Donald Trump

[KSRBEvans]

As I watch the primary season unfold, it feels like we're watching history being made. Either Trump's the nominee and the GOP explodes, or he's not the nominee and he runs as a 3rd party candidate, sealing the deal for Hillary (and possibly exploding the GOP in the process, anyway).

It's like seeing a bad car wreck getting ready to happen--it's going to be horrible, but I can't look away. It just feels like an historic crossroads.

[Darrell KSR]

I have a sinking feeling.

Note - I have generally thought my friends' concerns about the country's well-being have been overstated. To some degree, I still do. But I feel some of it has merit. Scary.

[KeithKSR]

Trump will win the nomination, then likely defeat Hillary. Lots of anti-establishment feelings among the voters these days.

[kingcat]

I'll say this, if people hand trump the black box many of our problems in this country will disappear in a year, or maybe two if we're lucky.

[CitizenBBN]

I'll say this, if people hand trump the black box many of our problems in this country will disappear in a year, or maybe two if we're lucky.

Nah. He'll embarrass us repeatedly with his mouth, Biden but with more wit and a mean streak, but he's no fool and he's not stupid. His bluster is his negotiation tactic.

People said the same about Reagan in 1980, but his rhetoric and spending proved successful. It pays to have our enemies thinking we will respond with massive force and even that we're a little crazed and unpredictable. Obama is more predictable than the rising of the sun and look what has happened.

Trump is uncooth and a stunning stereotype of New York bluster, but he's highly intelligent and has proven he can run a massive, complex organization with near intuitive level ability.

We'll cringe at his misogynistic insults, his petty spats with the media and his adversaries, but in the end I bet he proposes more useful legislation than any President in a long time, with more focus on the details of spending and common sense policy, and I bet in foreign relations he has some of these self important potentates back in their heels.

And I'll be clear, I'm not a fan, but as one of the many who are sick of politics as usual, I'm willing to live with some rough edges to get someone who's actually run a business and doesn't have any love for and isn't beholden to the Washington system.

From the more liberal side, look at it this way: here's a man who is above any special interest. Wall Street has no hold on him b/c he doesn't need the money, nor is he tied to the establishment politicians or king maker donors. None of them.

That system is corrupt and a drag on all of us on either side of the aisle. Putting a wrench in it the size of Trump could do a lot of good for everyone.

Really he's the pro free market version of Bernie Sanders. Bernie isn't beholden b/c he won't take their money, Trump isn't beholden b/c he has more than they do.

[Doc]

I'll say this, if people hand trump the black box many of our problems in this country will disappear in a year, or maybe two if we're lucky.
.

I'm no Trump fan but will say this.... He won't take no "poo". People know they stand with him and there is no doubt who are his friends and who are not. He will play hard ball and that's what you want from a leader at times

[suncat05]

Trump is okay. I am not a big fan by any means, but given some of the alternatives and the machinations of the RNC against him, he might be the best choice.
Again, I am not a big Trump fan. But I will say this........if the rumors floating around of a "brokered convention" by the RNC turn out to be true, and in doing so they deny Trump the Republican nomination, then the proof of the GOP catering to outside interests instead of its membership will ruin the GOP. And may effectively hand the DNC control of our country for the next several general election cycles.
Of course, if the GOP denies Trump the nomination and he decides to run a 3rd party candidacy, he may very well be the next President anyway, just because the GOP will have really pissed off its membership and will have effectively committed political suicide.
I hate the very idea of a "brokered convention". If they do that, it means they don't give a damn about the American people or America, that all that matters to them is their damn political machine and the power within. Let this play out as it is intended to. Let the chips fall where they may.
And I am still very much in favor of building those hanging gallows on the Courthouse lawn!

[MickintheHam]

As I watch the primary season unfold, it feels like we're watching history being made. Either Trump's the nominee and the GOP explodes, or he's not the nominee and he runs as a 3rd party candidate, sealing the deal for Hillary (and possibly exploding the GOP in the process, anyway).

It's like seeing a bad car wreck getting ready to happen--it's going to be horrible, but I can't look away. It just feels like an historic crossroads.

I share your views. In all my years I have never missed voting, every race including special elections at the local level. Here I sit on the eve of the Super Tuesday election in AL with no clue as to who will receive my presidential vote. There is no need to vote in the Democrat primary. That's settled in this state. I would have to be dead drunk to vote for Trump or Cruz. I met Kasich 23 years ago and was very impressed with him. He has no chance. I love Ben Carson. He has no chance. That leaves Rubio. He sends a positive message that appeals to younger voters, I'm not sure he is ready for the job. He has almost no chance. Liquor is pretty expensive in Alabama so I doubt I can get dead drunk before tomorrow.

My guess is the GOP is on its last legs as the party we knew growing up. I believe it is over for them. We will see a new party emerge after this election. Dems have serious problems as well. It will take them longer to reorganize themselves. The Super Delegate issue will force major reforms.

[KentuckyWildcat]

My feelings are very mixed on Trump. I love that he has taken on the establishment and won. Love that he has engaged new voters. Love that he is not "PC". I agree with a lot of his thoughts.

But I can't say I love him being our next President. Then I look at the others and there is not one person I really like this year.

I think I might start drinking and just crash at Citizen's house and watch all of this unfold and sober up when it is all over.

[suncat05]

We may be witnessing some major changes in both parties after this election.
Truthfully, I don't care much for either party anymore. The best thing that could happen is to see both sides torn apart and either let them die or rebuild themselves into something else more credible. If that's even possible.
We need to clean both houses and fix it to where career politicians no longer exist.
The POTUS should only be able to serve ONE TERM IN OFFICE, a term of 6 years. No re-election allowed. A U.S. Senator should only be allowed ONE TERM OF 6 YEARS IN OFFICE, No re-election allowed, to include not being able to run for office in the U.S. House of Representatives. A Representative should only serve either two three year terms or the current two year term not to exceed more than three consecutive terms only, with no re-election allowed after that, and not being eligible for election into the U.S. Senate after serving in the House.

[suncat05]

And not only that, but these guys should not be allowed to be lobbyists for any of the special interest groups either. Once their term in office is over, no more federal government service should be allowed. Period.

I despise these career politicians. Career politicians are a cancer that needs to be removed from existence. And I am even more in favor of a gallows on the Courthouse lawn.

[Doc]

I share your views. In all my years I have never missed voting, every race including special elections at the local level. Here I sit on the eve of the Super Tuesday election in AL with no clue as to who will receive my presidential vote. There is no need to vote in the Democrat primary. That's settled in this state. I would have to be dead drunk to vote for Trump or Cruz. I met Kasich 23 years ago and was very impressed with him. He has no chance. I love Ben Carson. He has no chance. That leaves Rubio. He sends a positive message that appeals to younger voters, I'm not sure he is ready for the job. He has almost no chance. Liquor is pretty expensive in Alabama so I doubt I can get dead drunk before tomorrow.

My guess is the GOP is on its last legs as the party we knew growing up. I believe it is over for them. We will see a new party emerge after this election. Dems have serious problems as well. It will take them longer to reorganize themselves. The Super Delegate issue will force major reforms.

I've been drinking with Mick in the past. It takes a hell of a lot of booze to get him dead drunk.

[MickintheHam]

Doc, I have never been more dissatisfied with an election in my life. I like the message Trump sends to the Washington insiders and party bosses. I don't care for him. He says too much that is shallow. You can't pick up all the illegals and send them packing without first a hearing. What are we going to do? Suspend the rules as Obama has done? And while he uses some language and phrases I have used, I don't use them publicly. If I vote for Kasich or Cruz in Alabama, I throw away the vote as it requires at least 20% vote to get a proportion of the delegates. As it stands now Kasich, Cruz and Carson will fall below that threshold. It is a ridiculous process for electing a party nominee. We'll get what we deserve.

[CitizenBBN]

Mick it is a disturbing situation. LIke you there's a lot I agree with in principle with Trump, I just wish it wasn't him personally the one in that seat.

Then there's the silly stuff. I am all for immigration reform and securing our borders, it's absurd we've allowed this to continue with no legal process in place for decades, but sending the 101st out to round up everyone here illegally and just dropping them off?

The media are holding back on him in hopes he wins, then they're going to play the biggest game of "gotcha" we've ever seen. ANd he's going to walk into most of it without even thinking b/c of his hubris and direct style.

BUt losing to Hillary is a non-option. There hasn't been a more corrupt, power mongering candidate for this office in my lifetime.

[kingcat]

A President must be a diplomat first and foremost. for me, the decision is based on who I trust the lives of my children and grandchildren with.

The anti establishment vote does not take them into consideration. In most cases, it is a vote against what they're programmed to hate.

As for who I like, for the first time in a very ln time I would be tempted to cross party lines and vote Rubio. I like him and trust him.

Although I do dislike some of his policies.

[CitizenBBN]

Rubio would be my first choice. He's the establishment candidate but I think he could get some things done and he's smart and capable.

This isn't a vote against things people are "programmed" to dislike, neither for Trump or Sanders. It's a broad cross party frustration with the establishment of both parties. The Democrats see their party as having sold out on the broader liberal agenda and being about staying in power, and Republicans feel the same way about the GOP, that they sold out to be Democrat lite and voting for spending and regulation.

ALL of them (us) think the washington / Wall street power block works against BOTH of those sets of values. It's anti-free market and certainly anti-liberal. So on the left you get Sanders and democratic socialism and on the right you get ANYONE who can win the GOP nomination and blow up the establishment.

[Doc]

Rubio was / is my candidate however his recent antics have soured me a bit as they have made him.far.less presidential in my opinion. I also found Christie quite palatable but out of the race. Carson is clueless! No doubt he is smart but foreign policy is just something he doesn't seem to get.

[ukpumacat]

I have never visited this forum before (that I remember). But, I just had to come here and see what Kentuckians (mostly) were saying about all of this stuff.

I'm about as moderate and Independent as they get politically. I am conservative on some issues and liberal on others. I vote for candidates of both parties all the time. So, this election is just fascinating for me.

Having said that, here are my "raised in the South, adulthood in California" opinions:
I would never vote for Donald Trump. Ever. And oddly, I appreciate some of his moderate views. And certainly his outsider point of view. But I don't trust him. At all. I don't trust what he stands for. Believes. I don't trust what he would do. I don't trust who he really would surround himself with. I just don't trust him.
He is a narcissistic, media manipulating genius.
He is the wrong man at the right time. In other words, people on both sides are desperate for an outsider. But Trump (although a pseudo outsider) is the wrong guy. He has tapped into the pulse of where so many Americans are...but that's also his problem. He's running this campaign like someone on a reality show where the audience votes them off. It's crazy to me. And it's working to some degree.
I actually think he would get his ass kicked by Hillary. In fact, I think it would be one of the more lopsided victories in Presidential history (non incumbent). He can't win minirities. He can't win women. He can't win most democrats. And he won't win over all republicans. Not only that, but he would energize the democrats to come out and vote in a way Hillary never could.

Cruz can't win imo. He's too rigid. He can't win independents.
I like Rubio. He should have been the nominee if they wanted to win. But he's now pulled a Chris Christie (ironically). He's a suicide bomber. He's going to kill himself for the "greater good of taking Trump down".
Kasich could have won my vote. He's a moderate and he's sensible. I trust him. But unfortunately politics is now a reality show and he's a nice Bachelor who won't kiss all the girls and sleep around so his ratings suck.
Hillary will win. She will be a chameleon and somehow convince people she's an "outsider". Or try. She will beat Bernie. And I think likely beat Trump pretty easily. This KKK stuff is going to kill him.

To me, the only alternative to Hillary winning (and that's not a terrible thing to me as I think she is similar to Bill and quite moderate actually) are two remote possibilities:
1. Cruz and Rubio team up. I would love to see Kasich and Rubio as they would be a much better national and general election ticket. But it wouldn't be enough to beat Trump. Cruz and Rubio would be.
Oddly, the only way I see that happening is if Rubio takes the 2nd chair. He might. He's not looking great in Florida. And Cruz will win Texas. Plus, I don't see Cruz taking chair 2.
2. Trump declares his "team" early on and chooses a diverse and moderate group.
This is his only shot to me. And I still don't think it will be enough. His biggest problem here is the people who could help him (McCain, Paul, Ryan, Haley, etc) most likely won't support him strongly or be willing to run with him. It can't just be a VP. He has to sell a team.

Sorry, a long book there. All just my opinion of course.
I still think there is a tiny outside chance Rubio pulls a rabbit out of his house and wins.
Either way, I think this is genuinely the end of the Republican Party as we know it.
I genuinely think a 3rd party is a distinct possibility now. A party of outsiders who don't take stands on social issues as much as economic ones. Libertarian mostly.

[bigsky]

I got nothin. We started with a lot of choices and we are down to smart and creepy, Mussolini, doogie, and two guys with no shot.

Trump won "the last debate". He got pounded and both guys scored big shots and he didnt go down. I swear I still think he is a trojan horse he is so bad.

Why Carson outlasted Christie or Joe the plumber is beyond my understanding.

Christie endorsing Trump, though, shows he goes where the wind blows.

Ted Cruz is beyond odd. Super smart, disliked by everyone in the Senate. If you're not a decent person on the human scale, you cant be trusted.

Rubio has outlasted and outplayed but in the last debate he looked like a grinning fool, an unserious lightweight.

Kasich is as exciting as dirty dishes, but he is competent.

The original tea party mantra was "stop spending stop spending stop spending". Now it's "elect a fascist". Fail!

Between Barry Oh, the Donald, and 20 trillion in debt? The republic has fallen.

[KSRBEvans]

I was thinking yesterday about the creed for my college fraternity:


The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe.

When I think of the better Presidents we've had, I think they fulfill most of these criteria. Would Trump? How many others this year would? Or in recent years?

Maybe it's not relevant, but something I was thinking about.

[bigsky]

I was thinking yesterday about the creed for my college fraternity: When I think of the better Presidents we've had, I think they fulfill most of these criteria. Would Trump? How many others this year would? Or in recent years? Maybe it's not relevant, but something I was thinking about. Absolutely relevant

[Darrell KSR]

This has been a very interesting thread.

BEvans, that creed is stellar.

[ShoesSwayedBlue]

Really like that creed as well.

As for Trump, he is going to do a few things that seemed to be impossible a year ago: Make Hillary sympathetic enough to be elected, give the Democrats back control of the Senate, get the Republicans to nominate a pro abortion, pro universal healthcare candidate whose personal morals would make Bill Clinton blush, and thus tear apart the GOP. Amazing. Astonishing.

[ukpumacat]

Really like that creed as well.

As for Trump, he is going to do a few things that seemed to be impossible a year ago: Make Hillary sympathetic enough to be elected, give the Democrats back control of the Senate, get the Republicans to nominate a pro abortion, pro universal healthcare candidate whose personal morals would make Bill Clinton blush, and thus tear apart the GOP. Amazing. Astonishing.

It really is. I am not even a Republican and I can't stop watching the debates, etc. Its truly a Reality TV show. I listened to an interview with John McCain yesterday. He fits much of the Creed mentioned above. He was saying how sad and embarrassed he was at what has become of his party. The interviewer, correctly so, said that because of Trump there was no way to get any media attention unless you started slinging mud as Rubio has done. He even said that McCain was criticized for not doing it more against Obama.
His answer was stellar. He basically said that is true only if you care more about winning than you do your own integrity, ethics, and honor. He didn't and goes to sleep at night just fine.

[MickintheHam]

Well, I held my nose, closed my eyes and took a drink! I voted to legalize Sunday alcohol sales. I then took a deep breath and voted for Rubio. It wan't easy as Kasich is clearly the class (what there is of it) in this 5 years old and upward claiming race. But with the 20% minimum vote required to received delegates, it made no sense to vote for someone who could not reach that level. The only saving grace was I was able to vote for a fellow UK grad who was running as a convention delegate pledged to the Florida Senator. I know I can trust her if the convention goes all to Hell.

[KSRBEvans]

Here in KY the only recent poll (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/ky/kentucky_republican_presidential_primary-3834.html) shows Rubio running 2nd to Trump, so my interests in voting for Rubio and striking an anti-Trump blow align. But if Rubio were down and Cruz or Kasich were in 2nd, I'd be voting for one of them.

[bigsky]

Well, I held my nose, closed my eyes and took a drink! I voted to legalize Sunday alcohol sales. I then took a deep breath and voted for Rubio. It wan't easy as Kasich is clearly the class (what there is of it) in this 5 years old and upward claiming race. But with the 20% minimum vote required to received delegates, it made no sense to vote for someone who could not reach that level. The only saving grace was I was able to vote for a fellow UK grad who was running as a convention delegate pledged to the Florida Senator. I know I can trust her if the convention goes all to Hell. Thank you

[Darrell KSR]

Well, I held my nose, closed my eyes and took a drink! I voted to legalize Sunday alcohol sales. I then took a deep breath and voted for Rubio. It wan't easy as Kasich is clearly the class (what there is of it) in this 5 years old and upward claiming race. But with the 20% minimum vote required to received delegates, it made no sense to vote for someone who could not reach that level. The only saving grace was I was able to vote for a fellow UK grad who was running as a convention delegate pledged to the Florida Senator. I know I can trust her if the convention goes all to Hell.
On my way now. I'm consistent with your post.

[KSRBEvans]

BTW, Trump is at a rally in Louisville tonight, which I expect to unleash all kinds of fresh hell. This guy was seen heading down Broadway to the event:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/Stay-puft-marshmallow-man.jpg

[Darrell KSR]

On my way now. I'm consistent with your post.
And done. Sallie has two votes.

[KeithKSR]

I really like Rubio, but it will be tough to stop the Trump train. That train will run Hillary over.

Trump scares the establishment wings of both parties, he is their worst nightmare. He is not held hostage by any special interest groups and will simply refuse to bow to them.

The oddity is that Trump is the kind of candidate our Founding Fathers had in mind. They never wanted career politicians to run the government.

[CitizenBBN]

One thing I really like about Trump is that he's rich and doesn't care, he won't owe anyone anything when he gets there, ought to make it very interesting.

The problem is that he's a walking gaff and is as likable as a porcupine. He's the opposite of "Presidential" in his entire manner.

But there were some pretty stunning characters among the Founding Fathers too, including Ben Franklin who was a partying, womanizing guy with an equally brash wit. He wasn't an ass though, people actually liked him.

[Doc]

I have never visited this forum before (that I remember). But, I just had to come here and see what Kentuckians (mostly) were saying about all of this stuff.

I'm about as moderate and Independent as they get politically. I am conservative on some issues and liberal on others. I vote for candidates of both parties all the time. So, this election is just fascinating for me.

Having said that, here are my "raised in the South, adulthood in California" opinions:
I would never vote for Donald Trump. Ever. And oddly, I appreciate some of his moderate views. And certainly his outsider point of view. But I don't trust him. At all. I don't trust what he stands for. Believes. I don't trust what he would do. I don't trust who he really would surround himself with. I just don't trust him.
He is a narcissistic, media manipulating genius.
He is the wrong man at the right time. In other words, people on both sides are desperate for an outsider. But Trump (although a pseudo outsider) is the wrong guy. He has tapped into the pulse of where so many Americans are...but that's also his problem. He's running this campaign like someone on a reality show where the audience votes them off. It's crazy to me. And it's working to some degree.
I actually think he would get his ass kicked by Hillary. In fact, I think it would be one of the more lopsided victories in Presidential history (non incumbent). He can't win minirities. He can't win women. He can't win most democrats. And he won't win over all republicans. Not only that, but he would energize the democrats to come out and vote in a way Hillary never could.

Cruz can't win imo. He's too rigid. He can't win independents.
I like Rubio. He should have been the nominee if they wanted to win. But he's now pulled a Chris Christie (ironically). He's a suicide bomber. He's going to kill himself for the "greater good of taking Trump down".
Kasich could have won my vote. He's a moderate and he's sensible. I trust him. But unfortunately politics is now a reality show and he's a nice Bachelor who won't kiss all the girls and sleep around so his ratings suck.
Hillary will win. She will be a chameleon and somehow convince people she's an "outsider". Or try. She will beat Bernie. And I think likely beat Trump pretty easily. This KKK stuff is going to kill him.

To me, the only alternative to Hillary winning (and that's not a terrible thing to me as I think she is similar to Bill and quite moderate actually) are two remote possibilities:
1. Cruz and Rubio team up. I would love to see Kasich and Rubio as they would be a much better national and general election ticket. But it wouldn't be enough to beat Trump. Cruz and Rubio would be.
Oddly, the only way I see that happening is if Rubio takes the 2nd chair. He might. He's not looking great in Florida. And Cruz will win Texas. Plus, I don't see Cruz taking chair 2.
2. Trump declares his "team" early on and chooses a diverse and moderate group.
This is his only shot to me. And I still don't think it will be enough. His biggest problem here is the people who could help him (McCain, Paul, Ryan, Haley, etc) most likely won't support him strongly or be willing to run with him. It can't just be a VP. He has to sell a team.

Sorry, a long book there. All just my opinion of course.
I still think there is a tiny outside chance Rubio pulls a rabbit out of his house and wins.
Either way, I think this is genuinely the end of the Republican Party as we know it.
I genuinely think a 3rd party is a distinct possibility now. A party of outsiders who don't take stands on social issues as much as economic ones. Libertarian mostly.


A few things to note. You mentioned you don't trust Trump. I'm not sure I do either but while with "the Donald", I'm not sure, with Hillary I KNOW I don't trust her. So for me it comes down to which is worse, somebody you're not sure or somebody you know?

Second, I think a whole lot of people have underestimated the disgust for the gov't that people have. You mentioned that Trump is the catalyst for a Clinton victory. Part of me says the opposite. A year ago Hillary was a shoe in. It was pretty much a foregone conclusion that she would be the next President. However I'm actually starting to believe that the one thing that can stop her is Trump. Talk about energizing! The guy has every pissed off American on his side and while that might alienate many hard conservatives, it's the hard conservativism that has lost the last 2 elections. Social issues are killing the far right. Trump seems less beholden to that and that is a good thing. Plus I'd love to see somebody tell the leader of Iran EXACTLY what they think of them. Screw the political correctness. Time for us to put on our big boy pants. Call them a bunch of terrorists. If they don't like it, tough! Tell the Mexican's to immigrate legally even if it hurts their feelings. Tell Chiiiinaaa to bite me on the trade issues, etc.... I got no problem with that. I'm tired of coddling our enemies and people who want to do us harm.

The GOP ticket will be Trump/Christie. Chris Christie is positioning himself for the #2 spot quite well. Personally I don't think its a bad one. As for the "end of the republican party", far from it. What it will lead to is a retooling of the party into one that is more inclusive and less rigid. Hopefully the crusty old farts that run the party will head for the hills and leave it to the more reasonable central leaning ones who actually do want less government and less intrusion into their lives.

[suncat05]

I am pretty much in agreement with Doc.

Where the problem is going to be is with the RNC @ the Convention. If Trump garners the number of delegates he needs to be the GOP nominee and the RNC blocks that, there will be a major, major problem for the GOP as a whole entity. Like him or not, and again, I myself am not a fan, if he has the delegates to win the the RNC won't nominate him, then he will peel away from the GOP and basically dissolve the GOP. But another larger issue looms in all of this: if the RNC refuses his nomination, then not only are they doing that in public view, but they're telling us, the American people, that they are going to do what THEY want, no matter what, and that we have no voice in the matter. THAT WE, THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE, DO NOT MATTER AND HAVE NO VOICE IN THIS! Say what?? We don't matter? Just shut up and let "them" take care of this?? No, that's how we will have arrived at this sorry conclusion, because we let the career politicians go unchecked for decades now.
And from there it all goes downhill even further. I despise these people. I hate even giving them that designation, because they're not even really that anymore. And I have not served my country for all of these years, followed my parents lead and been a good and productive citizen to be told that my American citizenship means nothing anymore.

[UKHistory]

My guy is John Kasich. I think he is the single hope the nation and the Republican party have.

Rubio, like Obama, is a first term US senator who is not prepared to lead the country or work with folks on the other side.

And finding a middle ground between the extremes of the two parties is critical for the country to be successful.

Cruz to me is the second coming of Joe McCarthy. Some here liked shutting down the government. Me not so much. And I think most in the senate viewed Cruz's efforts as more about making a name for himself than defending the nation.

Trump is a loud mouth who speaks his mind but I don't think has the tact or the experience to lead the country and work with other countries.

Kasich as a governor is a head of state. He has experience in Congress and is moderate. Experience as a governor means a lot as being senator does not prepare you to serve as a head of state.

On the other side, Hilary is someone I don't think should be in office for a variety of reasons (the email security breach being near the top of the list). But on a day when you have candidates mocking the hand size of their competitors, Hilary looks far more presidential than I would like.

A brokered Republican convention would some television. It might also destroy the Republican party if the RNC works to keep Trump from being the party nominee despite having more supporters than the other candidates.

[suncat05]

Rubio had me until the whole "Gang of Eight" situation. I am not sure he is totally trustworthy now.
Kasich I like, but he doesn't have enough clout by himself.
Not a fan of Christie.
Not of fan of Trump, but I do like some of the things he says. Do not agree with everything he says, but some of it is gold.
McCarthy's methods were all wrong, but he was correct t in his assertions of Communist infiltrations into the U.S. government and Hollywood. His hearings just ended up being good theater, and not much else. But this is where I disagree with you History........Cruz and McCarthy are light years apart except for being conservatives.
Just my humble opinion.

[ukpumacat]

We will see, that's for sure. Politics is fun for me because I don't get too worked up about it.

I still think Trump loses to Hillary. He and Christie are so unlikable. And as I said, all of the excitement Trump brings with new voters helps Hillary as well. He will do more to bring out the vote against him as he does for him. Jmo of course. But a lot of people hate him. More than that, I know many republican friends who say they will never vote for him.
I could easily see a 3rd party candidate getting in the race.

Doc, I completely agree that the rigid social issues have neutered the Republican Party. However, those people aren't going away. They are a huge voting bloc and many of them are voting for Trump and Cruz (and Carson for that matter). I think Trump has just "played the role" of a conservative and honed in on two hot button issue to change the dialogue. It's worked.
My single biggest issue with him (and this is a huge can of worms) is that I think he plays on the bigotry and racism that still exists in America. I'm starting to honestly believe that. Forget the KKK stuff. But his comments about women, Mexicans, Native Americans and Muslims are striking a chord for a lot of people. And I'm not sure it's a good chord.

[Thedonnie123]

And I'm not sure it's a good chord.

It depends what you consider good, I guess.

The way I see it is he's exposed exactly how much bigotry is still alive in this country. I knew it was still prevalent, especially in the South, but the amount of unbridled hate that people around his campaign feel comfortable with showing publically is incredible. I have a hard time believing Trump himself believes in all of this garbage himself, but is enough of an opportunist to play it for a nomination.

[Doc]

I'm not all that worked up about the bigotry and racism stuff. Heck, for the last 8 years I've been called a racist by the President, and its like water on a duck's back.... or Bill Clinton after a session with a white house intern..... it just rolls off.

Over the last few days I've chuckled over the KKK thing. Disavow David Duke and the KKK? Why? Duke said he liked Trump. OK. Its not like they are buddies and friends. Its not like Trump is looking at Duke to be his running mate because they share ideas. Trump has no control over who says they like him. Duke has every right to support whomever he wants. As for the KKK, Trump wasn't in the KKK so why would he disavow something he never vowed to? The definition of disavow is to disclaim knowledge of, connection with, or responsibility for; disown; repudiate:-- None of those pertain to Trump. He has no connection to the KKK nor is he responsible for the KKK. So what exactly is he "disavowing"?

What some see as bigotry and racism I see as bluntness and lack of political correctness. Of course being a New Yorker, 99% of what he says is mild compared to what most New Yorkers say. He has never stated minorities are "lesser", only that he wants them to follow the same rules others do. Much of his appeal to others is his brashness and willingness to say what he believes. Personally I'm not all that fond of how he says things. Hey, I agree Rosie O'Donnell is a fat pig but I wish he would say it publicly... and saying that doesn't mean he hates women, just Rosie O'Donnell. The guy has hammered, Jeb Bush, Cruz and Rubio too. He is an equal opportunity insulter. Now if he just insulted women or blacks or hispanics, etc... then maybe he could be called a racist but that isn't the case. Now don't get me wrong, I'm NOT a Trump supporter. He isn't my first choice, or my second, third or fourth one either. But he isn't the LAST choice.

[MickintheHam]

I would like to see Kasich run as VP if the The Donald gets the nomination. That should placate party leaders and give Trump a solid running mate who can handle the tasks he is delegated. (You will see a working VP if Trump is elected).

With all due respect to UK History, I agree we should never shut down the government. What we need is about a 25% reduction if the Federal Government work force.

[MickintheHam]

It depends what you consider good, I guess.

The way I see it is he's exposed exactly how much bigotry is still alive in this country. I knew it was still prevalent, especially in the South, but the amount of unbridled hate that people around his campaign feel comfortable with showing publically is incredible. I have a hard time believing Trump himself believes in all of this garbage himself, but is enough of an opportunist to play it for a nomination.

I have to take exception to your pejorative comment about the south. People frequently say what you have posted. But racism is likely much worse in places like Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and Massachusetts. Boston and Detroit areas are two of the worst I have ever experienced. I remember as a kid Dearborn Michigan was horrible. It was all white and racial profiling was a way of life for anyone of color driving through town. Today Gross Pointe is much the same. Boston may still be one of the most racist places in the World. They still like their athletes white in Boston. Black athletes in Boston until the last few years have never been embraced by New Englanders. And while we are at it remember the white cops in Cleveland and Chicago. And does anyone believe there was no racism in Ferguson, MO?

And let's not forget the racism that exists in many large cities such as Baltimore and other cities that are predominantly African American. It goes both ways. Let's put an end to the comments about racism in the South. Racism isn't just about the South. It's just convenient for some to paint it that way. It would be very interesting to study the Trump vote in Massachusetts to see why people there flocked to the Donald.

[Catonahottinroof]

In Urban parts of Detroit Michigan it's far more than black/white. The middle eastern population has brought a new level of racial hatred to that area.

[MickintheHam]

You are absolutely correct COAHTR. The population of Dearborn is not almost 100% Middle Eastern.

[Thedonnie123]

I have to take exception to your pejorative comment about the south. People frequently say what you have posted. But racism is likely much worse in places like Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and Massachusetts. Boston and Detroit areas are two of the worst I have ever experienced. I remember as a kid Dearborn Michigan was horrible. It was all white and racial profiling was a way of life for anyone of color driving through town. Today Gross Pointe is much the same. Boston may still be one of the most racist places in the World. They still like their athletes white in Boston. Black athletes in Boston until the last few years have never been embraced by New Englanders. And while we are at it remember the white cops in Cleveland and Chicago. And does anyone believe there was no racism in Ferguson, MO?

And let's not forget the racism that exists in many large cities such as Baltimore and other cities that are predominantly African American. It goes both ways. Let's put an end to the comments about racism in the South. Racism isn't just about the South. It's just convenient for some to paint it that way. It would be very interesting to study the Trump vote in Massachusetts to see why people there flocked to the Donald.
Man. This is why I usually stay away from this part of the board.

I don't just say that willy-nilly repeating stereotypes. I say I knew about it. That's because most of my family are from different areas in the south and many of them, my own father included, are openly racist. It's less about black people than it is middle easterners.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[Thedonnie123]

Man. This is why I usually stay away from this part of the board.

I don't just say that willy-nilly repeating stereotypes. I say I knew about it. That's because most of my family are from different areas in the south and many of them, my own father included, are openly racist. It's less about black people than it is middle easterners.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Also, what my post was meant to say, perhaps I wasn't clear, is that I knew of what I had seen in the south, but this campaign has shown it to be endemic throughout the country. It's clearly not isolated in the "SEC states."

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[Catonahottinroof]

I've had to work there in a few instances. It can seem like another country. It got to the point I'd bring my passport and go to Windsor Ontario to eat dinner and for entertainment.

[KSRBEvans]

IMHO barring unforeseen circumstances*, we're looking at 2 terms of Hillary Clinton. Trump will split the party (to get a small taste, go on Twitter and search #nevertrump) and insure an HRC election. If the GOP actually tries what is IMHO a cockeyed strategy of denying Trump enough delegates to win and then throwing it to someone other than Trump at the convention, that will also splinter the party and throw it to HRC.



*--Unforeseen circumstances, like an HRC indictment after her IT guy gets granted immunity (http://www.wsj.com/articles/former-clinton-staffer-granted-immunity-in-email-probe-1457017878). I wonder what Joe Biden must be thinking about his decision not to run....

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4WirtqIYAERVMQ.jpg

[Doc]

Then today, Mitt come out and blasts Trump. Too bad Mitt didn't have enough hair on his manhood do to that 4 years ago vs Obama. If he had, perhaps he would have won. Funny that he has the stones to attack a Republican candidate but didn't have the stones to attack a democratic one. THAT tells you a whole lot about the GOP establishment and it pretty much describes why the electorate is so disgusted with them. They will coddle to the left but attack one of the own.

[suncat05]

Racism just exists. Not everyone, and for the most part, most people in this country don't ascribe to that nonsense.
But some do. We see it a lot more now than we used to, but we also have more interactive media available to us now than at any other time in our history.
From my point of view, I don't think it's Americans so much as others coming into our country and bringing their deep-rooted prejudices with them from wherever they're coming in from.
Most of the racial comments that I hear come from minorities that have contact with the judicial system.

[suncat05]

Then today, Mitt come out and blasts Trump. Too bad Mitt didn't have enough hair on his manhood do to that 4 years ago vs Obama. If he had, perhaps he would have won. Funny that he has the stones to attack a Republican candidate but didn't have the stones to attack a democratic one. THAT tells you a whole lot about the GOP establishment and it pretty much describes why the electorate is so disgusted with them. They will coddle to the left but attack one of the own.

With all of the talk of a "brokered convention" that is being tossed about, it would not surprise me in the least to find out that the D's & the R's ARE WORKING TOGETHER ON THIS, and should that turn out to be the case, then it is proof that we as American citizens have no say in this election. If the voting public decides they want Trump as their GOP nominee, then I want to believe the matter has been settled. But should that not be the case, then it is my opinion that something else needs to happen, for better or for worse. And if the GOP & the RNC decide that is the route they're going to take, then the consequences for them needs to be bad and ugly.

[Darrell KSR]

IMHO barring unforeseen circumstances*, we're looking at 2 terms of Hillary Clinton. Trump will split the party (to get a small taste, go on Twitter and search #nevertrump) and insure an HRC election. If the GOP actually tries what is IMHO a cockeyed strategy of denying Trump enough delegates to win and then throwing it to someone other than Trump at the convention, that will also splinter the party and throw it to HRC.



*--Unforeseen circumstances, like an HRC indictment after her IT guy gets granted immunity (http://www.wsj.com/articles/former-clinton-staffer-granted-immunity-in-email-probe-1457017878). I wonder what Joe Biden must be thinking about his decision not to run....

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4WirtqIYAERVMQ.jpg
Most likely scenario in my opinion.

[suncat05]

If our votes and our wishes as American citizens no longer matter, then the politicians don't matter either, and it's way past time to deal with them. Harshly.

I know many of you do not or will not agree with me about this. Many of you may advocate "working this out somehow". But if they deny the American people their choice of representation to lead this nation in the White House, then it means our government no longer represents us or our best interests anymore. That means we don't matter anymore. I am not willing to accept that. Are you?

[ukpumacat]

Then today, Mitt come out and blasts Trump. Too bad Mitt didn't have enough hair on his manhood do to that 4 years ago vs Obama. If he had, perhaps he would have won. Funny that he has the stones to attack a Republican candidate but didn't have the stones to attack a democratic one. THAT tells you a whole lot about the GOP establishment and it pretty much describes why the electorate is so disgusted with them. They will coddle to the left but attack one of the own.

Throughout the past few weeks, "establishment" is a word that has been thrown around a lot. I don't consider Mitt "establishment". He's never held office. He is a businessman. In fact, every single elected official did something for work the day before they were elected. If Trump were to become President, he will be a "politician" the next day.
And I also don't buy that Trump isn't beholden to anyone just because he is self-funding his campaign. That guy has deals and loyalty to a lot of people, businesses, etc.

[ukpumacat]

I thought this was an excellent article on how Rubio and Cruz can BOTH stop Trump and allow voters to decide who wins. I would prefer it be Rubio and Kasich, but not sure that combo would be enough.
I have heard many say that these guys should "work together", but this lays out exactly how they could do that and honor voters wishes.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/432261/ted-cruz-marco-rubio

[KSRBEvans]

Throughout the past few weeks, "establishment" is a word that has been thrown around a lot. I don't consider Mitt "establishment". He's never held office. He is a businessman. In fact, every single elected official did something for work the day before they were elected. If Trump were to become President, he will be a "politician" the next day.
And I also don't buy that Trump isn't beholden to anyone just because he is self-funding his campaign. That guy has deals and loyalty to a lot of people, businesses, etc.

Mitt's never held federal office, but was Massachusetts Governor from 03-07.

However, I do agree that "establishment" is thrown around too much. It's usually used as "any candidate with whom I disagree," when everybody knows the proper definition is "anyone named Bush." :D

[KeithKSR]

We aren't going to see a brokered convention. When you get to the winner take all states Trump is going to roll in a bunch of delegates fast.

[dan_bgblue]

IMHO barring unforeseen circumstances*, we're looking at 2 terms of Hillary Clinton. Trump will split the party (to get a small taste, go on Twitter and search #nevertrump) and insure an HRC election. If the GOP actually tries what is IMHO a cockeyed strategy of denying Trump enough delegates to win and then throwing it to someone other than Trump at the convention, that will also splinter the party and throw it to HRC.


BE, that was the Clinton/Trump plan from the beginning. Unfortunately the American people are to stupid, dense, or don't care about the fact that she is a criminal that should not be allowed to run for office.

[dan_bgblue]

I thought this was an excellent article on how Rubio and Cruz can BOTH stop Trump and allow voters to decide who wins. I would prefer it be Rubio and Kasich, but not sure that combo would be enough.
I have heard many say that these guys should "work together", but this lays out exactly how they could do that and honor voters wishes.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/432261/ted-cruz-marco-rubio

I do not see it happening, but could fully support the idea. Like you though, I wish Kasich was teamed with Rubio in that scenario.

[ukpumacat]

Mitt's never held federal office, but was Massachusetts Governor from 03-07.

However, I do agree that "establishment" is thrown around too much. It's usually used as "any candidate with whom I disagree," when everybody knows the proper definition is "anyone named Bush." :D

Duh, totally forgot he was governor.

[ShoesSwayedBlue]

BE, that was the Clinton/Trump plan from the beginning. Unfortunately the American people are to stupid, dense, or don't care about the fact that she is a criminal that should not be allowed to run for office.

I have more than a few friends who believe the Trump phenomenon is a Trojan horse for the Democrats. I think Trump started it for attention and it took hold and he ran with it. Hollywood could have never sold the script.

[UKHistory]

Three of the people I am closest too ave said something to that effect. I think I agree.

[bigsky]

I have more than a few friends who believe the Trump phenomenon is a Trojan horse for the Democrats. I think Trump started it for attention and it took hold and he ran with it. Hollywood could have never sold the script. I'm one of those

[UKHistory]

Following the Nevada primary, I shook my head as Trump said how he liked the uneducated. He repeated the statement over and over. Folks just cheered. It is crazy in my mind.

[ukpumacat]

Well, I wouldn't put anything past him, but I don't think Trump is a planned Trojan horse.
I just think he is an egotistical narcissist who believes he can win anything. And I think he thinks he can convince people of anything. So I think he saw the Republican Party as the easier party to become a chameleon to.
And frankly, in that regard, he's done a pretty damn good job (as sad as that is).
Oddly, I don't think he's that different than Hillary. I think both are pretty "flexible" when it comes to their core beliefs. And in a weird way, both would probably be ok as a President only in the sense that they would probably make deals with both sides much like Bill did.
But Trump would be embarrassing to the country imo. I just could never vote for someone that actually said he's well endowed during a debate for President.

[Doc]

I was a Rubio fan and after the last couple debates and few weeks of campaigning have changed. Odds are I'll be voting for Kasich on March 15 in the FL primary. Don't expect it to make much difference though.


Trump could be embarrassing to the country but IMO no more than a President who gets called before congress for lying about getting a hummer in the oval office or one who tries to cover up for a break in of the other parties national headquarters............or one who should be indicted for any of a number of crimes.

As for his reference for this no problems down there comment, IMO it wasn't much different than Clinton (Bill) talking about his exploits in the back of his El Camino/astroturf.

[MickintheHam]

I was a Rubio fan and after the last couple debates and few weeks of campaigning have changed. Odds are I'll be voting for Kasich on March 15 in the FL primary. Don't expect it to make much difference though.


Trump could be embarrassing to the country but IMO no more than a President who gets called before congress for lying about getting a hummer in the oval office or one who tries to cover up for a break in of the other parties national headquarters............or one who should be indicted for any of a number of crimes.

As for his reference for this no problems down there comment, IMO it wasn't much different than Clinton (Bill) talking about his exploits in the back of his El Camino/astroturf.
So what really changed? Are you now self conscious about the size of your hands?

[Doc]

So what really changed? Are you now self conscious about the size of your hands?

The childish behavior. I thought he was above that.

[ukpumacat]

The childish behavior. I thought he was above that.

Like I said earlier, that was a suicide mission for Rubio. To take Trump out (or try) he would have to take himself down as well. He did, and now we will see if it works. If it does, it's Cruz who will benefit imo.
People didn't make a big enough deal during Super Tuesday about Trump underperforming. He won a lot of states but almost across the board his numbers were less than the polls.

[Doc]

So what really changed? Are you now self conscious about the size of your hands?

Is not the size of the hands but the magic in the fingers.

[KSRBEvans]

Chicago.

Hope I'm wrong, but I think this is just the beginning.

[CitizenBBN]

Chicago.

Hope I'm wrong, but I think this is just the beginning.

Supporters of a socialist proud they repressed the democratic process and free speech and association.

I'm sure that fact is utterly lost on them. Fools.

[suncat05]

That's because they believe that the only opinion that matters is theirs. They do not care who they hurt, whose rights they violate, only that they get to make the choices for everyone else........and that is ultimately what it is all about. They want to tell everyone else what to do "because we know what's best for everyone".........

[KeithKSR]

Supporters of a socialist proud they repressed the democratic process and free speech and association.

I'm sure that fact is utterly lost on them. Fools.

moveon.org should be held accountable, charge the leaders with inciting a riot, Justice department needs to charge them with civil rights violations.

[CitizenBBN]

Chicago.

Hope I'm wrong, but I think this is just the beginning.

You were right.

This will backfire. Americans have a strong sense of fair play, and even those who dislike Trump will see that he has a right to conduct his campaign and say his piece.

They're going to create a certain sympathy for Trump he'd never get for himself. It won't be a tidal wave, but it will happen IMO. Shouting someone down isn't the American way.

[StuBleedsBlue2]

Trump's 1st amendment rights weren't violated. He CHOSE to cancel the event. Chicago police and campus security did NOT advise Trump to cancel, as he has said many times. They specifically told them the protesters were under control, which they were until the announcement of the cancellation. This was all a ploy for Trump to turn himself into a 1st amendment advocate, to further solidify his support, especially as his momentum was starting to slow.

The other Republican candidates absolutely had the correct reaction, but I'm surprised none of them picked up on this well-planned, intentional outcome. The protesters were well organized(not really sure why that's wrong), but Trump was even more prepared.

[Catonahottinroof]

Disrupting or impeding an event in which the Secret Service provides the protection is a federal crime. For all the whining protestors are doing, the joke is on them in this instance.

[KSRBEvans]

I'm thinking of going 3rd party this time around. Looking at one of these:

http://i.imgur.com/LXhpUUj.jpg

http://rlv.zcache.ca/gozer_zuul_2016_bumper_sticker-r6121c7c09bf74d8fad57b19da67eae28_v9wht_8byvr_512. jpg

[Darrell KSR]

I continue to be stunned at the choices we make as a nation of free peoples.

[CitizenBBN]

I continue to be stunned at the choices we make as a nation of free peoples.

Most people can't separate the ideas of individual liberty from democracy, but the truth is that individual liberty works wonderfully, but democracy really doesn't live up to the hype. it's a deeply flawed system that for a variety of reasons basically pushes us to electing some of the very least qualified and ethical people possible.

Part of it is that honestly not everyone should vote. Not a popular opinion but it's the truth. With rights come responsibilities, in this case the responsibility to have a basic understanding of the nation's structure and needs, yet a huge percentage of Americans can't even name the three branches of government. Also see the video of the guy who went on college campuses getting names on a petition to repeal the First Amendment so people could have "safe spaces" free from ideas they don't like. Sorry, those people shouldn't be voting, or operating heavy machinery, or really taking up perfectly good air for the rest of us.

The broader part is that we unloosed the purse strings of government and as Ben Franklin knew, once people found out they could vote themselves money the system was doomed. When the federal government did very little they had very little power so they were not worth bribing and they couldn't roll enough barrels and raise enough pork to do much damage to the nation as a whole. Now that they control every aspect of everything we do every day without any end in sight (hell guys, they regulate the size and font type of every street sign in America now from Washington, seriously), the level of corruption (both input and output) has gone insane. The input corruption of lobbying and buying politicians is clear (Hillary didnt' get $650K for one speech bc of her oratorical skill), but the output corruption of individual welfare, corporate welfare and massive spending in every direction from health care to tobacco research is bankrupting us.

Yet voters make decisions based on short term goals and personal desires and needs and ideologies they barely can spell much less understand. They have a limited or no understanding of the issues, take no time to find out about them, and believe the most absurd sound bite reduced nonsense as gospel fact. that's not all voters of course, but its a big percentage of them. More people know the three judges on American Idol than they do judges on SCOTUS, or for that matter the Vice President or Senate Majority Leader or House Speaker, etc.

Individually people aren't all stupid, there's a lot of street smarts out there, but at the level of elections we are talking about mob mentality and groupthink and those are incredibly stupid and short sighted and self interested. The same basic organic process that leads to normal people burning cars b/c their sports team won also governs a lot of political outcomes. Not quite as bad, it's a longer process, but there is a lot of herd mentality to it.

Trump is a protest vote, and honestly as I see a lot of the behavior around me I get that frustration. ICE released 19,000 illegal aliens last year who were convicted of crimes instead of deporting them. Of those released they totaled 64,197 criminal convictions between them. Over 12,000 of those were DUIs, and 208 were freakin' MURDERERS.

The best part is the head of ICE was defending them b/c the year before they released 25,000 illegals who should have been deported, so they're getting tougher on things.

When you see that kind of thinking, and immigration is just one sliver of a vast movement towards stupidity the likes of which I cannot fathom, from "safe spaces" and "microaggressions" to having a democratic socialist winning primary elections, I totally get the reaction. I really do.

The sad part isn't that people and Republicans in particular are completely fed up with party politics and the direction of the nation. The sad part is the only person to step in and fill the leadership void for that group was Trump.

But I admit as much as I know the flaws in the man and as much as I have issue with them, I have warmed to it some b/c like the rest I really do relish the idea of putting a massive monkey wrench in the Washington beltway machinations.

[CitizenBBN]

BTW, that frustration isn't limited to immigration. That's an issue Trump took up, and it's an issue IMO, but personally I'd have picked the runaway welfare state, runaway regulation and what has to be the most limp and ineffectual foreign policy since the US began having a foreign policy of any note with the Monroe Doctrine.

Health care is another good choice. Just call that one like it is. We have already quasi-socialized medicine since the 60s and the result is the same thing you get every single time you socialize and governmentize anything: runaway costs and lower service levels. There's a shocker.

[Darrell KSR]

5518

[KSRBEvans]

--UK loses in the Round of 32
--Reds will lose at least 100
--UK Football...'nuff said
--Hillary/Trump election

On a 0-10 Suckitude scale, 2016 is on pace to hit about a 9.8.

[MickintheHam]

Never have I been more depressed over an election. I have been actively interested and involved in presidential elections since I went to the polls with my mother and wore an "I Like Ike" button. I actively worked on the Goldwater campaign in Kentucky. Since then I have voted for Nixon, McGovern, Carter, Reagan, Bush41, Dole, Bush 43, McCain, and Romney. That's quite a collection of candidates. Other than the McGovern vote, I voted for the more conservative candidate or the candidate I felt supported individual liberty. (McGovern was purely a war protest vote and a vote against Nixon of whom I grew very leery).

But, I may not vote in the Presidential election at all this year. That doesn't mean I won't vote. I just won't vote for the President. The two presumptive nominees are a complete embarrassment. Neither has the character to hold public office. I doubt either could convince me otherwise. The only way I can see voting is if justice is served, Hillary is indicted and there is a moderate democrat waiting in the wings. But one thing I have learned with the office's incumbent, even an incompetent person can serve in the Oval Office for 8 years.

[suncat05]

Trump vs Clinton..........in my mind, once again we are faced with choosing the lesser of two evils.........no real good choice here.