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CattyWampus
12-07-2012, 10:06 AM
The media is busy this morning trying to convince us that the latest report is cause to celebrate. The Unemployment rate dropped to 7.7%. Even the voices on the WSJ Report on the radio this morning were giddy with delight.

Never mind that the 146,000 jobs created doesn't meet the threshold to keep up with the growth of those entering the job market. When GWB was POTUS, we were reminded that it took 150-200 thousand new jobs each month just to tread water and to keep the unemployment rate from rising. Now, the media doesn't seem to think that's important.

Never mind that it took 540,000 people leaving the job market (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-07/146000-jobs-added-november-beat-expectation-85000-unemployment-rate-lower-77) to allow the unemployment rate to drop to 7.7%.

There's an old saying that "figures don't lie but liars figure". The quote is commonly accredited to Mark Twain. Others think that it might be a quote from Carroll D. Wright, Charles H. Grosvenor or James G. Blaine. Whoever said it must have been thinking about government statisticians when they said it.

I saw this interesting image on Twitter this morning, but it's too large to copy here. Here is a facsimile of what the image contained:


If we measured unemployment today the way they did in the 1930's, today's unemployment would be worse than any single year of the great depression.

1931- 15.3% ------ 2009- 21%
1932- 22.9% ------ 2010- 22%
1933- 20.6% ------ 2011- 22%
1934- 16.0% ------ 2012- 23%

I don't know the veracity of these numbers, but considering how hard the BOL seems to work to massage real numbers, I certainly wouldn't be surprised that these numbers are absolutely accurate.

cattails
12-08-2012, 07:36 AM
Well when the 29 hr work week kicks in what do you think the % will be?

CattyWampus
12-08-2012, 08:46 AM
Well when the 29 hr work week kicks in what do you think the % will be?

I figure that between the 29 hr week and the continued increase of people giving up looking for a job, thereby taking them out of the workforce calculation, unemployment will be down to around 3% by the end of 2014. Good job, Obamie!

jazyd
12-08-2012, 09:32 AM
If it wasn't so sad it would be funny.

figures never lie but liars can figure, I used to use that line with sales mgrs when they tried cutting our commissions.

Doc
12-08-2012, 10:26 AM
Xmas bump, will be gone in a month

jazyd
12-08-2012, 01:27 PM
plus the always revised down a month later report. This administration is the biggest liars to ever hit DC



Xmas bump, will be gone in a month

samanthalopez
02-08-2013, 11:09 PM
Recent reports from Bureau of Labor and Statistics say that the duration time that people remained without work dropped to 35.3 weeks in the first month of 2013. That was a decline from December’s 38.1 weeks, which itself was a drop from the 40.2 weeks seen in January 2012. This could be because people are frustrated and giving up that they will still get a job. Good thing this country has unemployment benefits, which is supposedly long enough if a person is trying hard to find a job. Article resource:Unemployed duration drops nationally, not as good as it sounds (http://personalmoneynetwork.com/moneyblog/2013/02/07/unemployed-duration-drops/)

Doc
02-08-2013, 11:30 PM
I can promise that if I lost my job, it wouldn't take me 35.3 weeks to find employment. It might not be the job I wanted but it would be a paycheck. Of course I'm not eligible for unemployment since I'm self employed. Of course if you paid me for 35 weeks without me having to work, then odds are it would take me about 35.3 weeks to find a job too.

dan_bgblue
02-09-2013, 10:09 AM
Of course if you paid me for 35 weeks without me having to work, then odds are it would take me about 35.3 weeks to find a job too.

:idea:

KeithKSR
02-09-2013, 10:11 AM
There are a lot more unemployed people than the statistics indicate. One thing my wife has found is that there are a lot of jobs that are advertised, but are not being filled because of the economy.

badrose
02-09-2013, 10:38 AM
Recent reports from Bureau of Labor and Statistics say that the duration time that people remained without work dropped to 35.3 weeks in the first month of 2013. That was a decline from December’s 38.1 weeks, which itself was a drop from the 40.2 weeks seen in January 2012. This could be because people are frustrated and giving up that they will still get a job. Good thing this country has unemployment benefits, which is supposedly long enough if a person is trying hard to find a job. Article resource:Unemployed duration drops nationally, not as good as it sounds (http://personalmoneynetwork.com/moneyblog/2013/02/07/unemployed-duration-drops/)

Welcome, Samantha! Tell us a little about yourself.

badrose
02-09-2013, 10:54 AM
I can promise that if I lost my job, it wouldn't take me 35.3 weeks to find employment. It might not be the job I wanted but it would be a paycheck. Of course I'm not eligible for unemployment since I'm self employed. Of course if you paid me for 35 weeks without me having to work, then odds are it would take me about 35.3 weeks to find a job too.

I think it's prudent to use that time to try to find a job that pays similar to the last one. Naturally, if it expires you take the best available.

KeithKSR
02-09-2013, 06:06 PM
I think it's prudent to use that time to try to find a job that pays similar to the last one. Naturally, if it expires you take the best available.

With the difference in work age Americans and jobs available right now it is an employers market. Obama and others fail to see that the influx of illegal immigrants hurts our economy much more than they spout in their talking points. Strengthening our borders guards against as many illegal immigrants.

Doc
02-09-2013, 07:09 PM
I think it's prudent to use that time to try to find a job that pays similar to the last one. Naturally, if it expires you take the best available.

I don't. I think it's prudent to take any job that pays and work to find a better job. It might mean taking a job delivering Pizza's at night or "flipping burgers". It sure wouldn't take me 9 months which is how long one can take unemployment, and in some cases longer. If its taking that long for me to find a job, I'm not looking in the right places.... or maybe I'm not looking at all.

KeithKSR
02-09-2013, 08:28 PM
I don't. I think it's prudent to take any job that pays and work to find a better job. It might mean taking a job delivering Pizza's at night or "flipping burgers". It sure wouldn't take me 9 months which is how long one can take unemployment, and in some cases longer. If its taking that long for me to find a job, I'm not looking in the right places.... or maybe I'm not looking at all.

It comes down to the old if you have a job it is easier to get a job thing.

Let's skip the unemployment benefits and look at our societal issues. I heard on the radio in the last few weeks that people who receive government benefits (not unemployment, Soc Security, but other stuff) receive an average of $46K in benefits. Also heard that it would take an income of $65K to equal the benefits of people who take advantage of all available governmental benefits.

Where is the incentive to work?

jazyd
02-09-2013, 09:08 PM
Some pizza delivery guys make a good living and much is cash tips. Had a friend with a degree who just delivered and made $40,000 a year


UOTE=Doc;54612]I don't. I think it's prudent to take any job that pays and work to find a better job. It might mean taking a job delivering Pizza's at night or "flipping burgers". It sure wouldn't take me 9 months which is how long one can take unemployment, and in some cases longer. If its taking that long for me to find a job, I'm not looking in the right places.... or maybe I'm not looking at all.[/QUOTE]

BigBlueBrock
02-11-2013, 01:04 AM
I don't. I think it's prudent to take any job that pays and work to find a better job. It might mean taking a job delivering Pizza's at night or "flipping burgers". It sure wouldn't take me 9 months which is how long one can take unemployment, and in some cases longer. If its taking that long for me to find a job, I'm not looking in the right places.... or maybe I'm not looking at all.

Have you ever actually been unemployed and received UI benefits? I think you mentioned you are self-employed, which probably means the answer is no. Let's do a little thought experiment Mr. "I'm too good for unemployment!"

You're a middle-class worker, making right around the national average of $44,000/yr. Company downsizes, your department is gutted and you're unemployed. Maximum weekly benefit in KY? $415 before federal income tax (yes, you can opt to pay federal income tax of 10% out of your UI check). If you worked 40 hours a week, you'd have to find a job paying $10/hr to make the same. But you're not going to deliver pizzas or flip burgers at $10/hr, you're going to do that at minimum wage, which is $7.25/hr. And you're not going to work 40 hours a week at McDonald's because they're only going to schedule for a maximum of 32 hours. So you work two jobs at minimum wage for 40-50 hours a week. Shitty jobs where you are treated like filth, feel like ass, and smell like grease at the end of the day. And while you're doing all that, you're trying to find a "real" job.

OR

You could suck it up, take your UI benefit, which was already paid for by your previous employer, use your time to train/educate AND look for a job that isn't a menial or below your abilities. One that actually pays close to, or even more than, what you were making before. Did you know that studies have shown that when someone takes an underpaying job that they are overqualified for, it takes them at least five years to reach their true income potential again?

FYI, I lost my job in August of 2009. While unemployed, I took advantage of a UI program that paid for work training/certification programs. I used that to get a CCNA. While taking the class, even though I wasn't required to do so to continue receiving my UI benefit, I continued to look for suitable employment to no avail. In April of 2010, just as my initial UI benefits expired (I was about to apply for the extension), I took a temp job with UKHC's info sec team, doing user provisioning for the hospital making ~$13/hr. While working there, I applied for numerous positions at UK. In June of 2010, I was offered a full-time position at UK's main data center on campus, a job which required a CCENT or equivalent, which is the cert a tier below what I got. It also paid ~40% more than what I had been making at my previous full-time job. I've since continued my education at UK, gained another tech cert, and recently moved to the hospital's data center, which came with a 20% raise. None of that would have happened if I'd been "too good" for UI benefits and worked myself to death in shitty jobs while scrambling for a low-salary job in a crappy economy. In summation - Your point of view on this matter is myopic and reeks of ignorance.

BigBlueBrock
02-11-2013, 01:08 AM
Some pizza delivery guys make a good living and much is cash tips. Had a friend with a degree who just delivered and made $40,000 a year


Yeah, and there are strippers that make more than twice what I do. That doesn't mean either of these jobs are worth doing for most of the people that do them.

suncat05
02-11-2013, 09:49 AM
To each his own, BBB. I see what you're saying, and I disagree with you. Each individual must do whatever is best for him/her in their own personal situation. If that means taking up a lesser paying job until a better paying job comes along, then so be it. Been there, done that, and it worked for me. But that was me. Maybe you have another way to approach your situation that works for you and if so, then good for you.
But everyone is not you. Only you is you. And not every solution that works for you will work for someone else. Hence, different solutions work for different people.

badrose
02-11-2013, 10:06 AM
BBB, you make some good points in your post(s). Don't let them get lost due to your tendency make and take things personal. We're all adults here.

CitizenBBN
02-11-2013, 10:48 AM
Shitty jobs where you are treated like filth, feel like ass, and smell like grease at the end of the day. And while you're doing all that, you're trying to find a "real" job.

OR

You could suck it up, take your UI benefit, which was already paid for by your previous employer, use your time to train/educate AND look for a job that isn't a menial or below your abilities. One that actually pays close to, or even more than, what you were making before. Did you know that studies have shown that when someone takes an underpaying job that they are overqualified for, it takes them at least five years to reach their true income potential again?

Yeah, that would sure be tough being treated like the 10s of millions who do those jobs to survive. Having to do hard, backbreaking work like housing tobacco or digging ditches or serving people. You know, menial labor that is beneath a person. I can't imagine where the attitude comes that condones those people being treated so badly.

I'm glad the system worked for you. You availed yourself of it and benefited. That's what it was designed to do, but it operates on the built in assumption that those using it are like yourself and will try to use it as a springboard to another job and even career. The problem is for every one of you there are more that will not use it to benefit and will simply drain on the system.

However, your obvious condescension at honest work, albeit blue collar "menial" labor, shows why so many say they "can't find work". They can find work, just not the work they think befits their social status. They dont' care to work 2 jobs for 50-60 hours a week, or do the nasty and backbreaking jobs.

As for the previous employer paying for it, that's not really the case. True the employer pays the unemployment tax, but there are two key points as regards this issue. First, what the tax covers is a fraction of what one draws on unemployment. It covers only part of the program costs, so it is in fact paid for mostly by the taxpayers of that state through general revenues. Second, as a tax it is not in the end paid by the employer but rather is paid by the employees of the company as a payroll tax.

So you paid part of your own unemployment, but it was small compared to what you received. the rest was paid for by the other employees and the taxpayers at large. In fact when you and others at that company claimed the remaining employees paid more b/c the rates went up.

That's fine, it worked for you and made you a contributing taxpayer again. It does work for people, and certainly not everyone who takes benefits is lazy or not trying. Not at all. That's great. Now if we can just figure out those millions of others who aren't trying hard enough to contribute again we'll have something.

BigBlueBrock
02-11-2013, 10:55 AM
However, your obvious condescension at honest work, albeit blue collar "menial" labor, shows why so many say they "can't find work". They can find work, just not the work they think befits their social status. They dont' care to work 2 jobs for 50-60 hours a week, or do the nasty and backbreaking jobs.


As opposed to other people's obvious condescension towards a person that avails themselves of the system in place to help bridge the gap between qualified employment?

And I'm sorry if I seem 'condescending' toward fast food or garbage pickup jobs. But I'm educated, I'm trained, I'm intelligent, and I have positioned myself for a professional career path in IT. Yes, picking up garbage is beneath me. Would I do it if I had to? Yes. Would I take advantage of every possible avenue to keep from doing it? Yes. I'm not a blue collar worker, which is why I went to college.

CitizenBBN
02-11-2013, 10:59 AM
To each his own, BBB. I see what you're saying, and I disagree with you. Each individual must do whatever is best for him/her in their own personal situation. If that means taking up a lesser paying job until a better paying job comes along, then so be it. Been there, done that, and it worked for me. But that was me. Maybe you have another way to approach your situation that works for you and if so, then good for you.
But everyone is not you. Only you is you. And not every solution that works for you will work for someone else. Hence, different solutions work for different people.

The problem is pretty simple. The welfare state and all it's various tentacles assumes the person is like BBB, who availed himself of the chances and desired to get off the system and to a better economic status. If everyone approached it like he did we wouldn't be having this discussion, the system wouldn't be sucking billions of dollars every year, and this nation wouldn't have a permanent generational underclass.

The reality however is that for every BBB out there there are far more people content to scam the system rather than take the steps to leave the system and be self sustaining and contributing to the economy.

FWIW unemployment does pay a pittance. I won't say it's a big help. It does help, but it's not a big amount of money, and as these programs go it is one of the least addictive and expensive. In some ways that's not good b/c then you apply for food stamps and numerous other things, and the system starts dragging you in. Save some money? Now your benefits are cut off? Find a job? Benefits cut off.

So you do the math like BBB did except the answer is to turn down the $10/hr job b/c you'd lose your benefits. It would take a far better job, better than you're likely to get, to justify the change. Soon the victim mentality creeps in, you lose that confidence and need to be self reliant, slowly thinking you've been wronged and "deserve" your benefits and subconsciously accept you can't do it on your own, and the liberal "war on poverty" has claimed another life.

There's nothing 'wrong' with taking UI benefits IMO, but I do have an issue with not taking a job "beneath" a person and I do know entering the system is a lifelong and even generational proposition for 10s of millions.

CitizenBBN
02-11-2013, 11:01 AM
As opposed to other people's obvious condescension towards a person that avails themselves of the system in place to help bridge the gap between qualified employment?

So your condescension is OK b/c others are also condescending?

BigBlueBrock
02-11-2013, 11:09 AM
So your condescension is OK b/c others are also condescending?

Well if you're going to yell at me for being condescending, I would suppose you'd yell at others for being just as condescending. But their condescension falls in line with your own, so you don't notice it.


The reality however is that for every BBB out there there are far more people content to scam the system rather than take the steps to leave the system and be self sustaining and contributing to the economy.

It's difficult to scam the UI system. You're required to report an X amount of job applications every week. If you have to go on extended benefits, that number doubles and the reporting frequency increases. Most people on UI benefits don't WANT to be on UI. That want to do the work they've prepared themselves to do through education, training, and experience and fulfill as much of their earning potential as possible.

badrose
02-11-2013, 11:46 AM
My wife and I have always depended on dual income in order to make ends meet sufficient to the lifestyle we want in raising our two daughters. Historically, her income has been mostly commission based while I earned a good salary in retail/retail management except for a few good years as a personal trainer. As the economy got worse, her income dried up and my income was not quite enough to cover all the basics. The potential for hers if the opportunities were there were greater than my own so I left my job to do the marketing to support her efforts. That failed. Other opportunities in her field were few where we lived so she looked around instate and found her current job; salary-based with good bonuses based on the profits her employer made each quarter BUT WE HAD TO MOVE. In the meantime, while at her previous job, the owner let me go after checking on my unemployment benefits status. Turns out because I hadn't been with them long enough the basis for my WC pay was deferred to my former employer which ended up being about my take home pay while I worked there, about $500/week. I still looked for good jobs in the meantime but few retail jobs were available where we currently live. I've ended up doing what I did doing what I did after graduating high school, working in a grocery store part-time. I don't look at it as beneath me. I'm grateful they gave me a job and I return the favor by putting 100% effort into it and they in turn maximize my hours which is limited because of Obamacare and its cost to employers. I can't average more than 28 hours a week but sometimes I get close to 40 which really isn't that much more $$$ because of the higher rate of deductions. Still, I'm appreciated by those I work for and with, and unless something better becomes available I'll get my opportunity when new stores open or an opening becomes available in my current location.

CitizenBBN
02-11-2013, 12:17 PM
Well if you're going to yell at me for being condescending, I would suppose you'd yell at others for being just as condescending. But their condescension falls in line with your own, so you don't notice it.


I notice it, and you'll be hardpressed to find any in my posts (go ahead, try), but there is a difference. I just don't care to discuss that yet b/c it would let you off the hook for defending your view of menial labor, and I'm keen to understand how one defends such a view of honest work.



It's difficult to scam the UI system. You're required to report an X amount of job applications every week. If you have to go on extended benefits, that number doubles and the reporting frequency increases. Most people on UI benefits don't WANT to be on UI. That want to do the work they've prepared themselves to do through education, training, and experience and fulfill as much of their earning potential as possible.

I agree UI is the least problematic of all the systems, as I stated more than once. I disagree it's hard to scam though b/c I've known way too many people who do so. First they scam it by applying when they were terminated for cause. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Kentucky seems to have gotten tougher on those filing false claims, but years ago it was almost impossible for an employer to successfully appeal and win. Trust me we tried.

I've seen it scammed, and with little effort. You just have to be good at cheating. I won't share the details of how, but it's not hard.

I agree many (maybe most) don't want to be on it. It's the better of the group of such programs, but many who are on it are way too focused on their "earning potential" versus the reality of their situations.

there's no inherent guaranteed "earning potential". If jobs in a sector dwindle it doesn't matter if you got a degree in that area with a 4.0 average. The market determines what things are worth and that earning potential can change for better or worse. You worked to get different or better qualifications and shifted to get a good job, but many do not. What they did for a living has become a more restricted market where they may not have the qualifications for the few jobs remaining, or they otherwise need to change careers. The UI system can help them do that, but it can also be a crutch to keep them from doing so. All depends on how they approach their situation.

I have no desperate issue with UI, but I have to agree that "can't find work" isn't accurate. "Can't find work which meets my qualifications" or "can't find work that returns me to my prior earning potential" is more accurate. Maybe that's OK, maybe not, but it's more accurate.

the system was there to bridge not between a good job A and a good job B, but between two jobs. Far too many people are unwilling to do work "beneath them" in this country. No work done honestly is beneath anyone, nor is any person doing such work honestly beneath anyone.

want to do some crappy jobs? Try farming, or construction work. I've done both, may have to do them again you never know.

BigBlueBrock
02-11-2013, 12:22 PM
I have no desperate issue with UI, but I have to agree that "can't find work" isn't accurate. "Can't find work which meets my qualifications" or "can't find work that returns me to my prior earning potential" is more accurate. Maybe that's OK, maybe not, but it's more accurate.

It absolutely is OK. People go to (and pay for) college and work training for a reason. They have years of experience in their field which is inherently valuable to them. It should absolutely be OK for a victim of downsizing or just a shitty employer to try and maximize their earning potential while searching for a job on UI benefits and that person shouldn't be treated like some ignoble heathen just because they want to wait until they have absolutely no choice before taking a job sweeping floors.

Doc
02-11-2013, 09:56 PM
Have you ever actually been unemployed and received UI benefits? I think you mentioned you are self-employed, which probably means the answer is no. Let's do a little thought experiment Mr. "I'm too good for unemployment!"

You're a middle-class worker, making right around the national average of $44,000/yr. Company downsizes, your department is gutted and you're unemployed. Maximum weekly benefit in KY? $415 before federal income tax (yes, you can opt to pay federal income tax of 10% out of your UI check). If you worked 40 hours a week, you'd have to find a job paying $10/hr to make the same. But you're not going to deliver pizzas or flip burgers at $10/hr, you're going to do that at minimum wage, which is $7.25/hr. And you're not going to work 40 hours a week at McDonald's because they're only going to schedule for a maximum of 32 hours. So you work two jobs at minimum wage for 40-50 hours a week. Shitty jobs where you are treated like filth, feel like ass, and smell like grease at the end of the day. And while you're doing all that, you're trying to find a "real" job.

OR

You could suck it up, take your UI benefit, which was already paid for by your previous employer, use your time to train/educate AND look for a job that isn't a menial or below your abilities. One that actually pays close to, or even more than, what you were making before. Did you know that studies have shown that when someone takes an underpaying job that they are overqualified for, it takes them at least five years to reach their true income potential again?

FYI, I lost my job in August of 2009. While unemployed, I took advantage of a UI program that paid for work training/certification programs. I used that to get a CCNA. While taking the class, even though I wasn't required to do so to continue receiving my UI benefit, I continued to look for suitable employment to no avail. In April of 2010, just as my initial UI benefits expired (I was about to apply for the extension), I took a temp job with UKHC's info sec team, doing user provisioning for the hospital making ~$13/hr. While working there, I applied for numerous positions at UK. In June of 2010, I was offered a full-time position at UK's main data center on campus, a job which required a CCENT or equivalent, which is the cert a tier below what I got. It also paid ~40% more than what I had been making at my previous full-time job. I've since continued my education at UK, gained another tech cert, and recently moved to the hospital's data center, which came with a 20% raise. None of that would have happened if I'd been "too good" for UI benefits and worked myself to death in shitty jobs while scrambling for a low-salary job in a crappy economy. In summation - Your point of view on this matter is myopic and reeks of ignorance.


So if I read your post correctly, you didn't have a job until unemployment was about to expire, then you took a job that paid less but continued to apply for a better job until you got one. WOW, thats a novel idea..one I wish I had suggested.

As for this "Let's do a little thought experiment Mr. "I'm too good for unemployment!"" What a crock of ****! Nowhere did I ever say I was too good for unemployment. What I stated was that as a business owner I'm not eligible for unemployment. To be honest, you know jack **** about me. When you spend a year scooping chicken **** then you can lecture me about crappy jobs. You ever climb into a 50 foot long troth that is 2 feet deep with chicken excrement and have to use a shovel to scoop it out? I did it twice weekly for nearly a year, and did it for minimum wage. When you spend 5 years cutting up dead animals, working with stinking decomposing vile carcasses of animals, then you can tell me about your rough life. My first job after graduating school was working 6pm to 8am four nights a week (Th-Sat) at an Animal Emergency clinic. That was each and every weekend, nearly 60 hrs a week with no overtime since it was a salary job and not paid by hourly rate. I did it because I didn't have a choice since I had a wife and kid and it was the best paying job I could find. Didn't matter that is sucked. Its what I did. Its not meant to be a discussion about who has had the worse job. For me, I do whatever I have to to support my family. I don't want to be a ward of the government. I'd rather flip burgers... or shovel chicken ****!

My stance is studies show that there is direct correlation between length of unemployment benefits and the time needed to find a job. Here (http://ftp.iza.org/dp4670.pdf) is a link to one such discussion. I'm going to take an excerpt from another (https://www.princeton.edu/ceps/workingpapers/175krueger.pdf)one:

This paper provides new evidence on job search intensity of the unemployed in the U.S., modeling job search intensity as time allocated to job search activities. The main findings are: 1) the average unemployed worker in the U.S. devotes about 41 minutes to job search on weekdays, which is substantially more than his or her European counterpart; 2) workers who expect to be recalled by their previous employer search substantially less than the average unemployed worker; 3) across the 50 states and D.C., job search is inversely related to the generosity of unemployment benefits, with an elasticity between -1.6 and -2.2; 4) the predicted wage is a strong predictor of time devoted to job search, with an elasticity in excess of 2.5; 5) job search intensity for those eligible for Unemployment Insurance (UI) increases prior to benefit exhaustion; 6) time devoted to job search is fairly constant regardless of unemployment duration for those who are ineligible for UI. A nonparametric Monte Carlo technique suggests that the relationship between job search effort and the duration of unemployment for a cross-section of job seekers is only slightly biased by length-based sampling.



Here (http://www.clevelandfed.org/forefront/2011/winter/ff_2011_winter_09.cfm) is another which presents both sides. However this particular article (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703959704575454431457720188.html) by Robert Barro is one that most mirrors my opinion. Nice to have an economist on my side.

Doc
02-11-2013, 10:12 PM
I wanted to add:


Shitty jobs where you are treated like filth, feel like ass, and smell like grease at the end of the day. And while you're doing all that, you're trying to find a "real" job.


Do you look down at all people or just the lowly unskilled laborer who would demean themselves by working in the food service industry? Me, I learned to respect those hard working people that take those shitty jobs, who work in filth, feel like an ass and smell like grease. I respect them a hell of a lot more that the lazy jagoff that sits on his butt for 38 weeks collecting unemployment and does nothing to find a job or make him/her more hirable. I respect them because they are willing to take that job rather then accept the handout that the government is so willing to take from me and give to them.

Doc
02-11-2013, 10:23 PM
Well if you're going to yell at me for being condescending, I would suppose you'd yell at others for being just as condescending. But their condescension falls in line with your own, so you don't notice it.



It's difficult to scam the UI system. You're required to report an X amount of job applications every week. If you have to go on extended benefits, that number doubles and the reporting frequency increases. Most people on UI benefits don't WANT to be on UI. That want to do the work they've prepared themselves to do through education, training, and experience and fulfill as much of their earning potential as possible.

My first two posts were not condescending, and since your condescending post was a quoted reply to mine, I'm taking it as directed toward me.

I'll be clear. I have no problem with people taking unemployment to get by if need be. I have no problem with other social nets when used as intended. Doing what one needs to do to improve your standing in life is fine. However the system is too often abused and those who abuse it go unpunished.

Doc
02-11-2013, 10:27 PM
My wife and I have always depended on dual income in order to make ends meet sufficient to the lifestyle we want in raising our two daughters. Historically, her income has been mostly commission based while I earned a good salary in retail/retail management except for a few good years as a personal trainer. As the economy got worse, her income dried up and my income was not quite enough to cover all the basics. The potential for hers if the opportunities were there were greater than my own so I left my job to do the marketing to support her efforts. That failed. Other opportunities in her field were few where we lived so she looked around instate and found her current job; salary-based with good bonuses based on the profits her employer made each quarter BUT WE HAD TO MOVE. In the meantime, while at her previous job, the owner let me go after checking on my unemployment benefits status. Turns out because I hadn't been with them long enough the basis for my WC pay was deferred to my former employer which ended up being about my take home pay while I worked there, about $500/week. I still looked for good jobs in the meantime but few retail jobs were available where we currently live. I've ended up doing what I did doing what I did after graduating high school, working in a grocery store part-time. I don't look at it as beneath me. I'm grateful they gave me a job and I return the favor by putting 100% effort into it and they in turn maximize my hours which is limited because of Obamacare and its cost to employers. I can't average more than 28 hours a week but sometimes I get close to 40 which really isn't that much more $$$ because of the higher rate of deductions. Still, I'm appreciated by those I work for and with, and unless something better becomes available I'll get my opportunity when new stores open or an opening becomes available in my current location.

Just an FYI for those in this thread... I've known John for many years. His situation is as he presents and I truly feel for him. I don't have issues with folks like this drawing UE benefits. I do when there is no effort to find a job or better their situations.

Doc
02-11-2013, 10:35 PM
I agree UI is the least problematic of all the systems, as I stated more than once. I disagree it's hard to scam though b/c I've known way too many people who do so. First they scam it by applying when they were terminated for cause. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Kentucky seems to have gotten tougher on those filing false claims, but years ago it was almost impossible for an employer to successfully appeal and win. Trust me we tried.

I've seen it scammed, and with little effort. You just have to be good at cheating. I won't share the details of how, but it's not hard.

Exactly. UE isn't scammed for as much as welfare etc... but it is. Seldom do we fire a person where we don't get a claim for unemployment, and usually they get it. Steal from me and get caught, you get fired. Claim UE. I actually had one girl claim I "forced her to get an abortion" in an UE hearing. She claimed that when she got preg which I was unaware of and had NOTHING TO DO WITH, she feared she would lose her job in the kennel (yes, she picked up dog poop for a living and despite that I still talked to her and treated her like a person) so she got an abortion. She was later fired (months after this) for not showing up for work. This girl got UE. Our last office manager had a work phone (one I paid for) and we realized she was spending literally hours every day talking to her boyfriend in CA during working hours (based on the phone bill). She got UE. Had one girl who was stealing drugs from us and was fired. She too got UE.

So while UE is a great program when needed, its often abused.

jazyd
02-12-2013, 09:20 AM
picking up garbage is beneath you, actually with your attitude, it is better than you. YOu claim to be intelligent and often act like you are some of kind of genius here when in fact you usually come out on the losing end of most arguements here with those that are way above your head but don't brag like you do and those also would pick up garbage if it meant being able to put food on the table for their families. Many of us here that have been successful have worked those 'shitty' jobs you look down on to pay for college, to pay bills, to take care of family or whtever needs to be taken care of.

doc, nor citizen, nor badrose normyself ever thought any of us were to good to get our hands dirty, to work long hours, to work with the 'less educated'. I play golf and hunt with men who could buy you ten times over but they are humble, have worked hard for what they have, never look down on anyone, have gotten their hands dirty working but never have I ever heard any of them say a job was beneath them because they were 'educated'.

you are nothing more than an arrogant smart a.. kid that thinks he knows everything but is continually put in your place by the likes of doc, citizen and badrose and others. You might want to keep your lilly white fingers off the keyboard before your brain engages and pay attention to what others know and try to tell you. You might actually get truly educated


As opposed to other people's obvious condescension towards a person that avails themselves of the system in place to help bridge the gap between qualified employment?

And I'm sorry if I seem 'condescending' toward fast food or garbage pickup jobs. But I'm educated, I'm trained, I'm intelligent, and I have positioned myself for a professional career path in IT. Yes, picking up garbage is beneath me. Would I do it if I had to? Yes. Would I take advantage of every possible avenue to keep from doing it? Yes. I'm not a blue collar worker, which is why I went to college.

BigBlueBrock
02-12-2013, 11:07 AM
I wanted to add:



Do you look down at all people or just the lowly unskilled laborer who would demean themselves by working in the food service industry? Me, I learned to respect those hard working people that take those shitty jobs, who work in filth, feel like an ass and smell like grease. I respect them a hell of a lot more that the lazy jagoff that sits on his butt for 38 weeks collecting unemployment and does nothing to find a job or make him/her more hirable. I respect them because they are willing to take that job rather then accept the handout that the government is so willing to take from me and give to them.

I don't look down on people working those jobs, but I do look down on those jobs. I worked in food service for three years in college (cooking, working the register, washing the dishes, cleaning the kitchen front to back, sweeping and mopping the dining room, etc). It sucked. But I went to college so I wouldn't have to do that again ever. Am I too qualified, too educated, too experienced in my field to willingly work a job flipping burgers that pays minimum wage? Yes. Would I do that work if I had no other choice? Yes. Do I understand that others aren't in a position to be so choosy about their work? Yes.

As for your earlier post, my intent wasn't to present my "rough life," but to demonstrate that not everyone receiving UI for the full time was some lout, as one of your replies ITT had insinuated, and I quote,


If its taking that long for me to find a job, I'm not looking in the right places.... or maybe I'm not looking at all.

You may not have intended to sound condescending, but you can (or should) be able to see how one would take that as you "looking down upon" someone that receives UI benefits instead of immediately taking a crappy job.

Btw, your hostility towards me in your initial reply wasn't necessary. But if I offended you, I apologize.

BigBlueBrock
02-12-2013, 11:13 AM
picking up garbage is beneath you, actually with your attitude, it is better than you. YOu claim to be intelligent and often act like you are some of kind of genius here when in fact you usually come out on the losing end of most arguements here with those that are way above your head but don't brag like you do and those also would pick up garbage if it meant being able to put food on the table for their families. Many of us here that have been successful have worked those 'shitty' jobs you look down on to pay for college, to pay bills, to take care of family or whtever needs to be taken care of.

doc, nor citizen, nor badrose normyself ever thought any of us were to good to get our hands dirty, to work long hours, to work with the 'less educated'. I play golf and hunt with men who could buy you ten times over but they are humble, have worked hard for what they have, never look down on anyone, have gotten their hands dirty working but never have I ever heard any of them say a job was beneath them because they were 'educated'.

you are nothing more than an arrogant smart a.. kid that thinks he knows everything but is continually put in your place by the likes of doc, citizen and badrose and others. You might want to keep your lilly white fingers off the keyboard before your brain engages and pay attention to what others know and try to tell you. You might actually get truly educated

*yawn*

cattails
02-12-2013, 02:13 PM
I wanted to add:



Do you look down at all people or just the lowly unskilled laborer who would demean themselves by working in the food service industry? Me, I learned to respect those hard working people that take those shitty jobs, who work in filth, feel like an ass and smell like grease. I respect them a hell of a lot more that the lazy jagoff that sits on his butt for 38 weeks collecting unemployment and does nothing to find a job or make him/her more hirable. I respect them because they are willing to take that job rather then accept the handout that the government is so willing to take from me and give to them.

I'm more like Doc than some in here. I respect the guy that works on the back of a garbage truck because it's a job no one wants to do but this person does it because it is a living. One of the big problems with this country is "entitlement". I look at the 800 sq ft home I grew up in as a child and it was fine, I played outside, one bath room, I didn't think it was small. People today have to have much bigger, much better homes, cars and all the other nice things that go along with it. You earn those things; you are not entitled to them. I know so many people that live above their heads, takes both incomes to make their payments for homes and cars that they can't afford, one loses their job they lose everything. Like Doc I have been in business for close to 40 years and it was a very humble beginning. I am a painting contractor who painted anything starting out while going to school on the GI Bill. I kept painting, have done tons of commercial projects, walked out of projects with the sun coming up and going back to work on another project. Grew as a company not afraid to put in those 60 and 70 hour weeks, our employee staff grew, we started working other states, traveled to do Wal-Marts and Sam-Clubs, other out of state projects as well. Worked for BellSouth in Tenn for a year and a half to Alabama border, I was young enough to take crews out back then, not anymore, I work in the office and my son takes on these projects and travel. It was a hard road to get there, a lot of hard work. I truly love my employees, I treat them like family, I only keep the best and the ones that are loyal to the company. I started as nothing and built a company from the ground up with hard work, it was not given to me. I have been out of debt for years, my son just turned 40, has his house paid for which sets on his farm, put in a nice lake, and this year should be completely out of debt, works his tail off, puts in the hours and has traveled as far away as Springfield Mo to do large project. All my children are hard workers, my oldest daughter has her masters from University Chicago and working on her PHD, travels to other countries in her work, her and her husband have good jobs but they work and work hard. My children learned to work when they were about 8 years old, they learned the value of a dollar, they earned their money doing what ever dad could find for them. Today it is all about entitlement. I have always lived by the idea that I would do what ever I had to do to make a living, shovel ****, or what ever, I would never be above any labor to support my family and I instilled this thinking in my children. I try to always pick up a penny when I see one on the ground because I never want to feel I am above the value of a penny, just out of principle. I am for sure not the brightest, most educated or smartest that post on these boards but I do know the value of hard work. I could retire, but I enjoy what I do, I look forward to friday and look forward to monday and more than anything seeing my boys grow as men with good principles in life. Contrary to what our society has become, nothing should be free, you should work for it, there is no entitlement. Rant over with, hit a nerve there.

jazyd
02-12-2013, 09:42 PM
about what I figured from you, just a smart ass kid that thinks he knows it all. Then again you are a state employee versus hte rest of us that work for al iving,, many of us actually put people to work paying taxes so somone like you can look down his nose at others. There will come a day you will get fired, not because of 'education' but because of attitude, well that is if you ever get off the government tit which you seem to like in so many ways.



*yawn*

jazyd
02-12-2013, 09:44 PM
i appreciate what Badrose has done, not many would do what he has done, at least not many in the younger generation as they would rather take the government tit and keep it in their mouths for as long as possible. The thing about a guy like John, he has pride and we need more like him.



Just an FYI for those in this thread... I've known John for many years. His situation is as he presents and I truly feel for him. I don't have issues with folks like this drawing UE benefits. I do when there is no effort to find a job or better their situations.

BigBlueBrock
02-12-2013, 10:08 PM
about what I figured from you, just a smart ass kid that thinks he knows it all. Then again you are a state employee versus hte rest of us that work for al iving,, many of us actually put people to work paying taxes so somone like you can look down his nose at others. There will come a day you will get fired, not because of 'education' but because of attitude, well that is if you ever get off the government tit which you seem to like in so many ways.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d130/Brock2222/Image%20Macros/vhhfa.jpg

cattails
02-12-2013, 10:52 PM
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d130/Brock2222/Image%20Macros/vhhfa.jpg

Sad you have become such a little person.

BigBlueBrock
02-13-2013, 08:35 AM
Sad you have become such a little person.

I'm the only one that's been personally insulted in this thread, and I'm the small one? Interesting.

jazyd
02-13-2013, 10:15 AM
Doc, the company I came to work for in miss laid off all of us sales reps a long time ago right at Christmas. I could have applied for unemployment but felt I had done a good enough job with a good reputation in the industry that I decided I would get a job before any payments could have started so right after New Years I spent a bunch of money in gas, hotel and meals toi go to a trade show and start interviewing. I left with a job. When IBM closed the office my wife worked for, same deal. She could have applied but we did a lot of research and opened our business.

Like the rest who have started their own business we did without for a long time, put in many long hours and still do but we were not going on that tit unless we just had to. It is what I admire what bad has written so much. My hat is off to him

dan_bgblue
02-13-2013, 06:23 PM
Really?


Let's do a little thought experiment Mr. "I'm too good for unemployment!"


In summation - Your point of view on this matter is myopic and reeks of ignorance.

Doc
02-14-2013, 01:05 PM
I'm the only one that's been personally insulted in this thread, and I'm the small one? Interesting.

Personally I have no problem with being brash with folks. What you won't see me do is deny thats what my intent was. Sorry but "mr too good for unemployment" comment was intended to be an insult. No other way to really see that I can think of. Ditto for the "yawn" comment. Sorry that you find some posts so boring that you have a hard time keeping awake.

To suggest that you are the only one who has been insulted is.... well, myopic and reeks of ignorance.

BigBlueBrock
02-14-2013, 01:07 PM
It wasn't intended to be, and I apologized to you if it was taken that way. Even so, it wasn't nearly on the level of what jazy directed at me.

Doc
02-14-2013, 01:11 PM
It wasn't intended to be, and I apologized to you if it was taken that way. Even so, it wasn't nearly on the level of way jazy directed at me.

I don't disagree.

dan_bgblue
02-15-2013, 03:27 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/15/are-government-benefits-fueling-us-poverty/?test=latestnews

jazyd
02-15-2013, 09:13 PM
I have had people come in and apply for a job with no intentions of wanting a job. When told we had no openings we are asked to fill out a form saying they had applied but turned down, so yea they abuse the system quite regularly

jazyd
02-15-2013, 09:20 PM
[i really don't feel bad about dissing you nor will I apologize. Several months ago you had no problem insulting Christians, their faith and beliefs. You like dishing but can't handle it coming back at you.

A lot of us have disagreements while being civil, you haven't learned that, and your 'too good to do garbage' work is an arrogant comment. I have respect for those guys doing what they do for not a lot of money in all weather conditions and people like you looking down their noses at them. They could be selling drugs, sitting on their butts collecting welfare, but instead they work. It's pride and I thank them for it


QUOTE=BigBlueBrock;56458]It wasn't intended to be, and I apologized to you if it was taken that way. Even so, it wasn't nearly on the level of what jazy directed at me.[/QUOTE]

KeithKSR
02-16-2013, 11:51 AM
I don't begrudge people at all for collecting unemployment insurance. These people were employed and their employers paid into the system.