S***hole Comment Was Surveilled From My Daughter.

[blueboss]

My daughter served in the Navy and was stationed on a ship which was deployed in the Red Sea for most of her sea duty.

After serving four years and her service was coming to an end she got a ride on a chopper to Djibouti, which was our closest land base from where her ship was deployed. She ended up having to stay in Djibouti for a couple of weeks waiting on a flight to rotate back to the US via Dubai.

Anyway, she called me from a satellite phone to brief me on her itinerary to get back home. In our conversation I asked her how Djibouti was. She said, and I quote, “Daddy, this place is a real s***hole”!! I was like “that’s harsh” and she said “you don’t understand, this place is a disgusting s***hole... its sad”.

She went on to say the base was the nicest thing in the entire country and that was because they actually had wooden floors in their tent/barracks with latrines and fresh water available in the showers.

She brought me back a refrigerator magnet which still hangs on my refrigerator.

Who knew at the time Donald Trump was listening in?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CitizenBBN]

I've nearly started a thread on this a couple of times. IMO there are two areas of topic involved.

1) The comment itself. It was a closed door meeting, but with the enemy present, so that's dumb, but the question is, other than being politically dumb, is it true?

It may be offensive coming from a President, even in private, but can anyone say Haiti and the Dominican Republic don't fit the definition? If they don't, two of the poorest, most crime ridden, corrupt and illiterate nations on earth, do we just take the word itself out of the dictionary? If they aren't that kind of place then surely there isn't one.

Heck, we just used it to describe East St. Louis in another thread. Those of us who have been all agreed, but if it's said publicly by an elected official is that so different? Is it OK for us to say but not them even though we all know the truth?

That doesn't mean there arent' a lot of good people there, I guarantee there are, but it does describe some places on this earth, and not by race but by metrics like literacy and crime and poverty.

and

2) it underscores a fundamental question about immigration, and I'll use a basketball recruiting example. Are we using the offer in order to build the best and most talented team or do we extend them to the people who it may help the most personally given their current situation?

Is it to attract the best and brightest we possibly can, or is it to assist those with the most need? While there is some overlap, where those we assist with need become best and brightest, that IMO is the fundamental question this comment goes to, and it's less about right and wrong and more about what we want as a nation.

Trump is "America First", and that implies you go get the best people, regardless of race. The influx of very bright engineers and professionals from Asia springs to mind. The alternative is to use America to provide sanctuary to the downtrodden, which is much of our current policy, where 100s of thousands are admitted as refugees but we limit the number of professionals who would come here and compete pretty severely.

Which do we want? The truth, regardless of which is the right policy, is that a lot of Americans think we do what Trump proposes. The rest of America is deeply offended by that idea, but Trump didn't invent these thoughts and beliefs, he merely became a spokesman for them.

He's tactless and petulant and childish, but the inconvenient truth is that he's far from alone in his beliefs, it looks to be about half the country or so agrees, and it's also true that those beliefs are increasingly diametrically opposed to the beliefs of the other half, who think that half is basically evil.

Going to be a fun few decades to watch this play out.

[CitizenBBN]

And to your OP, of course people use that term all the time. Of course we don't have the ignorance to use it among people who want to have us fired and/or hung. lol

[suncat05]

Many of us here have been to many places on this earth that we can pretty well describe with that one word our current POTUS may have used.
I myself have some doubts as to what may actually have been said in that room. But if he did say it, then I'm okay with it, because he is correct. Why do I say that? Because I have been to some places where that very apt description is correct.
And I don't care if this offends anyone. The truth is the truth, and it needs to be spoken more, not less, or said in softer, nicer words. Tell it like it is, not how you wish it was, because THAT is not the truth.

[CitizenBBN]

His supporters voted for him b/c he says it like he sees it. Now it's far from politic, and it isn't even smart from the standpoint of getting off message and shooting himself in the foot, which he does better than anyone I've ever seen ever, in public service or private business, but it is hard IMO to argue that a country like Haiti doesn't fit the overall definition.

I'm sorry it does, but I swear I didn't have anything to do with it. East St. Louis fits that bill too by American standards, and I didn't do that either. But East St. Louis is likely at or above the norm for a lot of places in this world too.

And IMO that's separate from the discussion of whether we want to have or support or whatever immigration from those places. Thus why I see this as two topics. One is what he said, the other is what that means for the real questions about our immigration ideology.

[jazyd]

He Told it like it is. They are shithole countries. Education, government, basic necessities, compare it to any of the scadanadian countries. No comparisons.

And Durbin claims a lot more was said than was, he has lied in the past. And the context of what was said and how is not how Durbin said it.

Trump is learning, the enemy will lie regardless if it is a private meeting or not. Of course Durbin cut his throat because his proposal was just sunk, period

And how soon Durbin and the left media forgets a certain VP who said and was caught...' This is a big F.....g deal". Of course that VP is now offended

I would be willing to bet what little I have that shithole is not nearly as bad as what has been said by past presidents

[Doc]

His detetractors will take any comment he makes as the most uncouth problematic offensive thing ever uttered so why get cranked about it? He could have said it's a beautiful country rife with poverty and those who don't like him would be all over him for that.

If those places don't want to be shitholes, maybe they should do something about it like elect officials who don't scam and skim money for themselves. Do thing to improve the country rather than line their pockets, etc. These shitholes have huge tourist revenue potential yet they squander it by allowing the politicians to become fat cats

[CitizenBBN]

If those places don't want to be shitholes, maybe they should do something about it like elect officials who don't scam and skim money for themselves. Do thing to improve the country rather than line their pockets, etc. These shitholes have huge tourist revenue potential yet they squander it by allowing the politicians to become fat cats

Great point.

Countries that have succeeded in this world are by and large the nations that have embraced the rule of law versus the rule of men. Not all, some have made it due to natural resources, etc., and some have had successful quasi-benevolent rulers, but most have gotten there by embracing the basic ideals of good government.

And nations have had revolutions to get those things from time to time, while others evolved to that point. Some have both.

And it's more difficult to get there for some places than others, but yes in the end it's NOT AMERICA'S FAULT and I won't feel guilty that our forefathers had the commitment to liberty that gave us this great nation. They could have been corrupt SOBs who took advantage, but instead they risked and in many cases sacrificed their fortunes and even lives to give us this Great Experiment.

I'm grateful for their actions, and the actions of many that came thereafter that established the rule of law in a world of corruption and privilege. I feel blessed, but I don't feel guilty for it.

[KeithKSR]

Where was the outcry when Obama called Libya a "sh*tshow" in public? Or Lindsey Graham called these third world countries hellholes before Congress?

[Doc]

Where was the outcry when Obama called Libya a "sh*tshow" in public? Or Lindsey Graham called these third world countries hellholes before Congress?

That was different. It was Obama. He wasn't a Russian operative, racist, masoginistic bully,......or a republican

[UKHistory]

I would need to read or see Obama and the context to say for certain

Maybe it is because the comment describing a failed state, a former enemy and terrorist sponsor was more a commentary on Libya’s government and ability to rule rather than use that description as part of a test to determine immigration eligibility.

Over the years I have described countries and parts of America as **** holes. I don’t know if I have used the exact term **** hole but I can say I have disparaged other countries and looked down on them. And by them I mean a government more so than people. But I have said a thing or two to folks here in service jobs that might seem rude after receiving poor service or poor cleaning conditions.

I am sure some might describe those comments as prejudicial or racist.

That said a president needs to be better in his terms and and his intent on establishing US policy.

Need more time to discuss that I dont have now. Trumps words have impact negativley on US relations and our world standing.

[Catonahottinroof]

I agree with nearly all your comments.
The only caveat I would add is the media also needs to be accurate in its reporting, which has been questionable at best.

I would need to read or see Obama and the context to say for certain

Maybe it is because the comment describing a failed state, a former enemy and terrorist sponsor was more a commentary on Libya’s government and ability to rule rather than use that description as part of a test to determine immigration eligibility.

Over the years I have described countries and parts of America as **** holes. I don’t know if I have used the exact term **** hole but I can say I have disparaged other countries and looked down on them. And by them I mean a government more so than people. But I have said a thing or two to folks here in service jobs that might seem rude after receiving poor service or poor cleaning conditions.

I am sure some might describe those comments as prejudicial or racist.

That said a president needs to be better in his terms and and his intent on establishing US policy.

Need more time to discuss that I dont have now. Trumps words have impact negativley on US relations and our world standing.

[UKHistory]

for full disclosure the comment to the staff at a cafeteria was after finding a dead fly on a donut and the person refused to allow me to get another donut.

I told the person, in America we have a higher standard of food service than what you might be used to. Maybe in your country it acceptable--it is not here.

[CitizenBBN]

I
Need more time to discuss that I dont have now. Trumps words have impact negativley on US relations and our world standing.

Except Trump didn't say them for public consumption. What was said was in a meeting of 6 senior officials trying to discuss a compromise deal.

Why is Durbin not getting any blame in this?

Do any of us think that politicians don't say the same ugly things we all say in closed doors from time to time? In order to REALLY have bipartistanship, that thing everyone claims they want, you have to be able to have HONEST discussions, yes?

So in a closed door meeting of senior Senators and the President, trying to hammer out a deal, the PResident says exactly what he thinks about immigration priorities, like why we are giving favored status to nations that have very few educated people while we put the clamps on immigration of trained professionals from nations like India et al..

What's so wrong with that? First, it's not racist simply b/c the other nation in question happens to be black or Hispanic. They are ****holes by any meaning of the word and it doesn't make you racist to say so, esp. in private. Trump's point, and the point, is the broader point that we are running our immigration policy to benefit people based on their level of despair and not using it to recruit the best and brightest who want to come here.

Guys, you can call that whatever you want, and throw "racist" on it even though it's untrue (does anyone here think History is a racist for calling some place a s***hole, or anyone else?), but that is a POLICY question. You may hate the other side for it, but it's a legitimate discussion.

So in a closed meeting, with Trump expressing, if very colorfully, what is a legitimate policy position on immigration, he finds himelf outed by the side he was negotiating with for short term political points.

How is that good faith negotiation? Trump is right, if he can't be honest with Durbin et al then they really have no interest in bipartisanship or making a good deal, and the fault is theirs.

So why isn't Durbin being called out? The President MUST have the ability to communicate and negotiate without everything becoming public. We all know that politicians on both sides likely cuss like sailors and say mean and even vile things behind closed doors, stories of it are rife in Washington.

Durbin betrayed that process to try to gain an edge in the political battle, and that's exactly why "bipartisanship" is dead in Washington, b/c both sides do that instead of trying to close the doors and work out a deal with honest negotiation.

[CitizenBBN]

And History, looking down on a nation's government rife with corruption and graft is perfectly OK.

This "everything is OK" culture has gone to the point that we should indulge and condone and not call out corruption that represses people. It's outrageous.

The truth is those nations are worthy of derision and if they don't like it they should stop being corrupt and observe the rule of law and basic human liberty.

And we should call it out in this country too wherever we see it too.

[KeithKSR]

Dems are just making an attempt to cause a shitstorm out of nothing, because they don't want a DACA deal. I say fine, don't do the deal and start deportation procedures. DACA was not a legal executive order and was set to be overturned by SCOTUS, as it had already overturned the other Obama deferred action executive order.

[UKHistory]

A good dialogue here. Candid conversations should be allowed to occur im the white noise with everybody tweeting or leaking it.

That said why was Durbin and graham so taken aback at trumps time and remarks?

Is it political grandstanding? Maybe. But I will tend to think the worst of trump because the president has failed to show me anything I would consider presidential. Or decent honestly. Trump said he was open to a deal and clearly rejected this one.

This was a private conversation but the president at every turn has worked wonder to strain our alliances in Europe and Asia and inching us closer to a nuclear confrontation.

Trump because of his own poor ability to communicate effectively with most Americans and the world will not be given the benefit of the doubt. Not after sayin that perfectly nice people marched with nazis and the klan in Charlottesville.

If the KKK wanted to honor the 1966 team, I would not go. Because it is the Klan.

Being for border security is not racist. Being for immigration law to be enforced is not racist. And some on the left would call anyone supportimg those positions racist. I get that. Trump most definitley judges people by their skin their size their religion their bank account their religion. He judges and mocks everyone who doesn’t kiss his supersized behind.

But this messenger is an insult to our intelligence, Christian values and American democratic principles.

We need to have real immigration law reform. Some of that is going to mean illegals will or should be allowed to stay. Some people need to be deported.

We have non citizens in the armed forces. That is garbage. Either don’t let them join or grant citizenship to them and their families.

It is horribly unfair to have turn d blind eye to illegal immigrants for decades. But we need comprehensive reform.

DACA has to be looked at compassionately. If America is the only country a person knows and was brought here as a kid without a violent history of crime, maybe those folks should be welcomed.

Many people have announced themselves to ICE and would like to become citizens. For those who have not bothered, u am less sympathetic.

As for legal immigration, I think the language test is bogus. I teach ESL on my own time from people who came from **** hole countries. Some of these folks would agree with that characterization.

I think a lottery is not a bad idea either.

Being a haven for folks who need this country (who have been vetted) is not a bad thing. Germany isn’t a **** hole but it has caused untold misery. If the people represent the country no German should ever be allowed a voice again. It made the world a house of horrors at one time. Yet if not for German immigrants having a son we wouldnt even be having this conversation.

So whether trumps words should have been made public the fact is his position, hidden in the darkness or in the light of openness, denote a short sighted and ignorant view of human beings and what it means to be American.

[Catonahottinroof]

The comment about not wanting to see sausage being made comes to mind. I’ve seen harsh racial comments attributed to LBJ during these types of meetings too. Short of a recording or transcript of the event, there is no way to verify what is actually the truth and political rivals speaking in non truths or half truths is more than certifiable.

[UKHistory]

I thought of LBJ as well. In his tone, stance and approach to government the anti-LBJ. The coarse language and bluntness is really LBJ

[kingcat]

I thought of LBJ as well. In his tone, stance and approach to government the anti-LBJ. The coarse language and bluntness is really LBJ

A different day and time, and not at all relevant. Except that LBJ was a powerful political figure before, after, and during the civil rights movement.
The N word was acceptable not long before that.

One would hope we have advanced from that period...

[Catonahottinroof]

Relavent because it’s become the word of others who said both LBJ and Trump said it. This situation is no different and those saying they did have prior history of bending the truth.....at a minimum.


A different day and time, and not at all relevant. Except that LBJ was a powerful political figure before, after, and during the civil rights movement.
The N word was acceptable not long before that.

One would hope we have advanced from that period...

[blueboss]

On a lighter note it should be noted that Assembly Hall in Bloomington IN.is referred to as a s***hole more often than not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CitizenBBN]

A different day and time, and not at all relevant. Except that LBJ was a powerful political figure before, after, and during the civil rights movement.
The N word was acceptable not long before that.

One would hope we have advanced from that period...

We have. Trump didn't utter anything racially insulting. People want to turn it into that, but it's not what he said.

Or were we all racist for talking about East St. Louis that way, etc.?

Trump's comments were supposedly in reaction to the position that we have to keep giving protected, priority status to people from certain countries like Haiti and El Salvador and Rwanda. He threw NOrway out there b/c he had been meeting with their head of state the same day IIRC. But his point is we should be taking engineers and doctors and giving them priority instead of people who are from destitute countries simply b/c they are destitute.

Anyone can for sure disagree with the position, but the only thing "racist" about it is that it's NOT supporting a global affirmative action program for the poorest nations. It's the same as saying that anyone against affirmative action is a racist. It's a glib and powerful response, but it's untrue.

Is Trump "racist"? Maybe, maybe not, but the only things he's said publicly are things that get called racism a lot but are not in fact racism on its face.

[Doc]

Hey, you can call Obama care "a big ####ing deal" if you act presidential (or vice-presidential)...but a call a shitholes a shitholes and it's an issue if you don't do it presidentually

[UKHistory]

I need to research this but I understand that a high percentage of immigrants coming from Africa are very well educated. If that is accurate then some of the best educated folks from over there are coming here. So the “avoid **** hole” policy decision might not help get the best and brightest here.

This is anecdotal but I think trump has brings out the worst in folks. I believe that trump has empowered the nazis and klan like Louisiana’s David Duke.

Another incident that I think was intensified was the killing of an Indian engineer in Kansas as someone thought he was a Muslim

In a building across from he White House I saw a sign hanging from a window that said no Muslims.

I think trump is helping to foster this hatred and prejudice. He has raised temperature and lowered the bar for decency and behavior.

The bigger problem is his autocratic tendencies are a clear and present danger to our nation staying a democracy.

[CitizenBBN]

I need to research this but I understand that a high percentage of immigrants coming from Africa are very well educated. If that is accurate then some of the best educated folks from over there are coming here. So the “avoid **** hole” policy decision might not help get the best and brightest here.

This is anecdotal but I think trump has brings out the worst in folks. I believe that trump has empowered the nazis and klan like Louisiana’s David Duke.

Another incident that I think was intensified was the killing of an Indian engineer in Kansas as someone thought he was a Muslim

In a building across from he White House I saw a sign hanging from a window that said no Muslims.

I think trump is helping to foster this hatred and prejudice. He has raised temperature and lowered the bar for decency and behavior.

The bigger problem is his autocratic tendencies are a clear and present danger to our nation staying a democracy.

History, I respect the heck out of you, but I simply cannot fathom how you are OK with Obama, arguably the most autocratic President since the turn of the last century, and think Trump is being an autocrat.

What has he done that is autocratic?

You point to anti-Muslim issues somehow brought out by Trump but what about the dead cops we could lay at the feet of Obama just as easily if not easier?

IMO your perception is colored by the media onslaught against Trump. He's evil, he's racist, he's whatever. It's so slanted it's comical.

I do think he brings out the worst from many on the Left, who have gone so far as to wish a sitting President to be killed in public, but IMO that's actually not about Trump. He makes them even more mad b/c of his personality, but what really pisses them off is the discovery that those who disagree with their liberal ideology aren't just some tiny fringe part of the nation but actually are enough in numbers they got a President elected.

That's what they hate, that's why the attacks. They called Romney a racist, McCain, everyone. Trump is just an easier target b/c he's so blunt and even childish.

Where is the outrage over Obama saying flat out he's going to bypass Congress to get things done? The most transparent Administration in history set a record for the number of prosecutions for leaks, where's the fear about transparency in government?

No, Trump is childish and boorish and generally an ass as a person, but factually in a year he's done absolutely nothing, not one thing, that is a "clear and present danger" to any part of our democracy, not one single thing. He has been vastly less autocratic and secretive than Obama, yet everyone keeps saying he's a dictator.

What has he done that proves that theat? He's had a year, surely there are all these examples right? even his executive orders that got held up by doing some serious venue shopping, he never said "to hell with the courts we're going to do it anyway" did he? No, he appealed to SCOTUS like he should, and they gave him the go ahead.

I honestly just don't get it. I'm not calling anyone out, I just don't get how Trump hasn't proven that those fears are totally unfounded. He's followed the laws of the land more than his predecessor so far.

[CitizenBBN]

Re Africa, the point he was making was about giving priority status to nations due to their poverty or human rights conditions, not just immigration from Africa generally.

And that's a fair question IMO, and not a racist one. Why does El Salvador get priority but maybe a nation like Venezuela or the Ukraine or Georgia don't? There's plenty of suffering all over the world, why do certain countries go first?

It's a valid policy question, and it wasn't about not taking anyone from those nations, but why they have protected status and we then make it so much harder for other nations who also have good people wanting to come here.

What Trump has proposed is a merit based system. If a doctor from Africa wants to come in he'll beat out a white guy from Norway in that system, so what's racist there?

The implied racism is the assumption that those coming from Africa will be poor and illiterate and the mostly white immigrants will be doctors. if that's not true and African immigrants are in fact well educated then in a merit system they'll be fine.

He's tactless beyond belief, but the position of a merit based system is what his opponents really fear, and it's a simple reason: those people are a lot more likely to vote for conservatives.

[UKHistory]

I was not an obama fan. I didn’t like his use of executive orders. The truth is obama was too Inexperienced. His inability to work with the senate hurt the country. But the senate did not show the office of President an appropriate level of respect.

Did I take a stand against obama as vehemently? No. And I can be critical of obama and believe his foreign policy had grave shortcomings. (Edited to reflect I didn’t agree with Obama’s naïveté foreign policy. Created problems and did notballeviAte issues other administrations kicked down the road m)

That president is out of office and not a threat to the republic. Trump is in power and is a threat.

Worry number 1: trump is a bad winner. He wins the election and questions his margin of victory. He begins running for re-election the day after he wins. My eyes widen. His establishment of an election commission to look at voter fraud is a worry. Then he disbands it (and I was about to come on here and say maybe I was wrong about this) but he says DHS will oversee voting concerns going forward.

DHS worries me anyway. Trump using this SS in waiting org to potentially suppress voter turnout concerns me. Trump had said he might not accept a2016 election that he lost. What about a 2020 election when he has the army?

Worry#2: trumps personal style and his American first position which appears hard on friends but soft on enemies is counter productive to long term US interests. In one year he had hurt US relations with NATO and isn’t welcomed in England?

There are limits to a super power. Trump doesn’t understand ow to leverage our friends to bolster our weaknesses. He pushed a foreign leader of another nation. Putting America first sometimes requires us to support other countries and show them respect.

Key ambassadorships not filled. He brags this cost saving. It is reckless.

Worry #3: trumps position on telling police to not worry about the safety of prisoners, pardons no sheriff joe, selecting individuals not all qualified to be judges.

Worry#4: deep personal ties to Russia politically and economically. My book is coming out n a few weeks.

Worry#5.: trump doesn’t understand america’s Political system. In April 2017, trump lamented the arcane practices of the senate. It isn’t just parliamentary procedures, he doesn’t want bipartisanship. He wants a gang to rubber stamp his agenda. All presidents want this. He wants it more. If he did know the senate like LBJ, we might be in worse trouble.

Worry#6: the cult of personality around trump is what we have historically seen around 20th century dictators. Tom Cotton is an idealistic hopeful Joseph goerbels without the uniform. There are others who get in line and this scares me.

Worry #7. Trump openly feuds with the press and undermines it. Press is not perfect and is not always objective. His treatment of the press as an enemy of fbthenpublicbis dangerous to a democracy.

Worry# 8: people on this board have often referred to the democrats or liberals as an enemy. Before trump I never saw an opposing American political party as an enemy.

Rush Limbaugh and his conservative talking heads painted liberals as enemy #1 when the Soviet Union collapsed.

That view is counterproductive and after years we are seeing a angry liberal push back.

As someone who fears the republic may fall to trump and his deconstructionists, I might not be one to lead the call for civility.

But calling dick Durbin the enemy hurts the core of our country.

I am sure there is more but typing on an iPad is not the best experience.

[CitizenBBN]

History, most of those points apply far more to Obama than Trump, and while you weren't necessarily a huge fan of Obama and yes he's gone, did you consider him to be a threat to democracy as you do Trump?

If so then that's consistent, but if not then you are being impacted by Trump the person rather than looking at the actions.

Worry 1: You really think he has "control" over the army? That he's going to stage a coup? I'm sorry but this is just giving in to the histrionics of Hollywood and the extreme Left. The same as when the extreme right was convinced Obama was going to try to engineer a third term with some kind of coup or threat.

Remember all the concern about DHS under Obama buying massive amounts of ammo? I'm concerned about it just from the same standpoint as you, that I'm concerned about DHS generally, but the chances of that being part of a big plan for Obama to stage a coup was beyond strained.

Same thing here.

Now, re voter fraud, sorry but I think there is a LOT more voter fraud in this country than we know about. When California is giving out IDs to illegal immigrants, and they have a few million of them, it's not insane to think that maybe 10% of them went and voted, b/c they could do it without having to do anything but show up at the polls as I understand it.

Vote buying and absentee ballot fraud have always gone on, and we always pretend like it's not an issue, but it may be. We just never look very hard at it. When I ran the numbers Trump isn't completely insane to say maybe 2-3 million illegal votes were cast. I think that number is high, but several hundred thousand nationwide? Very easy to support as possible, and some studies have estimated millions.

Having us look at that isn't suppressing the vote, other than suppressing illegal votes.

Worry #2: It's widely reported that US Presidents for some time have pushed NATO and Europe on their lack of meeting spending goals for defense. Trump was just brash enough to do it publicly. OK that's a big step, but he's not wrong, and Americans are tired of footing the bills. NATO has yet to collapse or even have any real issues from it. Nothing blew up or broke despite the predictions.

Worry #3: Presidents always have some judge selections that are questionable, and nothing Trump has said is any more worrisome than Obama's near endorsement of entities calling for cops to be killed. Not saying you're OK with Obama either, but the point is that the nation didn't collapse from it with Obama, and they wont' from Trump either.

Worry #4: Not sure what this means. Are you publishing a book?

Worry #5: Lamenting the arcane rules of the Senate isn't exactly new, or even wrong. Those rules have built up over time, none of them are actually in the Constitution, and Harry Reid blew up one of the biggest ones by fiat and we all lived through it.

Which President in history ever wanted bipartisanship? Obama rammed through Obamacare without it, Bush did the same, etc. IMO this is a non-worry. Every president does this, it's the normal balance of powers, and I see nothing Trump has done that is at all unusual. You'll worry a lot if you worry about what is the normal course of business in Washington IMO.

Worry #6: What cult of personality? More than Obama had? Oh please, TRump has had the least support and least closed ranks of anyone in office maybe ever. Hillary's people all jump on swords for her, Obama's people too. Obama's Attorney General repeatedly buried investigations and questions and Trump can't get them to do squat that he wants.

There's no cult of personality around him, certainly no more than any successful politician. His administration leaks like a strainer, the GOP can't get itself in line on anything, the media was just yesterday actually disappointed the sitting PResident is in good health, and the worry is he'll become some kind of dictator?

Obama, the Clintons, now there's a group organization that put the individual ahead of the law.

Trump is a lot of things, but he's shown nothing that really should inspire actual worry about him somehow threatening our system of government. There's no evidence or specific actions, just a lot of fear and worry based on claims that have no support, esp. when compared to prior Administrations.

[UKHistory]

Worry 4 is in relation to the trumps ties to Russia. My reference to a book is in jest and partly I didn’t want to rehash the whole Russian thing.

I am legally not allowed to write a book that has not been vetted by white house counsel regarding my duties the past 12 months.

Trump worries me far more than Obama. Just does. I am quick to admit my opinion vs fact and hope I am wrong about trump.

But a man who responds to US diplomats kicked out of Russia by thanking the Russians for cutting pay Roll not only is unpatriotic but a moron.

And worryingly by about Obama’s today is like worrying about Florida UConn winning a title.

The damage is done. They are not a threat. Not a perfect analogy.

[UKHistory]

I am hitting specific points in a disjointed fashion. Obama staff worshipped. Him very true. Trump cult of personality that worries me comes from the rallies, the lock her up chants, people cheering joh McCain’s brain tumor.

Trump and his strongest supporters remind me of goose steppers. He is autocratic in his demeanor. That worries me.

And politicians are so used to pushing buttons to say their foe is horrible.

In this case I think the fears of trump are justified

As always hope I am wrong.

[Doc]

I am hitting specific points in a disjointed fashion. Obama staff worshipped. Him very true. Trump cult of personality that worries me comes from the rallies, the lock her up chants, people cheering joh McCain’s brain tumor.

Trump and his strongest supporters remind me of goose steppers. He is autocratic in his demeanor. That worries me.

And politicians are so used to pushing buttons to say their foe is horrible.

In this case I think the fears of trump are justified

As always hope I am wrong.

Seriously? You see the videos of school kids chanting "hmm hmm Obama"? Lookks like something from Jim Jones or Divid Koresh. It was classic indoctrination/cult worship crap

[UKHistory]

Doc, I have not seen the videos but will look for them. I remember some video link posted here where a stupid celebrity “pledged allegiance to Obama’”.

That was troubling. I will look for it. Barry doesn’t meant have that cult now. It ain’t like he is trying to stay in power.

Based on what I have read it was his weakness to not point a finger at trump ties to Russia early enough. Sounds like Mitch was complicit and that saddens me. Weakness not an autocrat—in spite of the many executI’ve orders.

I am not a fan and don’t think his decisions were always in US long term interests. Better man and smarter man than trump.

Trump is a traitor. He is the guy joe McCarthy was looking for. May be joe was time traveler and he was looking for trump and kept shifting in the time continuum.

[UKHistory]

I know many here don’t agree with I my views on the 45th president.

That is fine. Will every defense of trump be to point to Hillary or Obama? To heck with them both. I wasn’t a fan of ether. And neither can hurt us now.

But at some point trump must be evaluated on his own and compared to other presidents.

You may disagree with me but I am going to focus on him. And if he does something I like, or event don’t hate. I will say so.

[CitizenBBN]

I know many here don’t agree with I my views on the 45th president.

That is fine. Will every defense of trump be to point to Hillary or Obama? To heck with them both. I wasn’t a fan of ether. And neither can hurt us now.

But at some point trump must be evaluated on his own and compared to other presidents.

You may disagree with me but I am going to focus on him. And if he does something I like, or event don’t hate. I will say so.

As you said, he has to be compared to other Presidents.

If his actions aren't out of the norm for those past presidents, then can you criticize him for those actions or see them as a threat to to the nation?

That's why the comparisons to Obama. If Trump's "cult of personality" wasn't even as big as Obama's then how is it a threat? it wasn't as big as Reagan's either, or Kennedy's by about 10000000 miles. So how is it a problem?

IF Hillary's ties to Russia are deeper and more disturbing than Trump's how is he a "traitor"?

You are simply convinced of the most extreme accusations against him, as if they are proven and over. There's more evidence the DNC conspired with Russian "sources" to make up attacks on Trump to get him investigated than there is that Trump did anything. we KNOW the DNC paid Russian "sources" through Fusion to make up the dossier. we KNOW Bill Clinton was paid at least $500K directly by interests in Uranium One.

I know you see that as deflecting, but it's not. It's pointing out that the sources you are relying on for these claims are utterly discredited by their self interest and their own documented actions.

To borrow your McCarthy reference, IMO if there's any "traitor" in our ranks you need to look to the Manchurian Candidate, and question the person who is most loudly proclaiming they aren't pro-Russian, b/c so far that's the person who has received all the money from them.

There's no evidence he's done anything autocratic compared to any other President, and less than some really recent ones, yet he's going to seize the government somehow. There's no evidence he is a puppet of Putin and all the claims are coming from political enemies that have exchanged millions with Russians including Putin backed companies, but he's got to be a puppet of Putin.

Everyone is entitled to their views, but I just don't see any evidence to support the worst thoughts about him or where he's going.

He's a complete ass, and a child, and immature and offensive, and all those things, but I have yet to see in a year him do anything that undermines the nation in some way that is anything more than normal disagreements about policy direction.

[CitizenBBN]

To elaborate on the Traitor thing, it was Hillary who came up with the "reset with Russia" where we used State and Commerce to encourage investment there, new tech, opening of trade, etc. Her charity received millions from abroad, tens of millions in fact, and money directly from Putin backed companies.

But when Trump proposes better ties to Russia to fight terrorism, or foolishly even compliments Putin, that's sign of being a traitor.

Traitors don't come out supporting the enemy they're working for, doesn't work that way. They'll come at you sideways, and Trump is an open book and a half.

Now I think BOTH sides have too many ties to foreign nations. Seems everyone on both campaigns at one time or another did work for some Russian bank or Arab oil company, etc. Washington is rife with it b/c Washington is rife with corruption.

But that's not the same as being a puppet or a conspiracy, and it's not even illegal so long as you fill out the paperwork. That's the problem, and that's what we should be worried about, is the level of foreign influence on EVERYONE in Washington and New York.

[UKHistory]

Citizen,

We will see. And as I say, I hope I am wrong and overreacting. If ztrump leaves Office willing either in 2020 or 2024, I will give h8m props.

But if you want to join the New Sons & Daugters of Liberty in the future, there is always room for you and a brown coat too.

[CitizenBBN]

Sleep well my friend. He's going to obey the law just like Obama. Even if he (or Obama) didn't want to, no one will go along with it.

We're losing our liberty in this country, and losing our country to elites, but it won't be anything so dramatic. It's death by 10,000 cuts.

[UKHistory]

Agree 100% on all of the foreign influence. And while hard to prove a hypothetical, had Hillary won I would be critical of her. Not to this degree which is the most outspoken I have ever been towards a US president.

[CitizenBBN]

Agree 100% on all of the foreign influence. And while hard to prove a hypothetical, had Hillary won I would be critical of her. Not to this degree which is the most outspoken I have ever been towards a US president.

Oh I believe you. Frankly I don't know many people at are who like either candidate. It' degrees of dislike and distrust between them.

[Doc]

I know many here don’t agree with I my views on the 45th president.

That is fine. Will every defense of trump be to point to Hillary or Obama? To heck with them both. I wasn’t a fan of ether. And neither can hurt us now.

But at some point trump must be evaluated on his own and compared to other presidents.

You may disagree with me but I am going to focus on him. And if he does something I like, or event don’t hate. I will say so.

I am going to evaluate Trump on his own, and ignore the detractors who throw this Russian crap at him or their blatant hypocrisy where actions under the last administration were ignored yet under Trump suddenly become major. I'll also ignore those who call him a racist, homophobe, etc without any proof of it (and securing our borders isn't proof he is a racist).

So what I'll look at is RESULTS. I don't care how he talks, who he offends or if he acts presidential. I dont care if other countries like us or not. I know the economy is better. I believe the country is safer and our enemies know we mean business. I know we are a nation who is looking out for our interests and I believe our borders are more secure. Whether I like how he acts or not doesn't matter

[suncat05]

I'm pretty much of the same mind as Doc. I am still not sure he is the right man for the job, but up to this point I really cannot argue or disagree with much of anything that he has done.
Right now, and for the most part, it's those bungholes in both Houses of Congress that irritate me with their sloth & laziness.

[UKHistory]

Securing borders isn’t racist. As I have said from my view. Saying that very fine people marched with the klan and nazis is.

Supporting immigration policies with a net result of reducing number of people of color in favor of whites could be construed as such.

If Trump through his decisions, words, behavior weakens our alliances that makes us less safe. Regardless of how big his wall is America needs allies. And Russian interests are not aligned to US interests as say NATO countries.

Words matter. Actions matter.

Russians appear to have played a real role in western elections in recent years. Trump has man6 strong financial ties to Russia. While a lot of politicians have done some business with them, trump seems to be extraordinarily propped up by them.

I have a conclusion. But I am open to be proven wrong.

[KeithKSR]

Worry 4 is in relation to the trumps ties to Russia. My reference to a book is in jest and partly I didn’t want to rehash the whole Russian thing.

I am legally not allowed to write a book that has not been vetted by white house counsel regarding my duties the past 12 months.

Trump worries me far more than Obama. Just does. I am quick to admit my opinion vs fact and hope I am wrong about trump.

But a man who responds to US diplomats kicked out of Russia by thanking the Russians for cutting pay Roll not only is unpatriotic but a moron.

And worryingly by about Obama’s today is like worrying about Florida UConn winning a title.

The damage is done. They are not a threat. Not a perfect analogy.

The Obama legacy continues to be written as the whole Russian collusion line continues to fall apart, and the Obama political weaponization of the FBI and DOJ comes to the surface.

[KeithKSR]

Doc, I have not seen the videos but will look for them. I remember some video link posted here where a stupid celebrity “pledged allegiance to Obama’”.

That was troubling. I will look for it. Barry doesn’t meant have that cult now. It ain’t like he is trying to stay in power.

Based on what I have read it was his weakness to not point a finger at trump ties to Russia early enough. Sounds like Mitch was complicit and that saddens me. Weakness not an autocrat—in spite of the many executI’ve orders.

I am not a fan and don’t think his decisions were always in US long term interests. Better man and smarter man than trump.

Trump is a traitor. He is the guy joe McCarthy was looking for. May be joe was time traveler and he was looking for trump and kept shifting in the time continuum.

Autocrat? That describes Obama and his overreaching executive orders more than it does Trump.

[KeithKSR]

I am going to evaluate Trump on his own, and ignore the detractors who throw this Russian crap at him or their blatant hypocrisy where actions under the last administration were ignored yet under Trump suddenly become major. I'll also ignore those who call him a racist, homophobe, etc without any proof of it (and securing our borders isn't proof he is a racist).

So what I'll look at is RESULTS. I don't care how he talks, who he offends or if he acts presidential. I dont care if other countries like us or not. I know the economy is better. I believe the country is safer and our enemies know we mean business. I know we are a nation who is looking out for our interests and I believe our borders are more secure. Whether I like how he acts or not doesn't matter

I agree with, Doc. I don't like what he says, but I like the results of what his policies are doing.

[KeithKSR]

Securing borders isn’t racist. As I have said from my view. Saying that very fine people marched with the klan and nazis is.

Supporting immigration policies with a net result of reducing number of people of color in favor of whites could be construed as such.

If Trump through his decisions, words, behavior weakens our alliances that makes us less safe. Regardless of how big his wall is America needs allies. And Russian interests are not aligned to US interests as say NATO countries.

Words matter. Actions matter.

Russians appear to have played a real role in western elections in recent years. Trump has man6 strong financial ties to Russia. While a lot of politicians have done some business with them, trump seems to be extraordinarily propped up by them.

I have a conclusion. But I am open to be proven wrong.

How is Trump propped up by the Russians? It's not like they funded his charity foundation or a fortune was made by him and those around him selling US uranium to Russia.

Where is the evidence?

Here are the ads purchased by the Russians, doesn't look like they were skewed toward one candidate or the other, but were aimed at creating division. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/01/us/politics/russia-2016-election-facebook.html

[UKHistory]

Mueller is looking into the financial ties between Russian businesses supported by putin’s Regime. Trump as been leveraging his businesses with Russian money.

We will see.

[Doc]

Autocrat? That describes Obama and his overreaching executive orders more than it does Trump.

Yep...if Obama didn't lijke something he just wave d his magic pen. Screw congress

[Doc]

The Obama legacy continues to be written as the whole Russian collusion line continues to fall apart, and the Obama political weaponization of the FBI and DOJ comes to the surface.

The American people should be more afraid and upset by what our government was doing rather than Russia. Russia is our enemy and it's expected to do thing to harm us and interfere with our system, unlike the FBI, IRS and FISA courts which Obama and the democrats used against a rival political party

[CitizenBBN]

Securing borders isn’t racist. As I have said from my view. Saying that very fine people marched with the klan and nazis is.

On that point, he was referring to the pro statue groups that were there. That entire thing was hijacked by extremists on both sides but it began as a legitimate protest of the removal of the statue.

It was Civil War type groups, not KKK people. They didn't march "with the KKK", they got overrun BY the KKK.

The same way groups who were there to protest the statues and wanted their removal got overrun by the BLM and even more radical groups looking for a fight as much as the KKK and Nazis.

He wasn't wrong. It got spun that he was somehow saying there were good people in the Klan, but that's not what he was saying. At least that's what he has said he meant, and given that the alternative is to praise KKK members I think my interpretation is a safer bet.

[CitizenBBN]

Mueller is looking into the financial ties between Russian businesses supported by putin’s Regime. Trump as been leveraging his businesses with Russian money.

We will see.

Trump operates in dozens of countries, and has investors from dozens more. It's a global enterprise with money from all kinds of places I'm sure. he's always trying to do deals in those countries, and in those countries to do business you have to also play ball with the powers that be.

That's a long dang way from being a Putin puppet placed in the White House so Russia controlled our nation.

And to that end, what has Putin gotten from it in this first year? We bombed their ally Syria, have aided the anti-Russian side in Ukraine, have bolstered defenses in the Baltics and Finland, have been going after their ally North Korea, hit some of their leaders with sanctions.

Is there even one notable Pro-Russian thing Trump has done in a year?

I'm sorry, but for your position to hold true we have to accept a whole lot of speculative stuff that isn't supported by evidence, and in the end believe that Putin is brilliant enough to pull off putting "his man" in the White House and then in his first year get nothing but grief for his trouble. If he did do it it's the worst political miscalculation of a Russian leader since the Czar.

[KeithKSR]

On that point, he was referring to the pro statue groups that were there. That entire thing was hijacked by extremists on both sides but it began as a legitimate protest of the removal of the statue.

It was Civil War type groups, not KKK people. They didn't march "with the KKK", they got overrun BY the KKK.

The same way groups who were there to protest the statues and wanted their removal got overrun by the BLM and even more radical groups looking for a fight as much as the KKK and Nazis.

He wasn't wrong. It got spun that he was somehow saying there were good people in the Klan, but that's not what he was saying. At least that's what he has said he meant, and given that the alternative is to praise KKK members I think my interpretation is a safer bet.

You have to watch real news for that entire weekend to get a real idea of what went on. There were peaceful people demonstrating on both sides of the statue issue, and then there were the Antifa and Neo-Nazis trying to do nothing but cause trouble.

[Doc]

Securing borders isn’t racist. As I have said from my view. Saying that very fine people marched with the klan and nazis is.

I don't think anybody is suggest you are. What is being done is that those who are hard line anti Trump are. That would include the media in general and liberals

[UKHistory]

I made not have made myself trump wants it secure border like you, me, others is not racist

Trump saying very fine people marched with the Nazis is racist. And trump won’t get the benefit of the doubt after cville

[UKHistory]

On that point, he was referring to the pro statue groups that were there. That entire thing was hijacked by extremists on both sides but it began as a legitimate protest of the removal of the statue.

It was Civil War type groups, not KKK people. They didn't march "with the KKK", they got overrun BY the KKK.

The same way groups who were there to protest the statues and wanted their removal got overrun by the BLM and even more radical groups looking for a fight as much as the KKK and Nazis.

He wasn't wrong. It got spun that he was somehow saying there were good people in the Klan, but that's not what he was saying. At least that's what he has said he meant, and given that the alternative is to praise KKK members I think my interpretation is a safer bet.

When cabinet secretaries all but apologize for the presidents remarks...

[badrose]

https://www.facebook.com/TRUMPTRAIN16/photos/a.647807485322431.1073741829.639552979481215/1136743873095454/?type=3

[UKHistory]

Words matter and policy decisions impacting millions can not be ignored either.

A heart of gold? Made from the gold he has taken from widows and orphans.

[CGWildcat]

I will simply say, I have been to Haiti. Walked its shores. It IS a S&#*hole.

[Catonahottinroof]

And the corruption of the government causes it to be that way. The DR on the opposition side of Hispaniola is very accommodating....