Horrible - 50+ dead in Orlando nightclub shooting spree [Archive]

CitizenBBN

06-12-2016, 02:19 PM

And Obama mentions that it's a tragedy. Gun violence and gun control, but can't seem to mention that he is Muslim or has radical Islamic ties.....smh

No surprise he'd be the first to politicize a terror attack and try once again to misdirect it into a question of domestic policy.

FWIW this guy had what they call a "G License", which means he was a state licensed armed security guard. The truth is he'd have had access to firearms with significant firepower simply as a function of his clearance. Even if we banned all "assault rifles" and only allowed them into the hands of those with clearance, he'd have found a way.

Of course Obama never mentions ISIS or his radical ties or his father's videos supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan in some border dispute with Pakistan, etc.

Also no mention of how gays were targeted b/c under Sharia law and in the view of ISIS they are subhumans who should be killed without hesitation.

Pitiful. ISIS is recruiting the lunatic fringe of our nation via our own internet and social media companies and using them to attack us at home, and our President's solution is to debate high capacity magazines.

Doc

06-12-2016, 02:45 PM

my wife will be working on this case. Coincidentally, we were driving thru Orlando as this was happening.

Shooter was from Port St Lucie which is the town just next door to me.

As for Obama's quickness to politicize this, not a shock but he isn't the only one. I'm surprise I haven't seen the required "gun free zone" post yet. But what makes Obama's approach so bothersome is that he picks and chooses. He will make it about guns etc... and ignore the real heart of this one which appears to be the radical religious aspect of it

Doc

06-12-2016, 02:47 PM

It's sounding like this guy was already known to Homeland Security and/or the FBI. Early reports are that he was licensed somehow as a security guard as well, which begs some real questions how he can be licensed in such a way and also suspected of ISIS ties.

Why? Because to exclude him would be "profiling" and "racist"

CitizenBBN

06-12-2016, 03:02 PM

Why? Because to exclude him would be "profiling" and "racist"

no doubt. I'm sure the FBI investigates a number of people they then don't do anything about,but I'll be very curious to see what he did that got him on their radar in the first place.

I don't know the details of the "G license", but it takes 68 hours of training in firearms and the law and such, and I can't imagine it doesn't come with a background check which he apparently passed just fine.

Doc

06-12-2016, 03:04 PM

And Kudos to Bernie for being clueless

"We should not be selling automatic weapons which are designed to kill people, We have got to do everything that we can on top of that to make sure that guns do not fall into the hands of people who should not have them, criminals, people who are mentally ill. So that struggles continues."

Yes, Bernie because this is about guns and automatic weapons rather than a radical islamic jihadist killing gays.

Doc

06-12-2016, 03:06 PM

no doubt. I'm sure the FBI investigates a number of people they then don't do anything about,but I'll be very curious to see what he did that got him on their radar in the first place.

I don't know the details of the "G license", but it takes 68 hours of training in firearms and the law and such, and I can't imagine it doesn't come with a background check which he apparently passed just fine.

That 68 hours of training likely helped him kill or injure over 100 some odd people more effectively.

Catonahottinroof

06-12-2016, 03:06 PM

Now now...he doesn't want to pi$$ off a voting block...

And Kudos to Bernie for being clueless

Yes, Bernie because this is about guns and automatic weapons rather than a radical islamic jihadist killing gays.

Doc

06-12-2016, 03:09 PM

Now now...he doesn't want to pi$$ off a voting block...

If find it interesting that the left is the party most associated with "gay rights" etc... .yet they don't have the stomach to call out those who dispise and apparently have no problem killing gays based solely on where they congregate.

CitizenBBN

06-12-2016, 03:14 PM

If find it interesting that the left is the party most associated with "gay rights" etc... .yet they don't have the stomach to call out those who dispise and apparently have no problem killing gays based solely on where they congregate.

I didn't want to say it, but I agree. You'd think the LGBT community would be the one most up in arms over the rest of the Left's refusal to take ISIS head on an call them out. The radical Islamists are the most anti-gay group in history.

dan_bgblue

06-12-2016, 03:27 PM

Doc

06-12-2016, 03:30 PM

I didn't want to say it, but I agree. You'd think the LGBT community would be the one most up in arms over the rest of the Left's refusal to take ISIS head on an call them out. The radical Islamists are the most anti-gay group in history.

But republicans portray themselves as intolerant of anything that is counter to what they believe, thanks to the "evangelicals". Generally speaking, when it comes to oppression, is there any group worse than the Islamic religion? I mean in some ways these guys are stuck in the stone age

Doc

06-12-2016, 03:32 PM

Saw a few interviews today of people close to some that were injured or killed, and they, everyone of them, said everyone needed to realize that this was not an act of terrorism, but instead should be viewed as a hate crime against gays.

That makes no sense. A hate crime IS an act of terrorism.

Only in the Obama world where definitions are changed for political reasons does killing people based on a belief not fall into the realm of terrorism.

The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"

CitizenBBN

06-12-2016, 03:43 PM

Saw a few interviews today of people close to some that were injured or killed, and they, everyone of them, said everyone needed to realize that this was not an act of terrorism, but instead should be viewed as a hate crime against gays.

B/c they are utterly self absorbed in their politics.

In a way it is a hate crime, it just so happens that radical Islamists hate gays among a whole lot of other groups.

the idea of a "hate crime" is the dumbest thing ever. Every murder is a hate crime. Some are based on race or sexual orientation, but all are hate.

This was an act of terror targeting gays b/c they are seen as subhuman and evil by ISIS and make a nice, soft, high profile target for them in the US and elsewhere. It's probably seen as insulting to them that Gay Pride month is the same as Ramadan.

CitizenBBN

06-12-2016, 03:57 PM

But republicans portray themselves as intolerant of anything that is counter to what they believe, thanks to the "evangelicals". Generally speaking, when it comes to oppression, is there any group worse than the Islamic religion? I mean in some ways these guys are stuck in the stone age

They make the craziest evangelicals (like the anti-gay camp folks) look like hippies.

IMO they are precisely stuck in the stone age, or specifically the pre-Renaissance period of the West. They are feudal in their thinking, living in the world of the Inquisition and the Crusades at best.

while not as radical, even movements here in the US to impose Sharia law in certain enclaves is an outrage IMO, not b/c it is different but b/c Sharia law violates the basic principles of the US belief system and Constitution.

Christians who believe being gay is a sin do not call for those gay people to be imprisoned for being gay, or be stoned or otherwise punished. They simply believe it is a sin. They may not want their families exposed to it, but I haven't seen calls for them to be persecuted for it, simply not have those things imposed on them. Sharia and certainly ISIS absolutely calls for gay people to be punished, usually horrible ways.

ISIS and those who follow that version of Sharia are simply living in a world the rest of the planet starting coming out of nearly 1,000 years ago. They want to turn back the clock, under pain of death.

kingcat

06-12-2016, 04:11 PM

"President Barack Obama called the shooting an "act of terror" and an "act of hate" targeting a place of "solidarity and empowerment" for gays and lesbians"
(http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/50-slain-in-gay-nightclub-worst-mass-shooting-in-us-history/ar-AAgW3Wb?ocid=spartanntp)

bigsky

06-12-2016, 04:39 PM

Some perspective on the early morning Islamic terror attack: a list of countries where established religion in the civil government leads to the death penalty for homosexuality. I'm not seeing but one religion implicated. The Excuser-in-Chief has done everything he can to avoid the obvious, Muslim countries kill gays, muslim terrorists kill gays, muslim extremist groups like ISIS kill gays. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/02/24/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death/

PedroDaGr8

06-12-2016, 05:25 PM

A white male was also arrested today with multiple weapons and explosives heading to the LA Gay Pride parade, with the intent to harm the parade. Thankfully, that gentleman was arrested before he did anything or today could have been twice as bad.

CitizenBBN

06-12-2016, 07:19 PM

Apparently he was a follower of a radical cleric in the US who is a former marine who became a radical Islamic leader here in the US. He was jailed on tax fraud and weapons charges w a 10 year sentence, judge let him out in 4 and didn't tack on extra years for terror related activities.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/12/orlando-gunman-tied-to-radical-imam-released-from-prison-last-year-say-law-enforcement-sources.html?intcmp=hpbt1

Prosecutors warned this guy would recruit people to commit radical acts, judge let him out anyway for lack of evidence.

Maybe this is why the shooter was on the FBI's radar.

dan_bgblue

06-12-2016, 07:42 PM

I am sure his claims of innocence on all those terror conspiracy issues and recruiting/radicalizing others are true. I mean a judge believed him.:Christz_pillepalle:

Doc

06-12-2016, 07:45 PM

We were actually driving thru Orlando last PM as it was happening. We were on our way home from Arizona, on a 35 hour non stop death death drive. Was listening to Fox Radio when they came on about a shooting in Orlando but I figured it was a replay of an earlier announcement.

Now a couple points. While the left will likely make this a "gun issue", its not. He obtained the guns legally, had a background check, etc.... Second, as best can be told, he isn't a psycho so any type of psychological evaluation wasn't going to pick him up. Third, the candidate should tread lightly to avoid making themselves look like opportunist (esp Trump who has a tendency to stick his foot into his mouth). I hope the left continues to follow the course they are because they will come out looking foolish on this.

CitizenBBN

06-12-2016, 07:58 PM

Doc, yes Trump needs to make some calls to go after ISIS, and then get out of the way and let the other side dig their own hole.

That's trump's biggest weakness, he doesn't know when to let someone shoot themselves in the foot without him getting near it.

I will note that this guy apparently beat his first wife. She got out and got divorced, but had she reported the abuse it's possible he would have been unable to buy guns legally. But if anything it highlights the challenges of just running the system we have now properly, not the need for a new one.

Catonahottinroof

06-12-2016, 08:03 PM

He had been on a terror watch list at a prior time. I'm surprised he was able to obtain a gun without this item coming to light.

We were actually driving thru Orlando last PM as it was happening. We were on our way home from Arizona, on a 35 hour non stop death death drive. Was listening to Fox Radio when they came on about a shooting in Orlando but I figured it was a replay of an earlier announcement.

Now a couple points. While the left will likely make this a "gun issue", its not. He obtained the guns legally, had a background check, etc.... Second, as best can be told, he isn't a psycho so any type of psychological evaluation wasn't going to pick him up. Third, the candidate should tread lightly to avoid making themselves look like opportunist (esp Trump who has a tendency to stick his foot into his mouth). I hope the left continues to follow the course they are because they will come out looking foolish on this.

CitizenBBN

06-12-2016, 08:32 PM

He had been on a terror watch list at a prior time. I'm surprised he was able to obtain a gun without this item coming to light.

I'm not privy to the deep secrets of NICS, but afaik being on the watch list isn't a known legal reason for denial. It may be in the NICS database, but if it is it's a secret, and the law hasn't been changed to make it that way. The reasons for denial are specified in the Gun Control Act of 1968 as amended, and would need an act of Congress presumably to change the criteria.

BTW, i wholeheartedly support such a change.

suncat05

06-13-2016, 08:35 AM

1) I hold both "D" and "G" licenses here in Florida, in addition to my law enforcement/corrections certifications. In addition to my Florida concealed carry permit. I don't have to go through all of the requirements for the D or G or the CCP outside of my paying the necessary fees and submitting to fingerprinting due to my military training and my law enforcement training. Everything else is waived due to previous training and background checks conducted on me.
2) I have a good friend who was on scene at the house in Port St. Lucie. I can't divulge what I was told, but it's not good.
3) The federal government is not and will not protect us against this terrorism. And I don't care what the FBI or DHS says, all they're going to do is follow orders, which, right now, lessens the lives of all Americans everywhere because the U. S. government refuses to protect t us.
Face it boys & girls...........we're on our own as far as protecting ourselves and our families. Our government just refuses to do its duty as prescribed by the Constitution.

PedroDaGr8

06-13-2016, 09:14 AM

I'm not privy to the deep secrets of NICS, but afaik being on the watch list isn't a known legal reason for denial. It may be in the NICS database, but if it is it's a secret, and the law hasn't been changed to make it that way. The reasons for denial are specified in the Gun Control Act of 1968 as amended, and would need an act of Congress presumably to change the criteria.

BTW, i wholeheartedly support such a change.

You support banning people on the Terrorist Watch list from owning guns or am I misunderstanding you? This list which has been almost as problematic as the No-Fly List (we all know the problems here), Sexual Predator Lists (there is no way that someone who took a piss in the bushes deserves the same treatment as someone that raped a kid), and others? Just recently I read an article about a family trying to get their three year old removed from the Terrorist Watch List. Considering, this administration, and the lasts, proclivity to label people that disagree with the government as terrorists I just can't agree with the idea of using this faulty list as a reason to bar someone from a fundamental right.

suncat05

06-13-2016, 10:06 AM

The guy worked for the Geo Group, which has domestic and international security contracts in a lot of places. To get those D & G licenses he had to pass some kind of background check. And he was a native born American anyway, not foreign born as first reported. But to get that job and qualify for any clearances he would have had to go through some trainings that are federally, state and company mandated. So of course he was qualified to own and buy any commercially available firearms.
As far as being on or not being on any watch lists, in that regard, he was not currently on any list, but possibly had been prior. Cause for concern, absolutely. But if he wasn't deemed a threat, then life goes on. Of course, as I stated before, and have said many times here, the U.S. government is not concerned with OUR SAFETY AS AMERICANS so much as they are with protecting guys like this. Under this current administration our safety means nothing, while we bring in thousands and thousands of unvetted people from the Middle East under the guise of them supposedly seeking refuge from terrorists.
But hey, what do we know? We're just the Americans that this Islamists jihadi trash wants to kill while our own government looks the other way.

CitizenBBN

06-13-2016, 12:05 PM

You support banning people on the Terrorist Watch list from owning guns or am I misunderstanding you? This list which has been almost as problematic as the No-Fly List (we all know the problems here), Sexual Predator Lists (there is no way that someone who took a piss in the bushes deserves the same treatment as someone that raped a kid), and others? Just recently I read an article about a family trying to get their three year old removed from the Terrorist Watch List. Considering, this administration, and the lasts, proclivity to label people that disagree with the government as terrorists I just can't agree with the idea of using this faulty list as a reason to bar someone from a fundamental right.

yes the list is flawed and my choice would be to create a separate list that is maintained with an actual gatekeeper in the judicial system and those people on that list are deemed too high risk to purchase firearms.

is it 100% fair in that sense? No, but the current preclusion based on domestic violence also has a lot of problems with it, but we've decided that it's better to deal with those flaws than to allow people who may be domestic abusers direct purchase access to firearms.

Now, do I think it will make much difference? ONLY if ATF/FBI gets their act together and uses the instant background check system properly. Specifically, when someone who is on that list goes to try to get a firearm that should set off a red siren somewhere and they need to go and directly investigate that person. Right now when felons try to buy a gun and get flagged by NICS there is no action taken to pursue that person, despite the fact that they almost assuredly just committed another felony by lying on the 4473 form.

In my view a person would be adjudicated not of a crime but of "ties to a terror organization" or some such, and if so adjudicated yes they are on the list and are restricted in several ways. yes that's a dangerous path to walk, but the only two alternatives are to a) live with this kind of ongoing terrorism in the US as there are no doubt tens of thousands of radicalized people living in the country, or b) make such associations a full blown crime and start trampling a whole lot more of the Bill of Rights.

We had the same basic problem with the 1950s Communist movement, but the difference was that while being a Communist might be seen as subversive, they weren't murdering people in cold blood. There's no basis to take away someone's Constitutional rights b/c they are a Communist, but I'm starting to seriously question it for those tied to this radical movement.

This guy apparently spewed this hate filled crap for a while, people knew about it, he would have already been disqualified had his first wife reported her abuse, his dad apparently thinks he's the rightful ruler of Afghanistan. Maybe we need to start looking at what we allow someone with that world view to do.

I agree it's disturbing, but we have no vehicle for deporting US born citizens with these proclivities either, and that's exactly what we'd do if they were foreign nationals.

Trump is wrong for wanting to ban all Muslims, but he's not wrong to highlight the fact that we have a real threat here and one that is not easily identified and thus will slip through the cracks in our current system with relative impunity.

CitizenBBN

06-13-2016, 12:08 PM

FWIW, you are a restricted person for gun purchases even if you have a restraining order against you. At one time those were tough to get, but now judges hand them out with great regularity and without much due process. A woman can make that claim and get a restraining order on just about anyone, and boom your guns are gone.

So we already have ares in which the bar is pretty low and devoid of an actual conviction. that's not all good, and I hate those policy slippery slopes, but that is where the laws stand as of now.

UKHistory

06-13-2016, 12:09 PM

CitizenBBN

06-13-2016, 12:17 PM

Pedro, there's also one other angle to this.

If we don't do something, there will be more and more pressure to start banning classes of guns and taking other actions, and that will restrict the rights of ALL Americans b/c we aren't willing to examine restricting the rights of people who have shown to be a high risk to others through their radical beliefs and associations.

I'm not keen on either outcome, but in an imperfect world I'm not sure what else we do to address it. I seriously doubt people will simply accept these kinds of incidents without some kind of action on the part of the government to prevent them, and that action could end up being a lot worse for our rights than the option I outlined.

Catonahottinroof

06-13-2016, 01:02 PM

What I find laughable is that banning of this weapon would have prevented this. McVeigh used fertilizer, the 9/11 crew used box cutters and someone who is about to commit capital murder as many times as he can is not going to comply with a gun law, or any other law between him and his criminal objective.

Doc

06-13-2016, 01:24 PM

This nutjob graduated from Martin County HS which is a block from my office. My son is districted for that school but we send him to another school. He has a 4 year old child (the shooter, not my son).

As stated above, the GOP and gun advocates need to just shut up on this one for now and let Obama and crew shoot themselves in the foot for now (no pun intended). Let them go with the "gun argument" for a few days then make them look stupid because this isn't a gun issue. They want it to be one because it take the message away from the real issue which is terrorism, something Obama is woefully inadequately addressed. Let the left spend energy politicizing this about gun control then counter punch with terrorism because THAT is the issue. Making this a gun issue falls into their trap.......again.

Additionally, the GOP should use this as a means to reach out to the gay community in an election year.

Doc

06-13-2016, 01:25 PM

Doc

06-13-2016, 01:32 PM

KeithKSR

06-13-2016, 04:13 PM

KeithKSR

06-13-2016, 04:32 PM

BTW, watching the news last night one of the idiot Dems (Congressman from Florida?) made an absurd comment that Mateen used an automatic weapon that fired 700 rounds in a minute. That rate of fire with 34 mag swaps, if using 20 round mags, isn't possible.

Another idiot said that the semiautomatic AR-15 is easily convertible to full auto, you just have to google to get easy instructions. The M-16 isn't full auto to begin with, and the internals aren't all that similar.

Idiots confuse the masses who are ignorant and deceive them.

CitizenBBN

06-13-2016, 07:02 PM

As one with Libertarian leanings I am not for the restricting of rights of others as a general rule. The problem with the DHS lists is that it is too easy for government Abuse to occur. Obama considers all right wing conservatives to be extremists. I could easily see him abusing a law that would disqualify those that appear on any kind of list from gun ownership.

Like I said I'd want the list to be nothing more than a list of people adjudicated as a threat, not put there by bureaucrats. I'm not keen on it even then, but I'm not sure what else we do.

Do we expand the laws to basically bring back the terrorist version of sedition as a crime? The problem is these people aren't guilty of anything till they go out and kill a bunch of people. That's true of any criminal though, and then we're back to just living with these attacks.

I'm completely open to suggestions, b/c I don't really like any of mine.

PedroDaGr8

06-13-2016, 08:48 PM

yes the list is flawed and my choice would be to create a separate list that is maintained with an actual gatekeeper in the judicial system and those people on that list are deemed too high risk to purchase firearms.

is it 100% fair in that sense? No, but the current preclusion based on domestic violence also has a lot of problems with it, but we've decided that it's better to deal with those flaws than to allow people who may be domestic abusers direct purchase access to firearms.

This is a very different scenario, that what it appeared you were originally proposing. I would be perfectly fine with your scenario if 1) there is judicial oversight 2) people can check to see if they are on the list and 3) they have means to be removed from the list if errors occur like same name, wrong target etc.

FWIW, you are a restricted person for gun purchases even if you have a restraining order against you. At one time those were tough to get, but now judges hand them out with great regularity and without much due process. A woman can make that claim and get a restraining order on just about anyone, and boom your guns are gone.

So we already have ares in which the bar is pretty low and devoid of an actual conviction. that's not all good, and I hate those policy slippery slopes, but that is where the laws stand as of now.

Thankfully, there is getting to be a judicial backlash against this practice, as many are now adopting "keep away or no contact orders" instead of restraining orders. They are less serious and have less negative effects.

Unfortunately you are giving examples of government screwups rather than the norms.

It is the screwups which are the important cases. Otherwise, everything the government does is amazing.

As one with Libertarian leanings I am not for the restricting of rights of others as a general rule. The problem with the DHS lists is that it is too easy for government Abuse to occur. Obama considers all right wing conservatives to be extremists. I could easily see him abusing a law that would disqualify those that appear on any kind of list from gun ownership.

This is the same fear I have, without some sort of oversight, it becomes VERY easy to label people terrorists just because you don't like what they say. We already see the police, FBI and current administrations using the terrorist designator for people that they don't like. Terrorism has ALREADY been used to strip away large swaths of essential liberties. Each step takes us further and further along that path.

Doc

06-13-2016, 10:29 PM

PedroDaGr8

06-14-2016, 06:05 AM

PedroDaGr8

06-14-2016, 06:28 AM

Saw this quote that kinda sums things up:

He was like Clayton Bigsby on steroids. A heterosexually-married gay muslim democrat who was also a racist, homophobic, wife-beating, legal gun owner who dreamed of being in the NYPD/Hezbollah/Al Qaeda and ISIS. You can't make this **** up.

Clayton Bigsby of course being the Dave Chapelle character of the black white supremacist.

Krank

06-14-2016, 08:21 AM

http://new.www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/an-open-letter-to-straight-people-on-the-pulse-massacre_us_575eb41de4b053e2197933bf

suncat05

06-14-2016, 10:42 AM

I didn't see or hear but idiot congressman would be Bill Nelson.

Idiot Senator. Same-same. And an Obama accolyte, in addition to being a Democrat obstructionist.

KeithKSR

06-14-2016, 11:10 AM

http://new.www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/an-open-letter-to-straight-people-on-the-pulse-massacre_us_575eb41de4b053e2197933bf

All terrorism is due to the hate of a group of people for some reason or other. It wasn't society that committed the terrible acts in Orlando, is was a specific individual supporting groups known for such acts.

KeithKSR

06-14-2016, 11:11 AM

I didn't see or hear but idiot congressman would be Bill Nelson.

He was one of the two.

UKHistory

06-14-2016, 11:12 AM

Saw this quote that kinda sums things up:

Clayton Bigsby of course being the Dave Chapelle character of the black white supremacist.

The layers to this massacre are unreal. If the situation was not tragic I could laugh at the Clayton remark.

Doc

06-14-2016, 12:11 PM

He was one of the two.

In FL, we have our fair share. We got Alan Grayson (no relationship to Grayson Allen--who is also from FL) who is famous for saying the Republican health plan was "don't get sick," and "if you do get sick, die quickly." And of course there is the queen political progressive hack Debbie Wasserman Schultz who ironically has the initials DWS and shares the last name of the famous Sargent Schultz, best known for

http://www.statefansnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Sgt1.jpg

KSRBEvans

06-14-2016, 12:25 PM

It has emerged that the shooter was a regular at the club, meeting guys, getting drunk and using gay dating apps like Grindr. He also claimed allegiance to Hezbollah, Al Qaeda and ISIS. Not realizing that those three are more or less mortal enemies of each other. He also was not really a practicing Muslim according to his friends. He didn't pray 5 times a day, ate pork, drank alcohol, etc.

The picture that emerges is beginning to look like a gay man in denial (you know the stereotype, some of the biggest homophobes are actually gay men in denial), combined with a psychopath, attempting to attach himself to one of these groups, not because he believes in the cause, but because he wants his move to be part of something greater and/or he believes that these movements give a degree of validity to the psychopathy he feels. So it isn't so much he self radicalized as much as it is, he found an outlet for the psychopathic tendencies and self-hatred that he felt. They justified his internal feelings and gave him delusions of greatness so he attached himself to them.

Basically, he was a gay man in denial and a psychopath. He attached himself to these groups not out of a misguided sense of devotion to Islam, but because they confirmed his own internal self-hatred and psychopathy. They validated his feelings, which is why he attached himself to ALL of them.

Not that it makes this tragedy any better, but it is certainly painting a much more complex picture.

He was probably a conflicted gay man. He was also an ISIS sympathizer and wanted to carry out killings in their name. I know we all probably realize it, but the 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

He had also cased out other potential shooting spots, such as Disney Springs (f/k/a Downtown Disney) and Disney parks (http://www.people.com/article/omar-mateen-disney-world-scouted-attacks), in the past couple of months. IMHO he chose the Pulse not because of his conflicted feelings, but because it was a softer target than Disney Springs (where, among other factors, he couldn't be sure there wouldn't be someone carrying concealed) or one of the Disney Parks (where security checks bags and now has metal detectors).

suncat05

06-14-2016, 12:27 PM

Doc, I am hearing grumblings of Alan Grayson running for Marco Rubio's Senate seat. Him winning that seat just cannot happen. Of course, all of his idiot followers in the near Orlando area will vote for him because they're as stupid as he is.

Krank

06-14-2016, 01:50 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-hypocrisy-of-the-religious-rights-lgbt-islamist_us_576019bae4b072d1185b1a04

UKHistory

06-14-2016, 02:16 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/politics/noor-zahi-salman-omar-mateen.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

The layers to this story continue. The FBI is interviewing the current wife (not the first who was physically beaten). This woman apparently drove Mateen to the club if I read it correctly.

Still sorting out her role, if any, and what she might have known.

Krank

06-14-2016, 02:27 PM

All terrorism is due to the hate of a group of people for some reason or other. It wasn't society that committed the terrible acts in Orlando, is was a specific individual supporting groups known for such acts.

An Open Letter To Straight People On The Pulse Massacre

"Less than one year ago, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled same-sex marriage legal across the country, finalizing a trend that began eleven years earlier in Massachusetts. Less than three days ago, over 50 people were murdered at Pulse, a gay night club in Orlando, in what is now the biggest mass shooting to occur in the United States. And it happened during our LGBT Pride Month.

Some of you may think that the LGBTQ+ battle is over, that it ended with the triumphant legalization of same-sex marriage. Some of you may even think that the LGBTQ+ community has been greedy and overreaching by “infringing” upon the “rights of the majority” — rights LGBTQ+ folks continue to be denied...

...As a whole, us humans like to distance ourselves from the past when it is ugly. We like to convince ourselves that we’ve reached some sort of fairy-tale ending, so that no one has has to deal with feelings of guilt or accountability. This kind of thinking is not new...

...We do this so we can wash our hands of the atrocities committed in our country on a daily basis. We do it so that when things like this horrific shooting happen we can chalk it up to an extremist madman instead of acknowledging that many of us played a role in shaping the culture needed for this type of crime to occur.

This kind of approach is easy and it’s comfortable, but it’s beyond dangerous. It does not fix the situation at all; it simply perpetuates the cycles of violence in place...

...The reality is that LGBTQ+ people are still discriminated against and victimized on a daily basis. Same-sex marriage does not change that and you cannot expect us to conveniently forget the past as some sort of payment for the rite of marriage. This mass shooting was not an isolated event, or remnants of antiquated homophobia, or just religious extremism. It stemmed from the very real homophobic culture that exists in our country — the culture many of us contribute to whether we’d like to admit it or not.

If you are a person who believes “tolerance” is enough, you are contributing to the problem. You don’t need to beat up an LGBTQ+ person to commit a hate crime or encourage another person to do so. If you misgender Caitlyn Jenner, say problematic and incorrect things about bathroom equality, cringe at the thought of gay affection, or use phrases like “no homo” or “that’s so gay” you are contributing to the culture that fostered this crime...

...If you are an ally, you must be an active ally and truly combat homophobia and transphobia when you see it. This means calling someone out when they say something hurtful or ugly. It means caring more about what you feel is right than what other people think of you. It means not tokenizing LGBTQ+ people, or dismissing their struggles, or spouting “liberal” thoughts just to score social brownie points. The LGBTQ+ community does not need to be patronized. What we need is for people to stand up for what is right.

The LGBTQ+ community is one of the most resilient groups in the world. We are full of vibrant survivors who continue to be joyous and loving in spite of the ugly battles behind us and ahead. The shooting at Pulse was an attack on LGBTQ+ love, an attack meant to break us, but the truth is we can never be broken. We have suffered through and survived too much to be destroyed, but at the same time just because we can withstand the worst of storms does not mean we should be subjected to them...

...We shouldn’t have to live in a world where our love is questioned and dismissed. We shouldn’t have to live knowing that many of our community members are on the streets or in the cemetery. And we shouldn’t have to live in a world where we have to mourn the deaths of fifty of our brothers and sisters. Because we deserve better from our government, from our society, and from you. Because we shouldn’t have to say 'it gets better.' We should be able to say 'it is better.'”

suncat05

06-14-2016, 02:32 PM

She "knew", but didn't say anything? That makes her part of the problem. And very possibly an unwitting accessory to the crime. Or perhaps not so unwitting?

Krank

06-14-2016, 02:59 PM

http://time.com/4368570/orlando-shooting-pulse-survivors/

Krank

06-14-2016, 03:15 PM

http://www.newsweek.com/no-doubt-about-motivation-orlando-attack-470068

"We should be in no doubt about what the motivation was for the tragic events in Orlando.

And yet, over the past few days, as people try to make sense of this attack, there has been a reaching for reassurance that there was a cause, a reason, that we as a society can point a finger at something that could make such violence possible.

Homophobia, biphobia and transphobia as an answer, for some, seemed too simple an explanation. Or, perhaps, too unpleasant to think about. Yes, this was an act of terror, but we must accept that the reason that this attack happened exactly where it happened was because of hatred toward lesbian, gay, bi and trans people. There is no denying that this was a homophobic hate crime...

...The truth is that this horrific hate crime won’t come as a surprise to LGBT people. Only last year, the wife of one of my colleagues was viciously attacked for dressing outside of her gender norms—she wore a tie. Whether you see it or not, lesbian, gay, bi and trans people are still attacked and ostracized every day for no other reason than they are who they are.

More than 100 hate crimes are committed against LGBT people every week. Hatred toward and discrimination against trans people is also rife, and so much goes unreported.

In more than half the world LGBT people may not be protected against workplace discrimination and in 73 countries around the world sex with someone of the same sex is illegal...

...I would suggest that the reason there has been such reluctance to accept that this attack was motivated by homophobic, biphobic and transphobic attitudes is because we then have to accept the truly unpalatable. That homophobia, biphobia and transphobia is very much alive and well, and we know this. It exists in our workplaces, our schools and in our communities, and quite often it goes unchallenged. And while it might not lead people to commit acts of violence, it is still acceptable to be abusive toward LGBT people.

Homophobic comments are made and sometimes this abuse isn’t greeted with shock but laughter. Children still use the taunt of ‘that’s so gay’ and people turn a deaf ear.

Role models in our communities make hateful statements about the LGBT community, and we nominate them for awards.

It’s still acceptable to be homophobic and it is truly sobering and sad that it takes a tragedy like this to bring this to everyone’s attention...

...The lesbian, gay, bi and trans community is strong, beautiful and wonderfully diverse. We will continue to stand tall and support one another with love, kindness and open arms.

Please join us in doing so. Stand by the side of all LGBT people everywhere, and recognise the specific forms of discrimination that many of them face, whether it’s as a result of disability, gender identity, ethnicity or indeed faith. Many LGBT Muslims are feeling particularly vulnerable in the wake of the Orlando attack, as some people continue to claim that faith committed this heinous crime. It didn’t. An individual did.

Let’s also not forget to love, embrace, support and look out for one another. This is an extremely dark time for lesbian, gay, bi and trans people around the world, but we must look towards a brighter future."

Doc

06-14-2016, 04:45 PM

[I]An Open Letter To Straight People On The Pulse Massacre

That's all well and good, sounds great coming from one of the LEAST TOLERANT group to folks of differing opinions. They are more than happy to attempt to run a businessman who DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE against gays in his hiring or who he offers his services to out of business as they attempted to do with Chic-fil-a owner Daniel Cathy who PERSONAL opposition to same sex marriage but DID NOT discriminate on a business level. They viciously attacked him for his personal beliefs simply because they were not the same as theirs even though he didn't discriminate in any way.

And this letter is a perfect example of narcissism at its finest . This was an attack by an INDIVIDUAL. While many disagree with the life style on a personal level, I know few short of those in the Westboro Baptist Church and their ilk who believe that the gay community should be exterminated. In fact this tragedy hos shown exactly the OPPOSITE. There has been a general and worldwide outpouring of support. But don't let that stop the gay community from using it as a platform to take the actions of ONE INDIVIDUAL and use it to paint with a broad brush. Is the gay community discriminated against? Sure but ALL groups are to some degree.

This was the act of ONE individual who was acting under the influence of a religious sect that has no tolerance for homosexuality. That religious sect has an agenda to destroy this country due to our support of Israel. In general, that religion is oppressive on many level and not just towards the LGBT community.

Krank

06-14-2016, 05:08 PM

That's all well and good, sounds great coming from one of the LEAST TOLERANT group to folks of differing opinions. They are more than happy to attempt to run a businessman who DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE against gays in his hiring or who he offers his services to out of business as they attempted to do with Chic-fil-a owner Daniel Cathy who PERSONAL opposition to same sex marriage but DID NOT discriminate on a business level. They viciously attacked him for his personal beliefs simply because they were not the same as theirs even though he didn't discriminate in any way.

And this letter is a perfect example of narcissism at its finest . This was an attack by an INDIVIDUAL. While many disagree with the life style on a personal level, I know few short of those in the Westboro Baptist Church and their ilk who believe that the gay community should be exterminated. In fact this tragedy hos shown exactly the OPPOSITE. There has been a general and worldwide outpouring of support. But don't let that stop the gay community from using it as a platform to take the actions of ONE INDIVIDUAL and use it to paint with a broad brush. Is the gay community discriminated against? Sure but ALL groups are to some degree.

This was the act of ONE individual who was acting under the influence of a religious sect that has no tolerance for homosexuality. That religious sect has an agenda to destroy this country due to our support of Israel. In general, that religion is oppressive on many level and not just towards the LGBT community.

The reality is that LGBTQ+ people are still discriminated against and victimized on a daily basis. Same-sex marriage does not change that and you cannot expect us to conveniently forget the past as some sort of payment for the rite of marriage. This mass shooting was not an isolated event, or remnants of antiquated homophobia, or just religious extremism. It stemmed from the very real homophobic culture that exists in our country — the culture many of us contribute to whether we’d like to admit it or not.

If you are a person who believes “tolerance” is enough, you are contributing to the problem.

Krank

06-14-2016, 05:25 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gay-community-reels-after-orlando-we-are-really-suffering-right-now-184632060.html?nhp=1

Doc

06-14-2016, 05:27 PM

The reality is that LGBTQ+ people are still discriminated against and victimized on a daily basis. Same-sex marriage does not change that and you cannot expect us to conveniently forget the past as some sort of payment for the rite of marriage. This mass shooting was not an isolated event, or remnants of antiquated homophobia, or just religious extremism. It stemmed from the very real homophobic culture that exists in our country — the culture many of us contribute to whether we’d like to admit it or not.

If you are a person who believes “tolerance” is enough, you are contributing to the problem.

Every person in this nation can claim discrimination to some degree.

I'm not contributing to the problem because I don't care one way or the other. It makes ZERO difference to me. Now if the LGBT community had the same opinion about my opinion then I'd be fine. See me being indifferent isn't enough. I have to SUPPORT their point of view. So IMO, yes, TOLERANCE IS ENOUGH. I don't ask the LGBT community to come out and support my causes...and if they don't I don't threaten to destroy their businesses. That's where we differ.

Krank

06-14-2016, 05:37 PM

Every person in this nation can claim discrimination to some degree.

I'm not contributing to the problem because I don't care one way or the other. It makes ZERO difference to me. Now if the LGBT community had the same opinion about my opinion then I'd be fine. See me being indifferent isn't enough. I have to SUPPORT their point of view. So IMO, yes, TOLERANCE IS ENOUGH. I don't ask the LGBT community to come out and support my causes...and if they don't I don't threaten to destroy their businesses. That's where we differ.

http://www.newsweek.com/no-doubt-about-motivation-orlando-attack-470068

"The truth is that this horrific hate crime won’t come as a surprise to LGBT people. Only last year, the wife of one of my colleagues was viciously attacked for dressing outside of her gender norms—she wore a tie. Whether you see it or not, lesbian, gay, bi and trans people are still attacked and ostracized every day for no other reason than they are who they are.

More than 100 hate crimes are committed against LGBT people every week. Hatred toward and discrimination against trans people is also rife, and so much goes unreported.

In more than half the world LGBT people may not be protected against workplace discrimination and in 73 countries around the world sex with someone of the same sex is illegal.

Trans laws are lagging woefully behind, both in the U.K. and abroad. And it shows in the hate crime statistics. Up to a third of trans people experience anti-trans abuse every year (Galop, 2014). Transphobic hate crime has risen every year for the past four years.

I would suggest that the reason there has been such reluctance to accept that this attack was motivated by homophobic, biphobic and transphobic attitudes is because we then have to accept the truly unpalatable. That homophobia, biphobia and transphobia is very much alive and well, and we know this. It exists in our workplaces, our schools and in our communities, and quite often it goes unchallenged. And while it might not lead people to commit acts of violence, it is still acceptable to be abusive toward LGBT people...

...The lesbian, gay, bi and trans community is strong, beautiful and wonderfully diverse. We will continue to stand tall and support one another with love, kindness and open arms.

Please join us in doing so. Stand by the side of all LGBT people everywhere, and recognise the specific forms of discrimination that many of them face, whether it’s as a result of disability, gender identity, ethnicity or indeed faith. Many LGBT Muslims are feeling particularly vulnerable in the wake of the Orlando attack, as some people continue to claim that faith committed this heinous crime. It didn’t. An individual did."

KeithKSR

06-14-2016, 06:31 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-hypocrisy-of-the-religious-rights-lgbt-islamist_us_576019bae4b072d1185b1a04

Garbage like that is why one should never read the Huff-Post. Stuff like that only serves to sway the ignorant.

KeithKSR

06-14-2016, 06:37 PM

http://time.com/4368570/orlando-shooting-pulse-survivors/

The article doesn't do his words justice. I watched the presser live and his story is haunting.

KeithKSR

06-14-2016, 06:43 PM

Krank

06-14-2016, 07:47 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/13/gop-homophobes-suddenly-find-a-use-for-gays.html

CitizenBBN

06-14-2016, 07:48 PM

http://new.www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/an-open-letter-to-straight-people-on-the-pulse-massacre_us_575eb41de4b053e2197933bf

I'm curious of your opinion on that piece.

I found this striking: If you are a person who believes “tolerance” is enough, you are contributing to the problem.

I ran that through my universal political translator, and it says "if you don't accept and embrace everything we do and believe then you are a problem, so you must abandon your beliefs and embrace ours."

Honestly I find that to be about as self absorbed as you can get. I have no doubt gay people face persecution and discrimination, and I'm fine calling that out and debating it and addressing it, but the idea that anyone who simply, fundamentally, in their own belief system, disagrees is somehow a "problem", is an affront to the basic principles of individual liberty in this country.

I have news for him. For the entire history of this country we've disagreed on social norms and behaviors, and the way it has worked is we are all free to do things as we please and we do NOT have to adopt the ways of others.

Personally I'm very comfortable around the LGBT community, though I think the idea that there are 31 "gender identities" is nothing more than self-absorbed tripe, but just b/c I'm comfortable with it doesn't mean everyone has to be. So long as they don't impose on the rights of a gay person to do as he/she pleases that's all the obligation they have in this social contract.

CitizenBBN

06-14-2016, 08:00 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/13/gop-homophobes-suddenly-find-a-use-for-gays.html

To me calling someone a "homophobe" when they have not exhibited anything more than disagreement with a cause or social agenda tells you a lot. the same way someone who doesn't support welfare is called a racist or is against the poor.

I actually pointed out here long ago in a post that the gay community should be one of the groups most loudly demanding we do something about ISIS and radical Islam, as they are persecuting gays in a very stone age way, simply murdering them in the streets.

I agree this is a political move to drive a wedge into the Left with the LGBT community, but that doesn't make the point any less valid. For all the bluster about the rights of gays and women and the need to spread social justice throughout the world in places like Africa, we are doing damned little to spread some justice to protect those groups where they are being treated by far the worst.

ISIS and the Taliban and the other extremist groups are the most anti-women, anti-gay, anti-liberty group maybe in the modern era. They are every bit the equivalent of the Nazis or the Japanese militarists in China. For a Left, a group that by and large has complained about every injustice on earth, they are oddly quiet on a policy towards ISIS that seems to be mostly just hoping they grow old and get bored with it and die off.

Many high profile Hollywood types have come out against Israel, in support of a Palestinian Authority who actively condones killing civilians, but have said nary a word about a group that murders gays as a matter of policy and is operating an open market in female slavery.

when the Academy Awards get hijacked routinely to talk about the situation in Tibet or some other far off land, I wonder why no one has lamented the horrible nightmare that is living in ISIS occupied territory. I bet every person in that area would gladly relocate to Tibet.

I agree this is politics, but it does have a point. The LGBT community thus far has done more to blame conservatives and gun advocates and even just average Americans than they have to blame the messages of ISIS and other radical Muslim leaders including those in this country or the policies of an Administration that have allowed those messages to continue unabated.

Krank

06-14-2016, 08:00 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/see-evolution-american-flag-1-173023547.html?nhp=1

CitizenBBN

06-14-2016, 08:04 PM

Krank, many of these pieces you have linked seems to place the blame for the attack in Orlando at the feet of society. I don't see this as an attack on the LGBT community, I see this an attack on Americans by a radical Islamist seeking to take out as many unarmed Americans as possible.

He picked out gays b/c of some probable deep persona issues but also b/c a big part of the radical Islamic agenda is to persecute gays. they have actively called for killing them. This isn't a problem with society, this is a problem with letting radical leaders run around calling for murder and convincing insane people to go do it.

CitizenBBN

06-14-2016, 08:05 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/see-evolution-american-flag-1-173023547.html?nhp=1

As an aside, I have a 30 star kentucky state flag I'm going to auction. Ought to be quite a piece, we're doing authentication on it now.

CitizenBBN

06-14-2016, 08:11 PM

Many LGBT Muslims are feeling particularly vulnerable in the wake of the Orlando attack, as some people continue to claim that faith committed this heinous crime. It didn’t. An individual did."

Sadly, it is one segment of a faith that certainly encouraged this.

I have a feeling if the Southern Baptists started calling for the murder of gays in order to save them, and then someone who went to one of those churches and heard those calls to murder gays went out and did it, the LGBT community wouldn't be so forgiving.

it is a faith that must be quashed by the much larger Muslim majority who do not accept their interpretation, just as all Christians must stand up to the Westboro Baptist Church and their hate speech towards gays and Jews and others. I don't accept that either speak for the majority who are part of the broader religion, but to deny they are doing what they are doing b/c of their faith and beliefs is to twist the English language. They are doing it b/c they believe their religion calls them to do it, they're just deeply wrong and in a very small minority of their broader faith.

CitizenBBN

06-14-2016, 08:14 PM

That's all well and good, sounds great coming from one of the LEAST TOLERANT group to folks of differing opinions. They are more than happy to attempt to run a businessman who DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE against gays in his hiring or who he offers his services to out of business as they attempted to do with Chic-fil-a owner Daniel Cathy who PERSONAL opposition to same sex marriage but DID NOT discriminate on a business level. They viciously attacked him for his personal beliefs simply because they were not the same as theirs even though he didn't discriminate in any way.

And this letter is a perfect example of narcissism at its finest . This was an attack by an INDIVIDUAL. While many disagree with the life style on a personal level, I know few short of those in the Westboro Baptist Church and their ilk who believe that the gay community should be exterminated. In fact this tragedy hos shown exactly the OPPOSITE. There has been a general and worldwide outpouring of support. But don't let that stop the gay community from using it as a platform to take the actions of ONE INDIVIDUAL and use it to paint with a broad brush. Is the gay community discriminated against? Sure but ALL groups are to some degree.

This was the act of ONE individual who was acting under the influence of a religious sect that has no tolerance for homosexuality. That religious sect has an agenda to destroy this country due to our support of Israel. In general, that religion is oppressive on many level and not just towards the LGBT community.

Doc I wish I'd read this before I typed my response. "+1" would have been a lot quicker.

It's utterly self absorbed, and a fundamental disrespecting of the basic principles of individual liberty he purports to uphold.

Krank

06-14-2016, 08:21 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/loretta-lynch-womens-summit-000000011.html?nhp=1

"...The victims of this attack were living in an America that had newly recognized their fundamental right to marry. They were living in a country that had draped the White House in a rainbow flag. They were living in a world where the highest court in our land had declared that love is love. And remember this, and know this, and hold onto this: We are still that country. That is still us.”...

...“As we all try, as we always do, to make some sense, to find some reason in an inherently senseless act, I want our LGBT friends and neighbors and family members to know this: that we support you,” she continued.

Movements for progress are never without opposition, she reminded. “Every movement indeed has faced opposition, has faced threats, has faced violence and fear. But we will persevere,” she said.

“And let us declare,” she said, “that far from dividing us as terrorism aims to do, let us show the world that this attack, this attack has brought us together in support. It has brought us together in solidarity. It has brought us together in love.”

Lynch also pledged the full resources at her command to the investigation of the attack, which left 49 victims dead. “I want you to know that the Department of Justice — I and all of my colleagues the FBI, the ATF, our national security division, our U.S. attorney’s office in Florida, our state and local partners — are doing everything that we can to investigate this appalling crime. And we will bring all resources to bear — everything we have — to this investigation.”

dan_bgblue

06-14-2016, 08:34 PM

Lynch also pledged the full resources at her command to the investigation of the attack, which left 49 victims dead. “I want you to know that the Department of Justice — I and all of my colleagues the FBI, the ATF, our national security division, our U.S. attorney’s office in Florida, our state and local partners — are doing everything that we can to investigate this appalling crime. And we will bring all resources to bear — everything we have — to this investigation.”

To my reading eyes, that is more political babble and pandering. The perp is dead so what will spending untold millions to investigate everything and everyone really do? It might prove his wife is an accomplice, or give cause to bring the radical who publicly supported killing gays to a circus of a trial. What else will it accomplish? Will it suddenly cause radical muslims to start loving gays? Will it do anything to stop the next attack?

Krank

06-14-2016, 08:42 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/orlando-resilience-shooting-city-beautiful-000000727.html

CitizenBBN

06-14-2016, 08:43 PM

I feel like I"m just being disagreeable, and dont' want to be, but IMO Lynch's comments on this being an attack on all of America are true.

The problem is those of us in the non-LGBT community saw it that way from the start. The only people that seem to disagree are certain voices in the LGBT community who are quickly blaming the non-LGBT community, or American society, or otherwise defining this as nothing more than a hate crime against gays.

We GOT that it was an attack on all of us, on all Americans, targeting a group they particularly despise but still an attack on our soil of us all. It's certain leaders of the LGBT community who seem confused on that point. They still see this as us versus them on a domestic level, LGBT versus those who tolerate but do not embrace their choices.

Just about everyone else sees it as an insane man who embraced a radical Islamic message and went out and killed innocent Americans in the name of that movement. No doubt targeting gays, but really no different than when another attacker targeted a recruiting office or another pair targeted a cartoon convention that dared draw Mohammad.

No doubt this guy had a particular issue with gays, and maybe was repressing his own tendencies, but it was still an attack he made in the name of the enemies and the enemies of human liberty.

dan_bgblue

06-14-2016, 09:21 PM

Chick-fil-A (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/06/14/chick-fil-did-what-on-sunday.html?intcmp=hplnws)

CitizenBBN

06-14-2016, 09:34 PM

I'm too lazy to flush this out dan, but the Chick-fil-A attacks are a great example of the problem. The company did nothing anyone could point to that was discriminatory in any way, nor is their corporate behavior or mission in any way anti-gay.

All that happened was that their CEO happened to express HIS personal beliefs that marriage is between a man and a woman, and they were vilified and accused of making "hate chicken", etc.

how dare someone have a different opinion on a personal level, much less the gall to express it.

Mind you he never did anything TO anyone, nor did the company, he just had a different opinion.

That's very much relevant to that piece Krank cited, where some in the LGBT community believe that if you don't embrace their beliefs you are the enemy and even in some way ENCOURAGING these attacks. It highlights a self-absorbed view shared by most of the Left that if you don't embrace their ideals it's OK to persecute you, but you can't persecute them for their different beliefs b/c that's not supporting individual liberty.

It's a shame hypocrisy has no calories, we'd be able to feed the world with it.

Doc

06-14-2016, 09:59 PM

Chick-fil-A (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/06/14/chick-fil-did-what-on-sunday.html?intcmp=hplnws)

But you won't hear about that. A great thing for them to do.

But as far as being tolerant of others opinions, that's not to say that the moral majority is any different, or better. You better pray with Pat Robertson or Mike Huckabee, give a few "god blesses" every day and pray in school because that where praying should be done. And if you don't think so, if you think praying should be done at home and in church rather than school, then you sure ain't a good republican because those are "family values"! However the left seems to be more militant and aggressive about it. I've not seen boycotts of business, attempts to close industries based or physical violence played out from the right toward the left.

Krank

06-14-2016, 10:53 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-siebold/need-more-proof-being-gay_b_5805680.html

suncat05

06-15-2016, 08:58 AM

You know, at the end of the day, this was a terrorist attack on AMERICANS, most of whom that were in that club on that night were gay. So what if they're gay? So what? They are AMERICANS who were attacked in AMERICA by an azzhole who called the police to brag about what he was doing while yelling "Allah Akbar" as he was squeezing the trigger.
Oh, those victims attacked were gay? So damn what? It's an excuse for MURDER. They are gay, so they have to die! BULLYANG! Live and let live. It's that simple. IMHO, we're focusing on the wrong subject here. The gay people in that club were/are not the problem. The problem is RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM, which our coward of a President doesn't have the stones to say and truthfully doesn't believe. And who refuses to protect us from RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM because he doesn't believe it's a problem.
Ahhhhhhh, if these cowardly RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS would only attack somebody like me. Somebody who would quickly turn into the newest chapter of the "72 Virgins Dating Club"!...............but those RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS cowards won't attack somebody like me unless they can jump me, because they know what comes next. So they'll continue to attack unarmed and defenseless people, just like they do everywhere else in this world, until somebody shoots back.

kingcat

06-15-2016, 12:02 PM

With all due respect, we are concentrating on our political and social differences instead of standing united. Exactly the victory they desire, and one we cannot counter attack.

And so imho, no matter who is right or who is wrong (were it that cut and dried)...we are destined to fall. Almost the ultimate in sad.

As I was told by a family member the moment President Bush said we must change our way of life to fight the war on terror.."we lost".
And yet all we had to do was stand united placing our differences aside and maintain our way of life. But media ratings and advertising dollars take precedent over patriotism. I've come to see that as an indisputable fact.

And our reactions remain the same, lashing out against each other, affording terrorist the ability to influence if not control our destiny.

Money is becoming the god of this nation, politics it's MO, and TV the high priest. All sides of the political spectrum are complicit...as are we.

UKHistory

06-15-2016, 12:27 PM

Krank

06-15-2016, 03:55 PM

Krank

06-15-2016, 04:19 PM

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/war-veteran-imran-yousef-saves-dozens-during-orlando-nightclub-shooting-omar-mateen/

kingcat

06-15-2016, 05:05 PM

Money is becoming the god of this nation? Money has been the god of this country since people paid for kidnapped workers turned into slaves. Money has been the god of this country since coal miners were paid in script and the 8 hour work day was called a communist plot by the New York Times.

Money has been god for a long time.

A point well taken.

But the advent of cable news, and other political programing has interfered with the American way of life. We are blatantly manipulated via the media by corporate power and serve their agenda as a nation.
And that agenda is to divide people and provide programming which appeals to each segment, and dilute the strength of our nation..the will of the people.

Republican versus democrat, liberal versus conservative, and now even race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.. are fair game. And things that once were not worthy o,f or expedient for public discussion are used to divide us even further.

What the end game is I don't know, yet corporate power is to be feared in any modern society. But when our thoughts and emotions are manipulated daily, there is no way back from it that I see. Opinions don't matter, only the desired discussion.

Terror is an adjective. There can never be a successful war waged against it and there is no rational way to discuss doing so. The media, using our willingness to argue over it has empowered it, and imho intentionally so.

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/game-pawns-18416424.jpg

Krank

06-15-2016, 05:14 PM

http://www.newswest9.com/story/32213349/local-church-holding-vigil-standing-by-lgbtq-community

CitizenBBN

06-15-2016, 05:59 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/15/conservatives-desperate-ignorant-orlando-blame-game.html

Krank there's no doubt this guy has more messed up layers than an onion, but a big part of WHY he was so messed up was directly tied to the message of radical Islamists.

Heck, his own father released a video condemning gays. we KNOW he's followed the preaching of imams calling for the "merciful killing" of homosexuals.

Was he possibly gay and just couldn't square that with hismelf, his father, his faith or whatever? Yeah, sure that's possible, but it's not exactly a surprise or insight that the instruments of terrorism are often mentally deranged and confused and driven by personal situations.

Recruiting into the Nazis or a group like ISIS preys very specifically on those situations, finding young men who feel lost, disconnected, hopeless, persecuted and giving them purpose and power.

But that doesn't mean this isn't an act of terrorism or isn't tied to ISIS.

Look at this contradiction: You posted an article saying even those who only tolerate homosexuality are in part responsible for a culture that encourages these horrors. OK, then what does that say about Imams and radical religious leaders and ISIS about their role in it? Surely it's VASTLY greater when they go around preaching that gays should be murdered in the name of God.

yet we're supposed to ignore that and say this wasn't driven in large part by those groups? If they weren't then those of us who are just tolerant are surely off the hook, and if they are responsible then that's for sure an act of terrorism.

That's the beauty of terrorism, esp. in the modern era. It doesn't require ISIS to make subversive contact with people, have operatives and handlers, funnel money and weapons to moles behind enemy lines and then instruct and activate them.

Oh no. Now all they have to do to be effective is get their message out to those disenfranchised, hopeless, confused, imbalanced lost souls through social media and videos and let them handle the rest.

An act committed at their behest and encouragement is still an act of terrorism, not a hate crime. If he called 911 to say he just hated gays then OK, but he called 911 to pledge himself to ISIS. Sure he hated gays, and maybe in part b/c of his own issues with his sexuality, but it was his hooking up with radical Islam as his way of dealing with that which moved him from misguided self hatred to full blown terrorist.

that's how modern terrorism will work, but in truth I guarantee if you go back and research the rise of the Nazis you'll see the same exact pattern, disaffected youth who already have a lot of self identity issues being recruited by a powerful message of purpose and hate.

CitizenBBN

06-15-2016, 06:08 PM

http://www.newswest9.com/story/32213349/local-church-holding-vigil-standing-by-lgbtq-community

I have more than a few issues with the stance of many organized religions on the issue of homosexuality, but in this case that hasn't been the source of politics and division.

IMO the united way to view this is to see it as an act of terror against America, the divided way is to start claiming that "tolerance isn't enough" of an embrace of a given lifestyle.

I think this one person picked a gay target b/c of his personal issues on the subject but also b/c of the message of pure hate spewed by radical Islam on the subject, but the last one picked his co-workers in San Bernadino, the one before that picked a marathon in Boston, and the next one may pick something else. But all were influenced heavily by the far reaching media message of radical Islam, which is exactly their plan.

If the Southern Baptists starting preaching to go murder gays, and then someone who went to one of those churches who may have struggled with his sexuality went and did it, no one would say this was just a one off hate crime of a confused man. They'd be calling for any and all actions needed to silence that kind of preaching.

well why aren't we calling for any and all actions to stop that message when it comes largely from foreigners who are also calling on everyone to kill Americans in general?

If this were Christians inspiring this sort of action the LGBT community would be out of their minds, ready to rewrite the Constitution to stop the message, but when it comes from a radical Islamist movement it somehow isn't the primary thing we should focus on?

CitizenBBN

06-15-2016, 07:09 PM

Not a big follower, but Dr. Ablow makes the point rather well IMO, esp. drawing on the Nazi analogy.

The fact that he may have deep seeded psychological reasons for WHY he embraced this ideology does nothing to change the fact that the ideology is in fact a danger to our nation and our people as proven by the results of his actions.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/06/15/orlando-massacre-who-hell-cares-if-omar-mateen-was-gay.html?intcmp=hpbt3

badrose

06-15-2016, 07:35 PM

A point well taken.

But the advent of cable news, and other political programing has interfered with the American way of life. We are blatantly manipulated via the media by corporate power and serve their agenda as a nation.
And that agenda is to divide people and provide programming which appeals to each segment, and dilute the strength of our nation..the will of the people.

Republican versus democrat, liberal versus conservative, and now even race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.. are fair game. And things that once were not worthy o,f or expedient for public discussion are used to divide us even further.

What the end game is I don't know, yet corporate power is to be feared in any modern society. But when our thoughts and emotions are manipulated daily, there is no way back from it that I see. Opinions don't matter, only the desired discussion.

Terror is an adjective. There can never be a successful war waged against it and there is no rational way to discuss doing so. The media, using our willingness to argue over it has empowered it, and imho intentionally so.

Cable news would not have been necessary had the networks not become in lock-step in line with the liberal agenda after 2 terms of Reagan and 4 years of Bush I. The gloves came off and CNN joined in.

No term limits combined with corporate dollars corrupted politics beyond recognition on both sides. Nearly impossible to get back what was once a viable system that actually had American citizens' best interests at heart, even if there were different ideas on how to do it.

kingcat

06-15-2016, 08:28 PM

Cable news would not have been necessary had the networks not become in lock-step in line with the liberal agenda after 2 terms of Reagan and 4 years of Bush I. The gloves came off and CNN joined in.

No term limits combined with corporate dollars corrupted politics beyond recognition on both sides. Nearly impossible to get back what was once a viable system that actually had American citizens' best interests at heart, even if there were different ideas on how to do it.

That's one viewpoint. And no one can argue that either side is beneath the other at their worst.

yet another is that the gloves came off with Rush and Republican party in damage control mode when Bill Clinton promised to do the impossible and balance the budget in his first term.
And before we give credit where it isn't due, the existing republican plan was a ten or twelve year plan.
Damage control also to expose the accusations that the democratic president would seek to remove ALL guns from the American people as right wing propaganda which proved untrue.

His success and subsequent record setting popularity sent his opposition into a frenzy, launching the most expensive investigation in history into every facet of his public and private life only to find a sad sexual encounter in the White House.
And from Senator Kerry labeled as a traitor, Obama a foreigner, etc, etc.. that type of politics has continued with the heartfelt support of most of the grand ole party.

It just depends on who one asks. But regardless which side one is on, the current political hate is definitely blinding, dangerous, and Un-American.

PedroDaGr8

06-15-2016, 09:05 PM

CitizenBBN

06-15-2016, 09:14 PM

No President in our lifetime has ever balanced the budget. Not one, not one year.

They claim a "balanced budget" thanks to tricky wording and accounting tricks. Not counting transportation funding b/c it's an "investment", calling something that reduces EXPECTED future debt a "cutting of the debt", not paying up Social Security and pension funds, those kinds of sneaky things. Any private company claiming a balanced budget using their tricks would be arrested for fraud.

That's coming from someone who thinks Clinton was one of the better Presidents of the era. He was, but he didn't balance the budget, and neither did anyone else.

Debt wise, we're plummeting towards the sun, the fact that some Presidents slowed the rate of plummet doesn't mean much in the end. Until we actually stop and turn around it doesn't do us any long term good.

CitizenBBN

06-15-2016, 09:20 PM

As for the rancor, the reason for it is simple: the two main ideologies in the country are at a time when they are very far apart in their beliefs.

No conspiracies, no blame, it's just simple fact that at different points in US history the two main groups have been closer together and farther apart on the direction the country should take. The farthest apart point led to a Civil War. Another big gap was during the New Deal, another in the 60s, but we're in a very deep one right now.

Interestingly the period this is probably most like is the turn of the last century, when we saw a lot of blowback and the rise of the first major Populist movement, the Bull Moose party, etc. What it reflects is that the two main blocks, a Left that is basically Democratic Socialist in the European tradition, and on the right a socially more fundamentalist block that is also for limited government, has a third block that is basically Libertarian that is split between them due to several factors.

So it's a time of great turmoil. The parties are due for a shift on their axis, and when that happens the time before it has a lot of this sort of conflict.

kingcat

06-16-2016, 12:06 AM

The division is a made for TV sporting event and we as a people are being manipulated. But the war being waged is a propaganda war, and in our own country, yet the true goal (imho) is exercising and perfecting control over the minds of our citizens. Ideologies are presented in ways that divide us farther.

Some conspiracies prove true, and I think this one will also..

Was John Kerry a traitor, despite the claims of those who served under him to the contrary? Was Obama a US citizen despite claims he was not, and the guarantee of upcoming proof by Donald Trump?
And, in fairness, there are equal points to be made for the other side. But those have been made thousands of times in this forum.

The point is, it doesn't matter what is true to the American public if it suits our own acquired agenda (generally speaking). We love our FOX news, it's the only true news and we love our MSNBC, it tells it like it is. These are some actual statements I hear quite often and have read here in the past.
Even hardcore political blogs are now considered news outlets. Because we, again generally speaking, want so bad to believe them.

That is the sad state of things and the most present danger we face as a nation.

badrose

06-16-2016, 07:01 AM

FWIW I don't watch the news. I read it on Drudge.

badrose

06-16-2016, 07:29 AM

Two years into the Clinton administration the Republicans took control of House and Senate. From that point on Clinton was wise enough to go along with most of what reached his desk. Thank you, Newt, for making Clinton look good.

Now we have a flooding of illegal aliens and the Dems can't wait to get them eligible to vote. They've already taken money budgeted for helping our veterans in order to take care of them. If this happens, we can kiss everything that we once loved about our country goodbye. Hello, Police State.

badrose

06-16-2016, 07:54 AM

Well, duh.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/national-politics/article84049057.html

UKHistory

06-16-2016, 09:47 AM

Speaking of polarization of congress. A data science student at Harvard has created this visualization showing how congress has become more polar over time. It visualizes the voting patterns of congressional members. It shows how in the 80s, the two parties were relatively close together. With many members crossing party lines. As time goes on, you get a more bimodal distribution with only a few crossing the boundaries. Basically, it goes from a government of compromise to a government of which party has the most votes. You can debate the cause but honestly, the results are clear.
http://imgur.com/a/Wmoex#0

Pork barrel legislation really allowed folks to work together and support one another's local interests.

Another thing that can not be denied is that the Senate and the Congress were composed of the same kind of people Most were white men. I am not saying that was great or right. But I do think a common shared background allowed for easier communication for them than today.

There are many problems with most folks being the same but effective communication was not one of them.

There have been real periods of bitterness in Congress. The WWII and post war fraternity is long since gone.

Media spin on both sides painting members of each party as traitors is poor form.

But the biggest problem might have been the redistricting that has gone on. Some parts of the country will be more conservative than others but I do think Congressional districts get redrawn to the point that a Congressional rep may have a very one sided view throughout their community.

We need everyone's ideas and being open to different points of views. This allows for a middle of the road approach that promotes a more tolerant view of others.
LBJ and the war quickly followed on the heels by Nixon and Watergate began to poison the waters.

KeithKSR

06-16-2016, 12:56 PM

Pork barrel legislation really allowed folks to work together and support one another's local interests.

Another thing that can not be denied is that the Senate and the Congress were composed of the same kind of people Most were white men. I am not saying that was great or right. But I do think a common shared background allowed for easier communication for them than today.

There are many problems with most folks being the same but effective communication was not one of them.

There have been real periods of bitterness in Congress. The WWII and post war fraternity is long since gone.

Media spin on both sides painting members of each party as traitors is poor form.

But the biggest problem might have been the redistricting that has gone on. Some parts of the country will be more conservative than others but I do think Congressional districts get redrawn to the point that a Congressional rep may have a very one sided view throughout their community.

We need everyone's ideas and being open to different points of views. This allows for a middle of the road approach that promotes a more tolerant view of others.
LBJ and the war quickly followed on the heels by Nixon and Watergate began to poison the waters.

Single party rule in many urban areas has driven the parties farther apart. Both parties have moved left, the DNC has moved much farther left at a greater rate than has the GOP.

Krank

06-16-2016, 01:10 PM

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a45852/watermark-orlando-lgbt-newspaper-pulse-massacre/

"For the past few days, Manes has played the role of editor, community point person, and spokesman. After he got his staff working on a brand-new 72-page June 16 issue, he went on NBC to talk about how his community was mourning. Visibly shaken, he told host Tamron Hall, "It's been a very difficult time for those of us in Orlando's LGBT community. I don't even know if my friends are alive or dead. My parents called me this morning to see if I was alive. And then I was at the press conference this morning and someone asked me if her brother was alive. It's very personal."

Manes says this week's shooting is just one example that shows why dedicated resources are important for the LGBT community.

"There have been a lot of conversations over the past year as to whether there's relevance to any of this any more—even gay bars, because of the internet and the phone [dating] apps. But this is the backlash that we were all afraid of and this is the backlash that we're going to have to fight," he says.

"It's absolutely important that we have singularly gay voices talking to gay people who trust them. It's important today more than ever."

Krank

06-16-2016, 05:31 PM

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2016/0616/After-Orlando-shooting-gun-sales-to-LGBT-people-rise

"It is not unusual for gun sales to spike after a mass shooting, but in the wake of the Orlando, Fla., attacks, gun shops have begun to see a new demographic of customer: LGBT people...

..."It's sad that we must consider such things," wrote Gwendolyn Patton of the Pink Pistols, a LGBT self-defense organization, on her website following the attacks, "but when there are persons out there who mean us harm, we must find ways to protect ourselves within the law."

Founded in 2000, the Pink Pistols have a diverse membership, with 40 chapters around the country. Ms. Patton told Politico that its members spanned the spectrum of political ideology, from those who fervently dislike the National Rifle Association for past remarks it made about the gay community, to those who side with the NRA."

Krank

06-16-2016, 05:51 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-orlando-shooting-is-defining-moment-for-parents_us_5763038fe4b057ac661b988a

Krank

06-16-2016, 06:05 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/16/gay-muslim-islam-is-no-religion-of-peace.html

CitizenBBN

06-16-2016, 09:47 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/16/gay-muslim-islam-is-no-religion-of-peace.html

that's a good read.

KSRBEvans

06-17-2016, 07:51 AM

How divided are we as a country?

79% of Republicans see the Orlando shootings as an act of Islamic terrorism; 16% see it as an act of domestic gun violence.

60% of Democrats see the Orlando shootings as an act of domestic gun violence; 29% see it as an act of Islamic terrorism.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/192842/republicans-democrats-interpret-orlando-incident-differently.aspx

Krank

06-17-2016, 05:41 PM

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/283907-marines-under-investigation-for-alleged-gay-bar-threat

"Two active-duty Marines are under investigation after a Facebook post threatening violence against gay bars, according to Friday reports.

The photo that led to the probe shows a uniformed corporal aiming a rifle with his finger near the weapon’s trigger.

“Coming to a gay bar near you!” the image’s caption reads...

...The person who allegedly posted the photo, the newspaper added, also wrote “too soon?” after the image’s publishing.

The incident follows last Sunday’s mass shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando that killed 49 people and wounded 53 others...

...“The Marine Corps does not tolerate discrimination based on sexual orientation, race, gender or religion,” I MEF said in a statement, adding officials will take “appropriate action” over the incident.

“This type of behavior and mindset will not be allowed, and it is not consistent with the core values of honor, courage and commitment that are demonstrated by the vast majority of Marines on a daily basis.”

Krank

06-17-2016, 05:56 PM

http://www.businessinsider.com/lgbt-not-safe-in-us-south-and-police-arent-protecting-2016-6?r=UK&IR=T

"While the Otherside Lounge bombing occurred nearly 20 years ago, the incident has personally and professionally affected me both as a lesbian and in my role during my tenure with the Atlanta Police Department. I recall seeing the footage of the incident unfold in several news outlets, and watching in disbelief when a city official "outed" a victim, who subsequently lost her job as a result...

...I still recall the fear of going to my first gay club in Atlanta - was someone going to kill me? Would there be another bomb? You see, you're never really safe being LGBT+ in the South. You can be fired, you can be raped, you can be attacked, and you can be killed for being defiant enough to just exist...

...According to FBI crime statistics, LGBT+ people are still more likely to be the victim of a violent hate crime than other minority communities - and many such crimes simply aren't reported to the police, or aren't classified as hate crimes if they are. Disappointingly, it appears that the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009 has done very little to bring these figures down.

While the act shed light onto LGBT+ hate, it did very little to change public attitudes in the South. Police agencies included more diversity training, recruited more LGBT+ applicants, and introduced LGBT+ clauses in their standard operating procedures. And yet police still selectively targeted the LGBT+ community: recall the brutal 2009 raids on the Forth Worth Rainbow Lounge and the Atlanta Eagle Bar. This selective targeting of LGBT+ "safe places" has further heightened the divide between LGBT+ Southerners and the police."

Krank

06-18-2016, 02:01 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/gay-leaders-turn-nemesis-police-safety-39958235

Gay Leaders Turn to Old Nemesis, the Police, for Safety

Krank

06-18-2016, 02:25 PM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/a-year-after-marriage-ruling-lgbt-rights-struggles-continue/2016/06/18/6ed0a462-356f-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html

A year after marriage ruling, LGBT rights struggles continue

Krank

06-18-2016, 02:34 PM

kingcat

06-18-2016, 03:05 PM

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/week-god-61816

"[Tuesday] on “The 700 Club,” televangelist Pat Robertson reacted to the massacre at an Orlando gay club by making the absurd claim that liberal LGBT rights advocates have aligned themselves with radical Islamists and are now reaping what they have sowed.

Robertson said that liberals are facing a “dilemma” because they love both LGBT equality and Islamic extremism, and that it is better for conservatives like himself not to get involved but to instead just watch the two groups kill each other.
“The left is having a dilemma of major proportions and I think for those of us who disagree with some of their policies, the best thing to do is to sit on the sidelines and let them kill themselves,” he told his audience."

..and I don't believe that is far to the right thinking. I am a moderate Democrat with no influence politically...and yet I am becoming physically afraid to speak my mind.
The propaganda machine is out of control and people are willingly blind to it. And the anger has already boiled over to a point that endangers our way of life.
A large segment of our country is ready to sacrifice liberty and freedom, for peace and security, and the American spirit of diversity and inclusiveness for absolutism.

As for Mr. Robertson, many times I thought Pat was having a word of knowledge on my dying Son's healing, only to finally hear that it was for someone else with a sever allergy or the like that God was healing on national TV. Yep i admit it, I believed many liars and false prophets back then.

That man will have to answer to many in God's kingdom, if he makes it. He has no moral platform to speak from however. A deceiver of many.

Krank

06-18-2016, 03:08 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-orlando-syndrome-re-traumatizing-a-community_us_5764c9a4e4b0ed0729a1a4c5

"I’m a Los Angeles-based medical doctor who, for the past 25 years, has specialized in treating the LGBT community. I’ve witnessed the ravages of AIDS, the physical and psychological trauma of violent hate crimes, and depression and suicide in a community specifically targeted for discrimination because of who we love...

...Now Orlando feels like a new “9/11 moment” for the LGBT community. While senseless mass killings have happened countless times before, this time the victims of the mass shooting, which was BOTH a hate crime and a terrorist attack, were gay people in what should have been a safe haven – a gay nightclub...

...PTSD is a condition that’s triggered by a terrifying event, either by experiencing it or witnessing it. Symptoms may include recurrent, unwanted distressing memories of the traumatic event(s), feeling emotionally numb, hopelessness about the future, always being on guard for danger, insomnia, irritability and difficulty concentrating...

...I’ve been literally overwhelmed by (heretofore emotionally stable) LGBT patients calling in with PTSD-like symptoms that I’m experiencing myself — despair, sleepless nights, hopelessness and fear.

Freshly re-traumatized, we in the LGBT community are now faced with a choice — cower in the shadows overcome with despair or become soldiers with a unifying cause. If we rise up as we did with AIDS and our fight for equality, I believe we will witness those feelings of despair dissipate. Better to fight – and maybe die — for a worthy cause than to be shot in a dark nightclub...

...A Facebook blogger rightly and defiantly declared, “You can wound us, kill us, attack us, propose bills to take away our rights. You can judge us, bully us, project your fears on to us, you can censor us, ignore us, but you will never stop us. We are a community of survivors. We have battled persecution from our families, our schools and our governments. We lived through the holocaust, and then a plague. We have always dared to let our dreams reach beyond us. Every time we got knocked down, we got right back up. That is just what we do.”

bigsky

06-18-2016, 03:32 PM

It does seem like a 9/11 moment: just as Falwell/Robertson tried to blame Americans first with their "aclu and abortionists are to blame" so Barack Obama and the democrats have tried to blame america first with their "NRA and GOP" blaming. Instead of blaming a violent religion that espouses beheadings and death for homosexuals and apostates, and seeks political and religious tyranny over a wide geography and will engage in any atrocity to get it. I saw that Kareem Abdul Jabbar tried to equate the Westboro Baptist Church with the violence and geopolitical terror of radical islam. I have yet to see Westboro behead, take over any countries, drive planes into buildings, shoot fifty homosexuals, burn people alive, and a very long list of violent military and terrorist activities from the 8th century .

bigsky

06-18-2016, 04:01 PM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CAcdta_8I

This clown is exactly what Barry O sounds like to me.

Krank

06-18-2016, 04:34 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/when-your-4th-grade-son-is-called-gay_us_57640e14e4b034ff3eef50f4

When Your 4th Grade Son is Called “Gay”

"Now, because of a couple of carelessly spewed words that will certainly be repeated over again, my son will soon be forced to wonder if he’s gay, because other kids are now saying it out loud. Though he doesn’t know what a self-fulfilling prophecy is, I have seen the confusion and anxiety on his face more in 4th grade than ever. Of course, adolescence and puberty are almost within hand’s reach. However, when going into the tumultuous years of adolescence (which is already hard enough for anyone) my son is now going in with the additional, excessive worry of, “am I gay?” He knows that our family doesn’t care, and we will continue to love and support him no matter what.

But I’m learning that just because we’re okay with it, that doesn’t mean it will be easy for him to go through – whether he’s gay, bi, trans, asexual, or questioning – if he’s basically anything that varies from cisgender, straight male, he’s not protected; he is subject to legal discrimination. He is subject to hate crimes. He is even subject to the subtle (but repetitive and tiresome) day-to-day discrimination. Most of us don’t understand the more subtle acts of discrimination. When you see it happen to your child, though, it’s extremely painful, because you realize that people don’t even know they’re doing it. It is born out of assumptions, and we all know what happens when we make assumptions...

...from the first day he wore his sparkly “girls” backpack to school this year, several kids regularly gave him strange looks. Adults, too. In fact, one adult approached us on the way into school for small talk and commented, “I see you got your sister’s hand-me-down backpack,” chuckling at the cleverness of his own joke. My son stared at the ground, embarrassed, and not laughing while I gently told the man that “actually, my son had chosen it himself.” Awkwardness ensued, and we shrugged it off, but after the 18th or 20th of these such daily comments, my son could’ve easily decided to tuck his sparkly rainbow backpack in the corner of his bedroom closet where it would be hidden. He could’ve easily swapped it out for his old one – a neutral shade of pastel blue that he did not pick himself – and have a much easier time walking into the school building every day, blending in with the rest of the boys.

But, he has bravely and independently chosen not to do that. Instead, every day, I watch in awe as this 4th grade boy of mine straps on a “girly girl’s backpack,” wears it like a warrior shield, and in the process, gives a collective “sorry, not sorry” statement to all those who dare to judge. His bravery, day after day, in this single act of noble defiance makes me feel like maybe I’ve done something right after all."

Krank

06-18-2016, 09:38 PM

http://mashable.com/2016/06/18/angels-westboro-orlando-victim-funeral/#WZK0hh20MOq3

Westboro protesters are no match for these 'angels' at Orlando victims' funeral

"Hateful words were no match for crowds of people preaching love and their guardian angels.

The Westboro Baptist Church promised to protest the funeral of an Orlando shooting victim Saturday, but the tiny contingent of four from the homophobic Kansas-based church were drowned out by hundreds of people chanting "We love you!" and "Orlando Strong!"

Among the counter-demonstrators outside 32-year-old Christopher Andrew Leinonen's funeral at the Cathedral Church of St. Luke, were several people dressed as angels. The costumes were a project of the Orlando Shakespeare Company and Angel Action Network, which outfitted volunteers with angel outfits made from white linen.

A line of angels Saturday worked to block the handful of Westboro protesters who shouted phrases like "Why did God destroy Sodom?"

Angel Action Network was founded nearly two decades ago after Westboro church members protested the funeral of Matthew Shepard, a gay man who was brutally beaten, tied to a fence in Wyoming and left to die. He succumbed to his injuries in a hospital days after the attack.

The Westboro Baptist Church, considered an extremist group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, often protests at funerals, and this isn't the first time they were met by people pledging to protect mourners.

Earlier in the week, a "human chain" made by LGBT community members, bikers and other allies was formed at 40-year-old Javier Jorge-Reyes' funeral. It was the first public memorial for one of the 49 victims killed by a terrorist last Saturday night at Pulse, an Orlando gay nightclub, during the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history."

Krank

06-18-2016, 10:08 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-assistant-state-attorney-suspended-controversial-facebook-post/story?id=39954404

"A Florida assistant state attorney has been suspended after writing a Facebook post that denigrated the city of Orlando following the Pulse nightclub terror attack, the state attorney's office announced Friday night.

"Downtown Orlando has no bottom," Assistant State Attorney Kenneth Lewis wrote on his Facebook page last Sunday evening -- less than 24 hours after the tragedy -- according to ABC Orlando affiliate WFTV. "The entire city should be leveled. It is void of any redeeming quality...It is void of culture. If you live down there you do it at your own risk and at your own peril." The post continued to paint Orlando and its residents in a negative light."

CitizenBBN

06-18-2016, 11:56 PM

The Westboro people are bat crap crazy, everyone knows it. But they're the definition of a fringe group and have no affiliation with any faith association.

But as bad as they are, they're antics aren't as bad IMO as those out there calling for gays to be murdered as a kind of mercy killing. They're despicable, but probably not much of a threat to lead to real violence. They're just too stupid to be taken credibly, and they aren't calling for murder anyway.

bigsky

06-19-2016, 02:09 PM

The Westboro people are bat crap crazy, everyone knows it. But they're the definition of a fringe group and have no affiliation with any faith association. But as bad as they are, they're antics aren't as bad IMO as those out there calling for gays to be murdered as a kind of mercy killing. They're despicable, but probably not much of a threat to lead to real violence. They're just too stupid to be taken credibly, and they aren't calling for murder anyway. They haven't taken over any countries or beheaded anyone. The claimed elsewhere equivalency is ludicrous.

Krank

06-19-2016, 03:42 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/turkish-police-fire-tear-gas-banned-gay-pride-39970436?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+abcnews%2FDmIM+%28ABC+News%3A +Top+Stories%29

"Turkish Police Fire Rubber Bullets, Tear Gas at LGBT Parade"

Krank

06-19-2016, 03:58 PM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/religious-conservatives-attempt-balance-in-orlando-response/2016/06/18/47a9326e-3510-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html

"Presiding Bishop Yvette Flunder of the Fellowship of Affirming Ministries Network, an association of mainly black and gay churches, pointed to the shooting at the historically black Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in South Carolina a year ago, and noted, “we did not hesitate to say that the victims in Charleston were black.”...

...Conservative religious leaders were just as vocal and emotional in their remarks, but the focus of their statements varied...

...But none of these [conservative leaders'] statements specifically mentioned that gays and lesbians had been singled out...

...On the other hand, the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, an association for Latino evangelicals, which helped local churches organize a vigil Wednesday in Orlando, issued a statement calling for “radical love” for all, citing gays in particular, despite the conference’s theological opposition to same-sex relationships.

In St. Petersburg, Florida, Bishop Robert Lynch took the rare step for an American Roman Catholic bishop of saying faith groups had a role in fueling violence like what happened in Orlando.

“Sadly, it is religion, including our own, which targets, mostly verbally, and also often breeds contempt for, gays, lesbians and transgender people,” Lynch wrote on his blog. “Singling out people for victimization because of their religion, their sexual orientation, their nationality must be offensive to God’s ears. It has to stop.”

The Rev. Joel Hunter, pastor of the evangelical Northland, A Church Distributed, in the Orlando area, said the attack and its aftermath have led him to reflect on how he has spoken about the Bible and LGBT people in the past.

Hunter... spent the week in community meetings and at events in response to the shooting, leading to the pastor’s first introduction to Carlos Smith, the government affairs officer for Equality Florida, an LGBT advocacy group...

...“The fact that I didn’t know him was indicative of the cubicle all of us have been operating in and my lack of relationships that I’m now regretting,” Hunter said in a phone interview.

“My relationships and respect for LGBTQ people will not depend on any specific theological finding,” Hunter said of how he will re-examine his approach to gays and lesbians. “My recommitment is to focus on living out the basic nature of God — love — and leaving the judging up to Him.”

Krank

06-19-2016, 07:49 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/least-1-000-protesters-swarm-201255451.html

"A large group of demonstrators showed up Sunday outside the California church where a pastor praised the Orlando attack just hours after 49 people were murdered in a gay nightclub.

At least 1,000 people protested Pastor Roger Jimenez at his Verity Baptist Church in Sacramento on Sunday, many of them waving pro-LGBT signs and rainbow flags as parishioners struggled to maneuver through.

Jimenez is seen in a YouTube video of his June 12 sermon calling the clubgoers who were killed at the Pulse nightclub "pedophiles" whose deaths have made the world a safer place...

...In the YouTube video... Jimenez wondered aloud to his congregation "Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today? Um – no – I think that's great! I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida, is a little safer tonight."

Krank

06-19-2016, 08:47 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/parents-straight-kids-orlando_us_57646a28e4b0fbbc8bea8199

What Parents Of Straight Kids Will Never Understand About Orlando: When others talk about gay people, they are talking about our children

"Here’s what I want parents of straight kids (and others) to understand: Our gay kids are innocent. They were born this way. They did nothing to deserve being disliked, hated or bullied — yet so often they are. No matter how high their self-esteem, they often feel hurt.

As parents, it KILLS us that we can’t protect them from the world...

...We fought hard for two years alongside Equality Maryland to attain the right for our kids to marry. We and our kids even testified before the Maryland legislature.

Many people who testified against the bill actually described gay people as “pedophiles, child abusers, lower than animals, and sexual predators.”

I was outraged. Those are my children you are talking about! And they are sitting right here. I still shake with rage when I think about it.

Last time I looked, the predators were a GOP House Speaker, a Penn State football coach and some Catholic priests.

Our son, more than our daughter, has been ridiculed, called derogatory names, had a friend who was severely beaten ... for just being gay. The threat of violence, for just being who he is, is often on his mind...

...Every time they meet someone new, our kids fear being judged. When a new co-worker, boss or doctor asks if they’re dating anyone, they have to lie or come out all over again. The fear of judgment and rejection is chronic.

Our children can be fired from a job or denied housing because they are gay. Sexual orientation and gender identity has not been added as a protected class, as are race, religion, color, sex, and national origin.

We can’t protect them from this. And my government won’t. What country do I live in?!

When we march at Pride, you can’t imagine how many young people approach us and say, “Thank you for loving your kids.” I don’t even know how to respond to this.

Thank you for loving your kids? I tell them they are our kids, and we love them!

When others talk about gay people, they are talking about our children."

Doc

06-19-2016, 08:51 PM

I really see no point in linking any of the THOUSANDS of stories in support of the victims as a counter argument for the maybe dozen dumbasses who say moronic or so idiotic things. Many of those who have supported the victims and / or called out against the violence are faith based organizations. Some are even ones that the LGBT community has visciously attacked.

Doc

06-19-2016, 09:02 PM

But then part of me has to wonder if when the liberal agenda has successfully pushed thru elementary school curriculums where children are asked to identify themselves as
A) boy
B) girl
C) boy who likes boy (unsure of the non offensive term)
D) girl who likes girl (lesbian)
E) boy who wants to be girl (transgender)
F) girl who wants to be boy (transgender)
G) boy who likes boys and girls (bisexual)
H) girl who likes girls and boys (bisexual)

Now let's pose this multiple choice questions to second graders then wonder why they are confused.

OR

Keep the government out of it and let parents do their job because government does NOT do a better job teaching sexuality than a parent. See in my opinion this is all part of the unintended consequences of the liberal nanny state agenda

CitizenBBN

06-19-2016, 09:50 PM

Yeah, there are some crazies out there, not sure what the point is within the context of the discussion. No doubt gay people face those charges and issues, but I still think we may want to concentrate on the crazies who are actively trying to convince people to kill gays versus those who are just offensive.

Krank

06-19-2016, 10:25 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/19/lgbt-latinos-count-the-cost-of-the-orlando-massacre.html

The vast majority of the victims of the LGBT Pulse club massacre were Latino and Hispanic. Richard Blanco, the first openly gay Inaugural Poet, and other LGBT Latinos talk about its impact--and what being LGBT and Latino means.

Before I speak to Herb Sosa, the President of Unity Coalition, which advocates for LGBT Latinos/Hispanics in Florida, Sosa himself has been speaking to a friend who escaped from the LGBT Pulse nightclub in Orlando, where Omar Mateen shot and killed 49 people around him.

“Every one of my friend’s answers to me asking how he was or whatever was one word,” says Sosa. “People are affected physically and emotionally. There are so many layers, like survivors’ guilt: why did I survive, and the person next to me die? Should I have done more? Did I wimp out by not doing more? These are very real feelings.”

As I write this, the funerals of the people who died have begun, accompanied by many wrenching pictures of distraught relatives and friends.

Most were Latino and Hispanic. It was Pulse’s Latino night. "It’s a horrible situation,” says Sosa. “This has been a huge hit for the Latino and Hispanic communities." It was reported that 90 per cent of the victims were Latino/Hispanic, with 23 of the victims from Puerto Rico, specifically...

..."Pulse was a club that meant a lot to a lot of people," says Hector Constanzo of the Orlando Youth Alliance. "It’s a place where everyone could forget their troubles and be themselves. It was the first place where my cousin and I saw two guys dance together, two guys kissing.

"It was a place where I could be with my gay ‘family.’ It was an amazing feeling to be there, and it’s really sad that it’s taken 49 people to die for people to understand something about what LGBT people deal with on a regular basis.

"People need to wake the hell up, and understand that anti-gay violence and homophobia is a problem. We need to address it. At Pulse people could enjoy the happiness and freedom that they couldn’t have outside. It’s sad and terrifying that it’s gone."

Krank

06-20-2016, 09:00 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/muhsin-hendricks/orlando-muslim-homosexuality_b_10571444.html

"Islamic extremism, preached in mosques funded by militant Muslim sects, has hijacked Islam. It is this form of Islam that seeks to play on the innocence of ordinary Muslims who only seek to practice Islam to an extent that pleases their creator. As guilty as Omar Mateen may have been for committing mass murder, he, too was a victim of Islamic extremism, homophobia and Islamophobia.

Perhaps this is a time for the Muslim community to reassess its stance on sexual orientation and gender identity. The former is distinct from the atrocities committed by the inmates of Sodom and Gomorrah where sex was used for power and dominance; innocent men became victims of a power play and women become victims of temple prostitution. The orthodox belief that homosexuality is a sin — based on the story of Sodom and Gomorrah — is what leads to the nuances of homophobia around the massacre in Orlando.

My message on behalf of The Inner Circle is a call for us to amplify our stance against oppression in all its forms and against the divisive powers at play. It is a call for us to refocus our attention on peace and social justice, and it is a prayer of condolence for the innocent victims and their families."

bigsky

06-21-2016, 06:46 AM

"OM: My name is I pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi of the Islamic State." From the call transcript (from which the Attorney General tried to redact all references to Islam.)

Doc

06-21-2016, 10:42 AM

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/06/18/orlando-victims-manhattan-church-memorial/

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/florida/memorials-for-orlando-mass-shooting-victims/247527415

http://fox59.com/2016/06/13/flowers-candles-part-of-growing-memorial-for-victims-of-orlando-shooting/

http://pix11.com/2016/06/17/man-travels-1200-miles-to-create-memorial-for-orlando-victims-with-49-crosses/

https://www.facebook.com/events/234719866914077/

http://bungalower.com/event/orlando-rally-lake-eola-bandshell/

https://www.facebook.com/events/1380704888623393/

https://www.facebook.com/events/1111485722240848/

Doc

06-21-2016, 10:45 AM

http://www.villages-news.com/event-villages-honor-victims-mass-shooting-orlando/

http://today.ucf.edu/ucf-to-remember-pulse-victims-at-candlelight-vigil/

https://www.facebook.com/events/1320738334622514/

https://www.facebook.com/events/998504226934269/?notif_t=plan_user_invited&notif_id=1465924499478412

Krank

06-21-2016, 04:45 PM

http://www.theweek.com/articles/629008/twisted-logic-evangelical-colleges-welcoming-straight-atheists-rejecting-gay-christians

"At evangelical colleges, is being straight more important than believing in God?

You might expect that announcing your lack of faith would carry the worst possible social stigma at Asbury University, a conservative Christian college in Kentucky where chapel attendance is required and most classes begin with prayer. But for Taylor Darden, coming out as gay was worse.

"I was much more secretive about my sexuality than my agnosticism," said Darden, who graduated from Asbury in 2010.

Although I was teaching at Asbury while Darden was a student, our paths did not cross until after he graduated. Darden told me he eventually came back to the Christian faith, but considered himself agnostic in college. "It's definitely easier to be a non-believer than to be gay at places like Asbury."...

...A few years ago, a student in one of my journalism classes at Asbury discussed his atheism openly, with no noticeable reaction from the other students. I'm still in contact with him, so I recently asked him if he thought gay students were under more pressure at Asbury than atheists. "I couldn't imagine being an LGBT student on Asbury's campus," said the student, Stephen Gallutia, who graduated from Asbury in the spring. "Without a doubt, I believe that it would be harder than being an atheist."

In fact, atheist students get so much respect at Christian colleges, they can be elected to student government's highest office...

..."I choose to proclaim my atheism very proudly; I prefer to keep my sexuality quiet," said Eric O'Bannon, a bisexual member of Baylor's Secular Student Alliance...

...But what's even more troubling for some LGBT students is that the rules against same-sex intimacy show up right beside condemnation of "sexually exploitative or abusive behavior."

In reaction to that wording, a Messiah student, who spoke to me on condition of anonymity, said the comparison of same-sex intimacy to criminal sexual behavior reinforces negative connotations about the LGBT community. "Seeing the behavior as sinful alongside examples like sexual exploitation definitely doesn't help the stigma," said the student, who identifies as a queer bisexual. "It just feeds into the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' rhetoric."...

...Acceptance of LGBT Christians by evangelical colleges may start to improve as younger believers exert more influence on the debate. As a Pew Research Center report from last year noted, "Roughly half (51 percent) of evangelical Protestants in the millennial generation (born between 1981 and 1996) say homosexuality should be accepted by society."...

..."Strictly speaking, a man who self-identified as gay on Asbury's campus, at least while I was there, would have been looked at as someone fallen, someone in deliberate disobedience to God," said Darden, who now runs a theater program for adults with intellectual disabilities in Philadelphia. "Very few students would have admitted, even privately, to be considered gay, lesbian, or bi, although a good many admitted privately to 'struggling with homosexuality.'"

He added, "The word 'struggle' was key: It meant that you didn't want to be gay, you didn't have to be, and that you were fighting as hard as you possibly could to not be gay."...

...However, despite the setbacks, Darden's spiritual journey had a happy ending. "I returned to my Christian faith later," he said, "after I reconciled my sexuality with Christianity and found a welcoming church community."

Krank

06-21-2016, 06:34 PM

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-global-gay-rights-snap-story.html

Where the world stands on gay rights

Krank

06-22-2016, 07:56 PM

https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-alleging-omar-mateen-former-000000045.html

"The Orlando nightclub massacre was an act of revenge against gay Latin men not terrorism, alleges a man who claims to be the gunman’s former lover.

The man, wearing a prosthetic facial mask to disguise his features and using the pseudonym “Miguel,” made the accusations during an exclusive TV interview with Univision News.

Miguel said he and Mateen, 29, met on Grindr, a gay dating app, and had a two-month “friends with benefits” relationship last fall...

...Mateen’s rage on June 12, Miguel alleged, may have stemmed from an encounter in which Mateen told him he had sex with two Puerto Rican men, one of whom later revealed he was HIV positive.

“He adored Latinos, gay Latinos, with brown skin — but he felt rejected,” Miguel told Univision. “He felt used by them — there were moments in the Pulse nightclub that made him feel really bad. Guys used him. That really affected him. I believe this crazy horrible thing he did — that was revenge.”...

...“Miguel” said he went to the FBI after learning investigators were seeking formation about Omar Mateen. (Illustration courtesy FBI)
Mateen, an American born to Afghan immigrants, also struggled with his father’s view of Islam and hatred of homosexuals, Miguel said.

“Gay people is the devil and gay people have to die — that’s what his father told him,” Miguel recalled.

A day after the shooting, Seddique Mir Mateen, the gunman’s father, posted a video to Facebook in which he reportedly said, “God will punish those involved in homosexuality,” adding it’s “not an issue that humans should deal with.” The elder Mateen’s Facebook accounts now appear to be deleted.

Miguel said he and Mateen spent 15 to 20 nights together last fall, but stopped dating when Miguel moved from Orlando in late December.

The man said he asked that his identity be hidden because he is worried about his safety."