Trump advocates for Russia to rejoin G7 to make G8

[UKHistory]

Trump continues to push an isolationist agenda railing against our allies while praising Russia. What is striking is that Putin has used trumps tariffs as an example of why US leadership is bad for the world.

Trump wants to ignore the annexation of Crimea and isolate America totally.

God help us all.

[kingcat]

Trump continues to push an isolationist agenda railing against our allies while praising Russia. What is striking is that Putin has used trumps tariffs as an example of why US leadership is bad for the world.

Trump wants to ignore the annexation of Crimea and isolate America totally.

God help us all.

Some consider it a coordinated venture

[UKHistory]

I am trying to hold my tongue here and just focus on Kentucky Basketball. But I see the country being led down a disastrous path (more so than the most recent administrations) and it is difficult to contain my worry and fear for the fate of our country.

[Doc]

I am trying to hold my tongue here and just focus on Kentucky Basketball. But I see the country being led down a disastrous path (more so than the most recent administrations) and it is difficult to contain my worry and fear for the fate of our country.

And now you know how I felt when Obama was elected. I expected the corruption that we has yet he and others deny such as the IRS and Fast and Furious, I also expect an economy that continued to tank, a rise in a welfare /nanny state and a foreign policy that was a joke. Of course I had enough faith in the system to not proclaim Armagedon, knowing there would be a small minority that would find it more important abandon their core values in an effort to obstuct his goals, even ones that clearly were beneficial, but enough faith that eventually "this too shall pass" and fottunately it did. A robust economy, a foreign policy that is clear and our allies know where we stand and our foes know we mean what we say despite an artificial witch hunt and people who so dislike the man tha they will do thing that would harm the country rather than support any inititive, even ones they champion.......

[CitizenBBN]

History, I love ya, but you are just convinced Trump is a Russian agent and won't let go, and I just don't get it.

I don't mean that in a bad way, I sincerely wish we could spend a couple of days talking so I could understand this view out there that sees Trump as so deeply evil and somehow a threat to the nation and democracy in general.

B/c I have to tell you that the empirical evidence from over a year of his term in office points to absolutely nothing unusual in his actions compared to any other President. He's done nothing in terms of policy or actions that is in any way unusual in an historical context. It may not be something you support, but it's nothing we didn't see with Reagan or Bush or Obama or whoever.

INvestigating leaks? Obama set a record for trying to clamp down on leaks, was he a threat to freedom of the press? The press clearly didn't think so.

There's just nothing there, and there's nothing to him trying to build a better relationship with Russia or anyone else. Obama and Hillary were obsessed with doing it, were they evil and going to destroy the nation? No.

Russia is not our friend, but neither is China and we have to work with them too. Would you rather we close their embassies and cut off relations and start massing troops? Of course not, so if dialog and diplomacy is better why is calling for it so evil?

It's b/c the media and the elites have you convinced Trump is a Russian spy IMO, and there's no truth to it. Did Russia try to influence policy with people close to Trump? Sure they did. They did with Hillary too, and far more effectively, and they did with Bush and Obama and Clinton and everyone else, and so did Oman and Jordan and Nigeria and Australia, et al. It's how the system works, good or bad.

What Trump needs to do is use the offer of a G7/8 seat with Russia to get them to remove pressure on Kim as we try to cut a deal with North Korea. Russia gets a seat back at the table, but they support Kim's pivot to a treaty with the West that gives him the financial support he needs in exchange for demilitarization.

That's just good policy and good foreign strategy, not some evil move against democracy as a whole.

The truth IMO is that Trump has done a suprisingly good job so far. Yes he's as rough around the edges as ever and loves throwing out crap to keep everyone dancing on his strings, and that's very annoying at times, but in terms of actual actions not a single one of those dire predictions have even come close to passing.

Maybe after more than a year it's time to accept that he's not going to open up camps and round people up or stage a coup and arrest Congress. Not going to happen guys. He's following the law as much or more than the last President, and is far from some kind of deep threat.

The only threat he is is to the power elites of this nation who are really pulling our strings, and you can see how much they are fighting back to stay in control of our government and the decisions it makes. If you want to fear for democracy fear for agencies full of career people who refuse to answer to any elected official from ANY branch of government and then make statements proud of it as if they are somehow holding the moral high ground. Fear Rosenstein and his ilk and mentality, not Trump. When democracy dies, it will die with the whimper of those people putting in the knife, not flamboyant people like Trump.

[CitizenBBN]

And now you know how I felt when Obama was elected. I expected the corruption that we has yet he and others deny such as the IRS and Fast and Furious, I also expect an economy that continued to tank, a rise in a welfare /nanny state and a foreign policy that was a joke. Of course I had enough faith in the system to not proclaim Armagedon, knowing there would be a small minority that would find it more important abandon their core values in an effort to obstuct his goals, even ones that clearly were beneficial, but enough faith that eventually "this too shall pass" and fottunately it did. A robust economy, a foreign policy that is clear and our allies know where we stand and our foes know we mean what we say despite an artificial witch hunt and people who so dislike the man tha they will do thing that would harm the country rather than support any inititive, even ones they champion.......

I'm befuddled that the last President had numerous examples of clearly extra-Constitutional or outright non-Constitutional behavior as well as clear cases of corruption and cover ups, yet it's this president that is such a threat to democracy in some fundamental way.

IMO all these theories about Trump, where even if he makes a perfectly reasoned suggestion like opening DIALOGUE with them, paints him as somehow nefariously selling America to them, are about the same as the right wing theories we saw that Obama was planning seize the the government rather than leave office b/c the DHS bought a crap load of 40 S&W ammunition.

It's disconcerting the DHS wastes that kind of money, but it's not very likely Obama was plotting to seize the government. LIkewise Trump isn't out there plotting against America as some 1980s B-movie KGB deep cover agent.

Like I said, if you want to worry about the death of democracy, ask which elected official exactly has authority over the Department of Justice. they shoudl change their name to Ministry of Truth and get it over with b/c they apparently don't think they answer to anyone for anything.

[kingcat]

First, I respect opposing political views among friends and all Americans.

That said, changing the narrative to Obama is a good tactic for debate I admit. But I think it’s wreckless politics

Stopping short of being a Russian agent isn’t necessarily a ringing endorsement for the President of the United States.

[UKHistory]

Citizen,

I'd welcome that conversation. I spoke to one of the talking heads from the nightly tv shows. I told her that I hear her and ther roundtables saying we are going to get through Trump and I don't agree. We came through the Witch Trials and McCarthy because at some point someone stood up and said something to the effect of "have you no shame"?

We don't have anyone in power saying that.

I almost started a thread wishing Trump well as he meets with North Koreans. Then summit was off and back on with my head spinning. He really communicates effectively with totalitarian dictators. That is his true strong suit.

And let me preface this by saying I hope to be proven wrong and that in either 2020 or 2024 Trump will peacefully leave office based on the election results. I worry about him not leaving and I worry about the growth of the presidency's imperial power at the same time that Congress has abdicated its role of leadership and serving as a true check and balance beyond mere partisanship.

I am not an Obama apologist and only voted for Hilary Clinton (I voted for Dole in 1996 in spite of the fact that he campaigned to get rid of my job) because of Trump's distasteful comments and his seemingly odd support of Russia over NATO countries. We can list mistakes made by an inexperienced president to be sure. But he is gone and many of his notes in history are being removed or erased.

I don't always personally support presidential policies. But in my job I have faithfully followed the law in carrying out my duties. That was not always easy under Obama. I took a lot of heat for President Bush in front of crowds across the country. This is different to me.

Trump's rallying cry of cleaning up the swamp is in direct opposition to what we have seen from his cabinet secretaries. Historically this will be the most corrupt cabinet in history in terms of exploiting the position at the expense of US taxpayers. Price, Pruitt, Mnuchin. I love the populist mantra. But removing regs, and weakening the career Federal workforce in favor of political cronies who dismiss the law is a step towards dictatorship. Perhaps a small one. But it is a step.

We can point to corruption in virtually every administration. No doubt the Clintons were shameless. This president and his efforts to personally benefit his and his companies fortunes in the oval office exceeds any renting out the Lincoln bedroom in the past.

Trump appears to lack an understanding of the world order and outside of complaining we are getting the shaft it is unclear as to what type of vision he has that will maintain America's place leading the world. Even super powers have their limits and what a super power doesn't want to do is show its limitations by exceeding its power. We need allies. And the western alliance is critical to our nation's survival.

Bush about did that with the invasion of Iraq.

I do think Trump is a kindred spirit of authoritarians and is beholden to the Russians. Putin is about the only leader and Russia the only country that he personally has not criticized. I have never seen an American leader so critical of our nation's allies while giving a pass to our greatest enemy.

I do think when one looks at Manafort, Popadopolous, Carter Paige, Sessions, Don Jr. and Trump himself, Trump's campaign did work with the Russians to win the election. The Russians certainly did intervene in our election. Yes, America has done that to other countries and while I don't feel that subversive undemocratic efforts were in our best long term interests, I throw in my "hypocrite card" to say I don't care.

I don't want us to screw around with other countries' elections. But if we did I can live with it so long as we keep foreigners out of our elections. And I really don't believe illegal aliens voted in big numbers before. Under Boss Trump they might. And I don't want him removed from office that way.

The truth is that the Russians didn't have to do much. In a close election every vote counts. Clinton has been despised by many for years and was always going to be unpopular in the south. Her numbers across the country had to be horrible and objectively people should have known. After all she lost a primary to a first term senator who made one good speech.

But the Russians worked to hurt Clinton and help Trump thus delegitimizing our electoral process. And any efforts to support third party candidates on the liberal side, aided Trump. Trump publicly called for the Russians and wikileaks to release any and all information on Clinton and the democrats. From his own mouth he asked for a foreign power to join the fray. That is an unAmerican as you can get.

If folks can't understand that liberal Americans are more pro America than Russian agents, I don't know what to say. I have cringed at church and other places when liberals are mocked and spoken of like the enemy while the Russians have been forgotten. I am an old school cold warrior. I took Russian language and history to know my enemy so I would know how to fight it.

We have lost the notion that we are all Americans.

Another reason why the Russians didn't need to do as much is a simple and horrible fact. There are a lot of Americans who like a bully. For all our history about freedom and rugged individualism, we have folks who yearn to goose step behind a strong man who is big on talk and low on character .

They like someone who mocks a veteran like John McCain and the handicapped. Some Americans even cheer when a war hero like McCain who is dying when their man prompts a mob looking for a lynching.

Some Americans like it when the President tells law enforcement to not be concerned about the rights of people being arrested. After all it isn't going to happen to them.

There are some Americans who will rally around a man who will says he defends the rights of the unborn while molesting girls once they are born.

There are Americans who will stand by a bully who pardons police who violate the rights of individuals who he jailed like Sheriff Joe.

There are Americans who cheer a man who views the Constitution, the separation of powers, the Bill of Rights and the rules of the senate as arcane stumbling blocks to his agenda.

If I wasn't an American and didn't love this country and want the our great experiment to continue, I'd find the whole thing terribly funny. But I am seeing a whole lot of good people marching (some pretty cruel one goose stepping) off a cliff that will end in tyranny.

I hope I am wrong completely. I hope I am wrong on the biggest issues at least. Until then I will avoid joining Nero playing his fiddle and try to joust some windmills to keep Old Glory flying high.

[kingcat]

Citizen,

I'd welcome that conversation. I spoke to one of the talking heads from the nightly tv shows. I told her that I hear her and ther roundtables saying we are going to get through Trump and I don't agree. We came through the Witch Trials and McCarthy because at some point someone stood up and said something to the effect of "have you no shame"?

We don't have anyone in power saying that.

I almost started a thread wishing Trump well as he meets with North Koreans. Then summit was off and back on with my head spinning. He really communicates effectively with totalitarian dictators. That is his true strong suit.

And let me preface this by saying I hope to be proven wrong and that in either 2020 or 2024 Trump will peacefully leave office based on the election results. I worry about him not leaving and I worry about the growth of the presidency's imperial power at the same time that Congress has abdicated its role of leadership and serving as a true check and balance beyond mere partisanship.

I am not an Obama apologist and only voted for Hilary Clinton (I voted for Dole in 1996 in spite of the fact that he campaigned to get rid of my job) because of Trump's distasteful comments and his seemingly odd support of Russia over NATO countries. We can list mistakes made by an inexperienced president to be sure. But he is gone and many of his notes in history are being removed or erased.

I don't always personally support presidential policies. But in my job I have faithfully followed the law in carrying out my duties. That was not always easy under Obama. I took a lot of heat for President Bush in front of crowds across the country. This is different to me.

Trump's rallying cry of cleaning up the swamp is in direct opposition to what we have seen from his cabinet secretaries. Historically this will be the most corrupt cabinet in history in terms of exploiting the position at the expense of US taxpayers. Price, Pruitt, Mnuchin. I love the populist mantra. But removing regs, and weakening the career Federal workforce in favor of political cronies who dismiss the law is a step towards dictatorship. Perhaps a small one. But it is a step.

We can point to corruption in virtually every administration. No doubt the Clintons were shameless. This president and his efforts to personally benefit his and his companies fortunes in the oval office exceeds any renting out the Lincoln bedroom in the past.

Trump appears to lack an understanding of the world order and outside of complaining we are getting the shaft it is unclear as to what type of vision he has that will maintain America's place leading the world. Even super powers have their limits and what a super power doesn't want to do is show its limitations by exceeding its power. We need allies. And the western alliance is critical to our nation's survival.

Bush about did that with the invasion of Iraq.

I do think Trump is a kindred spirit of authoritarians and is beholden to the Russians. Putin is about the only leader and Russia the only country that he personally has not criticized. I have never seen an American leader so critical of our nation's allies while giving a pass to our greatest enemy.

I do think when one looks at Manafort, Popadopolous, Carter Paige, Sessions, Don Jr. and Trump himself, Trump's campaign did work with the Russians to win the election. The Russians certainly did intervene in our election. Yes, America has done that to other countries and while I don't feel that subversive undemocratic efforts were in our best long term interests, I throw in my "hypocrite card" to say I don't care.

I don't want us to screw around with other countries' elections. But if we did I can live with it so long as we keep foreigners out of our elections. And I really don't believe illegal aliens voted in big numbers before. Under Boss Trump they might. And I don't want him removed from office that way.

The truth is that the Russians didn't have to do much. In a close election every vote counts. Clinton has been despised by many for years and was always going to be unpopular in the south. Her numbers across the country had to be horrible and objectively people should have known. After all she lost a primary to a first term senator who made one good speech.

But the Russians worked to hurt Clinton and help Trump thus delegitimizing our electoral process. And any efforts to support third party candidates on the liberal side, aided Trump. Trump publicly called for the Russians and wikileaks to release any and all information on Clinton and the democrats. From his own mouth he asked for a foreign power to join the fray. That is an unAmerican as you can get.

If folks can't understand that liberal Americans are more pro America than Russian agents, I don't know what to say. I have cringed at church and other places when liberals are mocked and spoken of like the enemy while the Russians have been forgotten. I am an old school cold warrior. I took Russian language and history to know my enemy so I would know how to fight it.

We have lost the notion that we are all Americans.

Another reason why the Russians didn't need to do as much is a simple and horrible fact. There are a lot of Americans who like a bully. For all our history about freedom and rugged individualism, we have folks who yearn to goose step behind a strong man who is big on talk and low on character .

They like someone who mocks a veteran like John McCain and the handicapped. Some Americans even cheer when a war hero like McCain who is dying when their man prompts a mob looking for a lynching.

Some Americans like it when the President tells law enforcement to not be concerned about the rights of people being arrested. After all it isn't going to happen to them.

There are some Americans who will rally around a man who will says he defends the rights of the unborn while molesting girls once they are born.

There are Americans who will stand by a bully who pardons police who violate the rights of individuals who he jailed like Sheriff Joe.

There are Americans who cheer a man who views the Constitution, the separation of powers, the Bill of Rights and the rules of the senate as arcane stumbling blocks to his agenda.

If I wasn't an American and didn't love this country and want the our great experiment to continue, I'd find the whole thing terribly funny. But I am seeing a whole lot of good people marching (some pretty cruel one goose stepping) off a cliff that will end in tyranny.

I hope I am wrong completely. I hope I am wrong on the biggest issues at least. Until then I will avoid joining Nero playing his fiddle and try to joust some windmills to keep Old Glory flying high.

Excellent post

[CitizenBBN]

First, I respect opposing political views among friends and all Americans.

That said, changing the narrative to Obama is a good tactic for debate I admit. But I think it’s wreckless politics

Stopping short of being a Russian agent isn’t necessarily a ringing endorsement for the President of the United States.

It is absolutely not changing the debate to draw on historical actions by past Presidents to measure the actions of the current President. Searching for evidence, comparing actual historical facts is how we get beyond the subjective political talking points based on emotion and sound bytes.

it's not a tactic, it's trying to find an objective, evidence based measuring stick. WHen you do that you find that Trump has done absolutely nothing in over a year in office that a) is outside the lines of actions by numerous if not almost all past Presidents, and b) none of the dire predictions of his extremism and threat to the nation have come to pass or even raised their heads.

The media and those who see him as somehow evil and a threat claim he's a threat to the free press b/c he calls them out. What? Reagan called them out too, as does any sane conservative b/c the press other than Fox and talk radio is 98% liberal. Calling out the press is NOT undermining the Constitution. Nothing in the document nor the actions or writings of the Founders indicate the President has to accept the press's actions and not respond or criticize, even viciously.

NOw, if Trump drafts a new copy of the Alien and Sedition Act (signed by John Adams) or suspends habeus corpus (done by Lincoln) and starts rounding up reporters, yeah it's OK to claim he's threatening the freedom of the press. But calling CNN fake news is just fighting back against a media complex that is overwhelmingly anti-conservative and pro government, and he has every right and IMO obligation to call them out.

That's just one example of the constant false claims that he's somehow a threat to the whole nation and our way of government. It's nonsense.

And yes, to use historical facts as evidence, Obama was much more active in prosecuting both leakers AND journalists who received those leaks. Trump's DOJ just arrested their first person after a year, Obama was setting new records in this area for proscecutions. That doesn't change the subject, it simply proves that what Trump is doing to the media is no threat whatsoever b/c it is well within the bounds of historical behavior that absolutely didn't destroy our nation.

[CitizenBBN]

History, I'll bet you my entire net worth, all $3.49 cents of it, that Trump leaves office just fine. Just like Obama.

I'll respond in more detail later, and I respect your views, but for the life of me I don't understand them. Now, I get why many of my GOP friends don't like him, but they don't like him b/c he is a loud mouthed jerk and b/c he's a populist and not a true conservative. I get those reasons.

But I just don't get the fear that he will take over the nation in some military coup, or that he's an agent of Russia, etc. That stuff just has absolutely no evidenciary support whatsoever when you view it in the CONTEXT of how other elected officials have acted and behaved.

It's absolutely the same as thinking Obama is selling out America b/c he's really a closet Muslim, and they point to the Iran deal and other things as proof. IMO if you're convinced Trump is a Russian spy based on him just not criticizing Russia hard enough then you must by logic be convinced Obama is a Muslim agent. Frankly there's a lot more evidence against Obama than Trump, LOTS more.

BTW, and I'll deal with this more later, but I'd say bombing Russian troops and putting our troops in the Baltic states is a lot more powerful than just criticizing Putin. Trump has been more anti-Russian than Obama or Hillary, and Hillary is the one who got all the direct money from PUtin's companies, but somehow Trump is the guy we have to worry about ?

LIke I said I don't know what to do with that position when every shred of real evidence says just the opposite is true. Obama an Hillary gave the Russians free reign, they were in power when Russia annexed the Crimea and we did nothing. Trump has bolstered ties with anti Russian Ukranian forces, bolstered the baltic states, KILLED Russian troops in Syria not once but multiple times, and he's the pawn b/c during the campaign he called out NATO for not spending enough money?

Really? Stop focusing on rhetoric and look at the facts of record IMO, b/c they say you have nothing to worry about.

[KeithKSR]

First, I respect opposing political views among friends and all Americans.

That said, changing the narrative to Obama is a good tactic for debate I admit. But I think it’s wreckless politics

Stopping short of being a Russian agent isn’t necessarily a ringing endorsement for the President of the United States.

Even though Obama was a tool for the Russians I wouldn’t refer to him as a Russian agent.

[CitizenBBN]

Even though Obama was a tool for the Russians I wouldn’t refer to him as a Russian agent.

Exactly. I think Obama deeply undermined our position abroad, and was strongly favorable to nations like Iran, but I don't think he's an Iranian puppet. I think he's just an idiot who dreamed of assuring his place in history. That's unfortunate, but it's hardly unique among Presidents or other world leaders and it's not led to the overthrow of the government yet either.

[KeithKSR]

But the Russians worked to hurt Clinton and help Trump thus delegitimizing our electoral process. And any efforts to support third party candidates on the liberal side, aided Trump. Trump publicly called for the Russians and wikileaks to release any and all information on Clinton and the democrats. From his own mouth he asked for a foreign power to join the fray. That is an unAmerican as you can get.

The Trump quip about the Russians finding Hillary’s 30K lost emails was clearly tongue in cheek and a joke. It has yet to be factually determined that the Russians hacked the DNC servers, because the only source for this info is the DNC. The DNC refused to allow the FBI to examine any technology that could determine who hacked into the system.

It has now become apparent that the “informants” approached the campaign claiming to have info on Hillary. Looks a lot like the FBI attempts at entrapment that failed to work.

[kingcat]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the reasons for always changing the narrative. History (not our friend here) will be the only thing that may convince us.
And it certainly will eventually, one way or the other.
But, I truly fear it will be world history and not our own.

For the majority of conservatives Trump simply must be either vindicated in all things or the narrative must be changed to accommodate "alternate facts"

Those are the facts as I see them. And in my heart i can say of a certainty, I truly hope for a successful presidency.

But the doubts are entirely legitimate and historically important.

The truth will win out. God is in control and this is His will for us all. And like I said, it is historic..in a biblical sense imo

[UKHistory]

Exactly. I think Obama deeply undermined our position abroad, and was strongly favorable to nations like Iran, but I don't think he's an Iranian puppet. I think he's just an idiot who dreamed of assuring his place in history. That's unfortunate, but it's hardly unique among Presidents or other world leaders and it's not led to the overthrow of the government yet either.

Obama’s foreign policy was shortsighted and reeked of inexperience. The Iran deal was poorly conceived. He was arrogant and due to his inexperience didn’t work well with Mitch.

Obama was not an Iranian puppet or a Muslim but his view Of the US as a colonial power didn’t help us.

That said the tea party would not have worked with him for the good of the country.

I truly believe nothing obama could have proposed would republicans be willing to have supported

[UKHistory]

Citizen,

With regards to the trump statement about Russia being brought back into the G7, maybe he should suggest that offer in consultation with you know...the allies.

The man is publicly critical of our allies and glows about thug regimes like Russia, China, turkey, and the Philippines.

[kingcat]

Citizen,

With regards to the trump statement about Russia being brought back into the G7, maybe he should suggest that offer in consultation with you know...the allies.

The man is publicly critical of our allies and glows about thug regimes like Russia, China, turkey, and the Philippines.

I think he actually is displaying the ability to convince most of his supporters this is the correct course of action. Alienate your allies and keep your enemies close.
It works in some scenarios but is dangerously simplistic in government

[UKHistory]

The cult of personality surrounding Trump is scary to me. I think he is a moron but there is something in that Neanderthal brain that appeals to far more Americans than I would hope.

He is cruel, stupid, beyond arrogant and his numbers are rising.

[Catonahottinroof]

That’s how many a conservative felt about Obama...

I think Trump is an idiot at times, especially when he rants on Twitter. Though no more of an idiot than when Obama led every situation from behind and became the drone king in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The cult of personality surrounding Trump is scary to me. I think he is a moron but there is something in that Neanderthal brain that appeals to far more Americans than I would hope.

He is cruel, stupid, beyond arrogant and his numbers are rising.

[Doc]

FYI, Im too drunk to read and understand this thread

[UKHistory]

FYI, Im too drunk to read and understand this thread

Doc, you are bright enough to understand most things If bourbon was in your veins in stead of blood.

[CitizenBBN]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the reasons for always changing the narrative. History (not our friend here) will be the only thing that may convince us.
And it certainly will eventually, one way or the other.
But, I truly fear it will be world history and not our own.

For the majority of conservatives Trump simply must be either vindicated in all things or the narrative must be changed to accommodate "alternate facts"

Those are the facts as I see them. And in my heart i can say of a certainty, I truly hope for a successful presidency.

But the doubts are entirely legitimate and historically important.

The truth will win out. God is in control and this is His will for us all. And like I said, it is historic..in a biblical sense imo

I don't see how we get around the basic correctness of using past evidence to judge current situations. This is the basic basis of all logical conversation and thought from Plato to now. It just is dagnabit. :)

I never once strayed from using those examples as comparisons to Trump. If I went off on Obama for 10 paragraphs that's one thing and you'd be right to call me out, but when I cite something Reagan or Bush or Obama or Clinton did in an area of policy or action as a contrast to one Trump did, that's the use of empirical evidence.

For example, the claim is that Trump is being soft and conciliatory towards Russia as US President. the way to judge if that is true or not is to compare to US policy towards Russia under other Presidents. Given the end of the USSR is relatively recent, the best evidence comes from later aministrations, and given the specific references to Putin that's Obama and Hillary.

If other Presidents, and in fact other Western leaders, were even more conciliatory to Russia than Trump, that directly undermines the claim that these current facts show he is somehow beholden to them or adversely influenced by them.

To prove you are right we'd need to show that what Trump is doing is somehow statistically different in some way from what other Presidents did when dealing with Putin, and in fact the evidence shows he has been much tougher on pressuring Russia than Obama or Bush II. Something that says "wow, that's unusual for a PResident to do with Russia, that should be a real concern."

that's how you decide things using logic instead of emotion. You gather evidence, you compare it, you account for variables and differences, and you draw conclusions. that's what I'm doing when I look at past interactions with Russia of other administrations.

I don't mean that to sound pushy, but I just don't know how else to interpret the way to properly draw conclusions on anything, policy or otherwise.

What you are asking me to do is somehow judge Trump's actions in a vacuum, where we can't draw on other policy decisions and instead we get "well he said nice things about Putin so he must like the guy and that means all these claims are true". That is very myopic in its approach, and IMO leads to bad conclusions.

I really am not trying to change the subject. I'm simply trying to show that Trump has taken absolutely no actions to date that show any favoritism to Russia that is in any way an unusual position for the US or a US President to take. In fact, there is a LOT more evidence he's been tougher on Russia than either Bush II or Obama, the two Presidents who have most worked with Russia in the post Soviet but increasingly totalitarian era of Putin.

[CitizenBBN]

The cult of personality surrounding Trump is scary to me. I think he is a moron but there is something in that Neanderthal brain that appeals to far more Americans than I would hope.

He is cruel, stupid, beyond arrogant and his numbers are rising.

No more scary that what conservatives saw as the cult of personality around Obama. I was and continue to be disheartened that his message resonated with anyone in this country.

It's no different, but to draw on that and conclude that this time is somehow different, that Trump is somehow a unique circumstance, is the real threat to the nation and democracy b/c it leads people to think the ends justify the means, which is the biggest threat to our Constitution.

Trump isn't any more a "cult of personality" than Obama was, or Reagan, or Kennedy. We've had lots of Presidents who were able to strike a certain cord with a constituency. Why is that dangerous? Why with Trump are we risking the nation over it? We aren't.

Trump is an ass. That's not the same as being a threat to democracy. If anything it pretty much insures he isn't one.

[Doc]

Citizen,

I'd welcome that conversation. I spoke to one of the talking heads from the nightly tv shows. I told her that I hear her and ther roundtables saying we are going to get through Trump and I don't agree. We came through the Witch Trials and McCarthy because at some point someone stood up and said something to the effect of "have you no shame"?

We don't have anyone in power saying that.

I almost started a thread wishing Trump well as he meets with North Koreans. Then summit was off and back on with my head spinning. He really communicates effectively with totalitarian dictators. That is his true strong suit.

And let me preface this by saying I hope to be proven wrong and that in either 2020 or 2024 Trump will peacefully leave office based on the election results. I worry about him not leaving and I worry about the growth of the presidency's imperial power at the same time that Congress has abdicated its role of leadership and serving as a true check and balance beyond mere partisanship.

I am not an Obama apologist and only voted for Hilary Clinton (I voted for Dole in 1996 in spite of the fact that he campaigned to get rid of my job) because of Trump's distasteful comments and his seemingly odd support of Russia over NATO countries. We can list mistakes made by an inexperienced president to be sure. But he is gone and many of his notes in history are being removed or erased.

I don't always personally support presidential policies. But in my job I have faithfully followed the law in carrying out my duties. That was not always easy under Obama. I took a lot of heat for President Bush in front of crowds across the country. This is different to me.

Trump's rallying cry of cleaning up the swamp is in direct opposition to what we have seen from his cabinet secretaries. Historically this will be the most corrupt cabinet in history in terms of exploiting the position at the expense of US taxpayers. Price, Pruitt, Mnuchin. I love the populist mantra. But removing regs, and weakening the career Federal workforce in favor of political cronies who dismiss the law is a step towards dictatorship. Perhaps a small one. But it is a step.

We can point to corruption in virtually every administration. No doubt the Clintons were shameless. This president and his efforts to personally benefit his and his companies fortunes in the oval office exceeds any renting out the Lincoln bedroom in the past.

Trump appears to lack an understanding of the world order and outside of complaining we are getting the shaft it is unclear as to what type of vision he has that will maintain America's place leading the world. Even super powers have their limits and what a super power doesn't want to do is show its limitations by exceeding its power. We need allies. And the western alliance is critical to our nation's survival.

Bush about did that with the invasion of Iraq.

I do think Trump is a kindred spirit of authoritarians and is beholden to the Russians. Putin is about the only leader and Russia the only country that he personally has not criticized. I have never seen an American leader so critical of our nation's allies while giving a pass to our greatest enemy.

I do think when one looks at Manafort, Popadopolous, Carter Paige, Sessions, Don Jr. and Trump himself, Trump's campaign did work with the Russians to win the election. The Russians certainly did intervene in our election. Yes, America has done that to other countries and while I don't feel that subversive undemocratic efforts were in our best long term interests, I throw in my "hypocrite card" to say I don't care.

I don't want us to screw around with other countries' elections. But if we did I can live with it so long as we keep foreigners out of our elections. And I really don't believe illegal aliens voted in big numbers before. Under Boss Trump they might. And I don't want him removed from office that way.

The truth is that the Russians didn't have to do much. In a close election every vote counts. Clinton has been despised by many for years and was always going to be unpopular in the south. Her numbers across the country had to be horrible and objectively people should have known. After all she lost a primary to a first term senator who made one good speech.

But the Russians worked to hurt Clinton and help Trump thus delegitimizing our electoral process. And any efforts to support third party candidates on the liberal side, aided Trump. Trump publicly called for the Russians and wikileaks to release any and all information on Clinton and the democrats. From his own mouth he asked for a foreign power to join the fray. That is an unAmerican as you can get.

If folks can't understand that liberal Americans are more pro America than Russian agents, I don't know what to say. I have cringed at church and other places when liberals are mocked and spoken of like the enemy while the Russians have been forgotten. I am an old school cold warrior. I took Russian language and history to know my enemy so I would know how to fight it.

We have lost the notion that we are all Americans.

Another reason why the Russians didn't need to do as much is a simple and horrible fact. There are a lot of Americans who like a bully. For all our history about freedom and rugged individualism, we have folks who yearn to goose step behind a strong man who is big on talk and low on character .

They like someone who mocks a veteran like John McCain and the handicapped. Some Americans even cheer when a war hero like McCain who is dying when their man prompts a mob looking for a lynching.

Some Americans like it when the President tells law enforcement to not be concerned about the rights of people being arrested. After all it isn't going to happen to them.

There are some Americans who will rally around a man who will says he defends the rights of the unborn while molesting girls once they are born.

There are Americans who will stand by a bully who pardons police who violate the rights of individuals who he jailed like Sheriff Joe.

There are Americans who cheer a man who views the Constitution, the separation of powers, the Bill of Rights and the rules of the senate as arcane stumbling blocks to his agenda.

If I wasn't an American and didn't love this country and want the our great experiment to continue, I'd find the whole thing terribly funny. But I am seeing a whole lot of good people marching (some pretty cruel one goose stepping) off a cliff that will end in tyranny.

I hope I am wrong completely. I hope I am wrong on the biggest issues at least. Until then I will avoid joining Nero playing his fiddle and try to joust some windmills to keep Old Glory flying high.

im sober now so can understand......

while what you say makes sense, its no different than any other President. You found his .mocking of McCain distastful. I thought thought the same of Obama when he mocked Romney with the "its called a submarine" comment. There were Americans who cheered Obamas end runs of the Consritution. There were people like me who warned the changing the rules as Harry Reid did was not a good idea because not only was it good for the left then but it also allowed the right to do the same. We currently have a govt the will block ANYTHING he wants to do. If Obama want to pardon M Ali, it would be roundly applauded but with Trump its grandstanding and posturing. Obamas goal was to increase welfare and unemployment recipients, Trumps is to create jobs. Some dont like that. I get it. Pepple HATE him and will always hate him. He can do no right. Were he black that would be the definition of racism but he isnt. Is he crass and unlikable? yes. are his policies working? yes.

[Doc]

No more scary that what conservatives saw as the cult of personality around Obama. I was and continue to be disheartened that his message resonated with anyone in this country.

It's no different, but to draw on that and conclude that this time is somehow different, that Trump is somehow a unique circumstance, is the real threat to the nation and democracy b/c it leads people to think the ends justify the means, which is the biggest threat to our Constitution.

Trump isn't any more a "cult of personality" than Obama was, or Reagan, or Kennedy. We've had lots of Presidents who were able to strike a certain cord with a constituency. Why is that dangerous? Why with Trump are we risking the nation over it? We aren't.

Trump is an ass. That's not the same as being a threat to democracy. If anything it pretty much insures he isn't one.

Saul Alinsky
Van Jones
Hell Hillary Clinton!

that is a list of crooks

Paul mannaforts cousin is a client. He will tell you he is a crook. Of course to make it in politics and NYC you got to be somewhat crooked

[Doc]

there seems to be a sense that there is a mass of Trump supporters. Im certainly not. In fact at times Im embarrassed by his anitics. What I am is a supporter of 1) his result and 2) the process. I see tremendous positive movement in or ecomony and foreign policy. I think the economy is undeniable. Foreign policy os always debatable but ISIS and N.Korea certainly show progress. As for the American Process, that is not so positive. Hillary lost, get over it. The les
ft needs to quit crying like little babies and move on. Thay act like 5 year olds. I never thought the the GOP could be made to look good when Obama won but miraculously they have becuase of liberal stupidity and childness

[UKHistory]

Doc, You wrote "While what you say makes sense, its no different than any other President. You found his .mocking of McCain distasteful. I thought thought the same of Obama when he mocked Romney with the "its called a submarine" comment.'

Respectfully the two comments are not in the same universe.

Trump, a man who has not served his country, mocked a POW and said McCain is only a hero because he got captured. Trump's heroes don't get captured.

Attack McCain's policies. Attack a comment or ridicule a statement. But to discount McCain's heroism for being shot down is inexcusable. McCain not only endured torture at the hands of the North Vietnamese for years, McCain refused to cut in line to go home early. Think about that. The NVA thought by releasing McCain early, due to the aviator being the son of an admiral, it might court favor in peace talks. McCain refused to go leave before men who had been captured earlier got to go home.

That is a heroism I don't think I am capable of. And that jackass in the White House sure as hell isn't. Respectfully you can't equate the two. To do so is give Trump the world's biggest ongoing mulligan.

Repeatedly I see wonderful people keep making the same statement of equating Trump to other US leaders. Repeatedly good folks keep saying "the shoe is on the other foot" as this how conservatives felt under Obama. Or paraphrasing, "It is your turn to take it." Guess what? I am not an Obama guy.

I voted Bush 41, Bush 43, McCain. I didn't vote for Romney. But I have grave concerns as to what Obama's weak leadership did. I have even greater concerns of Trump's nonleadership and his clear support of Putin is doing to the most important international alliance the world has ever known.

[UKHistory]

Let me be clear, I find Trump referencing McCain, as he is dying, and his goose stepping non-thinkers booing McCain during rallies distasteful. I find it distasteful that members of Trump's staff would dismiss McCain as having one foot in the grave and unimportant in policy matters.

I didn't find Trump's comments about McCain being a former POW disqualifying him as real hero "distasteful".

I found it to be unpatriotic and Unfreaking American. It is also should have been an automatic disqualification for that jackass of being considered a legitimate candidate for high office.

[kingcat]

Let me be clear, I find Trump referencing McCain, as he is dying, and his goose stepping non-thinkers booing McCain during rallies distasteful. I find it distasteful that members of Trump's staff would dismiss McCain as having one foot in the grave and unimportant in policy matters.

I didn't find Trump's comments about McCain being a former POW disqualifying him as real hero "distasteful".

I found it to be unpatriotic and Unfreaking American. It is also should have been an automatic disqualification for that jackass of being considered a legitimate candidate for high office.

Truth

[UKHistory]

The Radcliff, KY contingent is in agreement. Just a few million more to bring to our side. :)

[Doc]

I have never defended Trumps stetement towards McCain, and NEVER will. Personally I think McCain is a weak leader but like every single person who served in the military and put their life on the line, be it during war or peace, who were capture or not, a genuine hero. So while I think Trump's statement was funny, it was wholly and utterly tasteless. But thats Trumps style. Thats being a "New Yorker". Is it worse than referring to half the nation as "deplorable"? Or suggesting that the GOP's health care platform is to simply "kill granny"? Or if you oppose ANY Presidential initiative you are a racist? I guess it depends if it you that is being called the deplorable murdering racist. I don't particularly like it but clearly the left sees me exactly as that because that is exactly how they refer to me. Do it bother you that I and millions of others are baselessly called a racist as much as Trumps comment toward a single individual? Does you dander get as raised when the race baiter use pull out the entire deck or cards.
Personally I'm over it, and I suspect McCain is over Trump juvenile comment.

[CitizenBBN]

So far we have a page of discussion of Trump, and the only criticism of him is stuff he's said.

You know what a politician's words are worth? Nothing. Not a dang thing.

The question is what they DO, that's how you measure them if you want to be objective and not sucked into the party talking points.

I continue to see the claim he's in bed with Russia. This despite him actually responding in Syria, with force, that apparently killed Russian soldiers or at least killed their allies. The last President did nothing to curb Russian influence in that region.

This despite his working to build up the anti-Russian side in the Ukraine by providing them coal instead of Russia. last President did nothing even when they annexed part of the Ukraine.

This despite his ACTION of putting troops in the Baltic states, and GOING to that region early in his administration and pledging support. Of course his action apparently counts as nothing, b/c in the campaign he called out NATO for not spending enough. so his words months earlier mean more than his actual actions as President to some. I'm betting Putin disagrees.

Point to me Trump's ACTIONS as President that have in some way aided Putin. Find me something that shows Trump is doing something unusually favorable to Putin and Russia that is unusual in the context of our post-Soviet dealings with them. Not words, actual actions.

Once again, when you look at the actual facts and not just words and claims and politics, you see that this president has been far tougher on Russia than either his opponent or the last Administration.

There's no basis whatsoever, a year plus into his Administration, to think there is any pro-Russian platform within the White House. Not a single act of policy that is in any way out of character, and several acts that show growing US hegemony against Russian advancements from the middle East through Eastern Europe and into the Baltics. And that doesn't even count North Korea, another huge piece of Sino-Soviet hegemony against the West that Trump is trying to remove.

Stick to the actions, not the words and claims and talking points, and the picture of politics becomes so much more clear. And when you do, you find that Trump has been a shocklingly better presidnet thus far than even many supports thought we would see.

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, and Re the McCain comment, if that's an "automatic disqualifier", I want "you didn't build that" added to the list, and Obama's court appointments rettroactively removed from the bench. That comment shows a man who fundamentally does not believe in entrepreneurism or free markets or anything else on which this nation is based.

Trump's comment was boorish and rude and everything else, as was his comment about Cruz, and a host of others. No doubt about it.

But more than 60 million Americans are sick of polished politicians who say all the right things but do all the wrong things, so they're willing to try a guy who says the wrong thing with frequency and even zest, in hopes he may do some right things. I agree with those folks. I want results, the words mean nothing.

Again, it's all about words, b/c policy wise there's really no good attack on him to this point. That's pretty telling.

And as for McCain, you may want to do a little reasearch on his time after his heroism in the war. Start by looking at his role in the S&L crisis in the 80s and his use of Senatorial influence. Google "Keating Five". that should get you a good start on learning more about the man as a politician.

Spoiler alert, you may not like all you find.

[CitizenBBN]

Let me save you some time re McCain, and just how honorable and noble he is as a person:

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/mccain-the-most-reprehensible-of-the-keating-five-6431838

http://www.investmentwatchblog.com/john-mccain-is-literally-the-most-despised-politician/

Be careful who you rally around. McCain was a war hero no doubt, but as a private politician he's been corrupt and manipulative and two faced as they come.

he was a hero. So was Benedict Arnold. Study the whole man before you get your dander up to much in his defense is my advice.

[Catonahottinroof]

I’m with you here. I’m certainly no Trump supporter, nor an Obama supporter. As a Libertarian I take it in the tailpipe from both parties. With that being said, Trump is not even getting close to a fair shake in the media, coupled with his Twitler image he has of tweeting buffoonery before he has all the facts. Sort of like Obama conmmenting on police issues, before the facts proved his comments idiotic. Yet the media buries Trump for his but not Obama, at least not in the volume It has Trump.
Some folks here need to step back and look without red or blue glasses on...

there seems to be a sense that there is a mass of Trump supporters. Im certainly not. In fact at times Im embarrassed by his anitics. What I am is a supporter of 1) his result and 2) the process. I see tremendous positive movement in or ecomony and foreign policy. I think the economy is undeniable. Foreign policy os always debatable but ISIS and N.Korea certainly show progress. As for the American Process, that is not so positive. Hillary lost, get over it. The les
ft needs to quit crying like little babies and move on. Thay act like 5 year olds. I never thought the the GOP could be made to look good when Obama won but miraculously they have becuase of liberal stupidity and childness

[kingcat]

I believe Trump at the very least has surrounded himself with people who draw support from Russian intelligence and it's oligarchy and and have used that to aid not only in his campaign but to manipulate foreign policy. We pretty much know that.

Until all the facts come out everything is just an opinion except what has been proven. But what's been proven and admitted to is pretty bad.

For instance, if a world leader can alter the truth after basically admitting to forming a misleading statement to cover up the appearance of malfeasance in a grave matter of national security, and his supporters refuse to question it, then there is not room for serious discussion. There is just zero defense for that type of thing.

What conclusions can anyone draw other than the administration has a blank check given it by its base. Even the slightest chance that what is being investigated is true, and it is historic on a level previously unheard of.
And criminal at the same level.

But I also understand that the matter is so grave that to be entrenched with the current administration one must deny to the end and hope they have chosen wisely.

I just dont believe many of my friends and family have chosen wisely in that regard. But I would be happy to be wrong.

I truly feel that way, and I must leave it at that

[Doc]

So far we have a page of discussion of Trump, and the only criticism of him is stuff he's
etc .

What I find interesting is the Russia stuff was instigated largely in part by a dossier created by Russians and given to DEMOCRATS to ATTACK TRUMP. Additionally how quickly we forget the open mike gaff by Obama to Putin about how much easier things will be after he is re-elected. And who was it that scraped the the missles defense plan out of Europe in 2009?

back on original topic....initially when the US pulled out of the N Korea talks, people went nuts but because they spun it as a move of weakness. Turns out is was media hogwash and politics as usual. As a nonpolitician, turned out to be a move of STRENGTH, the exact opposite which is exactly why I wouldn't question Russsia to the G7/8.

[Catonahottinroof]

No we don’t. You may believe what the media has told you, but the proof is lacking in everything you state.
I’ll be the first one on an impeachment tirade if that is proven, but it’s been hot air so far. Especially considering the CIA propagated the dossier that ended up in the FBI’s hands to have a special counsel in the first place. It all reeks of politics.

I believe Trump at the very least has surrounded himself with people who draw support from Russian intelligence and it's oligarchy and and have used that to aid not only in his campaign but to manipulate foreign policy. We pretty much know that.

Until all the facts come out everything is just an opinion except what has been proven. But what's been proven and admitted to is pretty bad.

For instance, if a world leader can alter the truth after basically admitting to forming a misleading statement to cover up the appearance of malfeasance in a grave matter of national security, and his supporters refuse to question it, then there is not room for serious discussion. There is just zero defense for that type of thing.

What conclusions can anyone draw other than the administration has a blank check given it by its base. Even the slightest chance that what is being investigated is true, and it is historic on a level previously unheard of.
And criminal at the same level.

But I also understand that the matter is so grave that to be entrenched with the current administration one must deny to the end and hope they have chosen wisely.

I just dont believe many of my friends and family have chosen wisely in that regard. But I would be happy to be wrong.

I truly feel that way, and I must leave it at that

[CitizenBBN]

I believe Trump at the very least has surrounded himself with people who draw support from Russian intelligence and it's oligarchy and and have used that to aid not only in his campaign but to manipulate foreign policy. We pretty much know that.

No we don't know that at all.

B/c you're cherry picking without the perspective of what Obama did or other candidates or politicians, you're seeing it through a biased lens. Did some people around trump have some connections to Russian people? Sure they did.

Clinton went and got paid six figures by those people for speeches. Podesta's brother represents a Russian bank. These ties run through everyone in DC on both sides of the aisle. Sessions recused himself for having met the Russian Ambassador twice, but every Senator has met that same man, many more than once. It's the nature of DC.

As for Trump getting a "blank check" by his "base" that is false. it's that we simply see this as a very different situation than you. I see a "deep state" of career bureaucrats texting about "insurance policies" in case Trump won, people who 99% vote for and donate to Democrats, using a "dossier" paid for as oppo research by the DNC to start an "investigation" of a guy with very minimal ties to Russia, while THEIR candidate was getting tens of millions from multiple foreign nations including Russia and nothing at all was ever done, despite serious questions about policy decisions being influenced by that money.


We have a memo from a key Clinton person stating outright that the Clinton Global Initiative and the Foundation were basically money raising operations for the Clintons: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-bill-clinton-inc-hacked-memo-reveals-intersection-of-charity-and-personal-income/2016/10/26/3bf84bba-9b92-11e6-b3c9-f662adaa0048_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9ad76e9c794a

yet no investigation, despite NUMEROUS foreign powers being on those donor lists, and many of them not legally disclosed.

Where you see me "changing the subject", I see perspective. I'm a Libertarian, I know everyone in Washington is corrupt, so I look for corruption and power, not party.

But what I see is that the Democrats and many Republicans are all in on the scam, and they are selling you down the river and you don't even know it. They are claiming Trump is the one with all these foreign ties when any cursory review shows THEY are the ones with all those ties, all that corruption, and Trump's ties are minimal at best compared to their way of doing business for decades.

it's not a blank check, we just see these claims in the context of what's really going on in Washington. If you think the Russians and Putin had no influence when they are paying Bill Clinton a million dollars in speaking fees and donating millions to officials through shells and Foundations and suddenly they are allowed to buy 25% of the US uranium reserve, bluntly IMO you are being naive.

When Trump does a deal to sell critical national resources to the Russians you call me b/c that will be evidence of the need for an investigation of foreign influence. So far the only people in DC who need investigating are the ones screaming the loudest about Trump.

Methinks they doth protest too much.

[CitizenBBN]

Oh, and here's the truth of Russia and their influence:

what they want isn't for Candidate X or Y to win. They'd love that perhaps, have "their man" in the White House, but that's too much to engineer. What they want pragmatically is exactly what they are getting, division and navel gazing that keeps us distracted and keeps WHOEVER is in office unable to act decisively on the global stage.

They spent money helping Sanders, they fed anti-Trump info to the DNC, they attacked Hillary. What they want is controversy and division, and frankly those on the left are playing right into their hands. That's why their "bots" were supporting the candidates unlikely to win, but then they turn around and provide oppo research to the DNC too.

The willing puppets of Putin are, sadly, those who are so convinced Trump is his puppet.

[Doc]

yes, if Russia was going to put their man in, it would have been Commrade Bernie, not Dom Trump

[kingcat]

I don’t know that Bernie has business ties to Russia

I am confident that the investigation is justified and that guilt has already been found in Trump subordinates.

How far that reaches is the only unanswered question

But I don’t mean to offend anyone who might disagree. Still, there is enough bipartisan confidence in the ongoing investigation to support my concerns

[Doc]

but you did know he was a socialist, right?


Lots of people have business ties to Russia and other countries. I recall a past president pushing for a global economy and citizenship

[badrose]

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/06/trump-approval-rating-better-than-obama-and-reagan-at-same-point-in-their-presidencies/

[kingcat]

I fear an authoritarian government way more. And that is the path we're on.

[Catonahottinroof]

I agree with you there and both parties have brought us to that.

I fear an authoritarian government way more. And that is the path we're on.

[KeithKSR]

Trump continues to push an isolationist agenda railing against our allies while praising Russia. What is striking is that Putin has used trumps tariffs as an example of why US leadership is bad for the world.

Trump wants to ignore the annexation of Crimea and isolate America totally.

God help us all.

Trump isn't an isolationist at all. He does want fair trade, and ultimately wants free trade. The F in NAFTA is supposed to stand for free, but it has been free in one direction. For example Canada charges 270% tariffs on US dairy imports, the US charged nothing for Canadian steel. The leftist media think it is appalling that Trump has proposed a 25% tariff on Canadian steel to spur talks to get a more equitable deal.

Every G7 trading partner, China and Russia have similar types of trade deals that screw over Americans.

[CitizenBBN]

Trump isn't an isolationist at all. He does want fair trade, and ultimately wants free trade. The F in NAFTA is supposed to stand for free, but it has been free in one direction. For example Canada charges 270% tariffs on US dairy imports, the US charged nothing for Canadian steel. The leftist media think it is appalling that Trump has proposed a 25% tariff on Canadian steel to spur talks to get a more equitable deal.

Every G7 trading partner, China and Russia have similar types of trade deals that screw over Americans.

I'm the biggest free trade person you'll ever meet. I believe in it in my soul, and any first year micro economics student should be able to show how tariffs are economically the worst possible policy position you can take.

BUT, it's also true that what we have right now with other nations is NOT free trade. it's free on our end, but they still deny us markets and pressure our companies. Canada not as much as someone like China, but the issues are real and Trump isn't wrong.

Now, I don't support tariffs, but using tariffs as a political tool to get more free trade for the US, that I can't say is wrong. We'll see how he does, but he's not wrong that China for example has vastly exploited our trade relations, esp. the transfer of technology and intellectual property infringement. I it takes some saber rattling to get them to a better deal for us then that's a win.

Free trade is great. Wish we could get some on these areas, and maybe when Trump is done it will be better. We'll see.

[kingcat]

"To our allies: bipartisan majorities of Americans remain pro-free trade, pro-globalization & supportive of alliances based on 70 years of shared values," the Arizona senator tweeted. "Americans stand with you, even if our president doesn't."

..John McCain


“Russia shouldn’t be let back into the G8 until it changes the behavior that caused it to be expelled in the first place,
The fact is Russia still occupies Crimea and continues to fuel a violent conflict in eastern Ukraine. It maintains its support for the murderous Assad regime and aggressively uses disinformation and propaganda in an attempt to undermine, weaken, and divide the United States and our NATO allies. This kind of behavior should be condemned, not rewarded.”

..Ohio senator Rob Portman



“Putin is not our friend and he is not the President's buddy,” Sasse said. “He is a thug using Soviet-style aggression to wage a shadow war against America, and our leaders should act like it.”

..Nebraska senator Ben Sasse

"No, Russia should not be added to the G-7"

..Jeff Flake

[CitizenBBN]

"To our allies: bipartisan majorities of Americans remain pro-free trade, pro-globalization & supportive of alliances based on 70 years of shared values," the Arizona senator tweeted. "Americans stand with you, even if our president doesn't."

..John McCain

“Russia shouldn’t be let back into the G8 until it changes the behavior that caused it to be expelled in the first place,
The fact is Russia still occupies Crimea and continues to fuel a violent conflict in eastern Ukraine. It maintains its support for the murderous Assad regime and aggressively uses disinformation and propaganda in an attempt to undermine, weaken, and divide the United States and our NATO allies. This kind of behavior should be condemned, not rewarded.”

..Ohio senator Rob Portman

“Putin is not our friend and he is not the President's buddy,” Sasse said. “He is a thug using Soviet-style aggression to wage a shadow war against America, and our leaders should act like it.”

..Nebraska senator Ben Sasse

"No, Russia should not be added to the G-7"

..Jeff Flake

And what did any one of those men do when Crimea was annexed? Did they try to get sanctions, take any action?

Fact: Trump has done more, but not enough, to bolster the Ukraine against Russia than the previous admin or any of these senators. All they did was political hand wringing. Prove me wrong.

Besides its not clear what Trump wants. Could be a bargaining chip, could be nothing. W him you never know.

[CitizenBBN]

BTW, no one has to convince conservatives that Russia is an enemy. We were saying it while Hillary and Obama were funneling billions there with the reset, when they backed Syria, took the Crimea, etc and those on the left who had the power at the time did nothing.

Also when mitt Romney made that point and Obama and the media laughed at him.

I don't want them in the g7, but let's see what happens. So far Trump has stood up to them far more than Obama, no reason to think that will change.

But it is evidence which directly disproves the notion he is somehow beholden to them. That's proving to be pretty far fetched based on his actions.

[kingcat]

Fact: Trump has done more, but not enough, to bolster the Ukraine against Russia than the previous admin or any of these senators. All they did was political hand wringing. Prove me wrong.



It appears some very bright people in the Republican party believe they could do so.
This just served to point out that they completely disagree with you.

Im way too slow at typing to debate a "schooled" debater..and I lack the endurance to do so on a forum with mainly Trump supporters. :)
I'm only stating my opinion which happens in this instance to have wide and bipartisan support, albeit elsewhere.


“The opinions that are held with passion are always those for which no good ground exists; indeed the passion is the measure of the holders lack of rational conviction. Opinions in politics and religion are almost always held passionately.”

[Catonahottinroof]

Most of the folks in this thread debating you aren’t Trump supporters, we’re Libertarians...please pay better attention 😁

It appears some very bright people in the Republican party believe they could do so.
This just served to point out that they completely disagree with you.

Im way too slow at typing to debate a "schooled" debater..and I lack the endurance to do so on a site with mainly Trump supporters. :)

“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”

[kingcat]

Most of the folks in this thread debating you aren’t Trump supporters, we’re Libertarians...please pay better attention ��

:)

[KeithKSR]

"To our allies: bipartisan majorities of Americans remain pro-free trade, pro-globalization & supportive of alliances based on 70 years of shared values," the Arizona senator tweeted. "Americans stand with you, even if our president doesn't."

..John McCain


“Russia shouldn’t be let back into the G8 until it changes the behavior that caused it to be expelled in the first place,
The fact is Russia still occupies Crimea and continues to fuel a violent conflict in eastern Ukraine. It maintains its support for the murderous Assad regime and aggressively uses disinformation and propaganda in an attempt to undermine, weaken, and divide the United States and our NATO allies. This kind of behavior should be condemned, not rewarded.”

..Ohio senator Rob Portman



“Putin is not our friend and he is not the President's buddy,” Sasse said. “He is a thug using Soviet-style aggression to wage a shadow war against America, and our leaders should act like it.”

..Nebraska senator Ben Sasse

"No, Russia should not be added to the G-7"

..Jeff Flake


Refusing to negotiate with the Russians isn’t going to get them out of the Ukraine or Crimea, invasions which occurred under Obama’s watch with no action from Obama. The best hope of getting them out of those regions is at the negotiating table.

McCain is an idiot if he thinks what we have with G7 allies is anywhere near free trade. We allow them free trade while they levy huge tariffs against American products. That is no bueno.

[KeithKSR]

It appears some very bright people in the Republican party believe they could do so.
This just served to point out that they completely disagree with you.

Im way too slow at typing to debate a "schooled" debater..and I lack the endurance to do so on a site with mainly Trump supporters. :)
I'm only stating my opinion which happens in this instance to have wide and bipartisan support, albeit elsewhere.


“The opinions that are held with passion are always those for which no good ground exists; indeed the passion is the measure of the holders lack of rational conviction. Opinions in politics and religion are almost always held passionately.”

You didn’t quote a single bright Republican, you quoted guys who are RINOs.

[KeithKSR]

I fear an authoritarian government way more. And that is the path we're on.

Authoritarian is where we were headed under Obama’s pen and phone.

[kingcat]

You didn’t quote a single bright Republican, you quoted guys who are RINOs.

McCain was your candidate for the leader of the free world at one time. So an error in judgement is a possibility.

Or didnt you vote for the senator? ;)

But anyway. I will back out of this discussion. No offense intended
I cant defend myself or the other messengers that get shot down, and I refuse to wave a white flag. So here I sit.

[kingcat]

Id like to add that, I tried my darndest at one time to shoot down John McCain,, what he stood for and sadly, even his patriotism and love for this country. I read every negative Democratic blog and every made up story out there. You know what I was left with?

Sarah Palin. The greatest political gift the dems were ever handed. Granted it was a mistake on his part as he admits.

But the Senator is a patriot and a hero. And he obviously cares more for this country than his party affiliation. As he has but a few more days on this earth it would be wise to listen to what he has to say. A good start would be my signature in this thread.
I guarantee you it comes from his heart and the wisdom born of his experience.
One would do well to listen and learn his meaning.

I just wanted to make known my respect for the man. And that respect started way back when our Potus was still a reality TV star.

He would have made a great president.
Just as most of you said.

[CitizenBBN]

Good video here about the "cult" thing. How it's now a "cult" if you support Trump. It implies a mindlessness, that no sane person can possibly agree and support him in a reasonable way.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/5797681724001/?#sp=show-clips