BIll Clinton's take on Appalachia

[CitizenBBN]

http://nation.foxnews.com/2016/09/09/bill-clinton-mocks-coal-people-west-virginia-kentucky

“We all know how [Hillary’s] opponent has done well down in West Virginia and eastern Kentucky,” the former president told the crowd at the Greater Pittsburgh Coliseum. “The coal people don’t like any of us [Democrats] anymore.”
“They all voted for me. I won twice, and they did well.”
“They blame the president when the sun doesn’t come up in the morning now.”


Well yeah Bill, when you vow to end the entire economic base of an area, there's a good chance many of them may not support you.

And given the absolute war the Democrats have waged on energy in this country yes, there's a good chance you are to blame for much of the suffering in the area, at least the increase in suffering from what it was 10 years ago. It's never been an easy place to get by, but you've made it completely impossible.

Your solution is to basically put the entire mountain chain on permanent welfare, which is pretty much your plan for everyone else too, so in that sense you're being fair, but what you don't have is any proposals on how to deal with the MASSIVE welfare/disability fraud that has made a joke of the region, the sweeping drug problems that come with that first part, and the fact that government has expanded to such a degree that there is almost no way to build the region through the traditional American approach of small business growth and broad development.

it's very typical of the Clintons and the Leftist elite in general though. come in, tell you how to live, at the point of a gun if necessary, and then act indignant that they don't get thanked for doing it.

[dan_bgblue]

I missed the news about the sun not coming up

[PedroDaGr8]

Truthfully, NO party has had a coherent plan about Applachia. Coal is dead, the left is speeding up its demise but coal is functionally dead. When even China is working to abandon coal, you know it is the energy equivalent of a buggy whip manufacturer.

The left's plan goes towards what they view as necessary, which is more government programs. We all know how well that will work in that region. A region as fiercely independent as it is, does not do well being taken care of by the government. They need jobs and a goal in life. The drugs are a symptom of a people that are lost and without meaning. There is nothing better in their life so why not do drugs. At least they feel good for a little bit.

The right's plan is *crickets* *mubble* free-markets*mubble*. The problem is, there is freaking NOTHING there to free market. The landscape is beautiful, the people are great but you can't really sell any of that and coal is a dying energy source. The geography is such that is makes semi-trucks difficult to go through that area. Factories don't want to move there partially because of anti-american worker-ism, partially becausee of the aforementioned logistical issues and partially because the area just doesn't have enough people with marketable skills.


Quite simply, Appalachia is a horribly tough nut to crack. What do you do in a region with one dying good, nothing else marketable and people who live in a level of poverty that people don't even realize EXISTS in the United States. This is third world level poverty HERE in the USA.

[CitizenBBN]

China is moving away from coal mostly b/c they simply have too many power plants, period, of any kind. with the economic slowdown there they are over capacity and have huge numbers of plants still being built, so the recent scale back is more about the fact that they just don't need plants, not as much that they are going away from coal in any big way.

But it is less popular there b/c of the massive pollution problems. The west makes that out as them being concerned about warming, but it's about keeping the population from being too uppity over having to wear masks outdoors 24/7.

So I agree that coal is dying, but Obama and the Left tried to shoot it in the head rather than let it help support the region during a decades long transition.

left to its own devices and the free market (or even the crony capitalism in which we now live), coal would still provide a lot of jobs and money to the area for many more years, both through domestic consumption and exports. In fact we could encourage exports and that would really help, but Obama et al is trying to stop that b/c of course coal burned anywhere is evil to them.

As for the plan for the area, yes it's tough. Had coal not been cut off utterly at the knees it would make it easier b/c there would be something to help while things went forward, now there's nothing but welfare and drugs and fake disability claims.

In part the population will end up declining, and that's OK. The region can't support millions of people any more than areas of the Rockies can support massive populations.

That being said we can see that things there do help, and in Appalachia we probably need to look at more tourism/resort options where possible rather than hard manufacturing. But we also need the economic incentives to locate work in or at least near the region.

I grew up an hour outside of Louisville and LOTS of my neighbors worked at the Ford plant etc. there in the city. A plant located somewehre like Morehead could support the area all the way to West Virginia and into Pikeville. So it doesn't have to be a plant up in the middle of nowhere with no interstate.

But that means tax incentives to locate there, and reduced regs and such versus just packing up and going to Mexico. Surely to Goodness the lack of skills in Appalachia isn't any worse than in Mexico, and companies flock there.

But then again in those countries they don't have to spend millions in overhead in regulations and compliance and such. But that's not just about Appalachia, that's about making the US a competitive market for business again, and that would help that area as well as the rest of the planet.

The problem now is that even I would be afraid to open there b/c of the serious drug issues. That's why it needs to start with smaller guys who could use local and state tax incentives to their advantage and are supporting a regional sales area. That also has the benefit of being more diverse.

[dan_bgblue]

I read yesterday that climatologists are predicting the drought in California may last for decades. I recommend that all the refugees be located in Appalachia.

[HerbTarlek]

Truthfully, NO party has had a coherent plan about Applachia. Coal is dead, the left is speeding up its demise but coal is functionally dead. When even China is working to abandon coal, you know it is the energy equivalent of a buggy whip manufacturer.

The left's plan goes towards what they view as necessary, which is more government programs. We all know how well that will work in that region. A region as fiercely independent as it is, does not do well being taken care of by the government. They need jobs and a goal in life. The drugs are a symptom of a people that are lost and without meaning. There is nothing better in their life so why not do drugs. At least they feel good for a little bit.

The right's plan is *crickets* *mubble* free-markets*mubble*. The problem is, there is freaking NOTHING there to free market. The landscape is beautiful, the people are great but you can't really sell any of that and coal is a dying energy source. The geography is such that is makes semi-trucks difficult to go through that area. Factories don't want to move there partially because of anti-american worker-ism, partially becausee of the aforementioned logistical issues and partially because the area just doesn't have enough people with marketable skills.


Quite simply, Appalachia is a horribly tough nut to crack. What do you do in a region with one dying good, nothing else marketable and people who live in a level of poverty that people don't even realize EXISTS in the United States. This is third world level poverty HERE in the USA.

Couldn't be farther from the the truth. Those scots-Irish Ne'er do wells will do anything to,get social security. For the most part, they will do anything to avoid working. They are, as a group, the laziest bunch of geniuses I've ever seen.

I operate a moderately sized nat-gas e&p company based out of Ashland. Most of our wells are in Mingo county. I can't tell you the shenanigans they pull to avoid having their royalty payments affect their disability, but they'll ride a 4 wheeler to Charleston and back, despite having a pill subscription for a bad back. Same guy, I had to send his check to his mother, in his mother's name, a woman whom is convalescing and is brain dead, because any "substantial" additional income would affect his social security.

Last week, I had a guy from Mingo county, who now lives in Denver, a stoned and recreational marijuana user, call me to try to engineer a way so that I could cook my books and incriminate myself so that he could figure out a way to get disability-social security.

No offense, Pedro, but if you've ever been there, it's been a damn long while. Drive down the Hal Rodgers or down US 23. You'll see billboards for attorneys that advertise that they'll sue anyone for disability. Those people may have been worth something at sometime, but it's been a few decades.

I don't mean to paint with too broad a brush, but here it is. It's my experience. And as far as I know, it's true.

And that's what the democrats want. An electorate of dependents. People who have no choice but to vote for the state's party.

Really, Pedro,,anybody with any inkling of pride, ambition, or ability has left. Your characterization of the noble, proud Appalachian laborer is dated by about two decades, at least.

[dan_bgblue]

Herb, my SIL is from London, KY. Fortunately he was raised well by a family that all had jobs and never thought about taking handouts. He is now well educated, has a good job, and we are blessed to have him in the family. If you and he were to sit down and compare notes, there would be little disagreement in his views and your view of much of eastern KY and it's citizens. BTW he left as soon as he got out of high school as he knew if he stayed nothing good would come of it.

I hope no one takes offense at me painting with a broad brush, as I know there are plenty of mountain folk that still work hard, raise families, go to church and succeed without the need for welfare from Washington. However there is a very large percentage of the inhabitants that are just like Herb describes.

[PedroDaGr8]

I'll be honest Herb and Dan, my opinion of them is HEAVILY influenced by the rural students that I taught in grad school. They ones from the hollers were BY FAR my hardest working students. Many of them were substantially behind at the beginning of the classes compared to their peers but most worked their ass off to catch up and ended up in the top 25% of my students. That being said, by definition these were students who are in undergrad. These are the ones that "got out" and will do anything to not go back. So there might be a very strong sampling bias at play here.

[badrose]

I grew up in Flatwoods, KY in the Tri-State area of Huntington, Ashland, and Ironton where there used to be lots of work. ARMCO Steel, C&O Railroad, Ashland Oil (both refineries and home offices), Calgon, and several more blue collar industries along with the requisite retailers, etc. The biggest employers there now are the hospitals. Lawyers and educators do well and one of my best friends has his fingers in a lot of pies that add up nicely. That area was ALIVE once and it's depressing to see its current state.

[dan_bgblue]

These are the ones that "got out" and will do anything to not go back. So there might be a very strong sampling bias at play here.

I think those thoughts have merit

[CitizenBBN]

it's pretty simple. The brand of help brought by Leftists steals your very soul.

It rewards sloth and deceit and takes away self respect and pride. It's one of the most awful things you can do to a person, to convince them they are no better than a hedonistic shell. You see it among the very rich and now the government dependent.

It's taken many decades but that's what generations of federal programs have done to Appalachia. A poor but proud, industrious, and even ingenious people are now disability dependent drug addicts (not all but a sadly large percentage).

Having a helping hand is a good thing, but the welfare state as devised by a leftist elite driven by shallow guilt and a deep need for power and control is more than bad economic policy, it's a sin against their fellow Americans.

[badrose]

^^^^You said it perfectly^^^^

[Doc]

Couldn't be farther from the the truth. Those scots-Irish Ne'er do wells will do anything to,get social security. For the most part, they will do anything to avoid working. They are, as a group, the laziest bunch of geniuses I've ever seen.

I operate a moderately sized nat-gas e&p company based out of Ashland. Most of our wells are in Mingo county. I can't tell you the shenanigans they pull to avoid having their royalty payments affect their disability, but they'll ride a 4 wheeler to Charleston and back, despite having a pill subscription for a bad back. Same guy, I had to send his check to his mother, in his mother's name, a woman whom is convalescing and is brain dead, because any "substantial" additional income would affect his social security.

Last week, I had a guy from Mingo county, who now lives in Denver, a stoned and recreational marijuana user, call me to try to engineer a way so that I could cook my books and incriminate myself so that he could figure out a way to get disability-social security.

No offense, Pedro, but if you've ever been there, it's been a damn long while. Drive down the Hal Rodgers or down US 23. You'll see billboards for attorneys that advertise that they'll sue anyone for disability. Those people may have been worth something at sometime, but it's been a few decades.

I don't mean to paint with too broad a brush, but here it is. It's my experience. And as far as I know, it's true.

And that's what the democrats want. An electorate of dependents. People who have no choice but to vote for the state's party.

Really, Pedro,,anybody with any inkling of pride, ambition, or ability has left. Your characterization of the noble, proud Appalachian laborer is dated by about two decades, at least.

Hate to tell you Herb but that attitude isn't unique to "coal country". You find cheats and crooks of the system in all parts of the nation because when you reward people for not working, then why work? Its doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out. However most people aren't parasites. Most want to earn their keep and make a living on their own. Unfortunately the governments system of "helping the needy" only fosters more needy, which fuels the system of the gov't needing more and more revenue to support those on the dole. Needing more money means taking more money from those who do work so those who do work get less for what they produce thereby devaluing the working mans (or womans) effort. Why work and pay to the support the system when you can not work and just take from the system?

[Doc]

it's pretty simple. The brand of help brought by Leftists steals your very soul.

It rewards sloth and deceit and takes away self respect and pride. It's one of the most awful things you can do to a person, to convince them they are no better than a hedonistic shell. You see it among the very rich and now the government dependent.

It's taken many decades but that's what generations of federal programs have done to Appalachia. A poor but proud, industrious, and even ingenious people are now disability dependent drug addicts (not all but a sadly large percentage).

Having a helping hand is a good thing, but the welfare state as devised by a leftist elite driven by shallow guilt and a deep need for power and control is more than bad economic policy, it's a sin against their fellow Americans.

Or I could have read the entire thread, including this post, and saved myself the time it took to type my initial reply.

[BigBluePappy]

Grammy is from London.
Note, I said FROM London.
She only has very little family left there; decent hard-working folk...

As Herb and Dan attest, many, and I repeat MANY, are on the dole...

[KeithKSR]

I read yesterday that climatologists are predicting the drought in California may last for decades. I recommend that all the refugees be located in Appalachia.

No way we are taking Comradfornians, my good friend.

Drought in California? Why on earth would you call the lack of rain in a dry arid climate a drought?

[KSRBEvans]

I had a long post typed out. But I'll just commend to everyone the book "Hillbilly Elegy" (https://smile.amazon.com/Hillbilly-Elegy-Memoir-Family-Culture/dp/0062300547/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1474287441&sr=1-1&keywords=hillbilly+elegy) by J.D. Vance. It's an amazing book that I'm sure many of us will recognize as parts of our own family histories. The best book I've read in some time, and he makes the point that the economic/political part of it is one part, but arguably not the biggest part of why hillbillies (including transplanted ones) are in crisis.

[KeithKSR]

Things are what you make of them. I see lots of kids who break the ties of rural Appalachian poverty, primarily because they desire to break those ties. Others do not aspire to escape the bonds of poverty, as it is easier to rely on the government. The biggest problem I see is that it is too easy to rely on the government.

[ukblue]

I grew up in the east Kentucky coalfields in the 50's. My father got 1-2 days a week of work and that was only because the navy taught him to be a electrician. Without the commodities the government gave out we would of starved. Obama took away the way a lot of miners earned enough money to send their children to a college and their way out of poverty. He effectively killed a economy and a way for a better life for a lot of people. Eastern Kentucky is a very different place now and unless you are in the medical profession things are very different and a lot of people have left to find jobs. There is a lot of room for refugees as Dan has suggested.

[dan_bgblue]

ukblue, I wish to let you know, if you already did not, that my comment about the commiefornians was totally in jest. I truly have a deep respect for the mountain folk and would not want that to happen to those that remain.

Having said that, do you see any opportunities that could change what has happened? It has taken well over 100 years to muck up the lives in the mountains and nothing that anyone can do would make quick changes going forward. What would be a reasonable 50 year plan to revive the economy there? Even when the coal business was booming there were a lot more have nots than those who could make a decent living so any plan has to be from outside the box. I am not sure there is one, but did want to see if you had any thoughts.

[ukblue]

No roads to speak of Dan and no money to speak of unless it's associated with the medical profession. The mountains has people with a lot of problems. Drugs have infected almost every family that I know. Poor education so the higher paying jobs are not available. A large portion of younger people are on ssi and have never worked. I don't care what some expert writes in a book. I have lived here for 65 years and know the problems that people have. Now Obama has made it a lot harder for kids to get a better education to have a better life and get out of the hills.

[jazyd]

WhAt blue is not telling you is how much business he has lost because of Obams, how many coal mines have been shut down including blues, how many miners are out of good paying jobs with insurance because of Obama

A high school classmate is in the insurance business in Lexington and insures a coal mine. The stories she tells me of drug abuse at that mine is mind boggling.

[CitizenBBN]

Life in Appalachia has been very hard for a long time. I'm all for the idea of the the help that has in fact, as ukblue said, made a difference in life and death for many in the region.

The problem is that the government is good at giving out fish, but not building lakes or helping people get to fishing. Some do it on their own, but many more do not, and while that is not a good situation it doesn't hold a candle to the way things have turned in the last 20-30 years. Now we simply pay people for life to do nothing and destroy them with that funnel of unrewarding living and drug abuse. The twin attacks of making people feel useless and the drug availability that lets them escape from that feeling is a vicious cycle that has ravaged the region.

Now with Obama and the war on coal they've cut one of the few lifelines that was still available. Coal work is still awfully tough, but at least it was work and could give a person a chance and self respect. Now even that is being destroyed.

I hate what has happened to the region. It's such a big part of who we are as Kentuckians, we really need to find some ways to make it right.

[MickintheHam]

Life in Appalachia was hard before Lyndon. Since then you have had Carter, the Clampetts and Obama screw it up more. Reagan and the Bushes basically ignored the area. Not sure what's worse, the neglect or the people who screw it up. In over 50 years someone should have a positive solution.