12 Dallas police officers shot, 5 killed

[Darrell KSR]

Protest and two snipers apparently involved. One suspect killed.

What a country we live in. Where does this end?

[Darrell KSR]

@CBSNews: UPDATE: 12 officers shot, 5 killed, by snipers in #Dallas; continuing coverage on CBSN http://cbsn.ws/29rpXY3 http://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/751381322627686400/photo/1

[dan_bgblue]

Very sad news to wake up to this morning.

[KeithKSR]

This all tracks directly to Obama and Holder's feet, when they pronounced racism in a rush to judgement in Ferguson over Michael Brown's assault on Darren Wilson, which led to Brown's death when Wilson defended himself.

[Doc]

This all tracks directly to Obama and Holder's feet, when they pronounced racism in a rush to judgement in Ferguson over Michael Brown's assault on Darren Wilson, which led to Brown's death when Wilson defended himself.


I agree. He panders to the African American race baiters yet scolds anybody who judges any other race, be it Arabs or Mexicans (Latinos-yes, I know "Mexican" isn't a race).

I'm not convinced the police shootings in either MN or LA were justified and if not I hope the offics are appropriately punished. However the encouragement of civil disobedience and VIOLENCE (which is what They did in both Baltimore and Freguson) actively encourages this type of reaction

[dan_bgblue]

Warning, this is an op ed piece from a conservative writer at FoxNews that as he says is not politically correct. (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/07/08/dallas-attack-pigs-in-blanket-crowd-got-what-wanted.html)

[suncat05]

Pretty much right on point in my view.

[CitizenBBN]

Warning, this is an op ed piece from a conservative writer at FoxNews that as he says is not politically correct. (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/07/08/dallas-attack-pigs-in-blanket-crowd-got-what-wanted.html)

Whenever there is a Muslim terrorist attack they are quick to urge people not to rush to judgment. And yet, when there is a police-involved shooting, it’s “Guilty, Guilty, Guilty


Sums it up pretty well imo.

[kingcat]

There are some less divisive, more productive discussions out there. Like the lady says, we can either be part of the solution or the problem.
That goes for all of us imo.

When discussing racial issues, if it ends in hate, then it likely began with hate.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/the-acts-of-heroism-during-a-deadly-night-in-dallas/ar-BBu6pV7?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

[dan_bgblue]

kingcat, if it were left up to a huge majority of the country's citizens there would be plenty of peace and getting along. Sadly there is a very small minority of the citizens that are shouting the loudest on all sides of every issue, and that small minority winds up on the national news nightly. They have a vested interest in causing discord and inciting people to mistrust their neighbor and the law enforcement community. Some of their activity is overt like black lives matter organizers shouting things like the only good cop is a dead cop and some of it is much more subtle, but it is available for public consumption. This can cause people that feel disenfranchised or disaffected to do things like shoot up a portion of the Dallas law enforcement community. jmho

[PedroDaGr8]

kingcat, if it were left up to a huge majority of the country's citizens there would be plenty of peace and getting along. Sadly there is a very small minority of the citizens that are shouting the loudest on all sides of every issue, and that small minority winds up on the national news nightly. They have a vested interest in causing discord and inciting people to mistrust their neighbor and the law enforcement community. Some of their activity is overt like black lives matter organizers shouting things like the only good cop is a dead cop and some of it is much more subtle, but it is available for public consumption. This can cause people that feel disenfranchised or disaffected to do things like shoot up a portion of the Dallas law enforcement community. jmho

The militarization of law enforcement via the war on drugs has done a lot too. In many jurisdictions, a large percentage of the police force view themselves as indescriminate enforcers of law, instead of protecting and serving. This goes for how they treat ANYONE who is not rich and white.

Also, like it or not, but blacks are OFTEN treated differently by the police than white people like you or me. I have seen it first hand too many times to count (often as the passenger in a car of an african american friend). heck, back in college I had a friend who drove a very stereotypical african-american car and he was pulled over easily 5-10x more often than the rest of us (even though he is white and honestly a meticulous driver). I have also heard how a few police talk outside of work. Two of the ONLY times in my life where I have been in the company of someone who used the n-word actively and regularly like it was still the 1950s were with off-duty police officers. One from Lexington, KY and one from NYC. This is NOT to paint all police in a bad brush, there are a majority which are good. The fact is though, just as you mentioned about the small minority in the BLM movement causing issues, there are a small minority in the police force which are causing these issues.

This is the latest symptom in a problem which has been ongoing for a long long time. There is NO easy answer to the problem because there african american community issues, police issues, white racism issues, legacy of slavery and prejudcie issues, economic issues, education issues and on and on and on. Any attempt to point the finger in one direction is ONLY seeing the smaller picture. There is no easy answer and it might take a LOT of chaos before our society can come out the other side as a better society. Even then, it isn't guaranteed because there are politicians on BOTH sides that want this to continue. it keeps them in power.

I need to reiterate, this is NOT to paint all police in a bad light. I know quite a few that are good and honest ppl, suncat included (I respect the hell out of him). This also doesn't mean there are not huge cultural issues in many police forces in many cities in how they view their position with respect to dealing with community.


EDIT: One more thing, the BIGGEST and most DANGEROUS thing I see going on right now is an increase in tribalism between factions. You are either an ally of BLM or you are racist. You hate BLM or you are a liberal scum. You are either a supporter of the police or you hate cops. This is completely unnacceptable to me, because the answers are NEVER black and white and are often answers we don't initially see. Untangling something this complex will NEVER. This extends well beyond just this issue, the polarization keeps getting stronger and stronger and is one of the more dangerous things to the state of our union and BOTH sides are responsible for it.

[kingcat]

Some good points all around. We must step back and get a proper perspective on things as a whole.
I know it's not the 'wise thing to believe, but I think there is a greater deceit going on than we want to think. And neither political party, nor any president, congressman or public servant is behind it.
It is in what we are being fed mentally every day by the news media. We are just like players in a reality show, having our opinions formed for us slowly and subtly. To force us to look one direction while being divided and conquered from within.

We're also fighting an enemy which conveniently has no nation to attack nor definition for victory. It will never end folks...at least not until God ends it.

The political divide is being manipulated by people with billions of dollars at their disposal, some even well known citizens of other countries with backgrounds in such deceit. Rush Linbaugh, MSNBC, Fox "News", right and left wing political blogs, and many others from all sides have nearly destroyed our nation and way of life. Left wing and right wing, conservative and liberal, black versus white,and on and on.
News isn't reported, it's commented on. And in many cases, carefully fabricated. Not since Nazi Germany has propaganda been so rampant. The end game is even more terrifying however. Not to take over the world by force, but have it handed over willingly.

Everything is being staged as a sport with two distinct sides. Bitter rivals who are conditioned to hate and consider it a good thing to do so.
Our perception being trained to blame each other for every little or major attack on our way of life.

Good is now evil and evil is good, and such deceit will only grow stronger until Christ finally intervenes. But first, the whole world will be fooled into believing a lie...that time is quickly approaching my friends. And many a very wise man and woman will believe it.

[dan_bgblue]

Police officer ambushed in St Louis (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/09/missouri-police-officer-fighting-for-his-life-after-ambush-shooting.html)

[kingcat]

Police officer ambushed in St Louis (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/09/missouri-police-officer-fighting-for-his-life-after-ambush-shooting.html)

The guy did time on a weapons charge but they report it unrelated. sad stuff.

[KeithKSR]

The conflict is straight out of Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals."

Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.

[bigsky]

War on Drugs
Police forces hiring almost all MP type vets

Both of these I see up close.

Gangs and the destruction of the black family by the system

The President drumming the race war drumbeat.

Most of all, cops dont meet the people we do, dont see the same society we see. Not in St Paul, not in Bozeman, not in Dallas.

[dan_bgblue]

Most of all, cops dont meet the people we do, dont see the same society we see. Not in St Paul, not in Bozeman, not in Dallas.

That is a point that I have not seen discussed and it is a very important one

[dan_bgblue]

See what I am talking about when mentioning those that shout the loudest? (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/11/black-militia-co-founder-dallas-shooter-shall-be-celebrated.html)

It happens on both sides of any controversial issue in this country

Soon after Thursday night’s attack in downtown Dallas that killed five police officers and wounded nine others, the co-founder of the Huey P. Newton Gun Club, Yafeuh Balogun, tweeted: “I have no remorse for the Dallas Police Officers shot downtown, it’s about time.. at the protest etc.”

[KeithKSR]

See what I am talking about when mentioning those that shout the loudest? (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/11/black-militia-co-founder-dallas-shooter-shall-be-celebrated.html)

It happens on both sides of any controversial issue in this country

Soon after Thursday night’s attack in downtown Dallas that killed five police officers and wounded nine others, the co-founder of the Huey P. Newton Gun Club, Yafeuh Balogun, tweeted: “I have no remorse for the Dallas Police Officers shot downtown, it’s about time.. at the protest etc.”

That is a Black Panther group in case anyone is interested.

[suncat05]

I was an MP in the Army. Good training, good experience, and most importantly, good discipline. That experience has been invaluable to both my career AND my life. I do not regret one second of that experience.
Another item mentioned by bigsky is also true, and few people even think of this in that perspective: many of the people that I and most other LEO'S deal with are NOT nice or good people. Not all, but most. There's that word again: perspective.

[Darrell KSR]

Another item mentioned by bigsky is also true, and few people even think of this in that perspective: many of the people that I and most other LEO'S deal with are NOT nice or good people. Not all, but most. There's that word again: perspective.

My wife and I were discussing this exact point during a 9.5 hour car ride yesterday. I've had some small dealings with being in that environment due to some things I've worked with over the years (is that vague enough?), and it's just a different world. It's hard to project what "we" see each day with what "they" experience in real life on a daily basis.

Great points by both of you.

[KeithKSR]

My wife and I were discussing this exact point during a 9.5 hour car ride yesterday. I've had some small dealings with being in that environment due to some things I've worked with over the years (is that vague enough?), and it's just a different world. It's hard to project what "we" see each day with what "they" experience in real life on a daily basis.

Great points by both of you.

To drive home the point we only need to look at the lengthy criminal records most of these "innocent victims" of police involved incidents.

[CitizenBBN]

The great guilt ridden middle American mass just has no clue what it's like to be a cop or deal with that world. None.

I barely touched on it, but I did some growing up, and I imagine that's part of what has made me a bit more cautious and aware than many around me, and less naive. There's a whole subculture in this country of people who don't give a crap about the values of respecting others and oneself, and the police deal with it every day and protect the rest of us from that group.

It doesn't justify being racist, but it does justify being suspicious and even overtly authoritative when engaging in a situation until they know what is going on.

We should always guard against abuse by law enforcement, but I invite any hang wringing middle class person upset with it to go do their job for a week, and for those who live in those depressed communities where so much police attention is needed I think the Dallas chief said it best: get on the same side as the police and start working together to be part of the solution.

[CitizenBBN]

To drive home the point we only need to look at the lengthy criminal records most of these "innocent victims" of police involved incidents.

Yep.

So far the only one of late that is dissimilar is the shooting in Wisconsin. In that case I won't defend the officer b/c you absolutely cannot pull the trigger till you see a threat, and I think he pulled when the guy just didn't heed the order to not move his hands, but it's also the case that the guy needed to not move his hands.

Doesn't excuse the officer, I imagine you can't find a cop who doesn't know that it comes with the job that you are taking that risk and must wait till there is clear danger, but I do wonder why the guy didn't just hold his hands up and not move.

[dan_bgblue]

Suspect accused of firing at Indiana officer's car and home, screaming he hates police (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/12/suspect-accused-firing-at-indiana-officers-car-and-home-screaming-hates-police.html)

[UKHistory]

Citizen what you said is so clearly accurate for so many of us. We don't know what police go through daily. Many of don't understand what soldiers do either. That has to be considered before spouting off. I agree with you.

It doesn't justify abusing the badge or becoming so callous as to forget to protect the people. But we have to have a better understanding of what law enforcement faces everyday and support them. By all accounts the police department in Dallas has really done a good job of working with folks.

With this understanding I think we will have a better understanding also how to improve their training and what we as citizens can do to be better citizens too.

The bad apples in every profession and the bad decisions made by good people unfortunately stand out. Bad police work makes the news because by definition it is out of the norm. Just like not every hot, young good looking female teacher is having sex with their students.

It is newsworthy. But the good ones in a profession that are in a position to abuse power whether it is police or teachers or the clergy should be quick condemn wrong behavior and work to ensure it doesn't happen again. Dick Vitale never met a coach who was not great and the Vatican seemed to ignore predator priests. How often do police stand up against police who do wrong?

On matters of race, we as a nation have not always treated folks right. We all have to deal with that legacy. It starts with each of us trying to be good neighbors to all.

One other point that needs to be made, even criminals and the worst of us have rights. Rodney King was not a role model or a good guy but he didn't deserve to be beaten like he was. I don't care what he did. He did not deserve to be beaten. He was not innocent and in God's eyes none of us are. But Rodney King was a victim at the hands of law enforcement.

Now those police officers were acquitted of beating a man and it is quite possible that the laws are written in such a way that police can do that and it be legal.

The rules of engagement and the training police get could be such that police can act that way.

At one time British soldiers could come in our homes whenever they wanted. Being legal doesn't make something right.

Emmett Till was most likely an obnoxious smart ass who very well could have made unwanted and inappropriate comments to a woman(en) who happened to be white. He did not deserve to be beaten to death for acting like a jerk.

Those college kids who tried to sign up blacks in Mississippi to vote did not deserve to die. They made a lot of people angry and law enforcement down there helped kill them.

And those police officers in Dallas doing their job did not deserve to die either.

Who is my neighbor? We all have to ask that question. And when we ive the right answer things are easier.

Respect is a two way street. We must respect representatives of the law. Representatives of the law must respect the citizenry otherwise they are tyrants.




The great guilt ridden middle American mass just has no clue what it's like to be a cop or deal with that world. None.

I barely touched on it, but I did some growing up, and I imagine that's part of what has made me a bit more cautious and aware than many around me, and less naive. There's a whole subculture in this country of people who don't give a crap about the values of respecting others and oneself, and the police deal with it every day and protect the rest of us from that group.

It doesn't justify being racist, but it does justify being suspicious and even overtly authoritative when engaging in a situation until they know what is going on.

We should always guard against abuse by law enforcement, but I invite any hang wringing middle class person upset with it to go do their job for a week, and for those who live in those depressed communities where so much police attention is needed I think the Dallas chief said it best: get on the same side as the police and start working together to be part of the solution.

[suncat05]

But still.........I do not know a thing about Indiana law, but besides being a convicted felon in possession of a handgun and ammunition, and unlawfully discharging a firearm multiple times, it probably is also illegal to discharge a firearm into a vehicle and a occupied domicile too.
Or maybe the guy just wants to go back to his prison cell. For some people, prison is home.

[bigsky]

BTW Im glad they blew the (expletives deleted) up. Despite the handwringing by liberals and even my libertarian colleagues, he was sniping cops; cops get to snipe back. I only wish they'd used a flamethrower.

[CitizenBBN]

Not sure why anyone would be upset they blew him up. to me it's ingenious. Talks broke down, he was holed up, no reason to let any threat continue.

[kingcat]

Not sure why anyone would be upset they blew him up. to me it's ingenious. Talks broke down, he was holed up, no reason to let any threat continue.

I'd have hit the button myself.

[CitizenBBN]

BTW Im glad they blew the (expletives deleted) up. Despite the handwringing by liberals and even my libertarian colleagues, he was sniping cops; cops get to snipe back. I only wish they'd used a flamethrower.

I found an argument where they were concerned b/c they saw it as militarization of the police.

i have expressed concerns on that before, but I don't see this as that kind of thing really. If deadly force was justified, and it was in this case as it is whenever there is a dangerous armed person holed up and refusing to surrender, then I see no reason why we'd risk officer's lives versus a robot.

The militarization risk of police has to do with the mindset, and how the police deal with group situations and how threats are assessed. But once we have a clear threat using civilians rules of engagement, saying an armed robot was "militarization" when a M16 rifle (which police SWAT units have had since they were first built) is OK is silly IMO. The problem is when all cops start carrying M16s and using them to deal with everyday law enforcement situations, creating an unhealthy "us versus them" mentality on both sides.

[Doc]

I've got no issue with "militarization" of the police force. Head to Mexico sometime, or many of the European counties. Its common to see the Police patrolling with military weapons. Does it make one uncomfortable? Yes but also makes one feel safer,

[suncat05]

Anywhere in Europe the police AND the military carry automatic weapons. The Philippines too. Every country I have ever been to outside the U.S. Now, have not been to Australia yet, but my wife has two brothers that live there. From what I've been told, most of the LEO'S there still don't carry handguns. I haven't seen it myself, that's second hand information, but if true that would be the exception.

[suncat05]

I've got no issue with "militarization" of the police force. Head to Mexico sometime, or many of the European counties. Its common to see the Police patrolling with military weapons. Does it make one uncomfortable? Yes but also makes one feel safer,

Having it available, and then using it correctly for the given situation when necessary. Any other uses may tend to be excessive and thereby send the wrong message. And it's just bad public relations. We want the citizens on our side, not being wary of the police and afraid of us. That is counterproductive to a peaceful society.

[UKHistory]

I am very weary of the militarization of the police and I am very concerned when our soldiers go door to door in other countries like Kosovo and collect weaspons.

We are moving if not already there to not have a rights of privacy, to exercise the 4th and 5th amendments. That is a concern.

In the use of a robot to kill a sniper, no one could sanely question the Dallas police department's decision. It ended a horrible standoff that had already taken the lives of 5 policeman and wounding 7 others plus the public. It raises long term implications about law enforcement which needs to be about protecting and serving rather than search and destroy.

I don't like seeing police in sci fi body armor or camo BDUs.

I really am concerned that law enforcement gets military weapons and equipment as I think they will more often use them. Human nature-- it is there. Use it.

I am not one who like to use other countries for a comparison to us. Just because the Philippines does something or Israel does something does not make that right for the US.

Benchmark what others do. But if we are leading the charge we don't need to look back and try to emulate others too much.

[suncat05]

History, many of us are wary of those same things. Even many of us in law enforcement. There is a right time and place for the correct application of such tools. And it has to be 100% correct and justifiable.

[bigsky]

I'm with ukhistory. Traffic police thinking Bozeman is Fallujah. The change to more of a military uniform. Sneaking around buying Bearcat Assault vehicles for terrorists in towns of 40,000. (Yes I can see its utility for going up against a crazy guy with a .300 winchester mag) (but that isnt what they said to get one). The foundation buying military gear as part of the ordinary equipment outside of civilian city commission authority.

So when the asst chief shot a guy in a traffic stop I was happy, yes, happy he did it. It was kill or be killed. Thats why we arm our peace officers. And they have to react so instantly, I worry that what is the right instinct when policing a civilian population with whom you are at war is so automatic that it is the response here, where civilians are their neighbors.

I admire the guys for maintaining some normalcy in the face of drunken, hostile, belligerence from a seamy societal underbelly.

But I'm struggling with this post Iraq war change in who we hire and and how they approach civilian authority.

[UKHistory]

History, many of us are wary of those same things. Even many of us in law enforcement. There is a right time and place for the correct application of such tools. And it has to be 100% correct and justifiable.

Suncat,

Good folks can agree to disagree and respect one another. That said, I am pleased we share the same concerns. You and your colleagues in law enforcement across the country puts yourselves in harm's way for us daily. Thank you for what you do.

As Americans and as human beings we need to see the good in one another while always striving to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility and follow the rest of the Constitution.

[KeithKSR]

I don't worry about our local town police becoming militarized. Their budget is so lean they can only have one officer on duty at a time.

[Doc]

Having it available, and then using it correctly for the given situation when necessary. Any other uses may tend to be excessive and thereby send the wrong message. And it's just bad public relations. We want the citizens on our side, not being wary of the police and afraid of us. That is counterproductive to a peaceful society.

You go over to Europe and you don't feel wary of the police. We were in Paris just prior to the bombing of Charlie Hebdot. At Xmas, the Champs de Elysee is closed a large festival is hosted there. Prime terrorist target. Squads of 5-10 heavily armed, camo decked officers were patrolling every block. Nobody was wary as they were there to protect and everybody knew it. They simply patrolled the area so there was no public relations issues. In fact they promoted a peaceful society.

[dan_bgblue]

Black Panther Party to rally at the Republican convention and intend to go armed while there (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/07/13/new-black-panther-party-plans-to-bring-guns-to-gop-convention-if-law-allows.html)

[CitizenBBN]

Militarization isn't about using a robot to kill a clear threat who had already committed mass murder.

It's about a mentality. When we send the army into a place to lock it down they are there as an occupying force to quell resistance and maintain control. The police are here to aid and protect and serve.

The military is "us versus them", the police cannot fall into that thinking. For them it's "we protect them". The fear is that if they are suited up in camo and armor riding around in armor plated vehicles they have totally removed themselves from the community. They have also become a response agency, not an active prevent agency.

The old days of foot patrols and beats and cops knowing the people they protected, that is what is lost. Guliani in New York brought some of that back and it was also tremendously effective in reducing crime. I'd like to see that brought back in as many places as possible, where I know the actual officers who watch out for my neighborhood. I imagine that's very expensive, but I'd rather spend on that than most other things we throw money at in this country.

But that's what "militarization" is about, the mentality of separating the police from the citizenry. They need to be part of us, and it's also beholden on the citizenry to feel the same way.

[KeithKSR]

Militarization isn't about using a robot to kill a clear threat who had already committed mass murder.

It's about a mentality. When we send the army into a place to lock it down they are there as an occupying force to quell resistance and maintain control. The police are here to aid and protect and serve.

The military is "us versus them", the police cannot fall into that thinking. For them it's "we protect them". The fear is that if they are suited up in camo and armor riding around in armor plated vehicles they have totally removed themselves from the community. They have also become a response agency, not an active prevent agency.

The old days of foot patrols and beats and cops knowing the people they protected, that is what is lost. Guliani in New York brought some of that back and it was also tremendously effective in reducing crime. I'd like to see that brought back in as many places as possible, where I know the actual officers who watch out for my neighborhood. I imagine that's very expensive, but I'd rather spend on that than most other things we throw money at in this country.

But that's what "militarization" is about, the mentality of separating the police from the citizenry. They need to be part of us, and it's also beholden on the citizenry to feel the same way.

I like the community based policing that many cities have introduced. Police patrol in the area they are from, so they know the people and people are more trusting of them.