "opinion" of trump is clearly as negative or more than yours an History's. Can they do their job? Sure, and I'm sure some or many did, but clearly some felt they were in the position to save or destroy "the Republic". They, like you, really think Trump as President is the end of America. that's a very strong view to have and then get objectivity.

That doesn't even touch on the texts relating to them investigating someone they thought would be their next boss.

It put them in a very difficult situation, and if there were no suspicious activities then that's OK too. but the OIG report specifically calls out several odd decisions. First, FBI never tried to get emails from the devices of Clinton's key staff, and even the IG says their explanation wasn't satisfactory. They also lacked much of a reason as to why her staff was given immunity, and why two potential witnesses were allowed to sit in on her interview.

If you read the report details it's clear he couldn't PROVE bias, but he strongly suspects it.

But forget all that. How about the fact that the FBI didn't disclose some of those key texts to the Congressional oversight committees? That on its face is a failure of the FBI to conform to the laws of the land. Congress has a right and obligation to review that information, and clearly it was redacted not b/c of national security or sources but b/c it made the FBI look bad.

They knew the "we'll stop it" text would be a firestorm, so they didn't let Congress see it. At the same time they don't think they answer to the White House either.

Doesn't it concern you that a large bureaucracy with nearly unlimited powers of prosecution doesn't think it has to be accountable to anyone?

THAT is the deep state. YEs currently there's a lot of Anti-Trump in it, but when Trump is gone the DOJ/FBI will still be here, and will still think they are above answering to the elected representatives of The People.

that's the definition of a deep state. So no, I think this IG report shows glaringly that these "alternative facts" are deadly accurate facts. The DOJ and FBI are intentionally trying to circumvent oversight by any of the three branches of government, hiding everything from these embarrassing and questionable texts to what they spent on a conference table. If they're willing to violate the law to hide this stuff, what else are they hiding?

Take off the Trump glasses and look at the bigger issue here. This is only about trump for the next 3 to 7 years, but the real issue is our government has been hijacked by people who answer to no one. the fact that they politically happen to agree with you shouldn't be very comforting.

[Doc]

The fact is that the Republican Party controls most every facet of govt and if there is anything there they would find it. So maybe most of it it was fake news all along presented as alternate facts

Where did you ever get that idea? That is so far from accurate it's bizzare. Sure, there is a GOP as president and both houses of congress are GOP controlled but the grass roots of the government is staffed by democrats. Anybody who works in the government will verify that. My wife monitors what I post on facebook because of the people at her government job. I have had to remove or been forbidden to post certain images based on who she works with since they don't hold the DEMOCRAT line of thinking and she does not want to deal with the aftermath.

[CitizenBBN]

Here's a perspective of a former FBI agent:

It was the hope of many of my current and former colleagues in the FBI that Inspector General Horowitz would be courageous enough to unmask Comey and his inner circle for what they were – rogue officials who played by their own rules, leaked with impunity and allowed their personal political biases to impact one of the most important investigations the FBI has ever conducted.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/06/15/former-fbi-official-ig-report-is-wrong-fbi-officials-were-politically-biased-against-trump.html

The article does a good job hitting on some of the real issues in the IG report that are getting glossed over. here's one that should raise real concerns:

Charts included in the report depict over 300 phone calls to five separate reporters from FBI employees. These employees accepted gifts of every description, including meals, drinks, sports tickets and golf outings.

If you're out there leaking to reporters, the only reason to do so is to have an influence outside of the investigation, i.e. a political impact. We're not talking 1-2 calls to maybe clarify something that's gone rampant with speculation but us untrue, but 100s of calls with multiple actors getting chummy with reporters.

That's not "having an opinion". That's having an opinion and taking action in violation of FBI procedures and rules in order to act on that opinion. They were willing to break those rules for their opinions, what other rules got bent or broken? What other information have they not shared with Congressional oversight?

This whole thing stinks bad. There are just too many "questionable" calls in the investigations, too many people with near rage in their attitudes about Trump, too many people who thought Hillary would be their boss, too many leaks, etc.

And it stinks bad well beyond Trump. Trump will pass and fade into history just like Obama. What will not fade is this post Nixonian notion that the DOJ and FBI are somehow independent agencies answerable to no elected or judicial authority, and they seem to be jointed by our intelligence apparatus as well.

That should be scaring the hell out of people on both sides of the Trump debate, b/c there's your real threat to the nation's future.

[kingcat]

What scares me is the fact that there is guilt and admitted guilt on a federal level relative to our national security and Trump supporters are angry that the investigation is moving forward.

That is unprecedented, and dangerous because this is not a biased investigation and everyone
(deep inside) knows it. The"possible" results are what angers Trump supporters.
Because, no matter what lengths some in this administration might have gone to does not matter because, for most, the results are worth any cost.

Mr. Mueller is and has been the right man for the job. I think he is "untouchable"..a modern day Elliot Ness. :)

That is how history will read if my strong conservative friends cant find some rational and tangible bias..and so some are grasping at any straw that can be, or has been manufactured by the current government..

This investigation will finish and some will be prosecuted. even for what amounts to treason as it should be.. We all hope that the President is not involved directly in any malfeasance.
The truth will win out in the end whatever that may end up being

But I want to know for sure..and I'd hope everyone would say that.

Regardless, the guilty will pay and I know my friends are happy about that part of things, surely

[CitizenBBN]

What scares me is the fact that there is guilt and admitted guilt on a federal level relative to our national security and Trump supporters are angry that the investigation is moving forward.

I'd love for that investigation to move forward. Are they finally going after Hillary again? I hadn't heard.

What guilt are you referring to that is admitted?

And no, the guilty won't pay. that much seems clear so far.

And as for means justifying the ends, that's the Left's specialty. Did Trump smash phones and delete emails under federal subpoena?

If Trump or whoever is guilty fine, but I want equality before the law more than I want any law selectively enforced. don't bust one guy for pot while you let another go free. either they both get busted or both walk.

What I see is a spectacularly unequal enforcement of the laws, one being made into an extreme stretch just to get any shred of a crime, and the other a cavalcade of crimes going untouched. Mueller has charged Manfort with witness tampering. OK, then what is the FBI letting key witnesses sit in on Hillary's interview? What is it when they destroy a number of devices under subpeona and destroy records? Isn't that evidence tampering on the same scale? Why is Huma Abedin not under the same scrutiny as Manafort? I'm all for BOTH of them being investigated, but not just one when the other with the same questions walks free.

Equality before the law is far more important than the actual laws on the books, b/c one is a banana republic farce and one is the rule of law applying to all the people.

I don't care about the individual outcome. As I said Trump will be history in time no matter what Mueller does. That's a given of our system. I do care that our central goverment in Washington clearly is operating without a leash to the People of this country.

I could make the same claim with you you make with me, that you are only all for Mueller and this bureaucrat run process b/c you happen to like the current target. If this were a bunch of conservatives with conservative opinions all out there after Obama you might be singing a different tune.

Me, I care about the lack of oversight with an agency that since Nixon apparently thinks it answers to no one. That's the "deep state", and regardless of target it is alive and well.

[kingcat]

I could make the same claim with you you make with me, that you are only all for Mueller and this bureaucrat run process b/c you happen to like the current target. If this were a bunch of conservatives with conservative opinions all out there after Obama you might be singing a different tune.


Not if patriotism and loyalty to this country are at stake.

If anyone has accepted the illegal support of Putin and Russia reelated to our election process, they should be tried and convicted of treason. That goes for Obama, Trump, or Hillary..and their subordinates
And anyone who prefers outside interference by our enemies to the democratic process representing the citizens of this nation, they should historically be considered treasonous also.

But if and when charges might be brought against those you mention I will not take the stand that you are.
The reason there are no such charges is not that the poor republican party is too weak to act in light of the "deep state" boogie man.......it's that there is no adequate proof to bring such charges. Only innuendo and political spin which Mueller is sifting through to get at the truth in this instance.
Nothing there? Then nothing to fear.

I love you man. But you are 100% wrong here I truly believe.

Perhaps as wrong as I have ever seen you.. ;)

Not because you believe Trump has been treated unfairly or is innocent, but because you do not care to know the truth or pursue justice. Instead implying there is no justice to be had under the laws of the United States of America.


Gotta' run for a few hours

[Catonahottinroof]

I think the justice problem you run into in this situation is the the justice pursued or meted out now has a political component to it that cannot be missed by an unbiased opinion. That is not really justice, is it? It borders on deep anarchy for a better choice of words than deep state. There is a level of law breaking done by a few who wield political power that will never see justice in any form, while anyone who is not part of that political apparatus is crucified for a similar action. That’s not just a figment of my imagination, as there are cases that point this out directly and indirectly.
This situation with Trump is becoming more and more like Whitewater every day. Nothing that came along in Whitewater could be found to hang Clinton up on, and this will be the same thing.
If a charge ends up coming to fruition, it won’t have diddly to do with Russian influence or attempts at swinging the election. It will be something far different, for political purposes just as Clinton’s was.


Not if patriotism and loyalty to this country are at stake.

If anyone has accepted the illegal support of Putin and Russia reelated to our election process, they should be tried and convicted of treason. That goes for Obama, Trump, or Hillary..and their subordinates
And anyone who prefers outside interference by our enemies to the democratic process representing the citizens of this nation, they should historically be considered treasonous also.

But if and when charges might be brought against those you mention I will not take the stand that you are.
The reason there are no such charges is not that the poor republican party is too weak to act in light of the "deep state" boogie man.......it's that there is no adequate proof to bring such charges. Only innuendo and political spin which Mueller is sifting through to get at the truth in this instance.
Nothing there? Then nothing to fear.

I love you man. But you are 100% wrong here I truly believe.

Perhaps as wrong as I have ever seen you.. ;)

Not because you believe Trump has been treated unfairly or is innocent, but because you do not care to know the truth or pursue justice. Instead implying there is no justice to be had under the laws of the United States of America.


Gotta' run for a few hours

[CitizenBBN]

Not because you believe Trump has been treated unfairly or is innocent, but because you do not care to know the truth or pursue justice. Instead implying there is no justice to be had under the laws of the United States of America.


Gotta' run for a few hours

Don't presume that I don't want justice. I just know the difference between the pursuit of justice an the arbitrary application of laws for gain.

If this investigation were going after what you listed, what you think it is about, I'd be all for it. But then it would be going after the cash payments to Bill when hillary was secretary of state from a bank run by Putin's financial empire. It would be pressuring Podesta and his brother just as hard as it is Manfort. It would be squeezing Huma Abedin about her emails implying pay for play as hard as it is squeezing Cohen.

If that were happening then great, we have a real investigation into wrong doing and foreign influence and maybe we can clean some things up.

But what we have here is politics, and I'm not naive enough to think that's rain coming down my back.

As for charges being the only proof of wrong doing, Al Capone was convicted of tax evasion. They couldn't pin a single murder on him, or even illegal booze. in the end at this level who is convicted often has little to do with who is wrong, just who is more powerful.

I'm not defending Trump in this if you notice. Or Manafort, etc. Never have, not once.

What I have observed is that the laws are being applied in a very biased way. It doesn't mean Trump is innocent of anything, but I am old enough to know that a) everyone is guilty of something if you look hard enough, and b) who gets prosecuted in this country at this level has very little to do with who did the most wrong.

[CitizenBBN]

In the end, Washington DC doesn't want its sleazy underbelly put out there for the people to see. No way. Foreign influence? corruption? DC is up to its eyeballs in it.

Everyone in DC is tied to someone with foreign influence. The Clinton's are up to their eyeballs in it, but they all are drinking from that trough.

As much as you don't see it, I'm not pro Trump. I'm Anti-Washington. You see a pursuit of justice, IMO b/c you were convinced by "your side" he was all these evil things long ago, but I see a struggle for political power.

I guarantee you, with the money and power involved, I'm right. This was never about justice, any more than it was with Clinton. Follow the money. It's always about money and power.

Only us simple folk out here in the wasteland believe in things like justice.

[bigsky]

Patriotism would dictate revolution. I have wanted it peacefully: balanced budget amendment, sunset of washington bureaucracies, limited powers in exec and legislative federal govt, roll back of military excess, stronger individual rights protections, protection of private property.

[badrose]

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/fbi-agent-who-questioned-hillary-email-probe-called-her-president-4

[badrose]

Patriotism would dictate revolution. I have wanted it peacefully: balanced budget amendment, sunset of washington bureaucracies, limited powers in exec and legislative federal govt, roll back of military excess, stronger individual rights protections, protection of private property.

:sHa_clap2: :rockon:

[CitizenBBN]

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/fbi-agent-who-questioned-hillary-email-probe-called-her-president-4

Good find.

Let me ask it this way. If UK and UL were being investigated by the NCAA, by the same team, and it was found that the senior people on the team were all lifelong UL fans and we had multiple, nah dozens and dozens, of texts between them all hoping for UK's ruination and UL to win the title, and when one of them said "UK won't win the title this year will they???" the other response "no, we won't let them."

Then that team announces that UL had done no wrong and UK was recommended the death penalty, would those defending these FBI/DOJ actors defend them as just having "opinions" that didn't necessarily bias their work?

[CitizenBBN]

Think we're against the way this investigation is being run b/c we're just biased? Clearly so, that's stated above pretty clearly.

How about if we're citing sources and statements I cite Alan Dershowitz, lifelong liberal Democrat and one of the leading civil rights authorities and scholars in American history:

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/06/16/paul-manafort-jailed-ahead-trial-alan-dershowitz-calls-decision-obnoxious-constitution

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/alan-dershowitz-maybe-robert-mueller-should-be-investigated

From the Washington Examiner piece it's clear there are real questions about Mueller's tactics and ethics as an investigator, and he's not alone on his team. Yet, as Dershowitz says:

But these “Get Trump At Any Cost” partisans have rejected my call for an investigation, out of fear that it may turn up information that might tarnish the image of the special counsel who is investigating Trump. Instead they criticize those of us who point out Mueller was “at the center” of the Justice Department and FBI while this miscarriage of justice occurred. All civil libertarians should want the truth about this sordid episode, and Mueller’s possible role in it, regardless of its impact, if any, on the Trump investigation. Mueller should welcome an objective investigation, which might eliminate any doubt about his role in this travesty. But too many former civil libertarians are prepared to sacrifice civil liberties and the quest for truth on the altar of “Get Trump.”

So if we're weighing sources, John McCain, war hero and man censured by the Senate for the unethical use of his office for a donor, thinks this is all dandy. Alan Dershowitz, the nation's leading civil libertarian and a man who disagrees with nearly every single policy position Trump has taken, thinks this is highly questionable and those questions are being ignored b/c of people's blind hate of Trump.

[kingcat]

More equivalent to finding a racist couple of cops in a large city and then claiming the whole department is crooked.
And then refusing to agree with the department investigating a potential major crime because the minority is involved.

[CitizenBBN]

More equivalent to finding a racist couple of cops in a large city and then claiming the whole department is crooked.
And then refusing to agree with the department investigating a potential major crime because the minority is involved.

Not even close. First where have I or anyone indicted the entire FBI or DOJ? I think they are operating without oversight b/c the senior people wont' comply, but that's a failed analogy.

Second, what if those cops found using the N-word in texts, and their close long time associates, were the ones put in charge of the investigation of racism in the department? What if they were the ones investigating the black mayor on charges?

That's the analogy. We have proof of bias with multiple people working these investigations. Dershowitz himself has questioned Mueller as a prosecutor and FBI director, and his 2nd in command has been found to have commited various levels of prosecutorial misconduct more than once by a judge.

Your direction is sound, but if you get apples to apples you only end up making my case. No people or city or federal authority would accept an investigation into racial issues if the senior people were found having racist views. it would be thrown out, those people disciplined, and a new one started.

I have no doubt a lot of the FBI people are good hard working law enforcement officers, and in fact there are multiple statements by several former FBI people calling out Comey and Mueller and others b/c they feel these political people at the top have damaged the FBI.

Go talk to cops in big cities. They'll tell you that the chiefs and senior people are all politicians, that's how they got there. Most are appointed by mayors, they have to play the game. They aren't like the front line guys trying to just enforce the law and protect people and bust bad guys.

Same thing here. It's not the rank and file people in Washington who are the problem. It's the career political types who rise to those top levels who are the issue. Those people are as corrupt as anyone.

[badrose]

Have elected officials seen anything yet? If not, that should tell us something.

[kingcat]

Mueller is one of the good guys. There is bipartisan support for that.

That said, there is an obvious case for obstruction,, no there is obvious obstruction of justice by the administration currently in progress. This is a huge political game i agree but it’s one where the President with the support of his base is obstructing Justice to a degree previously unheard of. The excuse has changed over time and now has turned to attack a man who no one, besides the president, can actually find fault in, The accusations are unfounded or else he would have been history weeks back.

He will finish the investigations and we can only hope that the actions, which seem to point to some level of guilt , show no knowledge of malfeasance regarding the investigation by the president himself. The obstruction issue has been resolved unless Mr Mueller can be dismissed in some way. If he is fired the president will face impeachment. It’s that simple

Sorry about my typing I can’t phone typevery well

[CitizenBBN]

Mueller is one of the good guys. There is bipartisan support for that.

That said, there is an obvious case for obstruction,, no there is obvious obstruction of justice by the administration currently in progress. This is a huge political game i agree but it’s one where the President with the support of hias base is obstructing Justice to a degree previously unheard of. The excuse has changed over time and now has turned to attack a man who no one, besides the president, can actually find fault in, The accusations are unfounded or else he would have been history weeks back.

He will finish the investigations and we can only hope that the actions, which seem to point to some level of guilt , show no knowledge of malfeasance regarding the investigation by the president himself. The obstruction issue has been resolved unless Mr Mueller can be dismissed in some way. If he is fired the president will face impeachment. It’s that simple

Sorry about my typing I can’t phone typevery well

I disagree Mueller is one of the good guys. I disagree there is bi-partisan support for it (as you have picked Democrats and the old guard GOP that most of us in the GOP want to run out of office).

I disagree there is anything so far that even whiffs of obstruction of justice, and so far it's not even close to any number of historical cases of it I can mention, including many that were never even considered an issue.

Other than that we're in complete agreement. I think this is starting to get us someplace. :) :653:

[CitizenBBN]

Have elected officials seen anything yet? If not, that should tell us something.

When the FBI is redacting information about a $70,000 conference table from Congress, and such redactions only should occur for purposes of protecting "sources and methods" of investigations and national security, it's beyond obvious our elected officials are being kept in the dark like mushrooms by the FBI and DOJ senior staff.

[kingcat]

If you are right, you unequivocally fire Mueller then. To allow it is the same as condoning it and you are then complicit. He has that authority.

And surely the GOP congress will vote to protect their party's leader.
So why the inaction?

As an aside, I miss Brian and Darrell chiming in on the legal implications of situations such as this as they once did.

[Doc]

More equivalent to finding a racist couple of cops in a large city and then claiming the whole department is crooked.
And then refusing to agree with the department investigating a potential major crime because the minority is involved.
OJ Simpson was found not.guilty in large part because mark.Furman was shown to be a racist. You're talking about the people heading the investigation, not just "some people in the departmant"

[kingcat]

Then you fire them and show proof to the American people and congress. Simple.

The difference is that the President has that power and the means to present the truth...and the obligation

[bigsky]

Who was the last american President truth teller? Eisenhower?

Eisenhower. In case you’re counting, he left office practically 60 years ago.

Bread and circuses fellas.

[KeithKSR]

If you are right, you unequivocally fire Mueller then. To allow it is the same as condoning it and you are then complicit. He has that authority.

And surely the GOP congress will vote to protect their party's leader.
So why the inaction?

As an aside, I miss Brian and Darrell chiming in on the legal implications of situations such as this as they once did.


Mueller should never have been put in place. Think about it. Rosenstein recommends the Comey firing, Comey is fired. Then Rosenstein appoints Mueller because Comey is fired.

You cannot have obstruction of justice without a requisite criminal act to be covered up. Let’s pretend collusion took place. Collusion isn’t an illegal act, therefore you cannot have obstruction of justice.

In regards to Mueller. The guy has no interest in crime, just convictions. He modus operandi has always been grill people until there is something said that someone else contradicts and then nail them with lying to a federal agent. He then lawyers them into submission by upcharging and forcing them to spend every penny they can scrape up for a legal defense through copious subpoenas, and every conceivable allegation he can come up with. Once he breaks them financially he then starts to threaten their family members with similar treatment. Finally, he tells them a guilty plea to lying to a federal agent and minimal jail time will make it all go away. Broken and broke the defendant acquiesces.

That’s what he did to Martha Stewart, that is what he did to Flynn. However, in the Flynn case info came out that the agents interviewing Flynn didn’t think he lied to them and the judge is now telling Mueller to slow his roll. It is a very big no-no for Mueller, as an officer of the court, to allow a defendant to plead guilty to a crime that Mueller knows was not committed; although this has received little media play.

Interestingly, Peter Strzok is the FBI agent who interviewed Flynn and did not feel Flynn lied during the interview. https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/michael-flynn-guilty-plea-questions-raised-about-fbi-robert-mueller-investigation/

[KeithKSR]

Then you fire them and show proof to the American people and congress. Simple.

The difference is that the President has that power and the means to present the truth...and the obligation

There is where you are wrong. While the President has the legal authority to release everything we have a DOJ that doesn’t feel it answers to anyone, which is why they are obstructing release of information.

[kingcat]

https://www.lawfareblog.com/terrible-arguments-against-constitutionality-mueller-investigation

[kingcat]

http://time.com/time-person-of-the-year-2017-robert-mueller-runner-up/

"For all the focus on Trump and his inner circle, the Russia investigation is about something bigger than the conduct or outcome of the presidential campaign. The U.S. intelligence community concluded, and still believes, that the primary goal of the Russian operation was to undermine faith in American democracy at home and abroad. Mueller is America’s answer to that challenge, the personification of the idea that rule of law remains paramount—even, or especially, when it touches our core democratic processes and our most powerful government officials"


I believe this and only his dispensing of facts and any conclusion or decisions the courts and or Congress makes matter.
I do not live in a country governed by a party, a man, or innuendo and fake news.
But by the rule of law.

This is too important of a matter to sweep under the rug.. It is an investigation of an attack on the United States of America.
An act of war as real as any in our history.
And I know where my allegiance lies.

And despite what many think, I do not want innocent people hurt. And I am certain no one investigating does either.
But there have been now, eleven confirmed contacts with our enemy by those in the president's campaign relative to helping Donald Trump.

Mueller needs to clear that up for me. And I would think everyone should want to know for certain.

Because no matter the argument at this point, you do not. (Not you personally Keith, but everyone)

[Catonahottinroof]

Fixed it for ya..
Monkeys and circuses fellas.

[kingcat]

But we know that freedom cannot be served by the devices of the tyrant. As it is an ancient truth that freedom cannot be legislated into existence, so it is no less obvious that freedom cannot be censored into existence. And any who act as if freedoms defenses are to be found in suppression and suspicion and fear confess a doctrine that is alien to America.

And relative to the severity of any foreign attack on our voting system

Our American heritage is threatened as much by our own indifference as it is by the most unscrupulous office or by the most powerful foreign threat. The future of this republic is in the hands of the American voter.

..Dwight D. Eisenhower

[kingcat]

The rule of law does more than ensure freedom from high-handed action by rulers. It ensures justice between man and man however humble the one and however powerful the other. A man with five dollars in the bank can call to account the corporation with five billion dollars in assets-and the two will be heard as equals before the law

..Dwight D. Eisenhower.

[CitizenBBN]

11 confirmed contacts? OMG, run for the hills! lol

Don't you see that in modern Washington that's not even unusual? it's low by DNC/Clinton standards, who have had 100s of contacts and payments and everything else. while Hillary was SoS Bill wasn't just being in contact, he was in Moscow giving speeches for $500K. We have a memo from one of his chief runners talking about how he's gotten foreign powers to give MILLIONS to the Clintons in perks and speaking fees. And that's just the Clintons.

Context is what you are missing. Did Russia conspire to influence American politics and policy? yes. Do you think, seriously, this was the first election they did so? Do you think they only reached out to this outsider Trump and all those contacts with Hillary's people, like her campaign manager's brother, are all just innocent lunch dates?

if not, then why aren't the others being investigated? Why isn't Uranium One in his list of things to investigate, when we have a sequestered FBI witness saying the Russians were bragging about influencing Clinton at Sec to state?

If you want an investigation into Russia's impact on the US, and you really believe it's that serious of a threat, you should be more outraged than anyone on here about the conduct of the investigation to date. the fact that you aren't says you are only interested in investigating Trump b/c you have come into this with the assumptive belief that he is the one colluding with them and only him.

That's clearly not been the case, the power brokers in washington have clearly long been colluding with LOTS of foreign powers for a long time, but you only seem to care about this narrow band of investigation.

This is just creating sacrificial lambs to give the impression we have addressed this threat. That's what politicians do best, and you're swallowing their sales pitch. The truth is both parties are up to their armpits in questioanble contacts with all kinds of foreign powers, but if they hand everyone this outsider Trump then no one bothers to look under their skirts.

You'll see that as changing the subject, but again that's just being myopic. The truth is Washington was corrupt on this front long before Trump ever ran for office. You want to push back on Russian meddling? Great. Then get behind a REAL investigation and not this straw job.

[kingcat]

I've said all I can say. Before there are any results you have ruled it a straw job.
And so one can only conclude you do not care what the facts may eventually prove to be.
Only that you disagree with who is looking for them.

Personally I dont have to be right....only convinced. Much like the majority in Congress and of the American people, and the world.

Mr Mueller will help accomplish that. And if it requires further investigation doesn't matter..

And so it should be to an eventual mutual satisfaction.
But those danged alternate facts may prevent it for some.
:trink39:

Anyway, thanks to the forum for letting me speak up. Ive felt comfortable doing so.

[KeithKSR]

https://www.lawfareblog.com/terrible-arguments-against-constitutionality-mueller-investigation

The guy uses this to prove the Mueller appointment is lawful:
Title 28 U.S.C. § 546 provides that, until the Senate confirms a presidential nominee, U.S. attorney vacancies can be filled for up to 120 days by an appointment made by the attorney general and then indefinitely by local district courts

Let us assume that is correct usage of the code. Since Mueller has not been appointed by any local district court he was limited to 120 days, which has long since lapsed.

[KeithKSR]

http://time.com/time-person-of-the-year-2017-robert-mueller-runner-up/

"For all the focus on Trump and his inner circle, the Russia investigation is about something bigger than the conduct or outcome of the presidential campaign. The U.S. intelligence community concluded, and still believes, that the primary goal of the Russian operation was to undermine faith in American democracy at home and abroad. Mueller is America’s answer to that challenge, the personification of the idea that rule of law remains paramount—even, or especially, when it touches our core democratic processes and our most powerful government officials"


I believe this and only his dispensing of facts and any conclusion or decisions the courts and or Congress makes matter.
I do not live in a country governed by a party, a man, or innuendo and fake news.
But by the rule of law.

This is too important of a matter to sweep under the rug.. It is an investigation of an attack on the United States of America.
An act of war as real as any in our history.
And I know where my allegiance lies.

And despite what many think, I do not want innocent people hurt. And I am certain no one investigating does either.
But there have been now, eleven confirmed contacts with our enemy by those in the president's campaign relative to helping Donald Trump.

Mueller needs to clear that up for me. And I would think everyone should want to know for certain.

Because no matter the argument at this point, you do not. (Not you personally Keith, but everyone)

The problem is that the last thing being looked for here is that the undermining of our confidence in elections is not being examined in lieu of a witch hunt.

Dershowitz is correct that we needed no special counsel, and just needed a special Congressional committee to examine what could be done to prevent interference in future elections.

To date the only collusion found is that between Russian operative, Steele and the Hillary campaign to produce the dossier.

[kingcat]

We have no clue yet as to what Mueller might have. Therein lies the rub on the far right and the fear of testimony.

The I don't want to know attitude is very disheartening.

[KeithKSR]

We have no clue yet as to what Mueller might have. Therein lies the rub on the far right and the fear of testimony.

If Mueller had anything he would hand down meaningful indictments.

[kingcat]

If Mueller had anything he would hand down meaningful indictments.

Then there is no cause for concern. It will be exposed as a farce and everyone will go home happy.

I'll be happy myself knowing democracy endures and the republic is safe.

And id like to point out the majority of meaningful opinions is not only that of the far right. About three out of ten who consider themselves conservatives agree with me.

Because of that, my friends here discard them as as "not really republicans" That is a shame imho.
And it's the reason some of our good friends here who ARE Republican no longer frequent this forum.

Anyway Im on an island here. So I'll back out.

[Catonahottinroof]

I agree with that. The longer it drags out the less credibility he has, just as with Ken Starr.

If Mueller had anything he would hand down meaningful indictments.

[kingcat]

That "witch hunt" lasted several years

[KeithKSR]

That "witch hunt" lasted several years

That witch hunt should not have exceeded the boundaries of its original task, and neither should this one. The problem with these prosecutors is that they are determined to find something to justify the huge expense.

[Doc]

Who was the last american President truth teller? Eisenhower?

Eisenhower. In case you’re counting, he left office practically 60 years ago.

Bread and circuses fellas.

George Washington..he did in fact chop down the cherry tree

[Doc]

Then you fire them and show proof to the American people and congress. Simple.

The difference is that the President has that power and the means to present the truth...and the obligation

So you think Trump should fire Mueller? Please, a democrats wet dream. They tried to crucify Trump for firing Comey, a guy the left wanted fired months previously, an incompetent nob who was leaking more infomation to the press than he was keeping private. The left would claim firing Meuller was collusion and a cover up because he found something.

[Doc]

http://time.com/time-person-of-the-year-2017-robert-mueller-runner-up/

"For all the focus on Trump and his inner circle, the Russia investigation is about something bigger than the conduct or outcome of the presidential campaign. The U.S. intelligence community concluded, and still believes, that the primary goal of the Russian operation was to undermine faith in American democracy at home and abroad. Mueller is America’s answer to that challenge, the personification of the idea that rule of law remains paramount—even, or especially, when it touches our core democratic processes and our most powerful government officials"


I believe this and only his dispensing of facts and any conclusion or decisions the courts and or Congress makes matter.
I do not live in a country governed by a party, a man, or innuendo and fake news.
But by the rule of law.

This is too important of a matter to sweep under the rug.. It is an investigation of an attack on the United States of America.
An act of war as real as any in our history.
And I know where my allegiance lies.

And despite what many think, I do not want innocent people hurt. And I am certain no one investigating does either.
But there have been now, eleven confirmed contacts with our enemy by those in the president's campaign relative to helping Donald Trump.

Mueller needs to clear that up for me. And I would think everyone should want to know for certain.

Because no matter the argument at this point, you do not. (Not you personally Keith, but everyone)

and yet it seems Mueller et al have ignored the Russian Democrat connection. This started with a dossier created by a Russian operative and given to the CLINTON campaign who used it.That in and of itself shows more "Russian involvement" than anything they have come up with on Trump. I'm like you. I don't want Russia or anybody influencing our election (including noncitizens/illegals who vote) but Russia ain't our friend. They are our enemies despite what Obama and Clinton thought, and as our enemies they will try such tactics. The USA is no different, we just do it to our allies like Israel.

[CitizenBBN]

I've said all I can say. Before there are any results you have ruled it a straw job.
And so one can only conclude you do not care what the facts may eventually prove to be.
Only that you disagree with who is looking for them.

Personally I dont have to be right....only convinced. Much like the majority in Congress and of the American people, and the world.

Mr Mueller will help accomplish that. And if it requires further investigation doesn't matter..

And so it should be to an eventual mutual satisfaction.
But those danged alternate facts may prevent it for some.
:trink39:

Anyway, thanks to the forum for letting me speak up. Ive felt comfortable doing so.


I care what the facts are, I am just willing to consider ALL the facts, not just cherry pick them to suit a pre-biased belief system or assumptions made based on appearance or the claims of those with a clear vested interest.

See, I believe ALL these guys are corrupt, and I have mountains of evidence to prove it going back decades of observation. So do I think people around Trump were happy to use their access to get brown nosed by lots of people, foreigners included? Sure I do. But I also see that those around every major political player are doing the same thing and have for a very long time, and I won't shoot one guy for jaywalking while others are still doing it.

I think I believe, in the end, in justice more than you, b/c I don't want selective justice but equality before the law. Justice unevenly applied is not justice, it's vendetta. When Mueller starts asking Podesta about his brother, and starts asking FBI agents why they were trying to get their kids jobs with the Clinton campaign at the same time they were investigating the email server, then I'll feel like the "facts" will come out.

Until then I know what we'll see is a very selective cherry picking of "facts". Some of them may be true, but in absence of context they lose perspective. That's how this stuff gets sold, by saying "see here's the proof" without looking at the overall picture.

So far nothing that has come out rises to the level of a crime, and in fact if Trump had met with Putin directly to orchestrate their involvement it's not even a crime, so no I don't see much coming of this that is "fact". I see the swamp pushing back as hard as they can against having their little fiefdoms upset, from the DOJ to FBI to the GOP leadership.

[Doc]

We have no clue yet as to what Mueller might have. Therein lies the rub on the far right and the fear of testimony.

The I don't want to know attitude is very disheartening.

thats because James Comey doesnt work for him to leak it to the press

[Doc]

Then there is no cause for concern. It will be exposed as a farce and everyone will go home happy.

I'll be happy myself knowing democracy endures and the republic is safe.

And id like to point out the majority of meaningful opinions is not only that of the far right. About three out of ten who consider themselves conservatives agree with me.

Because of that, my friends here discard them as as "not really republicans" That is a shame imho.
And it's the reason some of our good friends here who ARE Republican no longer frequent this forum.

Anyway Im on an island here. So I'll back out.

Yes, there is cause for concern. That is the point you are missing. The investigation isnt focing on Russian Influencing the election. If it were it would be going after the DNC as well.

[CitizenBBN]

and yet it seems Mueller et al have ignored the Russian Democrat connection. This started with a dossier created by a Russian operative and given to the CLINTON campaign who used it.That in and of itself shows more "Russian involvement" than anything they have come up with on Trump. I'm like you. I don't want Russia or anybody influencing our election (including noncitizens/illegals who vote) but Russia ain't our friend. They are our enemies despite what Obama and Clinton thought, and as our enemies they will try such tactics. The USA is no different, we just do it to our allies like Israel.

Its funny that now suddenly Russia is a huge threat, when Romney and the GOP were saying it while Hillary was pushing the "reset button" and no one said a thing about it.

Yes they are our enemy. DUH. No one is debating that any more, only the Obama/Clinton camps ever wanted to be their buddies.

But if one really thinks Russia is such a huge threat to the American way of life then fine, why the Hades aren't we investigating Uranium One and Podesta and the dossier sources and the spending the Russian bots did for Sanders, etc.?

The only way to not be a total hypocrite on the Russian threat is to call for an independent counsel to investigate ALL of these things, yet Mueller is only targeting Trump. And his staff has about 90% hard core Clinton campaign donors on it. Gee, wonder what's going on there.....


Ironic how the Left has gone so totally Joe McCarthy on this one isn't it? with these modern Communists behind every door and need to be ferreted out? Yet just like McCarthy they aren't doing a broad investigation but just targeting their political enemies. Yeah, that's intellectually honest. Sure. And McCarthy was a great patriot too I suppose.

[CitizenBBN]

Yes, there is cause for concern. That is the point you are missing. The investigation isnt focing on Russian Influencing the election. If it were it would be going after the DNC as well.

Let me know if you can get this basic fact accepted. I've tried for many pages, no traction so far.

At this point the investigation is focusing on anything it can to "get Trump". That's why Uranium One, with a FBI witness testifying Russians influenced the government,isn't even on the Mueller letter of engagement, and yet he's going after Manafort for totally unrelated things from 2003.

Anyone can see what's going on. If this were for real BOTH sides would be under the microscope and Huma Abedin with her foreign "pay for play" emails would be sitting right next to Manafort.

Hell. we have hard texts from senior FBI people talking about this very "insurance policy" type of action. I think if these hacks stood up with their arms around De Niro and said "F Trump" people would still act like this was all some totally legit, honest deal. In fact I'd bet my house on it. Nothing short of "I ..... being of sound mind and uncoerced do hereby admit I engaged in activities to hurt the Trump campaign and Presidency", and even then 30% of the Left would still think it was OK.

[Catonahottinroof]

He was FBI director at the time this occurred with Manafort. I’m sure he was aware and knew he’d be an easy target.

Let me know if you can get this basic fact accepted. I've tried for many pages, no traction so far.

At this point the investigation is focusing on anything it can to "get Trump". That's why Uranium One, with a FBI witness testifying Russians influenced the government,isn't even on the Mueller letter of engagement, and yet he's going after Manafort for totally unrelated things from 2003.

Anyone can see what's going on. If this were for real BOTH sides would be under the microscope and Huma Abedin with her foreign "pay for play" emails would be sitting right next to Manafort.

Hell. we have hard texts from senior FBI people talking about this very "insurance policy" type of action. I think if these hacks stood up with their arms around De Niro and said "F Trump" people would still act like this was all some totally legit, honest deal. In fact I'd bet my house on it. Nothing short of "I ..... being of sound mind and uncoerced do hereby admit I engaged in activities to hurt the Trump campaign and Presidency", and even then 30% of the Left would still think it was OK.

[CitizenBBN]

He was FBI director at the time this occurred with Manafort. I’m sure he was aware and knew he’d be an easy target.

We should all feel great about Mueller. He's got such "bi partisan support". You know, from people who have gotten rich spending 30-40 years in Washington while almost nothing got done. Those people.

Meanwhile, he hired Strozk, hired a guy who was also a political climber from Sothern District new York who has been found guilty MULTIPLE times for various levels of prosecutorial misconduct, and Dershowitz himself suspects he was involved in keeping an innocent man in jail to avoid having it shown they messed up.

here's a really good article on Mueller while at FBI, and why it is that no one seems to want to question him, and if you do you are somehow undermining the rule of law:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/04/19/revealed-robert-muellers-fbi-repeatedly-abused-prosecutorial-discretion/

For those who don't click, it lays out people who were totally innocent whose lives were ruined due to the FBI's tactics, including at least one suicide over it. Totally innocent, but the FBI went after him as the anthrax mailer with questionable science, ruined his life.

Sound familiar to what we're seeing now?

here's a nice quick view of his lead prosecutor, Andrew Weissman, and how he's managed to get entire unanimous decisions overturning his actions:

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/356253-judging-by-muellers-staffing-choices-he-may-not-be-very-interested-in

here's a story on his withholding of exculpatory evidence in a civil rights case:

https://saraacarter.com/muellers-pit-bull-andrew-weissmann-busted-withholding-evidence-previous-case/

that article is talking with a former ACLU lawyer who had the issue with him.

I've already linked the Dershowitz article somewhere. there are a BUNCH more.

Almost all of his team are not just Democrats but Democratic DONORS (most people don't actually write campaign checks, but in Washington the connected ones sure do), and there is a long long list of them focusing more on getting someone than on getting justice. They've ruined numerous innocent lives in the process, in many cases knowing they are innocent, and don't even apologize.

Yeah of course they have bi-partisan support. The Democrats all supported Comey until he did something they didnt' like, and then the GOP did. Right now Mueller is out there to "get Trump", and the elites and leadership in Washington elites certainly agree they want that done, so yeah they all support him.

But that doesn't go to his credibility. It just goes to his political position within Washington. If you want to look at his credibility you have to read these articles and interviews with the attorneys and people who have actually had dealings with these guys.

That's a much less rosy tale.

[KeithKSR]

Three of the five FBI agents who were evidenced to have shown anti-Trump bias in the recent IG report worked on the Mueller investigation. This should trouble all Americans, regardless of political views.

[CitizenBBN]

Three of the five FBI agents who were evidenced to have shown anti-Trump bias in the recent IG report worked on the Mueller investigation. This should trouble all Americans, regardless of political views.

And all evidence of their bias was hidden from Congressional oversight, including the "smoking gun" "we won't let him" text.

that alone should be starting five alarm fires. it's blatant, beyond dispute the FBI/DOJ redacted information from legal Congressional oversight NOT to protect "national security" or "sources and methods", but to hide the vehemently anti-Trump views of key people in both investigations.

That's not their decision to make, whether you think the texts prove anything or not. The very fact they made that call is a violation of the law and an abrogation of their role as public servants answerable, through elected representatives, to The People.

They have withheld embarrassing and potentially damning evidence to protect themselves and their image. That's illegal, it's a crime, and it's a clear indication they cannot be trusted.

Seriously, what do they have to be caught doing before people decide you can't trust the FBI in this situation? They're clearly covering their butts here, it's beyond any kind of dispute. They were caught red handed.

Heck, they even redacted a comment about a $70,000 table b/c they knew it would be embarrassing. if they are willing to violate US code to hide something so small an ephemeral, what is the big stuff they are willing to hide?

[Doc]

Three of the five FBI agents who were evidenced to have shown anti-Trump bias in the recent IG report worked on the Mueller investigation. This should trouble all Americans, regardless of political views.

It does not trouble those who cant accept they lost an election, a god given election that they were destine to win and only something nefarious could have altered that outcome

[dan_bgblue]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/07/12/jason-chaffetz-strzok-testifies-but-ex-lover-lisa-page-snubs-hill-subpoena-thanks-to-bad-call-by-sessions.html

[KeithKSR]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/07/12/jason-chaffetz-strzok-testifies-but-ex-lover-lisa-page-snubs-hill-subpoena-thanks-to-bad-call-by-sessions.html

I've been extremely disappointed in Jeff Sessions as the AG.

[CitizenBBN]

I've been extremely disappointed in Jeff Sessions as the AG.

Honestly this move by him should be Trump's excuse to fire his butt. he's horrid, on many levels.

There's all the FBI/DOJ stuff, where he's absolutely doing nothing to drain the swamp, but then there's his decision to go back to war on pot, implementation of the zero tolerance policy at the border, and IMO most glaringly his hard-on man love for "civil forfeiture", or the forced confiscation of money and assets by law enforcement from people who have not even been charged with a crime. You know, totalitarianism.

He' stunningly bad, and not just b/c of the Russia stuff or any of the political stuff. His priorities are whacked, and IMO anyone who thinks civil forfeiture is even legal should be removed from office on basic principle.

[KeithKSR]

Honestly this move by him should be Trump's excuse to fire his butt. he's horrid, on many levels.

There's all the FBI/DOJ stuff, where he's absolutely doing nothing to drain the swamp, but then there's his decision to go back to war on pot, implementation of the zero tolerance policy at the border, and IMO most glaringly his hard-on man love for "civil forfeiture", or the forced confiscation of money and assets by law enforcement from people who have not even been charged with a crime. You know, totalitarianism.

He' stunningly bad, and not just b/c of the Russia stuff or any of the political stuff. His priorities are whacked, and IMO anyone who thinks civil forfeiture is even legal should be removed from office on basic principle.

The problem with removing Sessions at this time is that the Dems will obstruct and delay the confirmation of a successor, which leaves Rosenstein as the de facto AG. As bad as Sessions has been I think Rosenstein would be worse.