My Current gun wish list

[Darrell KSR]

Hoping that prices stay the same, or go down, until I have some excess spending money. That might be 2032.

It has changed from time to time. I was really hot for the Taurus Judge for awhile. Now, not so much, as my "living" has changed a little and travel to the point where I don't think it would be as useful.

At this point, I'm interested in...

◘ Glock 19. Just a staple that I really would like to have. I like 9mm, have one Smith & Wesson 39-2 that I like to shoot, but don't really want as a true self-defense weapon. More on that in a minute. 3rd generation would be fine for me; I like the angle of the grip as opposed to what everybody else in the world makes, and what Glock is trying to "fix" with later weapons.

◘ 20 gauge pump shotgun with a pistol grip. At home, self-defense, and something my wife might use if needed. Found a Stevens model that GunsAmerica wrote an article on that I really liked, for $264 and the price on that was great.

◘ I have mentioned that I want a .22 rifle from time to time--shouldn't everybody own one of these? I have, for months, said I wanted a bolt action, maybe something that would take a 7-shot magazine. Not an automatic, because I intend to use some subsonic ammunition in it that won't cycle in an automatic, so I have a peculiar use for it. Probably ought to be the first purchase I make.

◘ Not a gun, but I mentioned above that I like the Smith & Wesson 39-2. I do need to get it fitted with a laser sight, and potentially have my wife get used to that gun, although I'm not sure that I like it. I like the KISS principle on the defense weapons, and the safety I like is just an internal safety, and not an external one, so that there are fewer things to remember when the need arises to use the weapon. That goes back to the Glock 19, which I think my wife could use better than the S&W 39-2, although it is a sweet shooting pistol.

[KSRBEvans]

Mrs. BEvans has been talking awhile about getting her concealed carry license. A colleague of hers invited us out to his farm for some shooting. We shot about 10 different handguns, and I came away really liking the Glock 43 and she really liked a Walther P22 that her colleague's wife carries. They both said that if we go with a 22 to look at the Ruger SR22. So those are the 2 guns we're thinking about right now.

[bigsky]

.22 Revolver S&W (34?) stainless for the bride

[Darrell KSR]

Mrs. BEvans has been talking awhile about getting her concealed carry license. A colleague of hers invited us out to his farm for some shooting. We shot about 10 different handguns, and I came away really liking the Glock 43 and she really liked a Walther P22 that her colleague's wife carries. They both said that if we go with a 22 to look at the Ruger SR22. So those are the 2 guns we're thinking about right now.

I like that Glock 43, too. I have the model 36, and like the single stack a lot in .45 ACP. If she'll carry the 43, I'd be a big proponent of that.

If 9mm is more than she wants to carry, have you looked at the Glock 42? It's chambered in .380, which I personally don't like as well, but a lot of people do, and it seems to be a happy compromise option.

[Darrell KSR]

.22 Revolver S&W (34?) stainless for the bride

That's an attractive revolver, if it's the one I'm thinking of. What kind of grips would you get on it?

[CitizenBBN]

If you're going 22 for self defense I'd lean towards getting it in 22 WMR, a decent step up in punch for no real difference in recoil. Not many autos in it but you can get revolvers with LR/WMR cylinders, or derringers of course. NAA and others make some tiny, VERY tiny 22s even in WMR.

The Walther P22 is a slick gun to shoot. There are reports that it doesn't cycle well with all ammo, the slide is fairly heavy for a 22 to have enough force to cycle. The CCI minimags will work in it like a charm, but I've shot several types through it and been fine.

For non-carry it's hard to beat the old Ruger Standards and later Mark Series. A little funky to take down but it's a tack driver of a gun and easy to shoot. I keep one just for carry classes as a loaner b/c it's something everyone can shoot pretty well.

[Darrell KSR]

I enjoy my Mark I standard. Very fun to shoot.

[bigsky]

That's an attractive revolver, if it's the one I'm thinking of. What kind of grips would you get on it? It is. Wife wants nothing to do with semi-auto. I dont blame her, and I already have the High Standard and Ruger target pistols. What I dont want is one of the cheapies floating around, or the Ruger SingleShot. Been lookin for a while, enuff to know. The Rugers that are double action none shot are a bit big for her hand.

The stock grips are small, good for a small hand.

[KeithKSR]

My list is kind of short, for me. A 9mm semi-auto, really like the looks of the S&W M&P9. A Ruger Vaquero in .357; I like shooting a single action for fun. A Mossberg MVP Patrol, this is a bolt-action rifle chambered in .223 and uses the same magazine as my AR.

[CGWildcat]

I'm going to ask for CCW here in Sonoma County California.....could get interesting

[dan_bgblue]

Please let us know what happens after they stop laughing, or maybe they do not laugh and move right to calling the local police dept.

[CitizenBBN]

I'm going to ask for CCW here in Sonoma County California.....could get interesting

Wow, good luck. That is to say, did you just have a day to kill? ;)

I don't pretend to be an expert in Cali CCDW laws, but as I get it it's up to the county sheriff as to whether to give one out and in most counties they simply don't issue them. Actually that was a common situation in a lot of states and the legislatures put in "shall issue" laws where presumption was reversed and they had to issue unless there was cause to deny, as specified in the law.

Cali still is "may issue", and they just refuse to do it unless you're important enough. I'll be very curious to hear about your experience.

[suncat05]

My list is kind of short, for me. A 9mm semi-auto, really like the looks of the S&W M&P9. A Ruger Vaquero in .357; I like shooting a single action for fun. A Mossberg MVP Patrol, this is a bolt-action rifle chambered in .223 and uses the same magazine as my AR.

Those Mossberg MVP rifles are nice rifles. I'd like to have one of those myself, with a good optic on it, like a Burris Eliminator. It never hurts to have a good bolt action rifle in the safe.

[KeithKSR]

Those Mossberg MVP rifles are nice rifles. I'd like to have one of those myself, with a good optic on it, like a Burris Eliminator. It never hurts to have a good bolt action rifle in the safe.

I really like Savage bolt action rifles, but like that the Mosberg MVP accepts the same mags that my AR takes.

Burris makes some very good optics. I have a Burris Fullfield II on my Savage 110 30-06, makes a great deer combo.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Just agreed to buy one, not really on my wish list. Custom build AR .556 from a friend for $550. We haven't agreed on the details of what is coming on it yet, but I don't really mind. I just like that the liberals won't know I have it. He needed to sell it to buy a shotgun so it works for both of us.

I've been wanting an AR style rifle, but didn't really want the 556.

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[CitizenBBN]

Out of curiosity what did you want it in if not 556?

[KentuckyWildcat]

Out of curiosity what did you want it in if not 556?
I've thought about the .556, so me saying I didn't want it is not really accurate.

But if I could prioritize my list:

I would like a 7.62, like the mutant or something along those lines. An AR/AK hybrid. But most of those are more than I want to spend.

Next would be an AR9.

Even thought about AR that shoots the 410 round.

Those 3 just because I have that ammo already.

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[KeithKSR]

I've thought about the .556, so me saying I didn't want it is not really accurate.

But if I could prioritize my list:

I would like a 7.62, like the mutant or something along those lines. An AR/AK hybrid. But most of those are more than I want to spend.

Next would be an AR9.

Even thought about AR that shoots the 410 round.

Those 3 just because I have that ammo already.

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By 7.62 are you referring to the 7.62x39? The Ruger Mini 30 is something that falls into a similar category.

[KentuckyWildcat]

By 7.62 are you referring to the 7.62x39? The Ruger Mini 30 is something that falls into a similar category.
How does it compare to the SKS?

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[CitizenBBN]

The Mini 30 is a good gun, the 7.62 chambering of the Mini 14 (which is 556).

The difference really is the difference between American guns and Soviet style guns. Better made, more machined, more precise, versus looser but able to function in a mud puddle. The Mini 30 is plenty reliable and better in harsh conditions than a lot of american guns, arguably more so than the AR platform, but probably not as good in super harsh conditions as the SKS or AK. The looser tolerances of those designs mean they are just harder to mess up.

that said Ruger makes a great gun and I've never seen a side by side test and if I had a Mini 14 or 30 I wouldn't soak them in a mud puddle to do said test.

I recently sold a Saiga in 12 ga, really hated to sell it. AK platform with a 10 round 12 gauge mag. Now that's a home defense gun.

[KeithKSR]

How does it compare to the SKS?

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It is much better built, has detachable magazines, and is overall a lot better gun. There are loads of aftermarket accessories for the mini 30 and the mini 14 both. The name comes from the rifle resembling a smaller M-14, but mechanically it is closer to the M1 Garand.

I consider my SKS a poor boy's Mini 30. If I had the spare cash lying around I'd swap my SKS for one in a hurry, and I really like my SKS. Here is the Ruger page: http://www.ruger.com/products/miniThirty/models.html

Bud's has them priced where they are at most places, a buck or two under $800. https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/2084_36_59_80/products_id/69842

[KeithKSR]

I recently sold a Saiga in 12 ga, really hated to sell it. AK platform with a 10 round 12 gauge mag. Now that's a home defense gun.

That may have been a good investment gun. They are harder to come by and inching toward that 4 digit mark in price, and in some cases have eclipsed the $1K barrier.

[Darrell KSR]

Just a note that I spent a few minutes with the G43 the other day when my daughter's fiance was in town. It is his CCW. I had my G36 out, and was amazed at how much smaller and more concealable the G43 was that the G36.

I really like the .45 caliber for me, but man...for conceability, you can't beat the G43, and still with more than adequate power (IMHO).


Mrs. BEvans has been talking awhile about getting her concealed carry license. A colleague of hers invited us out to his farm for some shooting. We shot about 10 different handguns, and I came away really liking the Glock 43 and she really liked a Walther P22 that her colleague's wife carries. They both said that if we go with a 22 to look at the Ruger SR22. So those are the 2 guns we're thinking about right now.


I like that Glock 43, too. I have the model 36, and like the single stack a lot in .45 ACP. If she'll carry the 43, I'd be a big proponent of that.

If 9mm is more than she wants to carry, have you looked at the Glock 42? It's chambered in .380, which I personally don't like as well, but a lot of people do, and it seems to be a happy compromise option.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Got the AR today. Hope to shoot it this weekend.

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[Critter]

In the past two months I've acquired a couple of toys:

The HK VP9 - (9mm)

6133


Walther made HK 22lr MP5

6134

Both are fun to shoot. Wanted the VP9 for my full sized gun. I have a 9mm S&W Sheild for my CC.

That MP5 makes you feel like a Nazy Seal :rockon:. It's badass!
I don't mind that it is a 22 because if I'm going to go thru that many rounds I'd rather pay $0.10 a round than $0.25.

[ukblue]

Darrell, if you are looking for a nice.22 rifle you might try the .22 pump that Henry sells. You can shot .22 short and.22 long and a .22lr all the same time. Hope this helps

[suncat05]

THE very best. 22 LR rifle made is easily the Ruger 10-22. Hands down, at least in my humble opinion.

[Darrell KSR]

I love the idea of a 22 pump rifle. That one looks great. Unfortunately, it is out of my price range for the little toy I'd like. That one sure looks good, though.

[Darrell KSR]

THE very best. 22 LR rifle made is easily the Ruger 10-22. Hands down, at least in my humble opinion.
I think that's a pretty widespread opinion, and the price is very good for what you get. Unfortunately, I am not looking for a semi-automatic for the cycling reasons of using subsonic ammo. You know me, I always have these peculiar things.

[dan_bgblue]

This might be an option. It handles , shorts, longs, and long rifle ammo in a tube magazine, and is not to pricey at this online store. Reviews are good but they all seem to indicate it is ammo brand sensitive. So find one that works well for you and stick to it

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/marlin-xt-22tsr-bolt-action-rifle-22-lr-22-barrel-tube-magazine-17-rounds-stainless-synthetic-026495708238.do

[Darrell KSR]

Looks very good, Dan. I like that a lot.

[CitizenBBN]

Darrell, I can pick you up a nice bolt action 22, mag fed. No problem. I get a number of the older Remingtons, they're all great rifles. I won't send you mine, it was my uncle's, but I get them through from estates. One of the things I find most often, along with double barrel shotguns.

[dan_bgblue]

Mag fed are limited to LR cartridges aren't they?

[Darrell KSR]

Darrell, I can pick you up a nice bolt action 22, mag fed. No problem. I get a number of the older Remingtons, they're all great rifles. I won't send you mine, it was my uncle's, but I get them through from estates. One of the things I find most often, along with double barrel shotguns.
Keep an eye out for one for me, CBBN. Something inexpensive that I could use in my backyard against critters when needed. Would appreciate it.

[CitizenBBN]

Depends Dan. I have shot all 3 in my old Remington. I wouldn't want to rely on it for military speed bolt maneuvers, but it worked OK for plinking. LR would be more reliable but I shot shorts OK. Had to just load it slower. That was a Remington 511 ( the mag fed version of the 510) the Targetmaster.

It's been 30 years though since I shot shorts in it, back when I was a kid and shot whatever I could get.

I could get him a gallery gun, they were designed for shorts, or the newer Taurus remake, but someone is on a budget, not mentioning any names....

Wonder if the old Nylon series would shoot shorts. I get those in OK condition too for a fair price, but not as cheap as the older Remingtons. I can get a good one with a little wear for $100 pretty readily. Nicer ones are more of course, sold one in near mint last gun auction that did a lot better bc it's dang hard to find one 99% original finish and no pitting. Those things were used by every kid in America.

[CitizenBBN]

Keep an eye out for one for me, CBBN. Something inexpensive that I could use in my backyard against critters when needed. Would appreciate it.

Do you need to cycle fast or is this a single shot type endeavor? Dan is right shorts don't cycle as well even in these older guns even if they are marked for it. Of course the single shots are all options too, but I do prefer the mag, even if you have to finesse it it's still easier.

[dan_bgblue]

With a tube magazine, I never have any problems at all shooting either in my Remington semiauto. I did not know if that would be true with a clip/box magazine.

[CitizenBBN]

I thought he may do better with a tube fed as well. I haven't used one with shorts really in forever. Don't own any, have used a few but not owned one.

[Darrell KSR]

Oh, my "need" for it is probably minimal. But my perceived need is plinking, and occasional eradication of varmints up close. To that extent, if a well-placed shot (or a well-intended) does not accomplish the task, certainly, I'd like to be able to get round # 2 off quickly enough. I wouldn't call it rapid fire, though.

[dan_bgblue]

Definitely want to be able to defend yourself when that racoon turns on you

[CitizenBBN]

Definitely want to be able to defend yourself when that racoon turns on you

The butt of the rifle will work better than the 22 at that range. :)

[Darrell KSR]

The butt of the rifle will work better than the 22 at that range. :)

I was watching "top 10 most dangerous moments" of the TV show, "Swamp People" last night. "Bruce" from (Hammond?) was one at the top. He was out alligator fishing/hunting by himself. He was explaining how careful he was, and showed his rifle, along with a backup revolver he kept in a minnow bucket, along with his knife.

Anyway, he fell out of the boat (of course) with the alligator, and his life was (apparently) in danger. He reaches into the front pocket of his overalls, pulls out a snub-nosed revolver (the other was more like a Colt long barrelled thing), and he snipes the gator on top of him. He kinda grins, and says it's hard to miss from 2 inches away.

I don't want to test that theory with a coon, thanks.

[KeithKSR]

Remington, Winchester, Springfield, etc all made single shot bolt action .22s that ate any ammo you loaded in them.

[KentuckyWildcat]

You need this one Darrell. Actually can't wait until my girls can get something like this.

6145

[CitizenBBN]

I tried to get him a hot purple SCCY, no go. Said he wanted Tennessee Orange or nothing.

The cricket rifles are fun. I started with a full size 22, but anything that gets kids into shooting is great in my book.

[ukblue]

Chuck, if you ever run into a "RJ Stevens model 311, double barreled 3" mag . Double triggers, also the longer barrels would be preferred let me know.

[Darrell KSR]

You need this one Darrell. Actually can't wait until my girls can get something like this.

6145


I tried to get him a hot purple SCCY, no go. Said he wanted Tennessee Orange or nothing.

The cricket rifles are fun. I started with a full size 22, but anything that gets kids into shooting is great in my book.

That would *almost* work lol.

[KeithKSR]

That would *almost* work lol.

This is probably more in line with what you will want: https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/2084_36_758/products_id/83385/Mossberg+&+Sons+38222+802+Plinkster+Varmint+Bolt+22+LR+21%22 +1

Mossberg plinkster bolt action. 6152

I wouldn't mind having one of those.

[Darrell KSR]

This is probably more in line with what you will want: https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/2084_36_758/products_id/83385/Mossberg+&+Sons+38222+802+Plinkster+Varmint+Bolt+22+LR+21%22 +1

Mossberg plinkster bolt action. 6152

I wouldn't mind having one of those.

Yessir, that looks like it would do just fine.

[KeithKSR]

The Marlin XT-22 is also a good $200 option: http://m.dickssportinggoods.com/p/marlin-model-xt-22-bolt-action-rifle-15remaxt22wdblxxxrif/15remaxt22wdblxxxrif?&color=

6153

[KSRBEvans]

I like that Glock 43, too. I have the model 36, and like the single stack a lot in .45 ACP. If she'll carry the 43, I'd be a big proponent of that.

If 9mm is more than she wants to carry, have you looked at the Glock 42? It's chambered in .380, which I personally don't like as well, but a lot of people do, and it seems to be a happy compromise option.

So Mrs. BEvans just got the Ruger SR22, which now has me thinking of a concealed carry weapon of my own. I'm still thinking the Glock 43, but the Glock 36 in .45 ACP has me intrigued. For Darrell and anyone who's fired both, what are your thoughts?

[Darrell KSR]

I prefer shooting the 36 and carrying the 43 (if I owned it, which I don't).

I carry two different ways and I'm fine with the single stack 36, but a buddy of mine says it's just too big for him to carry. That defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

It's not at all for me, although there are times I carry the S&W 642, 38 revolver when it's just better due to what I'm wearing or circumstances.

But I love shooting the 36. Has a nice cannon like sound, isn't snappy and doesn't kick up like some lighter guns, and will have the knockdown power if it is ever needed. I'm just a huge fan of it. With one in the chamber it has 7 shots, and I sometimes carry an extra magazine or two.

I would have no hesitation recommending the 43, though. I think 9mm is fine, even as much as I like 45 caliber.

[CitizenBBN]

Can't go wrong with the Glock. Haven't shot either of those but most I talk to are with Darrell, they like the 36 but it can be just a hair big for carry in many circumstances.

I mostly carry revolvers, though I do have a Kel Tec 380 and a 9mm that I use when the revolver wont' work. The 380 doesn't have much punch but you can hide it anywhere. That's the same size as the Ruger LCR and several others.

I recommend one of those as your backup to your carry. When I'm going somewhere and just can't wear the revolver I can carry that 380 in a pocket holster. At least it's something, and I'm a good shot, so it ought to be useful.

But if I were looking for a new piece right now I'd add to taht GLock list the Springfield xds. They have a single stack 45 that is 5+1 capacity and really small. It's comparable to the Glock 43. About the same length, a hair longer in the grip though, which isn't all bad (4.25" v 4.4").

Anyway, it's one I'd definitely go test if I were in the market in that size range.

Of course outside that there are a host of others, from the S&Ws to the Beretta Nano (9mm).

IMO, and you already know this, the biggest thing is to get to a range or at least a store and hold everything you're considering. In the end all of these guns are high end, very reliable guns you can count on. Then it's just down to what you can shoot and operate well.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Not really on my list but I got a good deal on a few AK magazines. Now I need an AK...:)

[CitizenBBN]

AK? what kind? I've got a Draco pistol, Romanian WASRs, Saiga, Norinco MAK90s. let me know.

Had a Saiga 12 gauge, sold it, may have wished I kept that one. Got a Century in 308, couple of other odder pieces.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Honestly I do not know much about them. Never wanted one until about 8 hours ago lol I was buying a few AR magazines and got these at a deal with that. I fear 30 round mags will get banned at some point so I bought them.

PSA has some decent prices but that is about as far as I have researched. PM me your prices.

I do like the 7.62x39 round, just never wanted an AK.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Nothing rare and expensive. Just something that shoots and is dependable.

[CitizenBBN]

I'll see what I've got. I don't deal much these days but I have a good stock of SKSs and AKs left among other things.

[suncat05]

I like the AK because it will shoot under the harshest of conditions. Extremely reliable. But not accurate past about 250 yards, no matter how clean you keep the barrel & the action. And the price of the 7.62 x 39 ammo is excellent in today's market.
But I am a little prejudiced towards my AR-15 and it's variants, it's what I was trained in and know the most about.
But there is nothing wrong with an AK. Nothing.
Speaking of which, before we left for the Philippines & Australia, I had a chance to handle & shoot a Gen 5 Glock 19.
Let's just say that I am now officially on board with Glock. I could see myself buying one of these for either "the Boss" or myself.

[suncat05]

I also really like the S&W M&P Compact in 9mm. Small, very accurate, and the prices on them are actually a bit cheaper than the Gen 5 Glock 19. Just a very nice piece of gun hardware.

[KeithKSR]

Nothing rare and expensive. Just something that shoots and is dependable.

Those mags fit in the holy grail of SKS, the SKS-D.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Those mags fit in the holy grail of SKS, the SKS-D.

Did not know that. I have two SKS but I'm not sure what they are.

[Darrell KSR]

Have a couple other comments to make, but thought I'd give a video show first on my pocket holster of choice--a Robert Mika hand-made, crafted pocket holster. Just perfect, and reasonably priced.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdgMghgAay0

Also--here's a great video made by Robert Mika--retired L.A. police officer who does this business. GREAT guy. He called me on New Year's Eve about my order. When my local post office "lost" my order for several weeks (they found it eventually), he offered to make me a replacement one at no charge, which I refused. I told him that I would order another one from him and pay for it, but fortunately, they "found" my package.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY9mcCcgpvs

[KeithKSR]

Did not know that. I have two SKS but I'm not sure what they are.

The D is a Norinco that was factory built to accept AK magazines.

[CitizenBBN]

Those mags fit in the holy grail of SKS, the SKS-D.

I have one I'd part with for the right offer. :) I picked it up and have held onto it, but everything's for sale.

KW -- only a small number of SKSs were made to hold AK mags. You'll be able to tell b/c the standard SKS mag is a 10 round mag that is fixed to the gun and swings open like a Remington other rifle base plate. If it's been modified to take removable mags they have a long attachment arm on them and are called "duckbill" magazines b/c of it.

The SKS-D was made by Norinco from scratch with a mag well designed for the AK. B/c the AK mags are so much easier to pack and tote than SKS with those duckbills, and so plentiful, people really like them.

I may have 2 of them in fact. Can't remember, I think I picked one up 3-4 years ago, but this last one I got just this year. I really like the SKS, know them pretty well.

[CitizenBBN]

The D is a Norinco that was factory built to accept AK magazines.

Beat me to it while I was typing, lol. Good guns overall.

I like the SKS. Like the AK, good reliable guns. Bit more accurate than the AK as well on average.

[CitizenBBN]

Suncat --

I love the AK, and the SKS, for their reliability. Can soak them in mud and they still fire just fine, mud flying out of them left and right.

They'll never be as accurate as a well tuned AR, just not built for that purpose. But the AK was in part built due to research showing that the vast majority of firefights occur well within 100 yards, so it's just not needed to be accurate past 250. Matters for serious hunting, but not for defense or even small game, woodland or varmint hunting.

Of course you already know all of that, I'm just talking to hear myself talk about AKs b/c I will sit an an empty room at talk about guns. :)

the SKS can get a bit better accuracy, and still able to shoot while full of mud, but the AK is a better design for its purpose, closer range engagements with an enemy shooting back at you.

I think everyone needs an AR, SKS and an AK, and hopefully everyone needs 4-5 of each. :)

[suncat05]

I'm in 100% agreement with you CBBN!
I honestly do not know a lot about the SKS, although I have shot a couple of them.
The AK-47 I do know about due to my Army training with them. Uncle Sugar likes his troops well trained in the ways & equipment of our enemies, to that I can attest.
I have always been amazed at how well an AK-47 will function flawlessly under the harshest conditions.
I would love to see the Tavor that the Israelis are transitioning to, and the new rifles that our Chinese enemies are moving into as well. IIRC from my conversation with one of my old Army buddies, both rifles are comparable in form & function, if indeed it might be the same rifle.

[suncat05]

IIRC, he told me that the Israeli Tavor is chambered in 5.56 mm, while the Chinese rifle is in 5.45 mm?
And after all of the complaining that the 5.56 mm isn't a good combat round? 😨

[CitizenBBN]

The chinese in 5.45 makes sense. for all the comparisons of the 5.56 and the 7.62, the Russians moved to the smaller 5.45x39 in the mid 70s and the AK74 was the the standard service weapon for the USSR and Eastern Bloc, despite the AK47 being the most popular military rifle in the history of the world.

Even the Soviets went with a lighter and higher velocity round more like the 5.56mm. Weight matters a lot and they're lighter and you can carry more.

It's interesting to me the AK74 really has little traction in the US. I've sold a couple, and some ammo, but the 7.62x39mm is the king of the non-US rounds no doubt.

[Darrell KSR]

I'm sorta out of the loop on the rifle discussion, but I mentioned that i had a couple other comments to make about the questions BEvans made and CitizenBBN's comments, so I'll add them here. Hope that doesn't mess up the discussion.

Back to the carry question.

The first thing is--if you're going to carry, carry. And if you're going to carry, make sure you get a gun you WILL carry. So to do that the first thing you have to decide may be the most important one.

How will you carry? Will the gun you choose fit those parameters?

I carry IWB (5%) and pocket carry (95%), although that can change at a moment's notice. The G 36 I have is plenty small enough for IWB, probably for almost anybody who carries that way. I have carried a slightly larger weapon, and have friends who do regularly, via IWB. But make sure that isn't too big/uncomfortable for you. Frankly, I *like* a slight discomfort feeling. I want to know it is there all the time. That's a huge plus to me when I carry in that fashion.

If you're an unusual person (I guess it's more unusual than other) and pocket carry, as I do, make sure you are even more comfortable with that. I have, for years, carried a Costanza-sized wallet (actually bigger) in my front pocket. I often carry a bunch of keys there, my cell phone, a decent-sized folding knife, etc. In short, I am used to carrying crap in my front pockets. When I pocket carry, I have two front pockets that have my stuff in it, but one of them is just my 36. Unless the pants have a very "short" pocket--which is unusual for me--it works very fine. But check your own clothes for the size of the pocket, and check your comfort level. If it's too big, and you will occasionally decide not to carry because of it, you have selected the wrong gun. (I do carry my revolver on rare occasion, and sometimes with two speed loaders-but it's rare).

I looked at the XDS CitizenBBN mentioned, and like it as a great choice as well. Have a buddy that went to buy one, and accidentally bought the 9mm version instead. He literally screwed up buying the caliber, but decided just to keep it, even though he had fairly similar 9mm weapon and no .45. Anyway, it's a tad smaller, although about the same weight, same height, just a tad shorter.

What I didn't like about it is the aggressive grip. Call me soft, but it was uncomfortable in my hand. YMMV. Great weapon, though. I think the normal mag is 5 rounds for it, rather than 6, unless you get the extended mag, so you lose a round as well.

Enough about carry, but I really think that's critical. If the 36 (or the XDS chambered in .45) is too big--fine, go with a compact 9mm. That's a better choice if you'll carry it.

Then let's move to shooting it. As CitizenBBN said, what you can shoot with and operate is key. I have a nice Smith & Wesson 39-2 9mm pistol that shoots oh-so sweet. But it's not as "natural" to me as the Glock. Safety and stuff just sorta messes with my mind, unless I'm target practicing. I don't like that. I like having an internal safety and nothing else. I want to not have to think, but react when self-defense is an issue. For me, it's critical that all I have to do is to aim and fire and not worry about whether safety is on or off. Just don't like a thumb safety.

Shooting itself. There are a lot of reviews on the internet--here's one (http://concealednation.org/2015/12/firearm-review-glock-36-single-stack-45-acp-that-nobodys-talking-about/) that I think hits much of the things I like about the 36.

Very accurate. The author says "extremely accurate at 30 feet." That's about as good as you can expect, IMHO.

Recoil--in the words of the article, "Perfect." The author expected it to have "major recoil" and to "jump" and "crack" similar to his S&W shield .40 caliber, especially since he was working with a compact .45.

Instead--nothing like that at all. "Very easy" handling. I can also attest to that.

Author rated the 36 on a 5.0 point scale and had "recoil" at a perfect 5.0. For a compact .45 caliber? Are you kidding? Nope--I can shoot it all day, and it stays on target.

Anyway, I didn't mean to tout the 36 like this, but I do think it is a vastly underrated Glock with a super-nice niche, if it fits your lifestyle.

If not--there is absolutely nothing wrong with a G 43 which feels fantastic in your hand, or the XDS (.45 or 9mm), as long as you don't have baby soft hands where the aggressive grip is not comfortable.

But shoot whatever you think you want. What a huge key. What I think is "great" recoil, you may find not pleasing for whatever reason. Also, Glocks in general have a different angle (depending on generation), and some like it, some love it, some hate it. So put it in your hand and make sure you like it. I do. A lot. I try others and just don't like them as much. I think it fits my height very well, but if you're shorter or taller, it may impact how you hold the weapon, too. You want it straight without thinking, as a self-defense weapon.

JMO on all of this nonsense. The keys:

* Get something you will carry. If it's not comfortable for you, and you won't carry it sometime, try another weapon.
* Get something you like to shoot and practice with it. Don't assume that just because a caliber is bigger it will have monster recoil or something. A smaller weapon may have a "snappier" recoil, a "flip," or something that will make shooting not as pleasant, and possibly that double tap shot not nearly as accurate. Or the smaller caliber may fit perfectly for you.

But shoot it and see, if at all possible.

[CitizenBBN]

Great post D. Great point that the first thing is to get something you WILL carry. I'm still working with one of the girls at my office finding something, but women dress different and wont' put up with pockets full of stuff, etc. Much harder to figure out.

There's a reason all of these guns sell a lot, b/c there's no one right best answer. Gotta be the right gun for the person.

[suncat05]

Those are great points, Darrell.
I don't know if anyone here will remember something that I said about buying a handgun on this forum many years ago, but I stand by it, and you kind of echoed my thoughts with your above post. If you're going to buy a handgun, be sure to pick it up, hold it, and feel it in your hand. If it doesn't fit in your hand at that moment, it is not the right handgun for you.
It has to fit and feel natural in your hand, regardless of caliber. If it doesn't fit in your hand, it's not for you.
Caliber really isn't all that important. But shot placement is, especially in the "Oh No!" situation that I pray none of you ever finds yourself in!
The handgun must be comfortable in your hand. And ease of operation is the next most important factor, so if you buy it, practice with it. Train smart, practice good habits, know your gun and what you and it can do.
And follow the formula for success: 1)have a good grip on the weapon; 2)proper stance; 3)get a good sight picture; 4) proper breathing technique, which is breathe out as you squeeze the trigger; 5)squeeze the trigger, let the gun going off surprise you. DON'T slap or snap the trigger.

[suncat05]

Darrell, I checked out your holster video. Good choice, and Mr. Mika sounds like a wiley professional, and probably truly is with over 20 years with the LAPD. Thanks for the video.

[Darrell KSR]

Darrell, I checked out your holster video. Good choice, and Mr. Mika sounds like a wiley professional, and probably truly is with over 20 years with the LAPD. Thanks for the video.

He's a really good guy, Suncat. I had two conversations with him over a piddly little purchase I made. As I said, the first one was on New Year's Eve just to tell me he had my order, and the time frame he'd have for making it. The second one was his offer to replace something the post office lost (they found it later)--at his cost, not mine. Crazy good service. And the product is great. I hope anyone who needs a pocket holster will consider using him.

[suncat05]

The prices are certainly very good.

[Darrell KSR]

Great post D. Great point that the first thing is to get something you WILL carry. I'm still working with one of the girls at my office finding something, but women dress different and wont' put up with pockets full of stuff, etc. Much harder to figure out.

There's a reason all of these guns sell a lot, b/c there's no one right best answer. Gotta be the right gun for the person.

Women are difficult.

I started to say with this area, but really, do I need to add anything beyond those three words?

The revolver I carry is really meant for my oldest daughter. I have two of them, identical S&W 640's. (I misspoke earlier and said 642, which is what they sell now in the lightweight alloy. Both of mine are the heavy stainless steel, circa 1990, but both of mine are 38 special only--they made them around then where they could be chambered in 38 special and .357, which would have been cool, but I don't have those).

My F-I-L thought they would be idea for women's carry because they have an internal hammer, and won't snag (which makes it nice for pocket carry), thinking they could put it in a purse and carry. I'm not a huge fan of purse carry for a lot of reasons, and I bet you aren't either, but women provide a dilemma on how to outfit them with a carry weapon, for sure. Eventually I will give at least one of them to my middle daughter, who I know will carry, and the other--maybe--to my oldest daughter. If I give them both away, I'll probably pick up a 3rd for me. I like it as a rare weapon to carry to fit a peculiar niche, and really, everybody ought to have a revolver. It's as heavy as my Glock 36, though, almost to the ounce, and about a half-pound heavier than the alloy version. I like that.

Trivia: Off duty NYPD police officer entered the World Trade Center during the September 11 attacks, and he carried a Model 640 as his backup gun. It was recovered from the site after the attacks and donated by his family to the NRA National Firearms Museum in Fairfax, Virginia, which I bet would be a cool place to visit.

http://thinblueflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/image2.jpg

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Smith%20%26%20Wesson%20Model%20640&uid=1575

[Darrell KSR]

Man....Mark's Outdoors here in Birmingham has the Glock 17 on sale Friday (Gen 3, though) for $399.

I'm very tempted. I want the 19, though, and I am not going to get both.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Wasn't planning on this but my coworker sold me a 380 Ruger. Avoiding the paper work is always tempting to me.

[Darrell KSR]

Budd picked up a Smith and Wesson 642 revolver (similar to mine, but aluminum) for $269 after sale price and two separate $50 rebates.

[KeithKSR]

Budd picked up a Smith and Wesson 642 revolver (similar to mine, but aluminum) for $269 after sale price and two separate $50 rebates.

I've seen some really good firearms deals this weekend. A local independent gun shop had a Smith and Wesson SD40 for under $300 after discounts and S&W rebates. The local Rural King's gun barn was packed yesterday evening when I stopped by for chicken feed.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Does this count? I just bought these. I've been trying for 10 years to get the wife comfortable around guns. We had some Bass Pro gift cards and tried to get her a 22 pistol. She was actually thinking about it, but on the way in, she said I'd like to learn to shoot a bow. So we bought this youth recurve to play with (big enough for her). The Disney bow is for my 3 year old. Figured they could learn together. :)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171126/f73bc354fec120079ec9f23e9f2747bc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171126/d63f2ed2d0c400b4997ec38539cc96de.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[Darrell KSR]

Does this count? I just bought these. I've been trying for 10 years to get the wife comfortable around guns. We had some Bass Pro gift cards and tried to get her a 22 pistol. She was actually thinking about it, but on the way in, she said I'd like to learn to shoot a bow. So we bought this youth recurve to play with (big enough for her). The Disney bow is for my 3 year old. Figured they could learn together. :)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171126/f73bc354fec120079ec9f23e9f2747bc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171126/d63f2ed2d0c400b4997ec38539cc96de.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using TapatalkTell the truth. The second one is for you, right?

[KentuckyWildcat]

Tell the truth. The second one is for you, right?I'm sure I will shoot it :)

I kind of want a bow. Been looking at the Bear Cruzer. Just want something fun to shoot, not to hunt. Maybe this will allow that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[KeithKSR]

I'm sure I will shoot it :)

I kind of want a bow. Been looking at the Bear Cruzer. Just want something fun to shoot, not to hunt. Maybe this will allow that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

I've been wanting a crossbow, just to have to shoot at bales of hay.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I've been wanting a crossbow, just to have to shoot at bales of hay.

I've debated on both. If she actually shoots this bow, I'll probably join her so we can have a hobby together. Otherwise, I would lean toward a crossbow.

[Darrell KSR]

Hey, Suncat -- or anybody with a .38....

Buddy of mine just picked up a S&W 442 revolver, and he's trying to do his due diligence on what ammo to use. Do you (or anyone that carries a .38) have anything specific to offer?

I have Hornady critical defense hollow points in mine, but he's the type that likes to know the exact grain, whether it's hollow point or not (or some variation), etc. He said that he heard that hollow points may not be the best in this weapon due to the lack of velocity not giving it time to expand? I haven't heard that, but I confess to just picking up something reliable with a good reputation, and being happy with it.

He was thinking Speer Gold Dot as well, which I know is good. He was also asking about +P ammo.

Anything specific?

[KeithKSR]

Hey, Suncat -- or anybody with a .38....

Buddy of mine just picked up a S&W 442 revolver, and he's trying to do his due diligence on what ammo to use. Do you (or anyone that carries a .38) have anything specific to offer?

I have Hornady critical defense hollow points in mine, but he's the type that likes to know the exact grain, whether it's hollow point or not (or some variation), etc. He said that he heard that hollow points may not be the best in this weapon due to the lack of velocity not giving it time to expand? I haven't heard that, but I confess to just picking up something reliable with a good reputation, and being happy with it.

He was thinking Speer Gold Dot as well, which I know is good. He was also asking about +P ammo.

Anything specific?

I wouldn't use +P ammo in that .38 until I called S&W and asked them about using +P loads in it. If it is for self defense I'd use regular .38 spl hollow point loads, but that's me. If I wanted a hotter load I'd go with a .357 Magnum.

[suncat05]

Hey, Suncat -- or anybody with a .38....

Buddy of mine just picked up a S&W 442 revolver, and he's trying to do his due diligence on what ammo to use. Do you (or anyone that carries a .38) have anything specific to offer?

I have Hornady critical defense hollow points in mine, but he's the type that likes to know the exact grain, whether it's hollow point or not (or some variation), etc. He said that he heard that hollow points may not be the best in this weapon due to the lack of velocity not giving it time to expand? I haven't heard that, but I confess to just picking up something reliable with a good reputation, and being happy with it.

He was thinking Speer Gold Dot as well, which I know is good. He was also asking about +P ammo.

Anything specific?

I keep Hornady Critical Defense in my S&W .38 special, and I have Hornady Critical Defense 9mm Lite in my daughter's LC9.
If I didn't use the Hornady loads, my next choice would be Speed Gold Dot. Either is an excellent choice.
As far as using +P ammo, if the gun is engineered to withstand the higher pressures, then I see nothing wrong with it. And if the individual doing the shooting doesn't mind the extra recoil.
But I would definitely check with whoever manufactures the handgun to see if it is rated for +P ammo.

[Darrell KSR]

The Smith & Wesson 442 is rated for continuous +P use, so it's just a question of whether it's better for him to use or not. Thanks for the notes and comments, guys--I'm passing them along to him.

[suncat05]

I have been seriously looking at a Century Arms RAS-47, which is an American made version of the AK-47. Been checking some reviews, and it gets decent ratings overall, although there are some negative reviews too.
Both Sportsman's Guide & Rural King have them on sale for very, very good prices right now during the holidays.
I am also considering going to the gun show in Ft. Myers at the Civic Center today too.
Lots of good holiday sales going on right now.

[Catonahottinroof]

I'm going to add a Remington 1911 R1 to my collection. I don't have one, always wanted one and it's Christmas time for me :)

[KeithKSR]

I have been seriously looking at a Century Arms RAS-47, which is an American made version of the AK-47. Been checking some reviews, and it gets decent ratings overall, although there are some negative reviews too.
Both Sportsman's Guide & Rural King have them on sale for very, very good prices right now during the holidays.
I am also considering going to the gun show in Ft. Myers at the Civic Center today too.
Lots of good holiday sales going on right now.

Now is a good time to buy semi-automatic sporting rifles. I saw a new AR-15 priced at $399 at the area gunshow last weekend. Unlike the cheaper DPMS rifles this one had the forward assist and the dust cover. They had an AR in 7.62x39 for $499, love to add that one to my closet. The 7.62x39 has more knockdown power than the 5.56 round.

[suncat05]

Well folks, I went to the gun show over in Ft. Myers yesterday, and aside from some good prices on some Ruger AR-15's, I was extremely disappointed in the prices I saw.
I saw a Norinco AK-47 priced at almost $1100. I saw another AK-47 priced at over $1400, and I didn't even bother to pick it up to see who made it.
I had intentions of buying a Ruger LC9s for my beautiful bride, but they were priced almost $80 more than the last time I looked at them.
Is there something going on that I am not aware of? Now, I understand that gun show prices are going to be a little higher than shop prices, but I was kind of taken aback by the much higher sales prices. AND.......many times you can negotiate a better price, but not yesterday in Ft. Myers.
I think I may not go to many more fun shows if this is a new trend.

[suncat05]

I'm going to add a Remington 1911 R1 to my collection. I don't have one, always wanted one and it's Christmas time for me :)

I have not actually seen one that I can recall, but almost all of the reviews I have read about them were favorable.

[KeithKSR]

Well folks, I went to the gun show over in Ft. Myers yesterday, and aside from some good prices on some Ruger AR-15's, I was extremely disappointed in the prices I saw.
I saw a Norinco AK-47 priced at almost $1100. I saw another AK-47 priced at over $1400, and I didn't even bother to pick it up to see who made it.
I had intentions of buying a Ruger LC9s for my beautiful bride, but they were priced almost $80 more than the last time I looked at them.
Is there something going on that I am not aware of? Now, I understand that gun show prices are going to be a little higher than shop prices, but I was kind of taken aback by the much higher sales prices. AND.......many times you can negotiate a better price, but not yesterday in Ft. Myers.
I think I may not go to many more fun shows if this is a new trend.

ARs are much better deals than AKs anymore, lots of imports have been shutdown.

The LC9 is pretty popular right now, people like the compact size. Guns shows typically price at the high end. I always say a gun show gives you a good idea how much not to pay for a new firearm, but there are always exceptions.

Here is a good place to get the LC9. The charge a flat $10 to ship to one of their local Rural King store if the local store doesn't have one in stock: https://www.rkguns.com/ruger-lc9-9mm-subcompact-pistol-3235.html

[suncat05]

Thanks, Keith. That is a decent price on that LC9. And you're right, gun shows are a good place to find out what not to end up paying for a firearm.

[suncat05]

My brand new, in the box, American-made Century Arms RAS-47 came in on Saturday. All I can say is.........SWEET!
Been looking at ammo prices for it, thinking I'm gonna bust a move and feed it now. 1000 rounds of Wolf is only a bit over $220, so I think I may go with that.
Does anybody here have one of these rifles, and if so, what can you tell me about them outside of being American-made?

[KeithKSR]

American Rifleman ran a nice review of the RAS47 when they first came out: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/2/2/review-century-arms-ras47-ak-rifle/

Here is a good link I found for ammo pricing: https://www.wikiarms.com/group/7.62x39

[bigsky]

Eventually bought a very lightly used Kimber .38 -- .357 revolver, hammerless. Did not get it for my (soon to be ex) wife. Got it as a carry for snakes when fishing or hiking. .38 snake loads and a couple of .38s makes a nice little "I'm out camping and sufficiently armed" pocket pistol.

[suncat05]

Eventually bought a very lightly used Kimber .38 -- .357 revolver, hammerless. Did not get it for my (soon to be ex) wife. Got it as a carry for snakes when fishing or hiking. .38 snake loads and a couple of .38s makes a nice little "I'm out camping and sufficiently armed" pocket pistol.

I shot a water moccasin last night. My wife had just come home from church and darn near stepped on it. My son came running in to tell me, so I grabbed my snake gun and dispatched it. It wasn't even a foot long, so I know it was a juvenile and probably still not able to regulate its venom yet. If that thing had gotten my wife she'd have ended up in the hospital and been really, really sick. If it had gotten any of my dogs they would have been dead inside of 10 minutes.
I don't play with any of those pit vipers.

[suncat05]

American Rifleman ran a nice review of the RAS47 when they first came out: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/2/2/review-century-arms-ras47-ak-rifle/

Here is a good link I found for ammo pricing: https://www.wikiarms.com/group/7.62x39

Thank you, KeithKSR! I appreciate ya!

[bigsky]

I shot a water moccasin last night. My wife had just come home from church and darn near stepped on it. My son came running in to tell me, so I grabbed my snake gun and dispatched it. It wasn't even a foot long, so I know it was a juvenile and probably still not able to regulate its venom yet. If that thing had gotten my wife she'd have ended up in the hospital and been really, really sick. If it had gotten any of my dogs they would have been dead inside of 10 minutes.
I don't play with any of those pit vipers.

Sat in a chair this summer, out on the Madison river, under a big juniper tree. Kept thinking, as I dozed in the morning sun, "sheesh, the bugs are really buzzy here". The gals got up to make breakfast and I moved over to one of the other lawn chairs as the one I was sitting on was one of those really low to the ground ones.

My little dog ran right over to where I had been sitting and then jumped straight up and back in a wild Jack Russell style move, and I saw why. Two feet from the armrest of the chair I just was sitting in was a coiled, angry, buzzing rust colored rattlesnake.

So I didnt have a pistol with me but one of the ladies had a nine shot .22 saturday night special with no snake loads. We didnt have an oar or a spade--just a little folding shovel. I could not get close enough with the shovel and my one illegal shot in the campground missed. (yeah, I missed). All the floated in rafts and tubes going by a few feet away argued against emptying the cylinder, as low as my confidence was in that pistol. I then tried to whack the snake with a tire iron. Chased it into the river and under the tree. The camp host came over and said, "oh yeah there's a den of rattlesnakes under that juniper. But we can't have you shooting in the campground.

He Did loan me a spade. But I drove into shedhorn sports in Ennis and got some snake loads for that .22. Then went out and got me this little Kimber. We had three dogs and a four year old boy all over that river bank. Won't get fooled again.

[CitizenBBN]

For snakeshot I prefer a .38 or more, just to get the job fully done. I have 22 snakeshot around, but I trust the .38 loads more.

Not that it comes up for me. The only snakes I run into in my day to day world I'm not allowed to shoot at all or the police show up.

[suncat05]

I have the CC I Speer .38 special snake shot in my snake gun. As CBBN stated above, they are very lethal.

[suncat05]

Goodness, bigsky! It sounds like all of you were that close to that snake, but thankfully none of you were bitten. Wow! Kinda like Momma practically stepping on that moccasin.

[bigsky]

Kimber has three chambers of that exact round. Have no idea why I wasnt bitten. Dog and 4yr old too.

[CitizenBBN]

I have the CC I Speer .38 special snake shot in my snake gun. As CBBN stated above, they are very lethal.

What I have as well. Don't carry it but have it in stock.

Sold some .44 Spl snake shot that I sold too. the 38 works, no idea what a 44 would do.

[Darrell KSR]

Not a gun, but ordered an IWB "sticky holster" yesterday for my compact 45. Intrigued by the thought of no loops or clips and still having it held in place. They claim you can even jog with it.

I wanted something that I could leave in the car in case I wanted to change from pocket carry to IWB during the day, and for traveling in the car. They even make a mountable version you could stick under the steering column or side or under your console, etc. but that wasn't what I was thinking.

Price is really good at 29.99, and if you are like me and don't mind a cosmetic blemish, can get one for $15 if they have your size in Stock in the clearance section.

The biggest downside is that if you unholster your weapon, you will have to reholster by removing the holster from your waist first, reholster, then place back in your waist.

Good review here on this world's most comfortable IWB holster.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/10/daniel-zimmerman/gear-review-sticky-holsters/

Their website:

https://stickyholsters.com/

I may get another for my 38...

[KeithKSR]

What I have as well. Don't carry it but have it in stock.

Sold some .44 Spl snake shot that I sold too. the 38 works, no idea what a 44 would do.

#6 12 gauge buckshot will make their heads evaporate.

[suncat05]

#6 12 gauge buckshot will make their heads evaporate.

😉

[CitizenBBN]

#6 12 gauge buckshot will make their heads evaporate.

I'm betting the 44 is closer to a 410 than it is to anything else.

[KeithKSR]

I'm betting the 44 is closer to a 410 than it is to anything else.

Yep, .410 to .44. The 12 gauge sure makes an impact, and is much more common than the .44.

[DanISSELisdaman]

I would love to have that .45 Gold Cup with the .22 and .45 barrels back. I was stupid to trade it!!! Best shooting handgun I ever owned!