GOP convention==anybody watching? If so, what do you think?

[Doc]

I'm not a big watcher of these things because they are pretty predictable rah rah crap but this one is "different" due to the factions fighting.

Was very impressed with Christie's speech but then I like him quite a bit anyway. Was not sold on Ben Carson's although he was SPOT ON concerning the political correctness issue. I don't make a big deal about "Lucifer" and think that was not a good way to go. Makes him look like a religious zealot. I misses Milana's speech but find it funny that supposedly she ripped it off of Michelle Obama, because nobody would notice. I wonder if they will accuse Hilary of ripping off a speech if she mentions anything that was in any GOP speech, because 2 lines = plagiarism. Of course if anybody has a question about plagiarism, one should ask the current VP as he is pretty much up to date on that.
I'm also impressed with the Trump family. The kids seem way more stable than dad, but then I'm not sure Charles Manson isn't more stable than dad. And of course you have "the agitators" aka CODE PINK, doing their demonstrations. I'll bet you don't see opposition antics at the democratic convention, or at least I hope not. To me that's just low class

[suncat05]

I have not watched any of it. Quite frankly, I am really, really irritated with the entire Republican "establishment" types like McConnell and Ryan and Boehner and their ilk.
And I am still not 100% sure that Donald Trump is the right answer against the old hag, but at this point what other viable alternative is there? There isn't one. Period. So I guess I'm going to roll with the Donald.
But actually watching this crap? All these conventions are is a platform for the theater of the absurd.
I've already pretty much made up my mind, as I believe most here have as well.

[Catonahottinroof]

I'm not a big fan of either candidate, but this election comes down to establishment vs non-establishment. Candidates that are corporately bought and not bought.

[KSRBEvans]

I actively dislike both candidates, will probably not vote for President for the 1st time since I registered to vote, and will probably move my registration from Republican to unaffiliated. So I'm looking at this convention from a distance, mainly through Twitter, as an item of extreme curiosity. It's interesting to see what it looks like when a major party dies.

[Darrell KSR]

I don't like either candidate, will probably not vote for President for the 1st time since I registered to vote, and will probably move my registration from Republican to unaffiliated. So I'm looking at this convention from a distance, mainly through Twitter, as an item of extreme curiosity. It's interesting to see what it looks like when a major party dies.
I will vote in the election, but I refuse to vote for either major candidate. I have not decided what that means or whether I will simply abstain. I get what you are saying about moving your political affiliation, but I am not quite there yet.

I have voted for a president in every election since 1980. It is really a shame to see that end, but I refused to do something just to continue a streak. Some may consider it stupid, but I simply cannot support either candidate at all.

[KeithKSR]

Overall the convention has been pretty good so far. Reminds me a bit of the 1980 convention where GHW the establishment had to come to grips with Reagan being the nominee.

Thusfar, I have been most impressed with the Trump family.

I thought Christy and Guliani both hit it out of the park.

I think the plagiarism charges are funny. Michelle plagiarized Alinski in that speak she gave in '08, BO plagiarized his "Words" speech, and Doc has already pointed out the Biden speech.

[jazyd]

I have watched both nights and I do not accept not voting. We have two choices, period. Any not vote is a vote for Hillary or Trump either way.

Hillary, how any gun owner says they are not voting or not voting for the two choices is beyond me. She will do all she can to take away any and all gun rights, the 2nd Amendment is up for grabs and she more than likely will have the opportunity to appoint one or more Supreme Court Justices and that will end the 2nd amendment. So any of you who vote other than Trump, dont' come here and say you are a gun owner because I call BS.
Want your health insurance up more, don't vote or vote for Hillary
Want national debt up even more, same thing
Want more dead police officers, same thing
Want terrorists here amongst us as she allows tens of thousands of 'refugees' in knowing that ISIS has said they will infiltrate the process and even if 2% get in, that could mean 2000 terrorists within our borders. And that is a minimum
Want the middle east even more unsettled, vote Hillary or not Trump,
Want Israel attacked, vote Hillary or not Trump
Want a possible nuclear war, vote Hillary or not trump
Want N Korea to get even more bold, Hillary or not Trump
Want China to take over the seas in their region, Hillary is your gal.

Trump may not be my ideal candidate, but he is better by far than Hillary and better than any write in, or a no vote. He beat all the GOP candidates fair and square. He won at their game.

I have not looked at Trump just based on what the media says or wants to show. I have researched him and listened to those that have had sit down meetings with him, those that I trust. And I often read the same response, that he is a great listener, he absorbs information, asks great question, wants to learn. His gruffness, heck lots of New Yorkers are like that so I throw that off. He may fool me, but Hillary won't, I know what she is, a proven liar, someone who should be in jail, a proven crook, a women who allows her husband to grope women w/o shame and someone who people on the know in Ark way back when told me is not above having someone eliminated.

Two words...Supreme Court

[badrose]

I agree, jazy. No way he's as bad as her. He'll get my vote.

[CitizenBBN]

I'm voting for Trump, despite the fact that I think he's personally the most ill behaved candidate maybe in US history, and has the emotional development of a 6th grader.

And IMO, I can make an air-tight case for why to do it and feel good about it:

We can all agree both choices are poor. Hillary is a felon and corrupt and policy wise has been a disaster in foreign affairs and is intent on being just as leftist in economic policy as Obama if not moreso. Trump may not have a cogent policy at all and is as I said about as intellectual as a whoopie cushion.

But our system of checks and balances means that neither will be able to stray too far in just 4 years or even 8 years. Trump with a GOP Congress might actually get some good things done, and the GOP won't end up passing anything really stupid, but if Hillary gets in and the Dems get the Congress during her period they very well could do some very bad things, and will have no problems doing it.

So there are very serious economic risks with Hillary, not really that much with Trump.

In foreign policy it's basically a wash. Trump will be erratic and that may be good and may be bad, but Hillary is a proven bad quantity on that front.

But here's the key to the decision (and it's based around Jazy's point):

No matter which one wins, their tenure will be up in 4 or 8 years and not a whole lot of change will happen with either, but their picks to the SCOTUS will last for decades and can fundamentally shift the debate in either direction. If Trump wins we will get basically conservative picks, if Hillary wins the 2nd Amendment will be destroyed and we will get 20+ years of an interventionist court that believes the Constitution is outdated and written on an Etch-a-sketch.

Either one of their terms will be painful in many ways, but with only ONE pick will the lasting negatives be minimized.

So I have to agree with Jazy, the Supreme Court picks are simply too important to not vote, and the downsize of a Trump Presidency is pretty much a wash with a Hillary one, but the SCOTUS could be saved There's simply no way to do the math where Trump isn't the better outcome. I may shake my head at the sad state of the American electorate, but I'll feel good about the binary choice.

PS - I get feeling like NEITHER is worthy of the office and thus not voting for one, but since the office will be held by one or the other, you have to make the "gun to your head" choice. Not voting is a vote for Hillary, and I can't do that. I'm going to be embarrassed for our nation and the Founders no matter who wins this election, I might as well be embarrassed but reassured the Court isn't going to strip away our rights.

[TRUCKERCATFAN]

I have watched both nights and I do not accept not voting. We have two choices, period. Any not vote is a vote for Hillary or Trump either way.

Hillary, how any gun owner says they are not voting or not voting for the two choices is beyond me. She will do all she can to take away any and all gun rights, the 2nd Amendment is up for grabs and she more than likely will have the opportunity to appoint one or more Supreme Court Justices and that will end the 2nd amendment. So any of you who vote other than Trump, dont' come here and say you are a gun owner because I call BS.
Want your health insurance up more, don't vote or vote for Hillary
Want national debt up even more, same thing
Want more dead police officers, same thing
Want terrorists here amongst us as she allows tens of thousands of 'refugees' in knowing that ISIS has said they will infiltrate the process and even if 2% get in, that could mean 2000 terrorists within our borders. And that is a minimum
Want the middle east even more unsettled, vote Hillary or not Trump,
Want Israel attacked, vote Hillary or not Trump
Want a possible nuclear war, vote Hillary or not trump
Want N Korea to get even more bold, Hillary or not Trump
Want China to take over the seas in their region, Hillary is your gal.

Trump may not be my ideal candidate, but he is better by far than Hillary and better than any write in, or a no vote. He beat all the GOP candidates fair and square. He won at their game.

I have not looked at Trump just based on what the media says or wants to show. I have researched him and listened to those that have had sit down meetings with him, those that I trust. And I often read the same response, that he is a great listener, he absorbs information, asks great question, wants to learn. His gruffness, heck lots of New Yorkers are like that so I throw that off. He may fool me, but Hillary won't, I know what she is, a proven liar, someone who should be in jail, a proven crook, a women who allows her husband to grope women w/o shame and someone who people on the know in Ark way back when told me is not above having someone eliminated.

Two words...Supreme Court

Great post! I couldn't agree more.

[CitizenBBN]

I now have a new, and even better reason to vote for Trump, and I'm actually now rooting for the man actively despite knowing what we are getting:

So he can stick it in the snotty, out of touch ear of the GOP elites who refuse to rally around their legally nominated candidate.

I get they don't like him, but Cruz and Kasich both signed a pledge to support the winner, and they pulled that stunt to try to stick Trump to undermine a possible 3rd party bid, and then he won and now they won't live up to their word.

I have lost all respect for them over that. I get having differences, but it's unacceptable to break ranks like they are doing and help hand the election to someone who is even worse based on their own ideologies.

Trump is many things, but one thing he is is a huge pain in the backside of the political establishment of this country. I'm starting to really warm up to that being enough to want to see him in charge. The mess that would make of their cozy little machine where both parties actively participate is worth it all on its own.

[Darrell KSR]

Sorry, guys. Sometimes there's a time when a man refuses to compromise his principles. This is that time. I will never let it be said that I voted for Donald Trump as the lesser of evils.

[CitizenBBN]

Sorry, guys. Sometimes there's a time when a man refuses to compromise his principles. This is that time. I will never let it be said that I voted for Donald Trump as the lesser of evils.

I get it. Neither is fit to hold office IMO. Any office. I just gave up the connection between principles and voting after Reagan.

I respect those who feel that way. I just figure the court is too important for my feelings to get in the way.

It also really helps that I'm an absurdist and I see Trump as being likely to provide far more many such moments. Hillary won't be nearly as absurd in her behavior, she'll just steal us blind. Neither is good but the former is far more entertaining at least. :)

Of course this is all academic for most of us. Trump should win most of our respective states, though I understand Mississippi may be more vulnerable than usual. but really the only ones that matter are in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida, and maybe Michigan or New York. that's where the election will be won or lost.

[Darrell KSR]

Listen. I'm going to be glad Hillary isn't in office. That's almost enough. Very close.

You're right about it being academic, too, and I hope I would feel the same about my principles if that weren't the case. I'm sure it makes it easier.

[Darrell KSR]

These speeches are borderline bizarre.

Colonel Eileen Collins wouldn't even mention Trump's name? Listen, that's ridiculous. If you don't want to support the candidate, fine. But they need to go all in when in front of the camera and microphones.

And that goes for you too, Ted Cruz. Very intelligent guy. Knew what he was doing, and it wasn't right.

[CitizenBBN]

Listen. I'm going to be glad Hillary isn't in office. That's almost enough. Very close.

You're right about it being academic, too, and I hope I would feel the same about my principles if that weren't the case. I'm sure it makes it easier.

Oh I know we're on the same side ideologically. I'm sure if I had any principles left I'd feel the same as you, but you don't get to be the evil twin by having such things. :)

You know it's bad when I'm having to come up with reasons to feel good about voting for a candidate. I think I've managed to do it for myself, but that can't be a good start.

[CitizenBBN]

These speeches are borderline bizarre.

Colonel Eileen Collins wouldn't even mention Trump's name? Listen, that's ridiculous. If you don't want to support the candidate, fine. But they need to go all in when in front of the camera and microphones.

And that goes for you too, Ted Cruz. Very intelligent guy. Knew what he was doing, and it wasn't right.

I've lost all respect for Cruz. Completely. You accept the speaking slot, it's implicit you're there to support the nominee. I guarantee if he was the nominee and some of the establishment guys did that he'd lose his mind.

[Darrell KSR]

Trump family and Pence have been stars. Melania was stellar last night with her tongue in cheek parody of herself. Very cool*.

Pence was solid. Rock solid.

*Edit - left out the link to "Melania" and her parody.

http://ti.me/2a9XPXC

[Doc]

Sorry, guys. Sometimes there's a time when a man refuses to compromise his principles. This is that time. I will never let it be said that I voted for Donald Trump as the lesser of evils.

In my book, pretty much every election is me voting for the lesser of two evils. I have an innate ability to pick a candidate who will lose in the primary leaving me to vote for the least evil. It happened with Bush (four times), Romney and even McCain/Palin.

Tonight I lost any respect I had for Cruz. Granted, that wasn't much, but he showed what a self serving lying bag of crap he really is and made it clear why so many in Washington hate the guy. If he runs in 2020, I might actually vote for a democrat rather than that sack of ####

[CitizenBBN]

Doc, I both think and hope Cruz has turned his life in the GOP into hell, he surely deserves it. I don't care for the Bush clan et al skipping the convention out of either protest, principle or just temper tantrum, but for Cruz to come and accept a speaking slot and then pull that kind of stunt is way beyond the pale.

For me, like you, it's nearly always a choice between bad choices. The last President i'd have voted for with enthusiasm was Reagan, and I was too young to vote then.

[Crazy4Blue]

I'm voting for Pence

[bigsky]

No, busy with family health crises in Virginia. "...big wheel turns by the grace of God."

[UKHistory]

No, busy with family health crises in Virginia. "...big wheel turns by the grace of God."

God bless you and yours Big Sky.

[bigsky]

God bless you and yours Big Sky. Thank you. It is that time for Mother, and now for step-dad too. In ICU now with step-dad unexpectedly today and truly, I would let him go and I know he wants to go.

"Time for every purpose"

[KeithKSR]

Prayers for your family, Jeff.

[KeithKSR]

Sometimes Trump sticks his foot in his mouth, but if one looks at his actions and the big picture there is a lot to like. I've liked him for years, he used to call in to Fox and Friends every Monday morning and his observations and thoughts were on the money with what I saw happening. Many times throughout this campaign the media has reported half truths, and conveniently leaves out the details and context that completely change what was said.

[bigsky]

Ted Cruz messed in his own nest. I didnt retch with any speaker the way I will with many speaking at the next convention.

[bigsky]

But Trump didnt win my vote this week, and I'd guess he lost ground rather than having a convention bump

[KeithKSR]

But Trump didnt win my vote this week, and I'd guess he lost ground rather than having a convention bump

I think he gained a lot of ground.

[badrose]

I think (hope) he'll make up ground tonight.

[KeithKSR]

I think (hope) he'll make up ground tonight.

The Luntz focus group is an indicator that a lot of undecideds had already shifted, he needs to continue to reel them in tonight.

[suncat05]

Prayers for your family and for you, bigsky.

[Jeeepcat]

Sorry, guys. Sometimes there's a time when a man refuses to compromise his principles. This is that time. I will never let it be said that I voted for Donald Trump as the lesser of evils.

This is where I am as well. Maybe I am cutting off my nose, but I just can't do it.

[bigsky]

Prayers for your family and for you, bigsky. Thanks suncat. Staying with my sister tonight and niece's husband is a young man but long time police officer. Raided a house full of guns and drugs last night. Thought of you and the guys in BPD.

[dan_bgblue]

I am a simple man and look at the coming election this way. Trump could be the best thing that has happened to this country in 36 years or he could just be a buffoon in office that gets nothing done as congress and the supremes won't let him. I can live with that potential either way. I know what the country will get with Clinton and that makes me ill to think about.

I will vote for Trump as there is the potential for something great to be started in this country, or there will be great theater that does little damage to the nation for 4 years. To me, not voting is a vote for Clinton

[jazyd]

These speeches are borderline bizarre.

Colonel Eileen Collins wouldn't even mention Trump's name? Listen, that's ridiculous. If you don't want to support the candidate, fine. But they need to go all in when in front of the camera and microphones.

And that goes for you too, Ted Cruz. Very intelligent guy. Knew what he was doing, and it wasn't right.

Wait, why was Cruz wrong? He said he stood by his principles, same reason you give for not voting for Trump. You should be applauding Cruz, you two stand side by side. Don't critique someone for doing exactly what you are doing

[KeithKSR]

I am a simple man and look at the coming election this way. Trump could be the best thing that has happened to this country in 36 years or he could just be a buffoon in office that gets nothing done as congress and the supremes won't let him. I can live with that potential either way. I know what the country will get with Clinton and that makes me ill to think about.

I will vote for Trump as there is the potential for something great to be started in this country, or there will be great theater that does little damage to the nation for 4 years. To me, not voting is a vote for Clinton

Well said, Dan. Worst case scenario under Trump is things are basically static for four more years. Can't say that about Hiliary.

[KeithKSR]

Wait, why was Cruz wrong? He said he stood by his principles, same reason you give for not voting for Trump. You should be applauding Cruz, you two stand side by side. Don't critique someone for doing exactly what you are doing

Cruz should have pulled a Kasich or Bush and stayed home. Instead he tries to send his allies out to do his bidding and disrupt the convention with the "conscience objector" rule they wanted inserted. When Cruz was telling people to "vote their conscience" he was urging people not to vote for Trump.

The way Cruz behaved when asked about the situation by the Texas delegates he went off the deep end. America saw why no one in the Senate likes him.

[Doc]

I am a simple man and look at the coming election this way. Trump could be the best thing that has happened to this country in 36 years or he could just be a buffoon in office that gets nothing done as congress and the supremes won't let him. I can live with that potential either way. I know what the country will get with Clinton and that makes me ill to think about.

I will vote for Trump as there is the potential for something great to be started in this country, or there will be great theater that does little damage to the nation for 4 years. To me, not voting is a vote for Clinton

I see it similar. I don't believe Trump is as bad as most. Add the checks and balances and that will keep him under control but mostly I'm sick and tired of what our country has become where establishment, self serving profiteers people rule this country. My hope is Trump blows that up completely

[Doc]

PS: if Obama didn't totally destroy this nation in 8 years, 4 of which he had Congress in his pocket, I doubt Trump could in 4 years

[Catonahottinroof]

He stood on his principles in not endorsing Trump, and shredded his principles by going back on his word and signature. He can't have it both ways.

Wait, why was Cruz wrong? He said he stood by his principles, same reason you give for not voting for Trump. You should be applauding Cruz, you two stand side by side. Don't critique someone for doing exactly what you are doing

[KSRBEvans]

Wait, why was Cruz wrong? He said he stood by his principles, same reason you give for not voting for Trump. You should be applauding Cruz, you two stand side by side. Don't critique someone for doing exactly what you are doing

Darrell can speak for himself, but I was thinking the same thing about Cruz. I've got my problems with Trump (last night's speech sounded like a less optimistic Nixon--George Wallace?), but IMHO you don't speak at the nominating convention if you're not willing to endorse the candidate being nominated. Cruz should've done what many of the other non-endorsing candidates did and just stay away.

[Darrell KSR]

Wait, why was Cruz wrong? He said he stood by his principles, same reason you give for not voting for Trump. You should be applauding Cruz, you two stand side by side. Don't critique someone for doing exactly what you are doing
George Bush stood on his principles by not agreeing to go. When you accept the invitation to speak, you cannot sabotage the party. That exhibits very poor character and principles.

[Darrell KSR]

Cruz should have pulled a Kasich or Bush and stayed home. Instead he tries to send his allies out to do his bidding and disrupt the convention with the "conscience objector" rule they wanted inserted. When Cruz was telling people to "vote their conscience" he was urging people not to vote for Trump.

The way Cruz behaved when asked about the situation by the Texas delegates he went off the deep end. America saw why no one in the Senate likes him.
Exactly. Better said than I did, Keith.

[Darrell KSR]

PS: if Obama didn't totally destroy this nation in 8 years, 4 of which he had Congress in his pocket, I doubt Trump could in 4 years
I think there's a good chance you are correct here.

[Doc]

I think there's a good chance you are correct here.

That's because I believe out nation is stronger than one man or woman

[jazyd]

Cruz should have pulled a Kasich or Bush and stayed home. Instead he tries to send his allies out to do his bidding and disrupt the convention with the "conscience objector" rule they wanted inserted. When Cruz was telling people to "vote their conscience" he was urging people not to vote for Trump.

The way Cruz behaved when asked about the situation by the Texas delegates he went off the deep end. America saw why no one in the Senate likes him.

I happen to agree with you Keith, but Darrell criticized Cruz for doing exactly what Darrell is doing

I was a long time supporter of Cruz, even though I wanted Walker to win the primary, but the last several months I started having bad feelings about Cruz. There was something behind that smirk that I began to distrust. To me he is hoping to sabotage Trumps campaign and Trump lose so he.Cruz. Can run in 4 years. He us finished nationally and more than likely in Texas because he won't be able to get anything done in the senate for the rest of his term

[Darrell KSR]

I happen to agree with you Keith, but Darrell criticized Cruz for doing exactly what Darrell is doing

I was a long time supporter of Cruz, even though I wanted Walker to win the primary, but the last several months I started having bad feelings about Cruz. There was something behind that smirk that I began to distrust. To me he is hoping to sabotage Trumps campaign and Trump lose so he.Cruz. Can run in 4 years. He us finished nationally and more than likely in Texas because he won't be able to get anything done in the senate for the rest of his term

Keith, BEvans, and I are correct in criticizing Ted Cruz for accepting the podium and sabotaging the campaign. I have far more principles than that. I would not accept a position of support and do what he did. Bush and Kasich were principled men. So am I.

Your insistence on suggesting my refusal to vote for a candidate I find despicable is the same thing is beyond bizarre. It's not only not "the same thing," it is diametrically opposed to that position.

[KeithKSR]

I was a long time supporter of Cruz, even though I wanted Walker to win the primary, but the last several months I started having bad feelings about Cruz. There was something behind that smirk that I began to distrust. To me he is hoping to sabotage Trumps campaign and Trump lose so he.Cruz. Can run in 4 years. He us finished nationally and more than likely in Texas because he won't be able to get anything done in the senate for the rest of his term

I think the electorate is seeing a side of Cruz that has been a common sight in the Senate. I always found it odd that Jeff Sessions threw his early support to Trump and not Cruz. This week has shown me why. Trump seems to be very well liked by those who know him, and his kids seem to be very well grounded for kids that grew up rich or poor. Cruz is more of a lone wolf that deserves the tag, "doesn't play well with others."

[kingcat]

Most importantly, Sorry for the sad times you are going through Bigsky. God bless.
-----------------------------------------------

I,d refuse to sit on a powder keg and spit at firecrackers if I were a Republican.

To trust Trump with the future of our children is a huge risk. He can save his own no matter what major mistake he makes with another nuclear power...yours would be just a part of his failed attempt to run the world.

And if one wants to see a racial face off? Well he is the proven racist candidate....but.the outcome will be devastating to all of us. Trump is no more than an insane gamble from any angle. The day this nation becomes a subsidiary of Trump enterprises, will be the day our nation dies.

[KeithKSR]

I,d refuse to sit on a powder keg and spit at firecrackers if I were a Republican.

To trust Trump with the future of our children is a huge risk. He can save his own no matter what major mistake he makes with another nuclear power...yours would be just a part of his failed attempt to run the world.

And if one wants to see a racial face off? Well he is the proven racist candidate....but.the outcome will be devastating to all of us. Trump is no more than an insane gamble from any angle. The day this nation becomes a subsidiary of Trump enterprises, will be the day our nation dies.

That is the left wing propaganda view being espoused by the liberals, who fear Trump will cut off their gravy train.

Save our country for the ruin Hillary will bring, vote for Trump. What has the left brought us? Extreme regulations that make it impossible for businesses that hire people to be created. The worlds highest corporate tax rate, which has made businesses flock to other shores, taking manufacturing jobs with them. They gave us eight years of near zero growth, and wages that aren't stagnant, but losing ground. Higher health care premiums with less coverage. They brought us the incredibly shrinking middle class, anyone who has read the ramblings of the left knows the goal is to destroy the middle class. They have brought us the poorest race relations in my memory. The left has double our national debt in just seven years, and would have added more to it had Americans not booted them out of the majority.

Trumps' average donation is $50, he funded the primary campaign out of pocket. Hillary's average donation is much higher and she has taken in tens of millions in corporate cash.

[kingcat]

That is the left wing propaganda view being espoused by the liberals, who fear Trump will cut off their gravy train.

Save our country for the ruin Hillary will bring, vote for Trump. What has the left brought us? Extreme regulations that make it impossible for businesses that hire people to be created. The worlds highest corporate tax rate, which has made businesses flock to other shores, taking manufacturing jobs with them. They gave us eight years of near zero growth, and wages that aren't stagnant, but losing ground. Higher health care premiums with less coverage. They brought us the incredibly shrinking middle class, anyone who has read the ramblings of the left knows the goal is to destroy the middle class. They have brought us the poorest race relations in my memory. The left has double our national debt in just seven years, and would have added more to it had Americans not booted them out of the majority.

Trumps' average donation is $50, he funded the primary campaign out of pocket. Hillary's average donation is much higher and she has taken in tens of millions in corporate cash.

Right wing propaganda is served (spewed) here constantly. Some of it scary.
And to dine with the gang, one is nearly forced to eat or suffer veiled personal attacks

The difference is that in this case, this is how I feel and is not born of a hate for our country's current and past democratic leaders..or any other. My fears aren't limited to lwe "liberals" alone , but to anyone who isn't blinded by party loyalty...thus we see similar hesitation even from conservatives on this forum. I hope that is a trend repeated nationally for all our sakes.

As for the economic stability this country currently enjoys, anyone can see if not admit we rebounded from the brink of unprecedented disaster under this administration. How that has been accomplished may not suit the opposition, but can't rationally be denied

[CitizenBBN]

I have zero fear about Trump and the whole doomsday nuclear war thing. That was all trotted out for Reagan as well. Yes he's erratic in his comments, whereas for Reagan it was his sabre rattling, but it's the same concept.

First, Trump has shown no such erratic behavior in his business affairs that we know about, and that's the real measure here. Bluster and short talk is one thing, actually taking action is vastly different.

But most important, its not like the President can just wake up one day and launch nuclear weapons. Not only by law, but I just don't believe anyone would ever carry out such orders out of the blue.

Trump is blustering and very much everything I dislike about New Yorkers and Yankees in general in his behavior, but New Yorkers, even obnoxious ones, aren't more likely to go to war than anyone else.

[CitizenBBN]

As for the economic stability this country currently enjoys, anyone can see if not admit we rebounded from the brink of unprecedented disaster under this administration. How that has been accomplished may not suit the opposition, but can't rationally be denied

Oh, it can be quite rationally denied. It's the "things were bad at point A thinking, now at point B this is better, so the policies between must be good ones" approach that has us in such a mess, both from policies on the right and left. It's simply a poor way to approach economics b/c by definition economies are moving targets.

it would have taken nearly barbaric mistakes for us to actually NOT be at least somewhat better off. The 2008 bubble bust was far from "unprecedented", in fact it's a pretty regular cycle, in this case brought on mostly by government intervention in the housing market.

But the recovery has been anemic by historic standards, in fact the most tepid recovery in US history, and that was due largely to the vastly growing debt and regulations.

You won't believe any of that and that's OK, but it is the case. Obama gets no more credit for a recovery than I'd have given to Bush I or II for their reign b/c none of them have done anything except get in the way of the natural process of what is left of the US market system recovering. The market is doing that itself, not government, they're just slowing it down.

but this nation will eventually collapse under its own weight thanks to the liberalism of the last 60 years. Less than half of Americans actually contribute anything to the economy or pay any taxes, and they are carrying the weight for everyone. As that group shrinks, and it is is always shrinking, and the other grows, the failure is inevitable.

[Doc]

It interesting to hear liberals voice concern about an unstable Trump yet support a guy who has allowing and sanctioned a nuclear Iran. Guess it's because of all the stable leadership in Terhan

[dan_bgblue]

He had impeccable advice from the Secretary of State. Dictators may be crazy as loons and in that respect not stable, but they generally rule a country for a long, long time

[Doc]

He had impeccable advice from the Secretary of State

Via e-mail??

[CitizenBBN]

It interesting to hear liberals voice concern about an unstable Trump yet support a guy who has allowing and sanctioned a nuclear Iran. Guess it's because of all the stable leadership in Terhan

This.

People really think the US will start the next massive war? We will only start it by having acted badly enough to let another nation get in position to start it, not b/c we just launched missiles by random one day.

At least let's say that the odds are vastly higher that we'll cause it through inaction and policy, not through a direct attack.

[kingcat]

This.

People really think the US will start the next massive war? We will only start it by having acted badly enough to let another nation get in position to start it, not b/c we just launched missiles by random one day.



At least let's say that the odds are vastly higher that we'll cause it through inaction and policy, not through a direct attack.


The Republican Party is in disarray for a reason . Similar doubts and concerns extend to the well informed right. That speaks volumes imo.

[jazyd]

Most importantly, Sorry for the sad times you are going through Bigsky. God bless.
-----------------------------------------------

I,d refuse to sit on a powder keg and spit at firecrackers if I were a Republican.

To trust Trump with the future of our children is a huge risk. He can save his own no matter what major mistake he makes with another nuclear power...yours would be just a part of his failed attempt to run the world.

And if one wants to see a racial face off? Well he is the proven racist candidate....but.the outcome will be devastating to all of us. Trump is no more than an insane gamble from any angle. The day this nation becomes a subsidiary of Trump enterprises, will be the day our nation dies.

Racist???? The man hires black women for mgt positions, do you realize that. He had a gay man speak at the convention. He had blacks speak at the convention. He talked of defending gays.

You spill the DNC talking points straight up. Hillary is a proven liar to congress, to the American people, and the parents of those killed in Libya. She is a proven crook who will screw everyone and anyone for money. She sat back and allowed her husband to sexually assault women. She hates the military. Will open this country to hundreds and possibly thousands of terrorists posing as refugees and ISIS has said they will do it. Her foreign work was an utter disaster. She wants an open border, not because she cares about those people but they are voted, votes to allow her to keep her power and continue her crooked ways. And you openly support that???? At least you admit to supporting her unlike others who do but won't admit it

[jazyd]

BE, as a lawyer and person I have admired for a long time , you have really shocked me with your decision. Darrell didn't but you did

So let's throw out Trump, foreign affairs, immigration, economy, security, military, terrorists, attacks on Christianity

Let's talk one thing only. The Supreme Court. As a lawyer are you telling us
You are a liberal and want the court to go hard left as a result of a Hillary win
Or you could care less how the court looks.
You are willing or want the court to go left with the ability to totally change this country and its laws. Forget the 2nd amendment that means so much to citizen, sun at, Dan, Keith and myself. You are okay with the court trashing the constitution on any item they so desire with no recourse, you are ok with gambling your children and all grand children's future. For sone reason I thought you were a Christian, must have been wrong because you are willing to allow the left with the court to do great harm to Christians for generations if not forever.

You see, you are not one vote. You are many. You will have influence on others, one, five, fifteen, who knows. And they in turn influence how many. Your one no vote with your influence on others could result in thousands of people not voting, writing in a person who can't win or voting for Hillary. A no vote, write in vote same as voting for Hillary and oh how she so wants people to do just that. She doesn't care if you vote for her or not, as long as you don't vote for Ztrump.

And as a lawyer you are willing to give her the court, the highest level of your profession

Jefferson predicted this, that those like you would do this and what can happen


Only God can help us and He probably wont

[jazyd]

I have read some bad things about Trump here by people who don't know him or paid attention to what those that do have said about him. He may not be a devout Chridtian but he does things quietly for people that more Christians shoułd be doing

Some might say that Christie, Rudy, Sessions, Carson, Newt only say positive things about Trump to get a position with his administration. I don't think these men would do that. They are very smart individuals that have met with Trump, probably asked tough questions, are not the type to be easily fooled and yet each endorsed him after those sessions. But throw those out if you want, I won't because I trust them. But as a golfer I have heard from Jack Nicklause, Natalie Gulbis, Christie Kerr, all professional golfers who have nothing to gain publicly or some title. I respect each for what they have accomplished in golf and business. Each have endorsed trump..good enough foe me

[CitizenBBN]

The Republican Party is in disarray for a reason . Similar doubts and concerns extend to the well informed right. That speaks volumes imo.

Color me as the uninformed then.

The GOP is in disarray b/c the establishment is losing control and honestly b/c they didn't put in a super-delegate system that allowed the party leaders to rig things to eliminate candidates they don't want to win. Had the DNC not had them and Sanders had gotten traction and won they'd be showing a lot of the same fraying.

but it's about power and control, not the scare tactic of Trump having his finger on some imaginary button that ends the world. That's the same stuff they trotted out for Reagan in 1980 and I listened to 8 years of how his next move was going to cause a nuclear war. Not unsurprisingly, that's a really really high threshold.

THe fit Trump is giving those folks is he's not one of them.

I will say I have little worry about Clinton going to war with Russia. They're one of her largest donors.

[kingcat]

Color me as the uninformed then.

The GOP is in disarray b/c the establishment is losing control and honestly b/c they didn't put in a super-delegate system that allowed the party leaders to rig things to eliminate candidates they don't want to win. Had the DNC not had them and Sanders had gotten traction and won they'd be showing a lot of the same fraying.

but it's about power and control, not the scare tactic of Trump having his finger on some imaginary button that ends the world. That's the same stuff they trotted out for Reagan in 1980 and I listened to 8 years of how his next move was going to cause a nuclear war. Not unsurprisingly, that's a really really high threshold.

THe fit Trump is giving those folks is he's not one of them.

I will say I have little worry about Clinton going to war with Russia. They're one of her largest donors.

I did not call you uninformed anymore than you would call anti Trump conservatives here and elsewhere the same.

My point remains.

[CitizenBBN]

I did not call you uninformed anymore than you would call anti Trump conservatives here and elsewhere the same.

My point remains.

You said informed people on the right share your view, that means uninformed people do not, implicitly bc of their failure to be informed.

I was just having fun w that part, but the idea that I'd take issue w anti trump conservatives is false. I'll Argue they should vote for him but I'd rather have had almost any other of the 16 candidates.

But trump has plenty of warts without having to speculate and say he's going to kill our children in a made up nuclear war.

[bigsky]

I got nothing to add or detract from national politics. Even at a state level, the people we send to the Republican convention, mostly, werent the people I recognized from R party when I got into "Reagan's big tent". They've folded up that tent.

[KSRBEvans]

BE, as a lawyer and person I have admired for a long time , you have really shocked me with your decision. Darrell didn't but you did

So let's throw out Trump, foreign affairs, immigration, economy, security, military, terrorists, attacks on Christianity

Let's talk one thing only. The Supreme Court. As a lawyer are you telling us
You are a liberal and want the court to go hard left as a result of a Hillary win
Or you could care less how the court looks.
You are willing or want the court to go left with the ability to totally change this country and its laws. Forget the 2nd amendment that means so much to citizen, sun at, Dan, Keith and myself. You are okay with the court trashing the constitution on any item they so desire with no recourse, you are ok with gambling your children and all grand children's future. For sone reason I thought you were a Christian, must have been wrong because you are willing to allow the left with the court to do great harm to Christians for generations if not forever.

You see, you are not one vote. You are many. You will have influence on others, one, five, fifteen, who knows. And they in turn influence how many. Your one no vote with your influence on others could result in thousands of people not voting, writing in a person who can't win or voting for Hillary. A no vote, write in vote same as voting for Hillary and oh how she so wants people to do just that. She doesn't care if you vote for her or not, as long as you don't vote for Ztrump.

And as a lawyer you are willing to give her the court, the highest level of your profession

Jefferson predicted this, that those like you would do this and what can happen


Only God can help us and He probably wont

Jazy, I'm disappointed you're not disappointed in Darrell, too. I like to think we're equally disappointing. ;)

The Supreme Court argument is compelling on its face, but for me it ultimately fails for the same reason that Trump's neo-populist approach also fails.

As with many aspects of the Presidency, on judicial/legal matters Trump himself has no coherent philosophy except for how he can use it to bend the system to his will*. (See, for example, his position on changing the 1st Amendment to make it easier for public figures to make defamation cases (http://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2016/02/donald-trump-libel-laws-219866), or his position on having the military violate the law of war when he orders them to (http://reason.com/blog/2016/03/03/donald-trump-says-military-wont-refuse-h)).

I have no confidence that Trump will produce reliably conservative candidates. To do that you have to believe Trump is reliable and conservative, and he's neither.

And for those who believe he'll be reined in by Pence or whomever else, all you have to do is check out his spectacle of a press conference yesterday where less than 24 hours after accepting his party's nomination, he used that all-important time to once again go (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/23/us/politics/donald-trump-ted-cruz-convention.html?_r=0) after Ted Cruz and argue his dad might have been associated with the JFK assassination. My guess is Pence (who was standing behind him in the familiar Chris Christie position) had to be wondering what he got himself into.

This is a guy who said (http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/02/15/trump-sure-said-sister-supreme-court-idea-believes/) his sister (who favors partial birth abortion) would be a great Supreme Court justice.** He nominally backed away from that after he was called on it (as he did with his statement that he would give military illegal orders that they would obey, "believe me"), but IMHO it's more likely he backs away from these startlingly disturbing positions not because he has changed his mind, but because he was called on them.

So for anyone who's confident in anything Trump will do on judicial issues, I'll just say you're more confident than I am. Those who feel compelled to vote for Trump as the "Not-Hillary," I understand that position and won't try to talk you out of it. I still find both candidates unfit to hold office and can't vote for either.




*--Some will say "Yeah, but Obama's that way, too!" I didn't like it when he did it, either. "2 wrongs," etc.


**--BTW, Trump's speech was the longest since 1972. Number of times he mentioned abortion or pro-life issues: 0.

[bigsky]

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/07/21/what-is-the-republican-party/i-want-a-party-to-inspire-me-not-frighten-me?smid=fb-share

[kingcat]

You said informed people on the right share your view, that means uninformed people do not, implicitly bc of their failure to be informed.

I was just having fun w that part, but the idea that I'd take issue w anti trump conservatives is false. I'll Argue they should vote for him but I'd rather have had almost any other of the 16 candidates.

But trump has plenty of warts without having to speculate and say he's going to kill our children in a made up nuclear war.

Points well taken, but to read the above implication into my words a person would seemingly have to believe anyone who disagrees is uninformed.

To be clear, I believe that one can be informed and quite capable of distrusting Trump from an informed perspective. Both conservative, liberal, as well as middle of the road.
If I intended to imply anything, it is that disgruntled republicans can be just as informed as the "trumpeteers"

P.S.
My point remains that, in this of all elections, conservatives who might abstain from participating in the process because of the republican candidate, should support the thought that Mr. trump is a particularly dangerous choice.

And that in turn lends at least partial support to my own fears, strengthening the argument against your candidate..

I dunno', perhaps I'll abstain from voting myself. But my concerns are of a different nature with this man than any other candidate in history.

"It" feels like something from 1934 to me. Only a much more powerful entity wanting ultimate power and ethnic cleansing.

[CitizenBBN]

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/07/21/what-is-the-republican-party/i-want-a-party-to-inspire-me-not-frighten-me?smid=fb-share

I agree, which is why I said Trump was the wrong man at the right time. The nation would revel in a Reagan-inspired candidate, a man like Trump who is an outsider.

Instead we get Trump, a populist defined by his very lack of definition, and Hillary, perhaps the most corrupt candidate since the turn of the last century. It's a pretty depressing election no doubt.

[CitizenBBN]

Jazy, I'm disappointed you're not disappointed in Darrell, too. I like to think we're equally disappointing. ;)

The Supreme Court argument is compelling on its face, but for me it ultimately fails for the same reason that Trump's neo-populist approach also fails.

As with many aspects of the Presidency, on judicial/legal matters Trump himself has no coherent philosophy except for how he can use it to bend the system to his will*. (See, for example, his position on changing the 1st Amendment to make it easier for public figures to make defamation cases (http://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2016/02/donald-trump-libel-laws-219866), or his position on having the military violate the law of war when he orders them to (http://reason.com/blog/2016/03/03/donald-trump-says-military-wont-refuse-h)).

I have no confidence that Trump will produce reliably conservative candidates. To do that you have to believe Trump is reliable and conservative, and he's neither.

And for those who believe he'll be reined in by Pence or whomever else, all you have to do is check out his spectacle of a press conference yesterday where less than 24 hours after accepting his party's nomination, he used that all-important time to once again go (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/23/us/politics/donald-trump-ted-cruz-convention.html?_r=0) after Ted Cruz and argue his dad might have been associated with the JFK assassination. My guess is Pence (who was standing there behind him in the familiar Chris Christie position) had to be wondering what he got himself into.

This is a guy who said (http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/02/15/trump-sure-said-sister-supreme-court-idea-believes/) his sister (who favors partial birth abortion) would be a great Supreme Court justice.** He nominally backed away from that after he was called on it (as he did with his statement that he would give military illegal orders that they would obey, "believe me"), but IMHO it's more likely he backs away from these startlingly disturbing positions not because he has changed his mind, but because he was called on them.

So for anyone who's confident in anything Trump will do on judicial issues, I'll just say you're more confident than I am. Those who feel compelled to vote for Trump as the "Not-Hillary," I understand that position and won't try to talk you out of it. I still find both candidates unfit to hold office and can't vote for either.




*--Some will say "Yeah, but Obama's that way, too!" I didn't like it when he did it, either. "2 wrongs," etc.


**--BTW, Trump's speech was the longest since 1972. Number of times he mentioned abortion or pro-life issues: 0.

I'm disappointed for all of us, does that help? :)

I agree with every word, and no I can't guarantee Trump will nominate someone I like.

I do think he has come out with a list of names that are solid, and don't include crazy choices like relatives, but there's no guarantee that's how it will go.

But I KNOW who Hillary will pick, and I'm sure I will hate those choices. whereas with Trump there's a better than 50/50 chance I'll be OK with them b/c he'll want to nominate someone who helps him politically and that will be a more strict constructionist person. Not a guarantee, but decently likely.

No, neither candidate is fit to hold office. It's unreal it's come to this, certainly the worst election choices going back more than a century.

The problem is that one of them will still take and hold that office. I'd rather it be someone more influenced by conservatives than Hillary Clinton. Esp. with the SCOTUS picks as long as the GOP has a majority we have a solid chance of getting at least a moderate on the bench. With Hillary a moderate would be our best case scenario, and I dont' think it's very likely.

[KeithKSR]

I have read some bad things about Trump here by people who don't know him or paid attention to what those that do have said about him. He may not be a devout Chridtian but he does things quietly for people that more Christians shoułd be doing

Some might say that Christie, Rudy, Sessions, Carson, Newt only say positive things about Trump to get a position with his administration. I don't think these men would do that. They are very smart individuals that have met with Trump, probably asked tough questions, are not the type to be easily fooled and yet each endorsed him after those sessions. But throw those out if you want, I won't because I trust them. But as a golfer I have heard from Jack Nicklause, Natalie Gulbis, Christie Kerr, all professional golfers who have nothing to gain publicly or some title. I respect each for what they have accomplished in golf and business. Each have endorsed trump..good enough foe me

I've heard stories about Trump doing really nice things for complete strangers who were in need, or who went out of their way to help him or others. Included among these are his paying off mortgages.

[KeithKSR]

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/07/21/what-is-the-republican-party/i-want-a-party-to-inspire-me-not-frighten-me?smid=fb-share

I found this to be ironic, Republicans were the party of optimism not envy, who looked to the future instead of clinging to the past.

In this article the author writes about how she herself is clinging to the past.

The establishment politicians need to go.

[KeithKSR]

I agree, which is why I said Trump was the wrong man at the right time. The nation would revel in a Reagan-inspired candidate, a man like Trump who is an outsider.

Instead we get Trump, a populist defined by his very lack of definition, and Hillary, perhaps the most corrupt candidate since the turn of the last century. It's a pretty depressing election no doubt.

I'm not so sure that Trump isn't the right guy at the right time. Do we really want an ideologue who is inflexible at this point in time? Trump is more of a pragmatic problem solver who is untethered by the monetary influences and special unterest groups that subjugate most politicians.

Trump seems less wed to social issues, and more focused on the issues of security and economics; two issues most important to voters.

[KeithKSR]

I'm disappointed for all of us, does that help? :)

I agree with every word, and no I can't guarantee Trump will nominate someone I like.

I do think he has come out with a list of names that are solid, and don't include crazy choices like relatives, but there's no guarantee that's how it will go.

But I KNOW who Hillary will pick, and I'm sure I will hate those choices. whereas with Trump there's a better than 50/50 chance I'll be OK with them b/c he'll want to nominate someone who helps him politically and that will be a more strict constructionist person. Not a guarantee, but decently likely.

No, neither candidate is fit to hold office. It's unreal it's come to this, certainly the worst election choices going back more than a century.

The problem is that one of them will still take and hold that office. I'd rather it be someone more influenced by conservatives than Hillary Clinton. Esp. with the SCOTUS picks as long as the GOP has a majority we have a solid chance of getting at least a moderate on the bench. With Hillary a moderate would be our best case scenario, and I dont' think it's very likely.

Hillary is beholden to the left to nominate a liberal. Trump is at least on record as wanting to nominate a Scalia type Constitutionalist.

[jazyd]

Brian, Trump has already given us his list of judges, Mick is very high on the one from Ala and after reading his credentials I understand why.

I won't give up my vote, not in an election this critical for the nation, my granddaughters and my church along with mu rights

Look how nutty the left is, Kerry says my AC and refrig is as dangerous as ISIS. And those people will select the court.

IMO McCain was much worse than Trump and Romney was further left then Trump, I held my nose and voted for both

[HerbTarlek]

Most importantly, Sorry for the sad times you are going through Bigsky. God bless.
-----------------------------------------------

I,d refuse to sit on a powder keg and spit at firecrackers if I were a Republican.

To trust Trump with the future of our children is a huge risk. He can save his own no matter what major mistake he makes with another nuclear power...yours would be just a part of his failed attempt to run the world.

And if one wants to see a racial face off? Well he is the proven racist candidate....but.the outcome will be devastating to all of us. Trump is no more than an insane gamble from any angle. The day this nation becomes a subsidiary of Trump enterprises, will be the day our nation dies.

You're right. I don't want to be a racist, and I don't want the world to explode! What do I do? I guess I'll vote for Hillary, because that would mean I'm not a racist, right? I think that's how it works. At least that what you, and every democrat says. Because their aren't any other reasons to vote for or against candidates. Nope. Just "world go boom, omg!" or "I hate black people so I'm going to vote for a privileged, aristocratic white woman." I'm sold. Hillary for president!

[Darrell KSR]

Jazy couldn't figure out what character and principle mean, as he has an agenda of attacking yours truly. The principle is there, and shared by good and decent men.

I won't cast a vote for the vile Hillary Clinton, who should be on trial and eventually, in jail. I do place my faith and trust that making principled decisions will lead to a good result, even if it is bitter in the short term.

Jazy, you can resume your regular attacks now.