So Trump was right re wiretapping - Deep State going to apologize?

[CitizenBBN]

Tucker Carlson with a great opening statement on this interesting turn of events (it's a video):

http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/09/19/tucker-carlson-talks-cnn-trump-wiretap-report-paul-manafort-trump-tower


Remember, 6 months ago Trump claimed Trump Tower was wiretapped. It now seems likely that he was right, b/c the FISA court did OK wiretapping of Manefort.

Now we can debate if that guy was supposed to be investigated, if he is guilty, etc. IN this case IMO it really doesn't matter, b/c what I'm fearing isn't Russian collusion to subvert our democracy, but our own institutions and leaders subverting our democracy.

Basically, we don't need Russian help to end liberty in this country, we're doing it to ourselves.

How?

Well, first we have the FISA court, which is all but beyond review, and completely secret. There is no way for the American people to ever determine even post facto that an investigation into someone was fair or persecution. NO way for the People to know what was done.

Then there's the fact that once Trump tweeted about this, that numerous senior people all denied there was any evidence whatosever of a wiretap. Well there apparently WAS a wiretap, obvious evidence that almost assuredly included Trump Tower and may have captured talks between Manafort and others in the campaign. This included denials by the House Speaker, the ranking members of the senate intel committee and the Attorney General.

So we're left with two, equally bad, conclusions:

1) They lied. After all these people ARE supposed to be privy to the orders of the FISA court, they have the clearance. They should have known there were such things, and they didn't just say narrowly that Trump wasn't recorded etc. but acted as if the whole idea was just crazy talk. If that's the case then ranking members of both parties all closed ranks as elites who run this country and lied to the entire American people jointly.

2) They didn't know. This is just as bad if not worse, b/c it means the Deep State is out there getting warrants from FISA for about anything they want without oversight from elected officials. If the ranking members of the Congress and the Dept of Justice didn't know, then we have a deeply rogue government.


I'm not defending Trump on this, I dont' know who is guilty of what, but I'm deeply fearful of how this is playing out, and IMO worrying about Russia undermining us is way down the list of threats to our democracy and nation. WAY down. If this Great Experiment ends it will be b/c we ended it ourselves, not b/c of some outside influence.

[Doc]

Im not seeing this as much different than Watergate. IMO its equally as bad and in ways it is analogous. I firmmy bekieve this wasnt about out Russian involvement but rather.keg up politics...and then there is the cover up

[dan_bgblue]

Others are concerned as well

http://nypost.com/2017/09/19/wiretaps-may-prove-trump-right-and-thats-absolutely-terrifying/

[CitizenBBN]

His story lays out the issue pretty nicely.

First the claim was that no actual Americans were targets, only foreigners and any surveillance was incidental. We now know that was a complete lie.

We also were told by senior former Obama people they didn't know anything about it, only for them to later admit they did (like Susan Rice and the unmasking).

Then we were told there was no wire tapping, and now apparently there was.

Trump or his people may have colluded with Russians in some way, I don't know, but it's also clear our intelligence apparatus was in fact conducting these operations and they are refusing to even cooperate with the Senate investigations in order to hide what they were doing. I find that deeply worrisome. The Senate has clearance, they can conduct closed sessions, and the FBI for example still won't let people come and let Congress fulfill its oversight role.

[DanISSELisdaman]

Sessions needs to be fired and someone put in his place that will investigate anyone and everyone that dirt turns up on, regardless of party or affiliation.

[CitizenBBN]

Sessions needs to be fired and someone put in his place that will investigate anyone and everyone that dirt turns up on, regardless of party or affiliation.

I'm not sure Sessions isn't in on some of what I think is going on in Washington. Either that or he's a naive stooge.

[UKHistory]

You know me and my view of President Trump. That said, it does appears that as Manafort was under investigation that the President was under surveillance indirectly or directly.

Susan Rice has next to no credibility. And our intelligence folks lying to us and the FISA courts are an assault on liberty too.

I do believe Trump's campaign colluded with the Russians. But in the foulest, most boorish manner possible he may have shared a truth. Not a whole truth but still a truth.

[CitizenBBN]

History, Trump or his minions may have colluded. Now that may even be legal or illegal, but even if it's all true it's still an anomalous event. it's not like it will be done every election or infect Senate races, etc. as some ongoing problem. It's bad obviously, but in the end it's not at all clear it's a long term threat to our democracy, esp. if it is exposed the way things are going now.

What is absolutely a real, long term, ongoing and possibly pervasive threat to multiple parts of our democracy is if there really is a deep state of elites and power brokers and career government operatives to retain power in this country.

The truth is that Russia and other nations have at times over the decades engaged in propaganda in this country and tried to sway voters or lobby politicians. In fact we're rife with it, as this investigation has shown. A number of trump people have foreign ties, but a ton of Clinton people have those ties as well. The one thing that is clear is that foreign governments are spending tens of millions to try to lobby in Washington for their interests, and both parties are in on it.

That to me is far more concerning than a particular instance of collusion, b/c IMO the powerful elites in Washington are colluding with foreign governments on a regular basis if we look at the money flow.

But if we have the use of our intelligence apparatus in ways that make Watergate look tame, and senior leaders of both parties going along with it or completely oblivious to it, then we have real problems.

Russia is an externality, you can deal with that stuff. But trying to pull out the roots of an entity willing to release secrets, wire tap people, use all our powers in order to affect the outcomes they want with our democracy? That's all but impossible to address.

[CitizenBBN]

I should add that what will happen is we won't know our democracy is really gone, or mostly so, we'll just keep drinking the elite made Kool Aid, while they fight over who gets how many seats at the table and we all pay their bills no matter who sits and who stands in a given year. They'll all be the in the room at the top of the mountain, we'll be carrying the load.