This estimate sounded way high--any ideas here? 2009 Honda Odyssey Van

[Darrell KSR]

P0420 and P0430 codes pulled -- Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1 and 2)

I'm convinced that they're right that it's that the catalysts are getting clogged up--the van started experiencing a loss of power. They said they smelled a sulfur smell (egg smell), and all of that indicates that diagnosis, together with the codes.

In addition, they tell me that the valve cover gaskets are "leaking pretty good" and should be replaced.

They just quoted a price to fix both of $2,460. And said it could go higher, if the rear banks are also bad, but they won't know that until they get in on bank 1 and bank 2.

I did a little research on replacing the catalytic converter, and it looks like that's about $1,000 usually, give or take a little. Isn't that the entire thing? Or is this something different?

And if so, is replacing "valve cover gaskets" that much more?

2nd issue I have I'm going to take up with Honda. The van was bought brand new. Since it was bought, it has "used" oil. No oil leaks are seen when it is parked, but I put in a good quart every 2 or 3 fill-ups. Usually before 1,000 miles. They told me that the valve cover gaskets leaking could be responsible for the oil leaking, and this really irritates me if that's the case, since I had that into Honda when the car was under warranty, and they tested and claimed nothing was wrong.

I think my choices are to either suck it up and pay the ransom, or take it to my "general" mechanic. This isn't the Honda dealership, but a place that sells cars and specializes in Honda, Lexus, and Volvo, which are three cars I've owned and just had a lot of confidence in them, possibly until now. My "general" mechanic doesn't specialize in any one particular car, but they've done a reasonably good job with my Jeep, my Sentra and my Hyundai (remember, I have 14 gazillion kids, so the cars are a-plenty).

Thoughts to help a poor starving fellow?

[Darrell KSR]

I just called my general mechanic, and spoke to the nice lady I always deal with. Told her what the problems were and asked if she'd get a price for me on it, so I'm at least going to do that.

[dan_bgblue]

Wish I could help but I have never been under the hood of a 2009 Odyssey. Normal 6 cylinder valve cover gasket replacement on a car or truck should be an hour of labor and probably under $25.00 for the parts. On my 06 explorer I could do the job in 30 mins. What I do not know about the Odyssey van is can I get to the back valve cover without having to lower the engine. Lots of times on vans you can not see the back valve covers as they are located under the dash and windshield area.

3 years ago it cost $800.00 in parts for me to change out the Cat converter on the explorer, and I had to have a friend who is licensed for that work to buy the converter for me. Can not just walk in off the street and buy them anymore as theft of them right off of vehicles on the street is really common as they are stolen for the platinum in them. I could not even sell the old one at the junkyard without proper licensing. It does make for a nice conversation piece on a shelf in my garage.

I am confused about the bank 1,2,3,4 stuff so I have no idea how to help. Most vehicles to my knowledge only have one converter in the exhaust system, unless they are high performance engines with true dual exhaust and then that requires 2 converters.

[dan_bgblue]

If there is not emissions testing in Alabama or B'Ham, then you can go the cheap route and cut the old converter out of the exhaust system and replace it with a suitable length of exhaust pipe. Never have a clogged converter again. Depending on where the O2 sensors are located you might have to ignore the check engine light until you sell the vehicle though.

[Darrell KSR]

Yeah, I'm pretty much helpless. So my options are mostly to go to Mechanic "A" or Mechanic "B" and just pay the extortion. Cutting something out (we don't have emissions testing) just wouldn't work for me because the Mechanics wouldn't do it.

What irritates me is that as I've done some research in it, it looks like the catalytic converter could have been clogged, possibly by some oil leakage....meaning that when I told the dealer originally that oil was leaking, and they refused to fix the leak, saying it was within specs, it may have not only caused this need for replacing the gasket valve covers, but also this issue with the catalytic converter.

[dan_bgblue]

Might be worth asking around to see if any of your friends or acquaintances know of a good ole boy mechanic that operates out of his own garage or even in his back yard that does work for hire. Many or most of them probably make good money removing the converter and replacing it with a piece of pipe. They get paid by you and also the junk yard where they take the converter to be recycled. They are worth $#50.00 to $100.00 for scrap

[kingcat]

Id cut the thing out. Cheap fix and the vehicle will run better because of it.
And yes, thats a strange bit of advice from a Democrat I know. ;)

Those are great vehicles. My son-in-law swears (except for the earlier models which have tranny problems) they are the best vehicle on the road. They have an 08 I believe


if the valve covers are leaking much at all, it'll drip on the ground. if you put oil in one there will no doubt be some minor spillage here and there.. Good bait for the old valve cover trick.
I worked at a dealership writing service back in the seventies...so I know that's a customer pay, gravy job for a dealership.
tighten a few bolts, clean the area, and hope for the best. meanwhile their bases are covered if that don't work because they charged you double the street cost to replace the gaskets.

[Catonahottinroof]

A P0430 code is most times an oxygen sensor

[dan_bgblue]

A P0430 code is most times an oxygen sensor

Yup, but is it in bank 1,2,3, or 4? ;-)

[Darrell KSR]

Yeah, I wish it was just an O2 sensor. No doubt it's what they say this time, though. I've had just the O2 sensor before.

[Darrell KSR]

They just called and said it needs an entire new motor.

I'm not having a good Monday.

[Darrell KSR]

So...I am assuming a new motor will be $7500. And I guess, everything else on top of it, so it's more than $10,000.

Think it's time for a new car. Crap.

[dan_bgblue]

Did they tell you what was wrong with the motor that is in the vehicle now?

[Darrell KSR]

Did they tell you what was wrong with the motor that is in the vehicle now?

Dan, the only person I spoke with was the lady at the service desk who called me this morning.

She said, "I hate to give you sad news, but when they cranked it this morning, it had a lot of smoke, so it will need a new motor. Did you decide what you wanted to do with the other, and do you want me to get a quote on replacing the motor?"

Me: "Does a lot of smoke when you crank the engine necessarily mean it needs a new motor? No other causes?"

Her: "Well, it blew a lot of smoke, so they say it needs a new motor."

She wasn't very knowledgeable. As a placeholder and doing a Dean Smith four-corners, I told her that yes, get me a quote to fix up everything in the van (knowing all along no way, no how am I going to do that.)

I jumped on the college where I teach email classifieds--they often have very good vehicles for sale, reasonable (but not bargain) priced, and almost always well-taken care of by a Samford staff member. Nothing being sold right now.

Jumped on a car dealership I do some work for--found a couple of vehicles, but nothing great and priced higher than I wanted. With a daughter starting college, new siding required on my house, buying another car for my daughter so my son can have hers, it's not a great time for me, frankly.

Jumped on craigslist, and saw a crazy good price listed on a Honda Odyssey EX-L 2010 (a year newer than mine), located in Jemison, about 40 miles south of me. I called the guy and turns out he actually has about 250 cars. Buys cars mostly from a GM dealer who repossesses them (I know--I'm wary of that), and sells for a low profit margin. And after speaking with him for 25 minutes, I'm convinced that's the case.

I told him what I was doing and he told me that was crazy. Said no way do you need a new motor in a 2009 Honda Odyssey with 150,000 miles. Just. No. Way. He said that what he'd do is to cut the catalytic converter off and put a pipe on it temporarily to test it out. Run it a couple of days, or a week or two, or whatever--to see if that fixed the problem. Then if I wanted, I could look for a used cat and replace it.

Told me he'd be glad to sell me a car, but thought it was not a good idea under those circumstances, and speculated what was going on at the automotive dealer.

Anyway, very interesting. The guy doesn't have a website, but he puts many of his cars on Craigslist. He said plug in my cell number (same number I called) with no spaces, and do a search for it, and a ton of cars came up....252 ads (many were duplicates). All priced well below KBB. He told me that the Odyssey van I was calling about I would not have wanted, because it was a 3-owner vehicle with 111,000 miles on it, but that if I really wanted to buy a car from him even after looking into the present one, he'd look for something specific for me.

So back to my story....I don't know exactly what I am going to do. Right now I am waiting on the estimate. I suspect I will go back, and attempt to drive it 5 miles to my general mechanic shop, and let them take a look at it. When they tell me the same thing, I am not sure what I do, but if they tell me they'd do something else besides a new motor, I'll do that.

[Darrell KSR]

$7670 is the cost, IF "you don't need a rear catalyst, and we won't know that until we get into it and see."

A tad lower than I thought. That's new motor plus the catalytic converter. Still more than I will spend on the car.

[dan_bgblue]

I told him what I was doing and he told me that was crazy. Said no way do you need a new motor in a 2009 Honda Odyssey with 150,000 miles. Just. No. Way. He said that what he'd do is to cut the catalytic converter off and put a pipe on it temporarily to test it out. Run it a couple of days, or a week or two, or whatever--to see if that fixed the problem. Then if I wanted, I could look for a used cat and replace it.

Making a comment like that sight unseen is a very bold statement, and one I do not completely agree with. The rest of what he said I agree with. Auto dealers do not do engine repair work anymore. They just do replacement work, not repair work on engines. If it is an external part like an alternator, AC compressor, or Cat converter, etc they will replace it, but if it means doing anything internal on the engine, forgetaboutit.

If we had your vehicle in Richmond, Ky at my buddy's shop we could have a straight pipe installed in a couple of hours tops.

Why don't you discuss with your regular mechanic the idea of cutting out the old converter and installing a straight pipe just so you can test drive the vehicle to see if it cures the problem with the promise that if it does you will be back in a week to have a new converter installed? I would think that you would be looking at less than $1,500.00 for parts and labor in that instance if the test drive goes well

[Darrell KSR]

I told him what I was doing and he told me that was crazy. Said no way do you need a new motor in a 2009 Honda Odyssey with 150,000 miles. Just. No. Way. He said that what he'd do is to cut the catalytic converter off and put a pipe on it temporarily to test it out. Run it a couple of days, or a week or two, or whatever--to see if that fixed the problem. Then if I wanted, I could look for a used cat and replace it.

Making a comment like that sight unseen is a very bold statement, and one I do not completely agree with. The rest of what he said I agree with. Auto dealers do not do engine repair work anymore. They just do replacement work, not repair work on engines. If it is an external part like an alternator, AC compressor, or Cat converter, etc they will replace it, but if it means doing anything internal on the engine, forgetaboutit.

If we had your vehicle in Richmond, Ky at my buddy's shop we could have a straight pipe installed in a couple of hours tops.

Why don't you discuss with your regular mechanic the idea of cutting out the old converter and installing a straight pipe just so you can test drive the vehicle to see if it cures the problem with the promise that if it does you will be back in a week to have a new converter installed? I would think that you would be looking at less than $1,500.00 for parts and labor in that instance if the test drive goes well

I think that sounds like a plan. Thank you for that suggestion.

[Darrell KSR]

Well, another day in dizzy land.

Call this morning: "Have some good news. The technician said that we would be overcharging you with that quote, since much of the labor would be done for the catalytic converter with the motor. It will be reduced $900."

Still almost $7k and more than I want to spend on an 8-year old van with 149,000 miles on it.

So I went to a small shop that has one guy that's been doing it a million years and spoke to him. He said he would have done the cutting the cat off and putting a pipe on it, but something about the cars now didn't allow that as well or something, and he said that he didn't know why they didn't just look at the rear cats in the first place. Said that was how you could tell. Also said that he didn't think the motor was blown; it would be an interesting coincidence and he'd like to look at it. So I told him I'd have it towed to him tomorrow and he'll look at it.

[dan_bgblue]

The O2 sensors are, in some cases, actually connected to the Cat converter. By removing that part you are also getting rid of one O2 sensor that is connected to the vehicles computer. Could be what he was talking about

[dan_bgblue]

I love those little one man shops. They have only one thing to keep them in business and that is repeat business. They are honest, fair, and in many cases far smarter than the techs that work for the dealerships.

[Darrell KSR]

I love those little one man shops. They have only one thing to keep them in business and that is repeat business. They are honest, fair, and in many cases far smarter than the techs that work for the dealerships.
He's also swamped all the time but I've used him several times and never had to wait more than two days, which I find very acceptable.

[KeithKSR]

So...I am assuming a new motor will be $7500. And I guess, everything else on top of it, so it's more than $10,000.

Think it's time for a new car. Crap.

Go to an independent local guy. My daughter paid $400 for a motor for her 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee and paid $350 to have it installed.

The Honda may have four catalytic converter, bank one and two would refer to the front set on the left and right side.

Cheapest way to repair converters and not replace with straight pipe is buy off eBay, and then have someone bolt the new ones in. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=2009+honda+odyssey&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X2009+hond a+odyssey+catalytic+converters.TRS0&_nkw=2009+honda+odyssey+catalytic+converters&_sacat=0

[KeithKSR]

Well, another day in dizzy land.

Call this morning: "Have some good news. The technician said that we would be overcharging you with that quote, since much of the labor would be done for the catalytic converter with the motor. It will be reduced $900."

Still almost $7k and more than I want to spend on an 8-year old van with 149,000 miles on it.

So I went to a small shop that has one guy that's been doing it a million years and spoke to him. He said he would have done the cutting the cat off and putting a pipe on it, but something about the cars now didn't allow that as well or something, and he said that he didn't know why they didn't just look at the rear cats in the first place. Said that was how you could tell. Also said that he didn't think the motor was blown; it would be an interesting coincidence and he'd like to look at it. So I told him I'd have it towed to him tomorrow and he'll look at it.

Is the engine getting hot? Back pressure from a stopped up converter will cause overheating, which could be misdiagnosed as a blown head gasket.

$7500 for repairs of any kind for a 2009 Odyssey is wasted money. That amount exceeds the clean trade-in value for most versions of the 2009 Odyssey. http://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/2009/Honda/Odyssey-V6/Wagon-5D-EX-L/Values

[Darrell KSR]

I haven't heard back from the guy yet, so I suspect it will be Tuesday. He's not open on Saturday's, and Monday is a holiday.

No, it didn't overheat. Literally, my wife was at a shopping center (the Summit), started the car, and headed down the highway. Not 2 miles down the highway it began losing power as described above. No overheating, no nothing. So we're hopeful it's just the catalytic converter backup or something.

I'm not sure the dollar amount I put in it before I say, "enough." Car has followed maintenace schedule by the manufacturer to a "T," and other than minor issues, been solid. I know how it has been treated, so I'd rather fix it than replace it with something "similar," but no way would I put $7500 in it. That's ridiculous.

[Darrell KSR]

So he called me...told me that yes, the engine was smoking badly, missing badly, and it was rare in a Honda for that to be the case. Said he wouldn't recommend putting in a new engine on it, though, just wasn't worth it. But he did offer the option of putting in a used engine.

Honda engine, used. Hmm.

Cost still around $5k, but I thought about it, and car has been well taken care of, we know it, etc., and if the Honda motors are as reliable, it's a pretty good risk this one may last, right? So I called the guy back today after thinking on it overnight, and said let's go ahead and replace everything and put in a used motor.

He said fine, that he had "one motor replacement" ahead of me, so it would be "a few weeks."

WEEKS?

I literally said, "Ok, I'll let my wife know," and hung up before I realized he didn't say "days."

Is that reasonable? I know it's a small shop, and I'm willing to wait, and if that's what it takes, that's what it takes--but I'll need to add on the cost of renting a car for a month to this if that's the case, as no way can we get by that long without a car.

[dan_bgblue]

I just did a quick search and saw lots of used Engines for your vehicle with 70,000 to 110,000 miles and they are priced at $900.00 to $1,300.00.

$4,000.00 labor and misc supplies seems to be dang high to pull the old one and drop in another one.

[KeithKSR]

$5K for a used motor and labor is pretty high.

[PedroDaGr8]

$5K for a used motor and labor is pretty high.
Agreed, mine was $2300, inclusive of all labor IIRC

Sent from my LGLS992 using Tapatalk

[Darrell KSR]

Pardon my ignorance - but does a replacement motor include replacing the catalytic converter, too?

[dan_bgblue]

If the mechanic knows it is defective then he probably included it in the estimate, but there is no guarantee that he did. I would ask to make sure

[Darrell KSR]

If the mechanic knows it is defective then he probably included it in the estimate, but there is no guarantee that he did. I would ask to make sure
He did. The price included all. Given that the first place quoted a minimum of $2460 for just the front cats, he seems like he's giving a reasonable price.

I was more concerned about the several weeks time frame.

[KeithKSR]

He did. The price included all. Given that the first place quoted a minimum of $2460 for just the front cats, he seems like he's giving a reasonable price.

I was more concerned about the several weeks time frame.

That's pretty high for replacement of the front converters. Converters run from well under $200 to just over $300 each, depending on source. That is $2000 in labor, which is pretty high.

[KeithKSR]

Pardon my ignorance - but does a replacement motor include replacing the catalytic converter, too?

Only if it is in the estimate. Replacing the converters is a cake job with the motor out.

[Darrell KSR]

I don't think this guy is anywhere near the type to overcharge, guys. Dave Rainoldi is the salt of the earth kinda guy, charges a fair price for the work he does. So I'm not disturbed by his quote--which includes fixing everything, not just the motor replacement.

What disturbs me is the "several weeks" wait. That's the part I wonder if it is reasonable or not. It's a small shop; I get having to wait, and willing to do that--it's not a bad time to do it, during the summer, and actually, it may hasten my search for my daughter's car, so we can have her old Jeep as a spare vehicle before my son begins driving it. And if he had said, "it'll be a few days," or "it'll be a week to 10 days," or something like that, I would have been disappointed, but understood.

But several weeks? Is this just the price I pay when I go to a small independent shop that is constantly busy?

[KeithKSR]

I don't think this guy is anywhere near the type to overcharge, guys. Dave Rainoldi is the salt of the earth kinda guy, charges a fair price for the work he does. So I'm not disturbed by his quote--which includes fixing everything, not just the motor replacement.

What disturbs me is the "several weeks" wait. That's the part I wonder if it is reasonable or not. It's a small shop; I get having to wait, and willing to do that--it's not a bad time to do it, during the summer, and actually, it may hasten my search for my daughter's car, so we can have her old Jeep as a spare vehicle before my son begins driving it. And if he had said, "it'll be a few days," or "it'll be a week to 10 days," or something like that, I would have been disappointed, but understood.

But several weeks? Is this just the price I pay when I go to a small independent shop that is constantly busy?

Typically a small shop will work on pulling and replacing an engine a little at a time between other jobs or after hours. At least that is the way a friend of mine does it at his shop. It allows the shop to charge less than devoting a big chunk of time all at once does.

I liked the old vehicles when an engine swap was a few hours of work.

[Darrell KSR]

That makes sense. I think I need to buy my daughter's new (to her) car, and let my wife drive my car and me drive the old Jeep for awhile. That beats renting a car for a month.

[KeithKSR]

That makes sense. I think I need to buy my daughter's new (to her) car, and let my wife drive my car and me drive the old Jeep for awhile. That beats renting a car for a month.

That sounds like a good plan.

[Darrell KSR]

Surprised me, but my mechanic called today and the Odyssey was ready. He called last Friday and wanted get approval to get a used engine that was $500 more than the one he quoted because it had substantially fewer miles on it. I told him to go ahead.

Bill was $5200, including brand new catalytic converter, replacement engine, all fluids, labor, and taxes. Hard for me to say it, but that seemed reasonable.